The Impregnable Quadrilateral

[Jeff Fortson]

I have heard the term, "Impregnable Quadrilateral", used to describe NGLA, Shinnecock, Maidstone, and Atlantic and their close location to one another.  I guess it means that you can't find a better 4 courses in close proximity anywhere else in the world.  What I am starting this thread for is to ask if Friar's Head either makes this a, "Impregnable Quintet", or does it kick one of the four out and take their place.

I happen to think that it should take the place of Atlantic if such a "name" were to be used to describe a group of strong courses.  Friar's Head definitely would make an, "Impregnable Quadrilateral", much stronger than Atlantic in my opinion.  Atlantic, is a good course and I enjoyed it.  It is a Five Star club that takes care of itself and the course was enjoyable.  However, it isn't a course that I would group with NGLA, Shinnecock, or Maidstone.  

I do think it is hard to beat a rotation of NGLA, Shinnecock, Maidstone, and Friar's Head in relation to their proximity to each other anywhere in the world.  Let me state this better.....   I haven't played any courses that are in close proximity to each other that can beat them.  (and no I haven't played Friar's Head, but so what.  I am 99.9999999999% sure from the pictures I see that I am going to like it)

Your thoughts or comments....?

Jeff F.

[Matthew Mollica]

Jeff -

I've never heard the term used in reference to the courses on Long Island, but it makes sense. They are sensational courses.

Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath, Metropolitan, Commonwealth, Victoria and Yarra Yarra are all in very close proximity in Melbourne's sandbelt here in Australia.

The first few in particular are very, very good. This set of courses is a legitimate contender.

I'm sure that someone in Monterey would like to comment at this time too...

Matthew

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
I know the term was used to describe Bobby Jones' feat but I hadn't heard it used in relation to those courses.

[TEPaul]

It's always been my sense that those traveling to the Eastern end of Long Island looking to play the best make a concerted effort to play Shinnecock, NGLA and Maidstone while they're there. Frankly, I've yet to hear of those travelers not from New York really care to include Atlantic G.C. in that itinerary as dedicatedly as the other three. However, it certainly has been my sense that those same types of outside travelers are now dedicatedly trying to include Friar's Head in that group of three when they make the pilgramage to the Eastern End of Long Island.

[A_Clay_Man]

Are these courses as close in proximity as the ones on the Monterey Peninsula?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jeff,

It's a hell of a drive from Friar's Head to Maidstone.

It could take from one to two hours.

Within a lesser driving diameter you might find some worthy contenders much closer.  Start with GCGC, The Creek, Piping Rock, Bethpage and Meadowbrook.

Pine Valley, Merion, Philadelphia Cricket, ____, ____
I'll let TEPaul fill in the blanks.

[Joel_Stewart]

This thread might be in response to the discussion of the San Francisco quadrilateral, Olympic Lake & Ocean, SFGC, Lake Merced, Harding Park and Cal Club.  That totals 6 which makes it a sex-something???

I'm sure that people in Weschester will have something to say with both courses at Winged Foot, Quaker, Westchester etc.

I have to agree with Pat that Maidstone is pretty far down the road to be put in this group although some could argue that Easthampton, Southampton CC or The Bridge could be included.

[corey miller]

never heard the term before but it seems to have a truly great "impregnable quadrilateral" one would have to have the desire to play all four courses almost equally.

Not having played Atlantic i suspect though that this would not be the case with me though it is a fine course.  FH is most certainly in the ballgame for my taste.

would anyone here play Atlantic 20% of the time if they also belonged to SH,NAT,Maid?

[Steve Lapper]

Jeff,

   Funny this thread should appear just now. Having played Friar's Head several times this past season, and the others numerous times over the past 20yrs., I made the argument yesterday with a member of The Bridge and Atlantic GC that Friar's Head easily displaces Atlantic from the Foursome. He easn't far

I'll go one step further and venture/predict, that over the course of the next 5-7 years, FH will replace Maidstone in the top triad. Maidstone is wonderful, charming, beautifully situated, and always fun to play, but it has quite a few relatively weak and undistinguished holes that precede and follow its famous ones. FH may well suffer from the same opinion of others, but IMO there are fewer weak holes and many more interesting ones, along with what is certain to be several famous holes; #5,#7,#10,#14, #15, #17...
Just my Opinion, based on multiple plays.

