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Steve Sailer

Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« on: March 04, 2003, 05:47:14 PM »
Rees Jones' name comes up all the time on CGA, but his brother Robert Trent Jones Jr. is seldom discussed. I had a chance Friday to tour the back nine of his Rancho San Marcos course on the beautiful north side of the Santa Ynez mountains above Santa Barbara (in Southern California, north slopes are always greener and more wooded than the sun blasted south slopes).

I was wondering what the assembled experts thought of his courses? My only impression is that his strong suit seems to be getting courses built in gorgeous Pacific Rim areas like The Prince on Kauai, Spanish Bay, Squaw Valley, and the like where others might be permanently stymied by environmental restrictions. On the other hand, these courses might tend to come out too narrow and difficult.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2003, 07:42:34 PM »
Steve -- I've had the pleasure of playing RSM in a group ahead of Michael Jordan -- and then another time with Bobby (RTJ II). Both rounds were pleasurable...not only as a result of the course, but also the company and ambiance.

This course is charming, save a hole or two on the back where environmental constraints played havoc. I am not enamoured with a few other holes -- but that is "par" for any course. (There are two holes at CPC that I am not pleased about, but please don't tell anyone.)

Bobby is a very thoughtful designer and his thoughtfulness has rubbed off on those he has had under his wing. I do not like all the courses of any designer, to be sure. But RSM is one I believe is very playable and fun. It also takes advantage of the site and is a truly entertaining routing.

Did you note the fire pits on each par-3? A remarkable idea and one I hope to duplicate one day. What better "warmness" than to arrive at a par-3 early on a crisp morning and be comforted by the sounds and warmth of a crackling fire?



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim Sweeney

Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2003, 07:57:16 PM »
I can name only three RTJJr courses I've played, all open to the public.

We read quite a bit about Spanish Bay on this site. It seems to suffer a little due to its proximity to its notable neighbors.

Then there's Poppy Hills. I will go no farther.

He designed a course half way between Albuquerque and Santa Fe, NM called Cochiti Lake, on the Cochiti Indian reservation. I really have fun on this course. He uses the property's canyons and arroyos to create elevation changes and interesting, but manageable, carries. The course is open in some spots, very tight in others. Its not long, and made even shorter by the 6000 ft. or so elevation, but you will use all your clubs and a variety of shots. The two main obstacles are wind and rattle snakes. (Be really careful about going into the desert to retreive wayward balls!) One downer- lot's of tourist groups from Santa Fe hotels, and often a 5-6 hr. round. Despite a few good elevation changes between holes, it is very walkable.

As an aside, probably because of the elevations, It seems that al the new courses in New Mexico (Paa-Ko Ridge, Las Campanas, Links de Santa Fe, and the new Hilton Resort outside Albuquerque) are all 7500+ yds. Makes ol' UNM South's 7200 yds (Red Lawrence, 1965) seem puny.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andrew_Roberts

Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2003, 08:34:20 PM »
I believe RTJ2 does not get talked a lot on this website is because he is not a great or bad designer.  I have played Poipu and Princeville and neither are bad or great designs.  He seems to make good designs but very few if any that the regulars of this website will say is a must see.  And one reason he does not get bashed like his brother is probably because he doesn't get the press like his Open Doctor brother does.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2003, 08:40:14 PM »
Andrew -- Of course, "bad" can mean "good", just as "great" can, in the context of  "oh, great...", mean "bad". I'm certain you can say a designer is "not great or bad", but I'm not certain it means too much without discussing a lot more of their work than just a small percentage of what they have created. And, I'm not defending anyone -- so consider my comments as a general reply.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

CHrisB

Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2003, 10:13:38 PM »
I've played 7 RTJ Jr courses:
Poppy Hills GC
Princeville GC (Prince)
Princeville Makai GC
Glencoe G&CC (Forest) in Calgary, AB, Canada
Mill Creek CC in Salado, TX
TPC at Los Colinas
Links at Spanish Bay

In my opinion, they are all above average courses (with Mill Creek more average) that fall short of truly great, but are very enjoyable to play nonetheless.  I especially enjoyed Princeville (Prince), Spanish Bay, Poppy Hills and TPC Las Colinas.

