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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What gives a course its
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2003, 06:50:41 AM »
Mike Cirba:

Don Rumsfeld was a classmate of mine back in the 1970s. I’m having trouble relating the person I came to know with any golf course. If there was one quality that stood out about Rumsfeld it was his focus on listening. He always seemed to want to hear and think about the views of others before telling you what he thought about a subject.

I guess I can see Tommy Naccarato being Prestwick, but nothing comes to mind for Rumsfeld – at least not from the person I studied international relations with.

Can you explain your comment?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Mike_Cirba

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2003, 06:52:56 AM »
Ran;

A perfect example of the Rumsfeldian (*no offense intended to fans of the Sec. of Defense...he just seems to me as the prototypical policy wonk) course might be something like "Kings North at Myrtle Beach National".  Many holes at this golf megalopolis offer various choices of strategy, including an alternate island fairway, but ultimately the course is hollow emotionally, and does nothing to uplift the spirit.  Even the 44 bunkers (strewn for aerial photo ops) on the 18th hole are the "soul" equivalent of Pat Boone in an Elvis costume.

Another example might be a course that bills itself as the Augusta National of the northeast, Baywood Greens in Delaware.  Ran, this place is incredible.  The conditioning is incredibly lush, they've planted some hundreds of varieties of flowers, the landscaping is like something out of the hanging Gardens of Babylon, and many holes offer strategic interest.  Yet, as overwhelmingly pretty as the course is, it ultiimately is the soul equivalent of a gorgeous porn star, all external beauty with a sterile heart of stone.

I can think of many others, but I'm sure you can think of some, as well.  

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any soulful courses that don't offer strategic interest, so you were at least "half right" in your response.  ;) ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2003, 06:57:27 AM »
Tim Weiman;

I feel like Dan Quayle after using the JFK analogy during a debate!!  :-[

My Donald Rumsfeld analogy (and PLEASE everyone...this isn't meant to be political in the least!!) was simply an obviously lame attempt at humor and to me what sounded like a clever phrase.  To me, Rumsfeld comes off as a dour, stern, intellectual, humorless, straight-laced policy geek who doesn't let emotion seep into his public image in any shape or form (ok...sometimes he does come off as pissed off).  

If someone like Aretha Franklin is soulful, I'd just consider Rumsfeld to be her almost polar opposite.  Make sense?

In the interest of political balance, could we also use Zbigniew Brezinski?  ;)

Ok, perhaps we'll just leave Mssrs. Rumsfeld and Brezinski out of golf discussion entirely.   :-X
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2003, 07:07:41 AM »
Mike-At least stand up for yourself in front of the bias police on this board :)  I actually think Rumsfeld shows some personality in his dealings with the press.

Of course, he has a tough act to follow in the personality ratings as he is following the well known funny man William Cohen. ;)

Brezinski gets a pass as he is hard to understand at times I would suggest Albert Gore.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

D._Kilfara

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2003, 07:13:17 AM »
"Soul" = "Quirk". For me, it's often that simple. Muirfield is an example of a great course that is fundamentally soulless, at least from my perspective.

Paul, I liked your music analogy...but surely Mike Stranz is at the forefront of the punk rock movement in modern architecture, is he not?  8)

Cheers,
Darren
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2003, 07:18:16 AM »
Corey;

Perfect!! And yes, that Cohen had me in stitches!  ;D

Can we all agree on replacing Rumsfeld/Brezinski with Al Gore as our semi-humorous-politically-benign example??

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2003, 07:20:47 AM »
Mike,

I think you are discussing the most important aspect of golf and golf courses.  However, to begin to dissect a course to describe its soul I think you begin the process of diminishing the experience.  That is what bothers me about the ratings game.  Anytime a course is mentioned some raters come on and say okay give me a break down on hole lengths, par, direction of par threes, on and on.  They must analyze it in order to fit it into a system that will spurt out a rating and it is absolutely meaningless.  What I feel or you feel when we step onto the place and how we feel as we play it is the most important test and it is something they can not factor in.  Most people look to the Grammys or the Academy Awards, or the magazine rankings to tell them what is good and they lose their ability to know what they think is good.  That is a sad aspect of these rankings, and the need to rank every thing in our culture.  Most of the movies that have been so highly paraised I finally rent and watch and without exception I find them to be junk, but we are told these are great.  I think soul, greatness exists all around us if we look from within our own soul, as long as it has not been polluted by someone else's opinions and thinking.  Which for me means soulful, great things are probably on the fringe of obscurity, undiscovered, but they exist and give their treasure to those that can see it.  