 As for driving distance grouping, only in the midst of a Summer weekend or holiday does the drive from FH to Maidstone exceed 45-50 min. That same time is a bottom line 90mph time to Garden City or Piping Rock (have done that exact drive this past summer....each one of the best days of the summer!) In bad Hamptons traffic FH to SH is at worst 1hr, to AGC 1.2hr, toMaidstone, 1.4 hrs.
  Other areas certainly qualify no less than equally. Monterey, Melbourne, Westchester, SF, LA, St. Andrews come to mind.

Redanman,

 I agree with your assessment of the terminology however I shutter to think that SH, NGLA, and Maidstone would allow anyone of their embers to have joined Atlantic...might be considered gentic heresy!

Corey,

No way on the 20%....not unless they were angling for a special RE deal and even then, I doubt it!

[TEPaul]

If I belonged to SH, NGLA and Maidstone I think I would play SH about 10% of the time, NGLA about 30% and Maidstone about 60%.

It's interesting since they're all basically in the same area, same soil conditions, same basic era, very similar open feeling and such but they are very different golf courses day in and day out for any golfer. And they're all great ones each in their own unique way. The similarities of NGLA and Maidstone to any golfer are much greater than either of those two to Shinnecock though.

If I wanted to feel like a pip-squeak all the time I'd play SH all the time but I don't want to feel like a pip-squeak all the time!

[TEPaul]

Slapper:

It may be sort of a glass half empty/glass half full thing but I don't believe Maidstone is ever going to be replaced as a fascination and desired destination for all kinds of golfers who understand what it's about. I think the course is simply far too unique for that to happen. But why?

With it's un-irrigated fairways and situation where it is it's a course that produces variablity more than any I've ever known. And I say this for the very reason that you say it might be passed over---ie what some consider its weak holes.

The point is those holes one day can seem like not much, not challenging and probably are perceived as weak by many when the next day even they can be real terrors if the wind is around. The spectrum of how the conditions effect how any hole is played at Maidstone is probably greater there than anywhere I know and the fact that one day some of those holes really do feel weak might have a lot to do with the fascination of the course when they aren't that way.

Of all the holes at Maidstone considering the variableness of weather conditions the one that's the most interesting and variable to me is #14. Probably because of where it is but also because it basically sits at a diagonal to most of the rest of the routing.

Over the years I've hit anywhere from a wedge to a 3 iron there (always from the tips) and if that's not tough enough the concerns about direction can often be twice as tough as distance. It's probably not much different in extreme variableness from a hole like Pebble's #7,

[TEPaul]

redanman:

Are you saying there was a time at Atlantic when even if you had the dough they would have let you in? I never knew that but I'll go with whatever you say Groucho.

[Steve Lapper]

Tom,

  If I had tro split my time, I'd use the following scenarios:

3-Way

20% SH...mostly because it would give me an excuse to spend more time drinking on the porch..and golfing s...s & giggles.
50% NGLA..mostly for the pure golf fun factor.
20% Maidstone...for perfectly sunny hot days(again for the excuse factor..this time w/a view ....and some solid windy ones.
10% Further practice, drinking, viewing, etc..

4-Way
15% SH
40% NGLA
10% Maidstone
35% FH......sooo much fun w/out the over-the-top social intereaction known at the others.

 Per the 1/2 full/empty...great honest assessment of why-the-fun-by-the-sea factor...and the 14th is one of the great ones . But the same could be said at FH, especailly with maturity. If I recall, you've walked it so far and have yet to play it. I'll buy a 5yr future on your opinion (at the right price!)
The prevailing winds and exposure at FH will hardly see the drama of Maidstone or Pebble, but like SH/NGLA will be diabolical and relatively constant.

R-man,

  Dough v. society....hmmmmnnnn...let me think! Now of course, AGC remains of "society-only."

