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Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« on: March 11, 2003, 05:47:24 AM »
I've noticed that many criticise new golf courses in Ireland in GB because they are too much like American courses. K Club and Mount Juliet are examples.

However, many of the courses some rave about in the U.S. are, obviously, American styled.

What is the objection to these courses being built over here? Is it just that they aren't as good as the ones you have in the states? Can't we have both styles over here?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
John Marr(inan)

THuckaby2

Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2003, 07:19:35 AM »
Jack:

That's a very good question, and I think it comes down to perspective.  Yes, few Americans find much to like about clubs like K Club, Mount Juliet, Druid's Glen, for the exact reason you state:  they are so much like American golf clubs. The key here is we want things to be DIFFERENT over there!  Most of us travel to Ireland for the LINKS, not for parkland courses, as we have plenty of the latter here and literally NONE of the former.  So from the American perspective, as great as those Irish parkland courses might be, they are always gonna get the "ho-hum" response from very many people.

Now obviously from the Irish perspective, great parkland courses are the minority, so REALLY great ones like that are to be celebrated... regardless of what the rest of the world thinks!

I just do believe that it's this myopic American view that causes the "criticisms", that's all.  Heck yeah you can and should have both styles over there... just do try to bear with the myopic Americans!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2003, 07:31:40 AM »
Jack Marr:

I've probably been the person most outspoken about the American influence on golf in Ireland, so I'll do my best to respond.

My concerns are primarily focused on the overall American influence on golf in Ireland, not just on the golf courses. We Americans are exporting higher costs to play the game, slower pace of play and either undermining (or perhaps ignoring) the sensible Irish spirit for how golf should be played.

The cost factor is most evident at a place like The Old Head where green fees crowd out the locals and completely take the "Irishness" out of the place. The Old Head's iron gates are symbolic of the problem screaming at the locals to stay out. John O'Conner has made no effort to reach accomodation with locals either to play golf or simply to go have a picnic. It is as if a national treasure has been taken from the Irish people.

Does O'Conner have every "right" in a free, capitalist system to do what he has done? Of course. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out against the choice he made. I won't claim to know all the details, but my impression is that a guy like Mike Keiser has done a better job in Bandon, Oregon considering local sensitivities than O'Conner has done. It is about balance and in my view O'Conner has failed. Miserably.

I'm no expert on the economics of the golf industry, but it does seem we Americans have taken the high end stuff too far. The game has just become too expensive for many people. That lesson should be clear. We shouldn't be exporting our mistakes to Ireland or any other country - e.g., Australia.

Now the pace of play issue. When I first played golf in Ballybunion it was common to play in less than three hours. The first time I played Royal Country Down it was 2:45 with a stop for lunch at the turn. Contrast this with a discussion I heard a few years ago sitting in the Marine Hotel. It involved a group of Americans debating whether it was possible to play golf in less than five hours.

Are there more people on the golf courses? Yes. Does higher volume usually result in slower play? Yes. Nonetheless, I would say we Americans are part of the problem. Far too often we don't make an effort to move along. We resign ourselves to golf taking all day. We show little consideration for other people on the golf course. It's the "I've paid my green fees" attitude.

Part of this is the American preference for stroke over match play. If we did nothing more than leave that bad habit at home, it would go a long way. But, an additional factor is that with the crowds have come the busloads and with the busloads a tendency for American visitors to stick to themselves rather than mingle and play with locals. Big mistake. It obscures how Irish golf is really more advanced than our own style. It undermines the social aspect of the game. It reduces the likelyhood of forming wonderful long term friendships.

Jack, I remember Ballybunion in the 1980's when unemployment was in the 30-40 percent range and locals struggled to pay off one punt bets if you happened to beat them. Clearly, the influx of American tourists is appreciated. It has been an important part of growing the Irish economy. It has meant a more prosperous life for the Irish people. All well and good.

But, why travel overseas for another MacDonalds? Isn't finding something different what makes the journey so special? Shouldn't Irish golf stand out with it's own character?

Okay. Now the architecture side.

