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danielfaleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 1945
« on: March 04, 2003, 07:48:49 PM »
No particular order:

Sand Hills
Bandon Dunes/Pacific Dunes
Shadow Creek
TPC at Sawgrass
Ocean Course, Kiawah
Links of North Dakota
Black Diamond
Loch Lomond (Sco.)
Sporting Club Berlin (Ger.)
Les Bordes (Fra.)
Cabo del Sol (Mex)
Ballyliffin Glashedy (Ire.)

There.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2003, 07:57:11 PM »
Now that is bias!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2003, 08:00:31 PM »
I think at least 3-4 more Pete Dye courses would have to contend.

Links of N.D. must be special.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2003, 08:08:45 PM »
Oh Please...

 That list does grave injustice to the likes of Friars Head, Kingsbarn, Whistling Straits and others....and any inclusion of anything French just makes me puke...other than that I have no opinions!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

TEPaul

Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2003, 08:08:57 PM »
Daniel:

Friar's Head alone should realistically blow away at least 3/4 of those golf courses, probably more.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2003, 08:10:47 PM »
i don't know about that dude
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

TEPaul

Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2003, 08:15:00 PM »
Matt:

Ok, I'll rephrase it;

ABSOLUTELY blow away 3/4 of those.......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2003, 08:32:59 PM »
Tom,
my comment wasn't directed at you....it was directed at the topic starter's list..sorry for the discrepancy  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

RobertO4653

Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2003, 09:05:24 PM »
You guys forgot about a hidden gem in central oregon called

ASPEN LAKES

I have played all over, and this course does not have a bad hole not one, and the flow is fantastic.
445345434 543443445 Now that is a routing!

This should be fun the responses I get from this one but I will defend my statement like a gentleman

Robert Overdorf (hey guys it is easy to use our name right golfweekrater)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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danielfaleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2003, 10:41:42 PM »
I like Friar's Head, but Sand Hills better (played both.)

Les Bordes is an incredible course, "Winner of Golfjournal's 2001 Travel Oscar for Best European Golf Course."

Pete Dye may have built many golf courses where one can play great golf but he has only built three great golf courses, listed above (Whistling Straits' fairways are silly.) Hey, three outta' thirteen ain't bad...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2003, 10:51:08 PM »
Does Turnberry qualify ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2003, 10:51:33 PM »
danielfaleman,

I have never played Whistling Straits.  I have heard mostly great things about it.  Could you explain what you mean when you say their fairways are "silly"?  I am curious as to what makes them silly.



Everybody else,

Kingsbarns is definitely on my list.  I haven't played most of the ones listed so I can't comment too much on them.  I think PGA West Stadium could possibly be added to this list as well.  

I wonder if Rustic Canyon or some other brand new courses would make this list 10 years from now.  Any comments on that?

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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#nowhitebelt

danielfaleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2003, 11:02:09 PM »
The fairways at Whistling Straits are deliberately unfair, meaning that they are manipulated to hinder shot making with the driver, in this case on the 4's, mound/dune excess. Here's a link to the PGA site previewing the 2004 Championship tournament, checkout the picture of Hole No. One, and continue:

http://www.pga.com/tour/pgaofamerica/championship2004/course/straits1.html


"Does Turnberry qualify ?" Turnberry's Ailsa, in Strathclyde, Scotland predates 1945; I don't care for the new Kintyre course there.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2003, 11:29:33 PM »
"Turnberry's Ailsa, in Strathclyde, Scotland predates 1945" ?

Mackenzie Ross re-built Ailsa in 1946, after the land was used for airplanes during the war. Does anybody know how much of Ailsa is new (as of 1946), and how much recovered ? I can't find the answer at their website.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2003, 11:33:42 PM »
danielfaleman,

Thanks for the link to that site.  I am in the PGA and I din't even now that existed!!!  Anyway, I can see a lot of mounding and bumps and rolls in the pictures but I have never been there so it's hard for me to really comment.

Some of the pictures looked like the fairways were rather flat but I could just be seeing the pistures incorrectly.  I'll have to play there and see for myself.