Haivng said all that I can relate to Geoffrey comment about the heros whom have giving their spirit to a place.  I think I always felt that about Colonial because of Hogan, but when I played Colonial it did not grab me inside, and make me want to come back.  The great thing about it were all the scantilly dressed whores that came to the tournament, the Green Oaks Inn, where as a kid I swam in the pool and none other than Fat Jack jumped in, and as a kid that beleived in heros I thought I might hypervenilate, and the clubhouse that overlooks the three finishing holes.  But the course did not grab me when I played it.  So the history in the ranking is a little bullshit really.  And then there is Klein's reccomndation that environemental stewardship go into rankings.  What crap that is.  I just spoke to a great group of environemntally oriented people, a collection of environemntal professionals, about land based design and Hawk Pointe, but I told them that first and foremost my obgligation is to the strategic design of the course, not to the environment, but that does not mean the two are incompatible.  However, this is a game and it must be designed to the highest level of strategy possible.  We are not trying to create sanctuaries or arboretums.  I think Klein's environemntal ranking is dangerous and deceptive.  It gives the wrong impression to people in the environmental movement, and when you must insist on a golf hole being a certain way eventhough it might initially impact the environment they feel you betrayed them, yet if the strategy is severely compromised otherwise you have to stand up for the course, for the game.  Now, maybe his point is to reward courses in their maintenance practices, but why should that impact the rankings of a golf course.  It really shows how ridiculous this whole ranking system is.  There are plenmty of people at there whom are very sensitive to the design and management of a course within the environment yet they do not do it in a way that draws attention to themselves, theya re jsut good people doing their best everyday, striving for excellence every day without the need to publicize it.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What gives a course its
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2003, 07:23:11 AM »
Mike Cirba:

No need to apologize. The analogy doesn't strike me as easy to make, but I take no offense. The setting I came to know him in wasn't exactly a Pentagon briefing, of course. Nonetheless, I would say he came off as a pretty friendly person. Quiet. Reserved. But, definitely a respectful likeable guy.

When I was across the pond recently his name came up a couple times. Clearly, Europeans don't like him any more than they like Bush. But, if they think he doesn't listen or study an issue at length before reaching a conclusion, they don't know the person I was exposed to.

As for Rumsfeld and golf, I'm not sure they mix. A doubt he would have time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2003, 07:27:48 AM »
Oops, I posted too early.  Back to your point.  I think the soul in anything, that the greatness in anything must be felt emotionally.  It does not come from analysis.  The emotional impact is the greatest test to me.  Therefore, you can not tell me what is great because I may not feel it the same way.  You can break it down on paper and show me why it is great because it meets all the criteria set forth by the rankers, the books, the experts, but if I walk out there, play it and do not feel emotionally impacted by it, all your analysis is no good.  Therefore, I would be reluctant to try any analyze what makes a course souful, and analyze how it affects you emotionally.  Although I am certain down the road we will have a soul meter that every ranker must take with them when the enter a course.  Maybe it will look like something from Ghostbusters.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2003, 07:33:44 AM »
Kelly;

I agree with you concerning the "emotional impact" and how soulful courses make us "feel" that often defies analysis.  

Are you saying that we have as much chance of explaining why we fall in love with someone as we do in coming up with the reasons why a course strikes us as full of soul?

Even if ultimately futile, isn't it worth the mental exercise and shared discussion anyway?  It seems to me that I'm learning something by hearing how others feel (and think) about the subject.  Yes, part of it is clearly ethereal and subjective, but I'm hearing a lot of different people coming to similar conclusions from vastly different starting points, criteria, and perspectives.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2003, 07:37:00 AM »
Mike-  yes there are many modern courses with soul.  I was only adding the ghosts of the giants of the game as an addition to an already good list of items that give a course its character and memoribility.  If anyone can go to Sand Hills and not feel its soul then they should take up tennis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What gives a course its
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2003, 07:45:54 AM »
Kelly Blake Moran:

I'm curious about your experience with course raters coming on and asking for information about the length of holes, the direction of par 3 on so on.

Have you actually had this experience? If so, does it happen frequently?

Also, if a course rater shows up, plays the course and quickly moves on, how likely is it that they will "get" the soul of a course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2003, 08:14:07 AM »
No, No Mike,

You are right.  It is worth talking about and late into the night and early morning if so inclined.  Ultimately you come away maybe thinking at a bit of a different angle after having heard someone, but still you can not disregard your emotional response to a course even though you have heard someone else's angle.  I think you have to trust your own emotion and feelings first.  You hear people coming to consulsions that seem similar to yourself, however how many of those people really believe in what they are saying and how many of them are giving you aprogrammed response?  That is important.  You think you have a common beleif with someone and then next week they seem to betray you by espousing something else because their whole belief system has been given to them, they did not develop it, they did not give the time required to know themselves, and ask themselves what so I really beleive.  So someone else's opinion must be scrutinized at that level.  