I don't really object to some "American style" golf courses in Ireland, though I certainly wouldn't jump on a plane to see them. My concern is what Paul Daley referred to in his book  Links Golf. I believe Paul used the term "cross polonization" in referece to the blending of different golf styles, a practice that really undermines the uniqueness of any style, especially links golf. An Irish links should be just that. No compromise. No attempt to soften it up. Fun. Quirky. Different.

Just as there is room for some American style golf courses, I still believe there is room for some American architects to build in Ireland, even links style courses. But, developers should be careful and select only those who really understand and appreciate links golf. The firms that want to spend loads of money and move lots of dirt wouldn't get my vote.

Jack, despite my concerns, I remain an unabashed fan of Irish golf committed to making the visit a couple times a year to enjoy the friendships I've been fortunate to make and renew my love affair with the way Irish play golf. My trip a couple weeks ago reminds me of how nice it is to go over in the winter when things are far less crowded and there is time for a pleasant beer or cup of tea. A friend from Ballybunion said, "welcome home" when I arrived reminding me of what you don't find at your typical CCFAD in the States. And where could you have a more pleasant time than a day at Dooks?

My apologies if my response was far too long and somewhat off the subject of your inquiry, but I'll always believe Irish golf is far more than the architecture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

THuckaby2

Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2003, 07:55:01 AM »
Great post, Tim.  I was hoping you'd jump in as if there's a better expert on American golf v. Irish golf than you, well, I want to read what he says!  Good stuff, right on.

Re your last line though... isn't ALL golf "far more than the architecture"??  ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2003, 08:01:08 AM »
Tom Huckaby:

You are absolutely right. All golf is more than just architecture. It is just that the Irish seem to understand that better than we do, at least in my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

THuckaby2

Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2003, 08:07:48 AM »
Well said, Tim.  The Irish do "get" that more than any people on this planet.  'Tis why I love them so and am proud to have that heritage!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_H

Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2003, 08:08:13 AM »
Reading this post brings up a "split personality" issue I have with Scottish golf.  When I look at Loch Lomand as a golf course, I think that its architecture and beauty is very good.  But I don't like it.  Because it's not appropriate.  Because it offends my image of what golf in Scotland should be.  Because it doesn't fit my stereotypes.  But is this bias fair?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2003, 08:30:19 AM »
Jim H:

I think your "bias" is fair. It goes back to Paul Daley's commentary. Why blend everything together? Why obscure differences? Why shouldn't Scottish golf be something different?

As for Loch Lomond, I've heard it is a beautiful place and would like to see it some day. But, I still think the character of Scottish golf a la Western Gailes, for example, should be preserved.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2003, 09:18:43 AM »
Tim/Tom

Thanks for your replies.

I think there should always be a place in Ireland for the type of golf you mention. This type of golf is not foreign to me, so  I don't give its availability a second thought. It' s why if I wanted to play just golf for the rest of my life, I'd never move abroad.

I also enjoy the novelty of the American style courses, but can't compare them to those in the U.S. As you know, the Irish have a very strong connection to the land. Everyone must own some, which is quite different to the norm in the rest of Europe. That's why there's resentment towards places like Old Head. It feels like they are taking something away from us.

There is always room for innovation in golf course architecture, even though some of the early are hard to surpass. However, I would always object to giving links land to the "stylists."

Jack

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
John Marr(inan)

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2003, 09:39:57 AM »
Jack Marr:

I did want to mention one other thing I saw in Ireland a few weeks ago. Dr. Arthur Spring gave me a tour of his new course Castle Island.

Though I won't credit Arthur for building a course that all the world should see, the club is worth a visit if you are in the area. For the grand sum of $1.3 million euros, Arthur built a very credible course on a somewhat difficult site. True, you won't find Friar's Head quality greens or bunker work, but I am very impressed with what Arthur created with so little resources.

I understand the club is near fully suscribed and thanks to the modest cost of building the course - and the minimal, no thrills club house - the club is virtually debt free and members can enjoy affordable golf.

I hope the club does find the resources to gradually make some improvements - the bunker would be my first priority - but I do admire the sensible way members went about things. Castle Island will be played by many folks throughout Ireland as the club will be participating in many exchange days that are common in Ireland.