Off the top of my head, my favorite RTJ Jr. holes are par 5's: #15 at Princeville (Prince) with great use of canyons and a single greenside bunker for strategy, #14 at Spanish Bay tumbling toward the ocean with excellent fairway bunkering for the 2nd shot, #9 on Mill Creek (Creek 1 nine) with green tucked around a corner angling away from the approach, and #9 and #18 at Poppy Hills, which the pros complain about but I found fun as well (#10 was another fun one).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2003, 04:46:23 AM »
As a member at a club boasting an RTJ Jr course, ( The National, Cape Schanck, Australia, opened 1988 ), I feel a certain obligation to post here.  I’ve played several RTJ Jr courses (almost exclusively in the USA), in addition to his work at my club. In this post, I’ll refer solely to his work at The National.  For those interested, I’m in the middle of an essay on the course, which will hopefully find it’s way onto the My Home Course page here at GCA.)

The land on which Trent Jones Jr’s course at Cape Schanck is situated, is grand to say the least. (Bass Strait, which separates Tasmania from the Australian mainland, is but a quarter mile away).  It had been lying under a thick coverage of tea-trees and Moonah trees, prior to construction. The task of finding a course among the thick vegetation must have been quite difficult. When playing, I never cease to be amazed at how RTJ Jr did what he did in mapping out the course. The topography of the land is dramatic in parts, with broad sweeping valleys, and some abrupt peaks and climbs. Some designers would have really struggled to do as good a job, over some segments of the land.  

The National Old (as it is now known, courtesy of recent construction of two additional courses on the property) is a stunningly beautiful course. Many teeing grounds and greensites afford breathtaking views of the entire Mornington Peninsula. RTJ Jr has carefully maximized access to such stunning scenery with course routing and other design facets, while designing a course where the quality and integrity of the game is not compromised.

At The National, Robert Trent Jones Jr has designed a course which a past club captain once referred to as “a dramatic, difficult son-of-a-bitch”. The course is subject to winds, which are often wildly variable in intensity and direction, during a four-hour round.  

It boasts a wonderful, challenging, and soundly blended group of par 3’s. Par 5’s are solid, interesting, and provide plenty of strategy, with all reachable in two, with the right wind, and two good shots. The collection of 4’s is very strong.  Great dog-leg holes, short two-shotters, as well as longer par fours, demanding exacting play. Combined, all 18 holes provide tremendous challenges, thrills, and great fun. A vast array of shots is called for during the journey, and each hole is enjoyable, and different in character. The 90-minute drive to the course from the city of Melbourne quickly passes, when the mind wanders through what shots will be played later that day.

The bunkering is grand and befits such a dramatic and expansive site. The course plays tough but fair.  Driving zones are deceptively wide. Skilled short games are needed with missed greens. RTJ Jr has expressed his love of the aussie spirit, and our thirst for a sporting challenge. This is captured this within his work at Cape Schanck.

Some detractors identify RTJ Jr’s penchant for steep and unnatural looking ridges within some of his putting surfaces, so as to make ‘greens within greens’ within some shorter / easier holes. I appreciate the negativity here (to some extent).  Critics will be glad to see the ridges have softened a touch through the last 15 years. Additionally, green surfaces have been maintained so as to make the putting less hair-raising.

In trying to sum up RTJ Jr’s work as a designer, and not merely describe the product of a beautiful site, and a host of combined factors, I’m reminded of a friend’s oft-used saying - “there’s not a weak hole out there”.  If this course were in America, you guys would rave about it.  I am completely comfortable in my objective assessment of this course, despite the obvious link to my home club. No serious golfing trip to Melbourne is complete, without a visit to The National.  It is home to one of RTJ Jr’s finest efforts, and one upon which any designer could proudly hang their hat.

Matthew
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Richard Wax

Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2003, 08:09:24 AM »
I had the pleasure opf working with Bob Jones from the Caribbean to India in the '80's and '90's and can safely say that no other designer can look back on such a rich contribution to the game as Bob can. His courses in Finland, Germany, Italy, Spain, England, Portugal, Barbados, Nevis, Kashmir, Moscow and six in France are all excellent playing experiences.

The course he co-designed with his Father at the Prince de Provence near St Tropez is my own personal favourite. When I'm asked where I'd like to find myself teeing it up, that would be my answer due to the peacefulness of the land and the quality of the design.