I guess my only other comment would be that most of the courses that I call my favorites have rolling or bumpy and mounded fairways.  It actually makes the tee shots more strategic in my opinion.  Bringing shots in with different shape or height is usually required and I tend to like that.  But that is just my preference and in regards to Whistling Straits I'll have to play it to judge.

Thank you for your comments and welcome to the website.

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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#nowhitebelt

danielfaleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2003, 11:44:52 PM »
Turnberry: established 1906; golf was played there prior to it being an airfield in WWII, BUT, if one considers the current Ailsa course post War, then it WOULD definitely be on my list. I have played there several times and I love it of course. There are many changes due to that property... condos (*shudder*), and the hotel is now managed by Westin.

http://scotland-golf-tours.co.uk/Courses/Strathclyde/turnberry_hotel_turnberry.htm
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Jack Marr

Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2003, 02:14:32 AM »
From my own perspective, I would add

European Club

Enniscrone

Waterville

and

Carne

to that list. Although I have my bias...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mitch Hantman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2003, 05:10:50 AM »
I'd like to add The Golf Club in New Albany, OH by Pete Dye.  It could be his best work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy 65

Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2003, 07:02:57 AM »
Les Bordes is very proud of its water (like some Florida courses) and must be tough as hell, judging from its web site description:

"Designed by Robert von Haage at his most inventive, water shimmers on 12 of its 18 holes. An exhilarating challenge even for the best players (the course record is only a stroke under par and is held by Jean Van de Velde) the experience of playing Les Bordes is something any golfer will treasure. At 7,062 yards, par 72 with a slope of 148 you will find Les Bordes as tough and challenging as its reputation suggests."

Must be the Frenchman's course record, eh?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnV

Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2003, 07:50:56 AM »
If you are going back to 1945, how about Peachtree?  I was very impressed with it when I played there last year.  Second or third best course in Georgia according to my friends who live there (some put Cuscowilla above it and some don't.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2003, 08:53:02 AM »
DanielAleman's comments re:  Whisting Straits are true really only for hole #4, which is extremely narrow and slopes pretty severely towards the lakeside junk.  Extremely difficult.  Otherwise, there are some humps and bumps, but that's part of the design.  Why are golfers entitled to flat lies if they hit the wrong part of the fairway?  No. 1 is actually a really fun hole - flirt with junk on the left to get a shorter shot to the green (albeit all carry over junk) or go right and get almost a redan-like second shot to the green, with a hill on the right and a bunker guarding the left part of hte green.  For the PGA, the tee is basically at the end of the putting green.  According to folks on this site, the real problem with the fairways are the drainage basins.

Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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That was one hellacious beaver.

Tim Weiman

Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2003, 09:05:54 AM »
Jeff Goldman:

I've played Whistling Straits four times and agree with your comments about the fairways. Yes, #4 is a very demanding tee shot, but other than that, nothing really stands out as being over the top. The are some examples where shot placement is more important than just launching it out there, but again, nothing really unreasonable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2003, 09:13:34 AM »
Tim,

I forgot the great caveat.  I've never played it in more than a 2 club wind.  In a big wind, I'll bet it can be brutal in the extreme.  If there's no wind for the PGA, I think they'll go low regardless.  If there's wind and the PGA has guts on the set-up, it could be a lot of fun to watch.

Jeff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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That was one hellacious beaver.

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2003, 09:23:17 AM »
I agree with Jeff and Tim.

What holes are the fairways manipulated to be unfair?

The fourth is the only hole that fits your description.

Since you are a relative fan of Pete Dye, what of:
Pete Dye GC
The Golf Club
Blackwolf Run
Harbour Town
Casa de Campo
The Honors

Since you noted Cabo del Sol, what about Muirfield Village?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 19
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2003, 09:44:46 AM »
danielfaleman:

It is good to see you defending your opinion regarding Whistling Straits.  However, do you care to comment on your omission of Friar's Head and Kingsbarns?

How about Prairie Dunes?  It's post 1945?

Interesting you hold Black Diamond in such high esteem.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--
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