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

If I belonged to NGLA I doubt that I would travel much.

Redanman, money alone was never the criterion at Atlantic.

[Gene Greco]

Pat's right.

Money wasn't always the issue even from the beginning.

Donald Trump showed up in a limo to play the course to see if he'd like to join and was promptly escorted off the property. He was told he wouldn't be asked to join even if he was fond of it.

[Andrew_Roberts]

How about the Old course, the reverse old course, the new course, and kingsbarn?

[Joel_Stewart]

Nobody mention the super 7 at Pebble Beach;
Pebble, Cypress, Spyglass, Poppy Hills, Spanish Bay and the 2 courses at MPCC.  Add the Forest Course course which should be completed this decade and you have 8 courses within walking distance (granted it's a long walk).

If I belonged to the above mentioned courses I would play,
10% Shinnecock
35% NGLA
35% Friars Head
20% Maidstone

[ForkaB]

If you consider a "quadrilateral" to be a 4-sided space which is really (not just virtually) enclosed, than the Monterey Peninsula has no peers--even St. Andrews, which is the closest geometrically, but not close, GCA wise.

Even with the burgeoning McMansions, Pebble Beach reeks golf, whereas on the East of LI it is just another diversion.

Taking Maidstone and Friar's Head into the Shinnecock/NGLA "quadrilateral" would be like taking Pasatiempo into Pebble Beach's.  They are nearby, they are great golf courses, but they are not part of the essence of the place.  You might just as well add Fisher's Island to the pot, and then Monterrey could add Olypmic and SFGC, etc. ad inifintum.....

[Chris Kane]

MatthewM,
How could a learned design junkie like yourself forget Woodlands?

[TEPaul]

"Taking Maidstone and Friar's Head into the Shinnecock/NGLA "quadrilateral" would be like taking Pasatiempo into Pebble Beach's.  They are nearby, they are great golf courses, but they are not part of the essence of the place.  You might just as well add Fisher's Island to the pot, and then Monterrey could add Olypmic and SFGC, etc. ad inifintum....."

Rich:

Actually they are all part of the essence of the place or they will be soon. The place of essence is known as The GAP (the Golf Association of Philadelphia)! It's quadralateral boundaries are large and getting larger.

You know I've been concerned about the USGA losing relevence in the future but I'm no longer that concerned. If that were to happen The GAP is ready to step into the void and take over the golf administration of the country and the world if need be. We thought that name recognition might be a bit of a problem at first but we're solving that quickly as we finalize our negotiations with the retail clothing store!

[Matthew Mollica]

MatthewM,
How could a learned design junkie like yourself forget Woodlands?

Chris,

I thought that listing seven world class courses, within a five mile radius might be polite, yet still sufficient to prove the point. Yeah, you can add Woodlands, but maybe not  Huntingdale or Capital....

Matthew

[Chris Kane]

MatthewM,
But Woodlands is the fourth best course in that area: if we're talking about an impregnable QUATRILATERAL, it would be RME, RMW, KH and Woodlands...

Tell me a reason why Victoria or Metropolitan belongs ahead of Woodlands?

[Matthew Mollica]

Chris,

Woodlands is as you know, a little further away (distance-wise) than Victoria and Metropolitan, when accepting the two 18's at Royal Melbourne at the hub of the quadrilateral.

I just thought that seeing Jeff wanted courses close to one another, that I'd stick with courses well known to many overseas posters, which were also close neighbours.

Woodlands is right on the end of the Sandbelt another 10miles away? Not as far away as Pasa is from Pebble though...

You're right in that Woodlands certainly deserves a mention in the high end of courses in Melbourne, even Australia.

Matthew

[Chris Kane]

Matt,
More like 3 miles.  Probably a closer group of courses than the Long Island or (maybe?) Monterey group.

[Jeff_Lewis]

The amazing thing is how close so many of these great courses are to one another and yet have their own personalities. Quaker and Winged Foot virtually touch. Shinnecock and National DO touch.  QR, WFE, WFW and  Fenway could conceiveably be the best foursome when one considers quality and proximity. I don't think one would use up a gallon of gas playing all four.