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Patrick_Mucci

The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« on: March 11, 2003, 03:23:18 PM »
Is the 8th hole at NGLA the best manufactured/artificial hole in golf ?

The built up tee pad rises above the surrounding land, the tee shot traverses a long, high artificial berm guarding cars on a road that divides the hole, to the landing area where a series of centerline and flanking bunkers have been created, to the manufactured fortress like green that rises above the fairway and surrounding land, almost every aspect of this hole has been manufactured, yet it remains one of the great holes in golf.

Is it one of the best holes in golf and the best manufactured/artificial hole in golf ?

What other holes could hold that dual distinction ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

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Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2003, 03:35:19 PM »
Pat,
I love the 8th, but I don't really see it as "manufactured." When i think of artificial or manufactured, I think of holes where serious earth was moved, and for it to be great it has to appear as if it has been there forever.

The before and after pics of Kingsbarns that Brian Phillips posted a few weeks back were stunning, and seem to fit in with my view of great artificial holes. Whistling Straits as well.

The Bottle Hole just goes in my category of great holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

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Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2003, 04:59:16 PM »
# 17 TPC Sawgrass?   They don't get much more manufactured than that one!   :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2003, 05:46:03 PM »
SPDB,

Serious amounts of dirt were moved to make the foundation  and area surrounding the fortressed 8th green.

Bill McBride,

I don't know that I would classify the 17th at TPC Sawgrass as a great hole, but some might.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2003, 06:05:01 PM »
Great Thread Pat,

How about all 18 of the holes in that quiet little daily fee tract in North Las Vegas.....

JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2003, 06:56:39 PM »
The "best manufactured" doesn't mean the best hole for golf ...

Therefore, I nominate the 14th, the Floating Green, at Coeur d'Alene, as the "Best Manufactured / Artificial Hole" in golf.  It is a technical marvel un matched anywhere in the world.  Self-contained, movable and no part of it is in its natural state.

It is also a gimmick hole and not a very challenging one at that, but that wasn't the question  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2003, 07:33:35 PM »
I'll take one of the holes at Whistling Straits or at Kingsbarns as some very excellent 'manufactured' holes. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JAHogan

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2003, 07:36:09 PM »
#17 at Sawgrass gets my vote.  Totally artificial and the climax of the round.  I will never forget the pressure of trying to hit that shot with the swirling wind, heckling buddies and knocking knees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2003, 07:48:11 PM »
Patrick, I saw you recently mentioned the 8th, in another thread, but I havent played it so I didnt comment.  Can you let us know what was "manufactured." Is it just the "fortress" around the green that was built up or manufactured?  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2003, 09:33:26 PM »
Which one of the greatest holes in the world wasn't manufactured?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2003, 09:43:20 PM »
Excellent point, Adam.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

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Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2003, 01:37:32 AM »
I think the greatest manufactured hole in the world is Number 6 at Kingsbarns.

I haven't played NGLA so I cannot comment.

But for pure construction genius and great strategy then this hole for is not only one of the best short par 4s that I have played but also ranks as one of the best holes I have played.

Brian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

TEPaul

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2003, 05:37:37 AM »
"Which one of the greatest holes in the world wasn't manufactured?"

Obviously to some degree every golf hole was somewhat manufactured, so it certainly isn't a matter of a great hole not being manufactured at all it's only a matter of to what degree and to what degree what was natural landform was used.

This is the fundamental point regarding "naturalism" in golf architecture discussed in some length by early writer/architects such as Max Behr and Robert Hunter, Alister MacKenzie et al. Those so-called early "naturalist" architects completely recognized that there were a few 'necessary requirements' in golf that made some degree of architectural manufacturing necessary. At a minimum those 'necessary requirements' were tees, fairways, greens and generally bunkers (to some extent if used). The necessary man-made requirments to the game of golf, in other words

So, again, it's never a matter of any golf hole not being manufactured/artifical at all, only to what degree.

Clearly, their further point on "naturalism" was that if anything was to be manufactured that it be made somehow to look as natural as possible (even including tees, fairways, bunkers and greens).

After understanding that reality, to me the hole that is probably least manufactured/artificial that might be considered great would have to be #9 Cypress. Pre and post construction photographs show that almost total lack of manufacturing very clearly.

Almost nothing was done to the hole's natural landform  beyond its natural state other than to "lay down" fairway, green and build a tee. Only one rather inconsequential bunker was built but into a sand waste area as to appear completely indistinguishable from what was there. Given those 'necessary requirements' (tee, fairway and green) you can't get much less manufactured/artificial than that hole. The truly startling thing about Cypress's #9 is the green itself. It's entire shape, slope and contour is almost entirely the way it was naturally (as much as any interesting green I've ever seen!).

Another good example to me would be Merion's #5--a truly great par 4 and an almost completely natural landform of tee, fairway and green form. Obviously 3-5 bunkers were added but beyond that almost no earth was moved throughout the hole.