Again, I won't call Arthur Spring's work world class architecture, but from an overall project and cost point of view, there is something impressive about Castle Island.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2003, 10:57:09 AM »
Tim

Is this in Castle Island in Co Mayo? I know there's an area called Castle Island there. I'll certainly seek it out.

I play in Carne, another low budget course, and am very happy with it. Government grants built it. The course typifies everything you said was good about Irish golf.

Jack
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
John Marr(inan)

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2003, 12:20:46 PM »
Jack Marr:

Castle Island is in Kerry and is about six miles from the Kerry Airport.

I held back mentioning it because on GCA we have an understandable tendency to focus on the world's elite courses. Castle Island doesn't fit into that category. But, again, if you are in the area it is worth seeing just to keep the American trend towards high end, high cost projects in perspective. Arthur Spring and the club founders have demonstrated that you can build an affordable golf course that will satisfy the vast majority of golfers.

P.S. I think the proper spelling is Castleisland - all one word.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Mitch Hantman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2003, 12:54:00 PM »
Tim,

Where is Castle Island?  Tell me more about the course!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2003, 02:04:34 PM »
We played tournaments at all three courses on the European tour and it was horrible to go away from Portmarnock because it was a fantastic course and venue.

Mt Juliet was a decent course but exactly what you would expect in America .The land it is built on meant it was never going to be a traditional Irish course in terms of a links but you would have thought they could have done more to make it feel less 'American'
The other two were just ordinary - at best - golf courses.Most would have hated them whereever they were.

Obviously there was only one reason why the Irish Open moved.Instead of having to pay Portmarnock to come the new courses would actually pay for the tournament.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2003, 02:42:25 PM »
Mitchgolfs:

As for location, the best I can tell you is Castleisland, County Kerry.

Michael Coote is the Manager and his local number is 066-7141709. He can give you directions if you would like to check it out.

In case I haven't made it clear, Castleisland is not the kind of course you jump on a plane to see. A visit only makes sense if you are in the area, have some free time or you really want to see what can be done with a modest budget.

The property is quite hilly, but Arthur Spring managed to route the course in such a way that it is quite walkable. From a construction standpoint, apparently the biggest challenge was drainage. Castleisland is not a sandy seaside location; it is inland and built on land that contained water in many places. Spring solved this by creating ponds in a few places throughout the course and by other means that I'm far from the best guy to describe. All I can say is that the course was quite dry for February, something that can't be said for all inland courses in Ireland.

The greens at Castleisland are almost all multi-tiered. If I could have given Spring any advice it would have been to create a bit more variety. Indeed, when we came across those that didn't fit the pattern, it was quite refreshing. The weakest part of the course was the bunkers. You won't find work the like of C&C, Doak, DeVries, etc., but to his credit Spring made no exaggerated claims. He made clear he would like a chance to improve them in the years ahead.

As for the holes themselves, there is nothing all world, but a nice variety and many that would be quite enjoyable to play, even for someone like Spring who plays on the European Senior Tour.

Check it out if you are in the area and let me know if you agree we Americans could learn something from it. Some may look down on it as not what you travel to Ireland for, but I see it in a different, but positive light.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2003, 02:51:03 PM »
Reading Tim's comments only increases my desire to experience the Irish golf side of my heritage.  I just have to do this soon and off season so I can try to experience that local flavor to whatever extent they'll have me.  The only place I feel similar to what Tim describes is at Wild Horse, for obvious reasons of modest cost for a high quality links style and humble golf enthusiastic local folks and staff.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Americani"z"ed golf in Ireland and GB
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2003, 03:57:33 PM »
I think it's an excellent idea to go off the beaten track when traveling in Ireland. There are lots of courses that never get visited, such as Little Island in Cork, the Grange in Dublin, Esker Hills in Offaly, Coolatin in Wicklow,  Arklow in Wicklow, Carlow GC, Headfort old and new in Kildare, Tulfarris in Kildare, The Curragh in Kildare....

All of these are well worth a visit, especially Arklow, Little Island and Carlow. Only a few would be American style courses...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
John Marr(inan)