I like your analogy to falling in love.  I hate to say it but you have some friends who  you just do not understand how they could have married a person who has no appeal to you.  But they see eveything they ever wanted in her.  It is hard to describe sometimes the things that move you.  But you are right, it is always great entertainment to sit and discuss it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2003, 08:37:39 AM »
So, does Tobacco Road or Royal New Kent qualify as Punk Rock?

I miss Joe Strummer.

TimT


Quote
Nevermind SOUL.  

What golf architecture needs is some PUNK ROCK!  

The last decade with its CCFADs, was like some bloated 1970's concept album.  

We need the GCA equivalent of The Clash and The Pistols to blow things apart, and give us some real golf courses.

I miss Joe Strummer  :'(


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2003, 08:48:02 AM »
Tim,

When I made that comment I was thinking of Matt Ward.  A couple of times, I think it happened with Rustic Canyon, when he first heard discussion of a course his first reponse was to ask for the breakdown.  It seemed to me to be a programmed response of a rater.  But it may be absolutely important to their work.  No, I never have had a rater call me.  I am not even certain many of them even know I exist, or consider my work medicore, typical.  

I do not think anyone can give an evaluation of a course playing it once.  It takes a lot of experience with a course to give a solid opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2003, 08:56:12 AM »
Kelly;

I think "falling in love" is a good analogy for REALLY experiencing soul on a golf course, because it ultimately comes down to what a particular individual experiences emotionally on a given course.  For instance, extending your example further, it doesn't matter what all of one's friends think about a given woman...only that individual can either fall in love or not with her.  There is no "party line" in matters of the heart.

Ran;

At the risk of taking this thread into a serious detour, the course I almost mentioned that has plenty of strategy and even ambiance, but which I had a tough time "feeling" anything particularly special or uniquely soulful was Yeamans Hall.  

I'm sure you feel differently.  :)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2003, 09:05:41 AM »
Kelly;

When you say that
Quote
I do not think anyone can give an evaluation of a course playing it once.  It takes a lot of experience with a course to give a solid opinion.
, you are in good company.  Patrick Mucci pointed out here that CB Macdonald felt that a golfer had to play a course in every conceivable condition to make a solid assessment.

Ideally, that would be perfect.

Yet, we seem to make assessments individually all the time, based on our experiences and what we think and feel about a course, even upon a first-time playing

I've only played your home club once, yet I feel that I have a fairly good grasp of its strengths, weaknesses, and attributes.  Don't you think that part of any individual's assessment is how much that person actually takes the time to "see" what's there, even in a single playing?  

I know people who've played a given course dozens of times, yet if I asked them to describe certain holes to me from a strategic sense, their answer would likely be anything but.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What gives a course its
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2003, 12:20:30 PM »
Kelly Blake Moran:

I can't speak to what Matt may have said about Rustic Canyon and generally don't have that much interest in course ratings. Far better, I think , to build a network of friends who can make trustworthy recommendations about what is worth a special trip to see.

That's why I went out of my way to see Crystal Downs before it made it on everyone's list and why made my first journey to Ballybunion before the place became popular with the tour bus set.

One trip and course which still stands out for me is Burnham & Berrow. Well away from London and not part of the Scottish scene, it doesn't get that many visitors or rank high on any lists. But, thanks to Russell Talley I made an acquaintance I shall not easily forget. B&B is clearly a course with "soul", one I could play everyday and never be bored.

Burnham is a place golf architecture students should study. There are some marvelous green complexes, a varity of holes, but, most importantly, the course does the "mood change" thing as well as anywhere in the world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Matt_Ward

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2003, 01:35:47 PM »
Just to clarify a few things for those who mentioned me and my comments. First, I like to get the "facts" on any prospective course -- you know, the length, the differences between holes, course rating, slope, topography, and so forth and so on.

Once that's done you need to play the course in order to get the "feel" of the property from a firsthand experience. Unlike others on this site who have the God given ability to assess courses from just looking at photos I try very hard (sometimes I miss things like any human being) to assess what is being called for through the actual round -- for example, what is the pacing of the holes like -- how is the topgraphy used to maximize the natural elements of the site, etc, etc.

When we get to soul -- I'll say this again -- does the layout have the ability to inspire you. Few courses really do.

Kelly:

"A couple of times, I think it happened with Rustic Canyon, when he first heard discussion of a course his first reponse was to ask for the breakdown.  It seemed to me to be a programmed response of a rater."  

I have to say this in response -- the role of a reviewer is NOT to just apply some MECHANICAL formula is I believe you are saying. Do people "score" courses like it was some sort of Miss America contest? Sure -- some do that. However, there are those who are looking to see what exists beyond the surface level.