The great aspect of his work is that it is not predictable. every site received fresh thoughts and appreciation. They are all rated highly on the respected Peugeot Golf Guide.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2003, 03:20:50 PM »
We had some discussion of RTJ II's courses about a year ago. Click here for the link:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1017606669

If you look at it, RTJ II/Jr. has done an amazing number of courses worldwide, maybe the most prolific designer in modern history?

I've played the following RTJ II courses:

Dove Valley Ranch (AZ)
Arrowhead (CO)
Beaver Creek (CO)
Keystone Ranch (CO)
Weston Hills (FlA)
Las Colinas (TX)
Desert Dunes (CA) (Just this past weekend)
Spanish Bay (CA)
Cabo Real (Mexico)

My conclusion is like Chris B's above--solid but unspectacular, middle of the Doak scale courses, some really good holes, some average holes, nothing too exciting either routing wise or design wise.  My favorite course of those I've played is Dove Valley Ranch, probably the newest of the ones I've played--the rest were 1980s courses I think. The back nine at Dove Valley in particular was well done, routed through a lower barranca-and tree-lined area with several strong holes. The other courses I played left me thinking "This could have been better."

He also gets some pretty damn scenic sites that's for sure... :)

All the Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Lynn Shackelford

Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2003, 03:47:47 PM »
Matthew M.
Thanks for the comments about your course in Australia.  Do you know who the design assoicate was?  I think with RTJ Jr. designs it is most important.  My assessment is that he has received more great sites around the world in the last 25 years than anyone.  I think some of the work on these great sites is disappointing.  The closest example to me is Rancho San Marcos.  The site is a B+.  The course is a C.  The original owners get an F (flunked), as in bankruptcy.  They said RTJ just kept on spending their money.  They had no chance when the course opend.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2003, 04:02:10 PM »
RTJ II's work should get a lot of viewing as his Bridges at Rancho Santa Fe will host this year' Tigerfest Battle on July 28th. Tips out at 6900+.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2003, 07:52:06 PM »

Quote
Matthew M.
Thanks for the comments about your course in Australia.  Do you know who the design assoicate was?  I think with RTJ Jr. designs it is most important...  

Lynn,

From memory, George Munn worked closely with RTJ Jr on The National. I'll go back to our club's historian and see if I can get a 100% positive answer.

Hope this helps.

Matthew
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2003, 08:05:51 PM »
My sense of RTJ2 is that he took a while to learn how to design and that his best work came in the mid-1980s-1990s, when he wisely had assembled what was then perhaps the strongest design team in the business - Gary Lynn, Bruce Charlton, Don Knott and Kyle Phillips.  It's not at all a knock to have built up such a team - it's a virtue to surround yourself with talented people.

Before that, I get the sense RTJ2 was learning the trade, and in the process he worked on an amazing number of spectacular Western sites in the US that he didn't fully utilize as he would later in his career.

I've played some very solid RTJ2 courses out there that don't get enough credit and that are enjoyable if not necessarily overwhelming, but surely interesting and worth playing again:

-Spanish Bay, Cal. (despite the obvious environmental constraints)
-Granite Bay, Cal.
-Serrano, Cal.
-Eagle Point, Ore.
-Whistler, B.C. (tough site with a lot of uphill)
-University Ridge, Wisc. (one of 5 best univ. courses in US)
-Wedgewood, Ohio (overlooked in Columbus but very solid)
-Highland Springs, Mo.
-Chenal, Ark.
-Long Island National, NY
-Windsor Polo Club, Fla. (very underrated in Vero Beach)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2003, 08:27:38 PM »
The team has certainly worked with some incredibly severe sites, to good success in my mind.

To call the land that the Prince course in Hawaii is built on rugged, would be a major understatement. Similar to Bridges, of which the back nine is reminiscent at times of the Prince.

What is amazing is that in seeing what is considered his best work in North America, I feel I have not done him justice. As many have noted, some of his best courses are dotted elsewhere on the globe.

