19th hole

[Don_Mahaffey]

...not the kind you drink in and say I'd have shot great only if...but, what do you think of having a 19th hole for the purpose of renovating one hole at a time? We would like to renovate some holes, but that would require closing down one nine for an extended period and a lot of $$$ all at once. The first hole we would change would involve changing a par 5 to a short, possibly drivable, par 4 and a par 3. The green for the new hole could be built while the present hole is in play and we would then have 19 greens. This would allow us to take a hole out of play and make the improvements while still playing 18 holes. Our 10th hole is a short par three that we would then change to a short game practice area once all the work is done. Neal Meagher can jump in here with specifics as he did the layout for the new holes (BTW Neal, I've gotten preliminary approval to build the green on the creek for the short par 4). If you were playing a course where you had to pass a hole under construction, yet were still able to get in 18, would you have a huge problem, or think it's goofy? The community has responded very positively to our ownership and we are definitely in a honey moon period and we want to get the work done. Any advice?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Don,
If you can't lose the revenues you don't have much choice, you're forced to do as much of the work during the slowest season you have and keep the place open. The 19th hole is a good idea in this case, especially because it will eventually be in service and not just an "extra".

How long do you estimate the honeymoon period to last? If it's a short one then you may want to just bite the bullet and do it all at once, if you can afford it. People do get tired of constant construction.

We lost 30% of our stream during a season that a construction project affected our course, even though we were able to keep all the holes open. We recovered 1/2 of it the next year and hopefully the other half will show up this year.

[Joe Hancock]

Don,

Interesting concept, and it might be one I borrow in the future.

You have 6 months under your belt with your course and its patrons. How do you think they will react to this? Are they the stubborn, fight every change type of group? Or are they a  group who seems to think everything needs change now that you've provided a glimpse(along with Neal) of what the place CAN be?

BTW, how much of the future work are you bringing Neal in on? Are you doing any of the new stuff yourself?

Joe

[A_Clay_Man]

Don- Glad to hear the sex is good! (honeymoon sex that is)
Couple of my thoughts were: Great idea! but as you kept splain'in, the problem becomes much more complicated, don't it?

The only time I played Quail lodge, one of it's best holes (not that I'd know) was under construction. Justin and I had to walk what seemed like a mile thru the neighborhood streets to get to the seventh tee. It was disappointing. So, my thought would be to try to minimize, if possible, the walk for the real golfer, the walker. It is probably easy for some managers and/or principles to ignore the walker due to the profitability of the cart but I see this attitude as alienating the real core group.
The only other idea is to cop, up front, to the news of the construction and make sure that the green fee will be reduce one eighteenth until the fix is finished.

BUt I say if the routing can be least interupted, a nineteenth hole, could be a cool feature long after its reason for being has past.

[Forrest Richardson]

A tried and true solution. We are in the midst of a 19-hole course. Uses of the short 19th are:

-- For maintenance purposes, as you suggest
-- As a bonus hole (bet hole)
-- Also as an alternate green for No. 18; creates a option course
-- And for night play below a cascade of terraces off the clubhouse

[Bill_McBride]

Forrest's 19th hole sounds like a fun asset!  Do you play it on the way into the clubhouse after the 18th green, or is out of the way of finishing traffic?  I've always thought the bonus or bet settling 19th short hole would be a lot of fun.

[Forrest Richardson]

It's 120-yards and goes left after the "standard" 18th, which is a par-5. There are three courses that can be played:

A -- Use "standard" No. 18 and the 19th is a bonus hole

B -- The 19th green becomes an alternate green for No. 18; in this configuration the bonus hole is used up by the alternate No. 18 which plays over some dunes and hollows to a partially hidden green

C -- There is an alternate fairway for No. 10 (a par-4) which plays to No. 11's green (a par-3); when this alternate fairway is put in play the bonus hole becomes No. 18 (hope that makes sense...sorry I am bad a being able to post diagrams, so this written account will have to suffice.)

[Brian Phillips]

Loch Lomond has a 19th hole.

Brian

[Neal_Meagher]

The issue of having a 19th or alternate hole is only part of the story here; there are many of them elsewhere as several have already mentioned here.

The real story is that Don is one of the rare owners who is willing to lose yardage AND a par digit to make the course more fun to play.  Currently, his first three holes are:

No. 1     -      142 yards       -        Par 3
No. 2     -      335 yards       -        Par 4
No. 3     -      516 yards       -        Par 5

Total             993 yards       -            12

By making the existing first hole into a practice green the existing second hole becomes No. 10 after flipping the nines.  Then, as he discussed above, the existing third hole is split into a real cool driveable (by some) par 4 along the crook of a large creek with the second part of the hole being occupied by a new par 3 to the existing par 5's greensite.  Thus, the new yardages would be:

No. 10      -     345 yards      -        Par 4
No. 11      -     310 yards      -        Par 4
No. 12      -     160 yards      -        Par 3

Total              815 yards      -          11

By constructing the new green for the future 11th hole 310 yards (265 straight carry over the creek), it will reside to the left side of the existing par 5, just beyond and 25 yards left of the existing fairway.  After all other work is done on the course, some additional fairway work will be done to complete this new short par 4.  But, in the meantime, it can act on its own to make up the difference while other holes are under the knife.