As I said in my original post to Mike's question I said ... "Mike, I would add the qualities of constant thought provoking situations that never, ever become common and routine. A course with "soul" calls for you to invent and craft shots and to handle a range fo situations that never become trite or pedestrian."

I also believe a course can be understood on a first visit but for "love" to take hold it may take a few more rounds for that to happen. But, Mike is also correct in saying that some people who play a particular courses dozens of times may be absolutely clueless on what makes the layout as special as it may in fact be.

When I develop a high level of EMOTION about a course -- that can happen on a first visit (sometimes love happens that way too!) and it may not happen until return visits (look at Jones' response to TOC) then I get sense of CONNECTION that lends me to see the inner character / soul of that course. Golf is about the interplay between the mechanical (what type of hole / how does it play) and the emotion that comes from what I described above to Mike in my original post.

Hope this helps ...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2003, 07:04:51 PM »
Matt,

I like your approach, and what seems to be your reliance on emotion as opposed to only formula.  I actually think more experienced people rely on emotion if that makes sense.

Tim,

I printed your section so that I have the course on file to play when I am there.  Another great reason to browse this site for experience from people like you.

Mike,

I am not convinced you know my home course, because even I am not convinced I do.  You mentioned soul and I bet you have not felt my course yet.  The only course I fel I really know is Odessa Country Club, and that is probably a sad statement.  I enjoyed Rolling Green but I am not convinced it lived up to its billing, but I only played it once, I have no right to make an assessment, and no one should listen to my one time experience.  Matt mentioned Jones and TOC.  HOw many times did he play it before he embraced it?  And, did he embrace it out of his soul, or because of tradition and possibly peer pressure?  

Tomorrow I am going to Manhattan to see the DaVinci sketches and the Manet/Velasquez exhibit at the Met.  Manet  after seeing Velasquez wondered why anyone painted at all.  Serra gave up painting after seeing Velasquez and took up sculpture.  So maybe seeing something the first time can be all the experience you need to know something is great or just mediocre.  I do not know.  But, if I walk away tomorrow and shake my head at any one of them am I a fool, misinformed, need more experience with them, or just following my own drummer.  That is something we can sit and debate and have fun with.  Right?

And at my age it probably doesn't matter because I will have a 6 and a 9 year old with me and like any parent I am hoping it blows them away, maybe changes their lives.  Otherwise it is back home and back to worshipping Shaq, Kobe and AI!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2003, 07:23:02 PM »
Mike Cirba:

My God Man how could you imply that Pat Boone had no "soul"? The guy was deep as hell once he took off those white bucks or desert boots or whatever he wore. I saw him one time and even the biggest robot could feel his pain. He did a rendition of "Respect" that would've had Aretha herself shuckin' and jivin' on the ceiling!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve_L.

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2003, 08:09:43 PM »
A good golf clubhouse...

It may not affect the character and physical characteristics of a golf course, but it definately affects the perception of the "PLACE".   And...  i think the "soul" of a course has less to do with the course proper, and more to do with the "PLACE".  

I can think of many clubs (many of which I haven't been to), and I think of their clubhouses as prominent to the "soul" of the place.  Among them:  Riviera, NGLA, Shinnecock, Oakmont, Winged Foot, Olympic, ANGC...  I can go on and on...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2003, 08:19:51 PM »

Quote
And at my age it probably doesn't matter because I will have a 6 and a 9 year old with me and like any parent I am hoping it blows them away, maybe changes their lives.  Otherwise it is back home and back to worshipping Shaq, Kobe and AI!

Kelly,

Just in case they are like my kids, the NBA Store is at 52nd & Fifth ;)
http://www.nba.com/events/nycstore.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2003, 08:44:41 PM »
Kelly;

I dug up the thread I started here after playing your home course last year.  While I'm sure there is much left to discover with subsequent playings, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts as to the discussion and how much I may have missed on my initial visit.

p.s. I'm really enjoying this discussion, and hope you are as well.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1019963741&start=0
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Paul_Turner

Re: What gives a course its "soul"?
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2003, 08:57:37 PM »
Quote
So, does Tobacco Road or Royal New Kent qualify as Punk Rock?

I miss Joe Strummer.

TimT


Two votes from Tim and Darren for Stranz as the Punk Rocker of golf architecture.  Me, I'm not sure-I haven't played his courses.

The ultimate Punk Architect would follow the lead of the greatest rock and roll band ever: The Clash:

Short is good:  Is there a better rock track than the 2 minutes flat of "Janie Jones"?

Cheap:  Anyone could afford a ticket to see Joe, Mick, Topper and Paul.  Albums were cheap too.

A nod to the past, but always "going forward" (White Riot).  

Move on, and embrace different styles: London Calling album with its dub, ska, jazz, funk

Know when to quit and don't sell out: No reunion tours for mega bucks











« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

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