Pat's mention of #8 NGLA is an interesting one regarding manufacturing/artifical. The hole is clearly manufactured at the green-end and massively so. Bunkering was put into the hole, the berm was built (probably built up more somewhat later) and a tee was built.

But the difference between NGLA's #8 and more modern highly manufactured/artifical holes is almost no earth was moved on #8 throughout the hole's "mid-body" to construct things such as large scale fairway contouring and particularly  large scale man-made architectural formations along the flanks of the mid-body of the hole as is so often and so massively done today. This would include earth-moving and manufactured architectural formations such as parallel flanking shaping, containment mounding formations along the hole's flanks as is done today. The flanks of the mid-body of #8 are completely natural landform!

But the entire green-end is startling in it's manufactured/artifical look. Instead of moving earth down off a natural ridge on the left Macd/Raynor actually took earth and a large amount of fill from the low side on the right and pushed it up the ridge and made the entire green surround area much higher and went even higher than the natural left ridge with the 9th tee immediately to the left of #8 green. Obviously the green-end area at #8 needed to be "leveled" as so many greens built along ridges do but on #8 the entire thing appears to have been done much higher than might have been required.

For any golfer playing #8 for the first time to imagine how the green and green-end would have probably looked if far less earth was moved, less manufacturing done and less of an artifical look would have to imagine the green probably much lower and probably somewhat to the right of where it now is. That probably would have created some drainage rearrangement and different shaping tying in to the natural ridge on the left and the lower area out the right. Possibly earth on the natural ridge on the left could have been pushed out and down to the back and also down and in the direction of the 9th green.

Would that have made for a better hole and a better green and green-end at #8? Probably not-but it probably would have looked far less manufactured and artificial than it does,

But the hole plays great and in my opinion that's what Macdonald was shooting for. I don't think he cared as much about avoiding the manufactured/artifical look of it as some other architects, particularly ones who were building after NGLA may have.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

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Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2003, 05:49:00 AM »
For true manufactured golf, give me #17 at Shadow Creek.  It is an awesome engineering feat and a solid golf hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2003, 07:07:07 AM »
Truth be known, the entire 18 at The Ocean Course are manufactured.  As Pete was staking out the routing, Hurricane Hugo came through the Charleston area.  Kiawah sat on the south side of the storm so the majority of the storm winds were from onland out to sea.  The entire dune structure of the island was desimated.  What was left was a barron moonscape.  

A number of the Golfweek raters heard this story when they were here last fall.  The owners of the resort couldn't get onto the island after the storm due to the damage.  They hired a helicopter so survey the damage.  As they were flying over the site of The Ocean Course, the looked down and saw a bulldozer out there shaping the back nine.  On it was Pete Dye.  They didn't have a clue as to how he got there and even less of a clue as to how he got the bulldozer out there. :o  He remanufactured the dune structure as best he could from memory and photography...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2003, 07:14:13 AM »
Perhaps thats why I feel CPC's #9 is the greatest hole in the world. #8 at Pebble would also qualify for very little being altered from nature and again it was all at the green site.

As for Shadow creek since it was all sculpted which is the best golf hole on that course? David postulates 17, I have a tough time picking one that truely classifies as great, but if you put a gun to my head and made me, i'd say either the first par 3 or John Daly's favorite hole (14, 15, 16?) the slight dog right par 4 with the water right and tree left.

The first hole that came to my mind when reading pat's post for the first time was the second at BWR's Meadow nine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2003, 07:28:47 AM »
Patrick;

Hope you're enjoying the long winter somewhere warm.  :)

Now, back to business...

Are we talking 10% manufactured, 20%, 50%, 100%?

It would seem to me that #8 at NGLA is about 20-30% man-made.  The rest of it, as Tom Paul points out, is pretty much just what originally existed it seems to me, particularly the mid-body of the hole.  

I think that contrasts greatly with many wholly manufactured modern designs, where not a stone is left unturned (so to speak) during the construction process, and the resulting hole or course is completely reshaped by the architect.

In some cases, that has turned out some excellent work such as Whistling Straits, Kiawah Ocean, Twisted Dune, and even courses like Lido and Indian Creek in years past.

However, in more cases than not, I'd argue that most wholly manufactured courses tend to come apart at the seams around the edges.  I'll give you an example of what I mean by that...

There is a course near the Delaware shore called Bear Trap Dunes, and it's a very decent, fun course by Rick Jacobson.  The theme is "dunes", and large lakes were dug on the property and the sand based soil that was uncovered was used to create faux dunes of various heights throughout the property.  It gives the course (on VERY flat original land) some degree of roll and "motion", although too often it's only used as mounds paralleling fairways and greens.  