I certainly would seek out his courses, as while some may not be groundbreaking, I have yet to see one that is disappointing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2003, 08:46:15 PM »
Walea Gold is a course I find very interestingJr. doesn't seem so enamored with uphill holes as his father was.I can't pinpoint exactly why,but Jr's fairway bunkering is appealing.It frames the hole without being just eye candy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2003, 10:07:37 PM »
I believe you mean Wailea. And, while the Gold Course there is good, its worst contribution was the unearthing of the Orange Course by Arthur Jack Snyder. Snyder's Blue lives on, but I've always felt the creation of the Gold and Emerald was at a cost that should not have been paid. (But, then again, I learned from Snyder...so am biased to be sure!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2003, 11:04:08 PM »
I had an interesting conversation this evening at the park where my boys were playing. There was another father there and we got to talking about golf and it turns out this guy used to work for RTJ II. One course Jones did is near here called Adobe Creek, and it has a few very good golf holes. It turns out Kyle Phillips was the on site guy at Adobe, so I'm looking forward to finding out who did what there in future conversations with this new acquaintance.

Princeville Prince is one of the best courses in Hawaii in my book, there were a few pedestrian holes there, but for the most part it is a very fun and challenging course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2003, 05:48:32 AM »
I would rate Long Island National a 5 on the Doak scale.



It was set  up to be a public Shinnecock, but it reminds you much more of Atlantic (in a good way, I like Atlantic  :o). A couple of complaints where I think he "overdid" the course are:

#12 - Too much target golf on this hole for me, too many lakes pinching in the landing area, and when the wind blows, that green is awfully shallow.

#13 - I think there is room in golf for greens that slope away from you, but not on this hole, where it is an uphill shot that is partially blind. The course was a flat farm, so the the uphill was manufactured. Maybe it is just me, but I can't hold that green. I have tried to roll a shot on but that does not work either.

Favorite holes are:

# 6 - 190 yards downhill Par 3 hitting back into the woods with a two-tiered green,

# 10 - With no wind, a reachable Par 5, with the prevailing wind, not reachable.

# 11 - Par 3 165 (?) Lake fronting a green with a severe slope also fronting the green

In general, some interesting Par 3 and 5 holes and weaker Par 4's.

Don Knott was the on-site guy for RTJ and has since broken out on his own (see http://www.knottlinn.com/html/home.html). I was told by the developer that RTJ only visited the site twice, and that he thinks of Don as the real achitect.  (I feel Tommy N  waking up with that statement !!!)
 American Golf who is the manager strongly suggested RTJ as the architect as his father had Fox Hill and Montauk in the area, and his brother had Atlantic, so it would be good for marketing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2003, 12:17:56 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for your comments regarding LIN.  I worked for American Golf and was peripherally involved in the development of the course.  We did recommend Bobby (along with 2 other architects) for the job for 3 reasons: 1) many of us have worked with Bobby and his team in the past and they have always done great work; 2) he had just finished Prairie View in Indy with a similar piece of land and turned out a great result; 3) this would be his first job on the east coast and we were confident he would put extra effort into it.  Don did most of the work, but I was told that Bobby visited the site quite often.  In fact, he's been to the course twice since it opened for minor tweaks.  They did a great job with a difficult piece of land.  It was too small, no grade, and no features other than the trees in the back.

I agree with your comment on 13.  It was a risk and it doesn't work for me.  I haven't found the best way to play it, either.  Maybe WAY left.

I like 12 a lot and it may be my favorite hole.  I think it gives you great options off the tee and the shallow green makes for a big reward if you get aggressive off the tee and thread the needle.  

The par 4's play either very short or very long so they may not be everyone's favorite, but I think they're pretty solid.  The course is difficult to categorize (not links, not really anything) so some people knock it for that, but I think it's a fun course which can be a very good test.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2003, 03:45:25 PM »
SBusch,

I spoke to Don at length when we were going through our process for our project as he was strongly recommended by Bill Gatz. However due to his California location, it was not feasible for our project. Thus my comment should be viewed as a plug for Don and not a shot to RTJ II. As Brad mentioned above, building a good team is a difficult thing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2003, 04:03:11 PM »
We would definitely give high marks to Don for a great product on a marginal site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2003, 04:48:09 PM »
In the Palm Springs area I have always enjoyed RTJ II's Desert Dunes which I think might have won a Best New Public award from GD.

Gary Linn and Don Knott worked on that one but I think they missed a great opportunity to incorporate more of the dunesland into the course. They grassed the entire course and just pushed the dunes to the sides.  

This picture shows some of the dunes that just don't come into play on the course:
http://tinyurl.com/746j
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

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