If all of this sounds confusing, I apologize but have asked Tommy to help me post a plan sketch that will suffice to explain.

And to answer JHancock's question, Don and I are working with the former superintendent from this very course who is now doing construction only.  With our direction and his experience and ability to want to try new things, we are having a blast with this as the integrity of the greens is one of the only avenues we have to sex up the place.  It is in a flood plain and as such is very flat with severe restrictions on filling.

I am sure that his patrons would probably be happier than most to see a near constant disruption of construction equipment, as it means SOMETHING is being done.  Previously, the place was the equivalent of the formerly nice house down the street that has gone to hell for the past 30 years since the old crazy ladie's husband passed away.  Just hacking down the weeds and fertilizing has made a big difference there.  It is really unfortunate when golf courses are let go as badly as that one was.  But, I should add, that Don has done an incredible job turning it around in short order.



So, while most public course owners, and certainly private club members cringe at ongoing construction, I think these people know that it means that, finally, some positive things are happening there.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Having the 19th is just a win-win situation for all, including the die-hard true customers who are going to be spending a lot of time on their course. (Notice how I say their because this is the ultimate compliment to an owner--repeat business!. When a customer wants to spend all of his time at the course, he is going to treat it as if it was his very own.)

Neal, I really like the 11th, but make sure you tie-in that left fairway bunker to the right greenside bunker, so that from the tee, it looks like one wide cross bunker. That would mean in perspective, making the fairway bunker look slightly bigger then normal and the greenside bunker slightly smaller, and then making them look like they are all one. It would of course create total deception!

Amarillo here we come!

[Joe Hancock]

Neal,

Thanks for your reply. It sounds like a good fit amongst the three of you.

Joe

[Don_Mahaffey]

Neal,
Actually, in this case we may do all the dirt work ourselves. One of the advantages of a 19th hole is the time factor, we wont feel as rushed as if we had another hole out of play. I also feel like it will be more cost effective and allow us to spend the time to do the detail work we all like here. It's really an means to an end, as the third hole (future #11 and #12) isn't really that bad of a hole, but there are two holes ahead, the 5th and 6th, that need serious work. The 19th hole will let us work on those holes and keep 18 in play. Thanks for the helping Tommy!!! When you come out to see the Red Raider Course, remember we're only an hour and a half north. I think you'll enjoy our three new greens and new putting green. Neal I don't know how you would describe #4, but now that it has grass and the covers are off, it's looking pretty wild. Take care, Don

[Don_Mahaffey]

Neal listed some yardages in his post. Here are all the yardages assuming the proposed work gets done.

1-par 4 406
2-par 3 145
3-par 5 585
4-par 4 434
5-par 3 225
6-par 5 497
7-par 4 451
8-par 4 405
9-par 4 430
par 36 3,578

10-par 4 345
11-par 4 310
12-par 3 160
13-par 3 184
14-par 5 549
15-par 4 396
16-par 3 199
17-par 5 591
18-par 4 455
par 35 3,189

Par 71 6,767

On the front 9 play crosses the creek 10 times with the creek hard to the front of the greens on 5 & 6.

As you saw on Tommy's posting the creek runs along the left side on the first 4 holes on the back. Both par 5's on the back play up hill about 50 ft. It's never going to be ranked by anyone, but it's a fun course with a good mix of holes.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Don,
Just by the fact it is going to be ranked is more then enough reason to see it! I look forward to the 1st Annual Amarillo Cup!--Two rounds on Red Raider and two rounds on your course. Schedule it for the warmest part of the year, and another round of the tournament is held at the steakhouse in Amarillo that cooks that 72 ouncer, which if you eat the whole thing, you get it for free. For ever ounce you eat, that many strokes comes off your score!

I'll win for sure!

No handicap will be given to Neal either. (At the restaurant)

[RJ_Daley]

Don, would it be possible that you could snap a few pictures of the hole corridors now, before you go to work on this?  I would be very interested to see it from the perspective of the tee and turning point in the LZ of the old par 5, then from the far left wash towards the new green of the short par 4 where the elevation is indicated at 3496.7, and finally from the new tee to the new par 3.  Perhaps Tommy could post them if you could take them...?