However, once one gets to the holes along the boundary of the property, the whole illusion is lost.  All one has to do is look at what adjoins the course and it's flat, flat, flat soybean fields, with nary a foot of elevation change.  The contrast is almost humorous, and certainly any notion of a golf course in harmony with its environment suddenly vanishes.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2003, 08:12:05 AM »
Three great holes that I think have virtually no manufacture component, all at Rye: 5th, 13th and 15th.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Sheehan

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2003, 10:43:30 AM »
In my opinion, #10 at Riviera would have to be inlcuded in any discussion of great AND manufactured holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2003, 11:57:55 AM »
Mike Vegis:

That story about Pete Dye is priceless!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

TEPaul

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2003, 01:53:47 PM »
"In my opinion, #10 at Riviera would have to be inlcuded in any discussion of great AND manufactured holes."

Sure this hole is manufactured but how much? It's a tee, fairway and greenside bunkering and a small lowish profile green beautiful in shape, orientation and slope--that's it! The natural landform was a flat open nothingness. But the interesting thing about this hole is Thomas did just enough--no more! That hole is one of the best in the world, in my book, but basically its spare architecturally. It gets a beautiful job done strategically with the bare minimum of architecture.

I think anyone would be shocked to know how little earth was moved on that hole--it's a true example of beautiful architecture--real minimalism too on an original flat blank canvas!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

BCrosby

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Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2003, 02:59:18 PM »
As noted, all holes are manufactured.

Some attempt, however, to to look as if they exist naturally (if you will excuse the anthropomorphism). They were built to look as if they had been found in the dirt. This willing suspension of disbelief might be called the "naturalism-conceit". We all know the truth, the holes they build are no more "natural" than the entrance road to the clubhouse, but we pretend otherwise.  

The vast majority of architects buy into the naturalism conceit. They try to build courses that appear to be "natural', wink, wink, nod, nod. (That's not intended as a criticism, just a fact about cga.)

The interesting question is what are the best holes that don't indulge in the naturalism conceit? Put differently, what are the best holes that are obviously artificial, man-made invasions of the natural terrain that surrounds them?

My vote goes to any Biarritz Hole.

Bob

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2003, 07:25:53 PM »
TEPaul,

I think your example of # 5 at Merion as a "natural" hole versus # 8 at NGLA as a manufactured hole is an excellent example of contrast, extremes in the creation of a golf hole.

A Clayman,

I thought golf holes were all out there, just waiting to be discovered.

TEPaul's citing of # 5 at Merion as an unmanufactured hole is a good example of putting a cup in an area and mowing the grass lower than the surrounding grass to make a hole.
Without the bunkers, the hole is about as unmanufactured as you can get, compared with the 8th at NGLA, which is manufactured stem to stern.

DMoriarty,

It's a shame that old threads can't be retrieved through the search mode.  There were a few good threads on # 8, complete with several photos and schematics.

One of my first posts on GCA dealt with # 8.
It is the type of hole that you could play for the rest of your life and never tire of it.  I like it for the following reasons.

Off the tee you have two to four options depending on your driving abilities.  Where the hole is really neat is if you are unsuccessful in executing your tee shot.  The shots you face are interesting and challenging.  One of the great features of the hole is the elevated green and the appearance that the pin, if cupped on the right side, looks like it is suspended in space, like a gangplank.  If you miss into the right side fairway bunkers you have a difficult shot from fairly deep bunkers to an elevated, well protected, and fierce looking fortress green.  Shots missed left have a less difficult approach, but it is only in the sense of relativity that one could take solace.  Shots missed in the center bunkers face more difficult extraction due to the size of the bunkers and their configuration, including sharp lips/banks.

The green has a semi-false front rolling back into deep bunkers well below the green.
The right flank of the green is a sharp wall leading down into the woods.
The left side of the green is bunkers, mounds and other unattractive areas.  Any shot hit here faces a shot to a green where the right side falls off dramatically.   It's an intimidating shot, especially when the pace of the green is up.
The rear of the green falls away into a tightly mown bowl then disaster.

The green is larger than it looks from the fairway/rough/bunkers and just hitting it doesn't mean you'll two putt.  Subtle and not so subtle undulations and the fear that one can putt off the green, down into oblivion adds pressure to the putting green side of the hole.

The tee has been extended/lengthened recently as high tech took the centerline bunkers out of play for some.

It is a wonderful hole to play, match or medal.  Hopefully, you'll get the opportunity to play it.

If you were driving on the road that bisects the course you could see the hole clearly from your car.

Mike Cirba,

I think, after careful scrutiny, that you might conclude that the hole is more manufactured than meets the eye.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2003, 07:42:07 PM »
Pat, For a one shotter, the 4th at Hollywood is startlingly manufactured - and brilliant!! I think you would agree?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best manufactured/artificial hole in golf
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2003, 08:16:39 PM »
Ran,

You're correct, the 4th at Hollywood is wildly manufactured, yet succeeds brilliantly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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