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Tommy_Naccarato

Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shotters
« on: February 25, 2003, 05:01:18 PM »
During the discussion of Friars Head #10, Tom Doak, playing Devil’s Advocate, as he sometimes likes to do,:) mentioned of the non-existence of strategy on one-shot holes (Par 3’s)

While feeling that this is a subject that could be argued till the end of time I’m not quite sure which way I’m leaning, but the following images may leave a pretty good understanding what I think. We need to look to England and Wales and Scotland for the answers. You see, a blind tee-shot, one-shotter was common back way on yonder, and isn’t an element that was much favored by most of the Golden Age Architects who more then likely didn’t care for it or the hill-climbing. Call this a once in a lifetime disagreement if you will, but I don’t think I neccesarily agree, opting to really dig out the dinosaur that Rich Goodale says that lives with-in me.:)

The fact is I really enjoy the G.B. courses for studying architecture as much as our American versions. It is evident that at the turn of the 19th century that Golf was VERY natural and very much alive and well, even before the start of the Golden Age in America. Despite rapid changes even over the pond, they still know the Game better then 95% of us here in America. (i.s. fast firm, rough-edged bunkering [which is fast disappearing] walking, the lack of GPS devices, etc.)

I feel that there is something to be said of a certain strategy in all architecture which sort of works backwards, starting at the green and continuing back further from there. (greenside hazards to fairway hazards; natural occurring features, such as naturally occurring contours and even--gulp--artificially constructed ones!; Variety of options from the tee. You see, on most of the GREAT courses that I have seen and played, strategy allows us to position ourselves to the easiest or most realible place for us to achieve our intended goal--being in the hole. And somewhere in between that it’s as almost as if a whole new game begins--on the green, which is challenging us further, to get the ball into the hole. This is where interesting and subtle contours on the putting surface make their mark. From images, it I looks to me that Friars Head #10 not only properly defends that intended “goal” but also encourages many aspects of play to get it there. It also looks to be somewhat blind if it indeed wants to be.

I think that could be not only a good thing, but a fun one too. Tuck that pin behind the dune and there are all sorts of ways to get to the hole both fun and difficult, even lucky.  What about getting the ball to achieve some quirky bounce from off the extreme left hillside and letting it die down to the hole? What about using the “ant hill” dune to kick the ball into the back right corner of the green? Considering the distance of the hole, it looks like it would be an excellent option for a high-handicap player against someone of the talent of say, Ben Crenshaw himself! There are millions more on that hole. This is where I think design lends itself to such intriguing options for all, and if the day should ever come that I get to play Friars Head, I could only hope that the pin is cut directly behind the dune--what a fun and challenging shot that would be!

Taking Wales into consideration, lets us look at the much beloved home course of one Charles B. Darwin, known as Aberdovey.

The famed 3rd at Aberdovey is called, “The Cader” and while I have never played it, I can say it is just another golf hole that just intrigues my imagination beyond belief. However, it too, like so many others  has been a victim of change, eliminating the strategy, or in this case, “threat” that once existed. It is a perfect example of how certain golf holes should be preserved. (In Tom Doak terminology.)



The original Cader required a blind shot over a huge, ugly scar-faced dune, and in original photos, the teeing ground look to be nothing more then a small bat-boarded box. There was much to fear as the shot was totally blind, but pretty exciting for those who either felt they masterfully stroked the ball, or just came short of it. You see, if you were short of the dune, you had a horrible daunting task of having to carry over it again, or if you happened to just make it over, one of the deepest nastiest sand pits in all Great Britain, boarded by sleepers, with a huge lip that didn’t allow even the slightest of error. Back then, many writers from Hutchinson to Darwin spoke of  the excitement to run-atop the dune and see where your ball rested on the green or, just how harrowing of a predicament they had gotten themselves in.


Even with the ease of today's short iron shots, a grand hazard such as this has to be somewhat of both caution and curiosity!

The Cader seemed to be a most menacing presence, sitting there staring you in the face screaming you to challenge it, and unless you were only going to play two holes and walk-in, you had to tackle it. (not to mention in the early stages of the round.)


Looking back from behind the green towards the tee, the deep green-fronting hazard of the Cader is completely out of view

Much has changed on the course since, a sort of modern-day inspired standards if you will, eliminating the harrowing hazard just over the dune, and in its place two, less then menacing, rounded sand hazards that struggle to even be considered of the “pot” variety. Gone too is that evil lip that grabbed the almost-perfect shot. And it isn’t the only hole of that paticular variety that is gone. At Royal St. George, the  “Maiden” was victim to a imperfect routing and was changed at the turn of the century, it too, a formidable foe. The hole and even its teeing ground can supposedly still be seen just shy, and in line of the 5th fairway.


The Maiden

From Donald Steel’s Classic Golf Links of Great Britain, ”On the 5th, a small platform on the fairway allows the only sight of the green between two more hills. One of these might just be classified as a foothill of the Maiden, the name given to the famous mountain over which the short hole used to be played. Nowadays, there is a pleasant shot with a full view of the green from a different angle watched over, a mite disapprovingly perhaps, by the Maiden.” Steel later in the book goes on further to say, ”Memories of the game long ago are revived by the 2nd and 3rd. (at Aberdovey) The 3rd, Cader, a blind tee shot. This short hole may not be as frightening as in the days when ‘only a fool or a millionaire took a new ball’ but golf is duller for the absence of such holes and the Cader was a favorite of Darwin’s-as, indeed was the old Maiden at Sandwich.

While some of my favorite architects spoke/speak of less blind holes, they also speak/spoke of GREAT variety, and I find that there can be little argument for at least one hole in two or three courses that could emphasize the character of a paticular enviroment which it could be conducive to, that a hole of the "blind" variety couldn’t work out. It just takes a massive landmark or scarred hazard to emphasize the character of the hole, and while of a penal nature, it could be included subjectively in the verse of variety. It could, like all GREAT holes be both criticized and professed for its character, while demanding a respect which can be extolled.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2003, 05:16:18 PM »
Tommy,

Man, you have too much time on your hands.  It is time to get back up on your feet and get back to work!

(that Maiden picture is great)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

TEPaul

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2003, 07:25:12 PM »
"Blindness is the one type of hazard in golf that contains the element of mystery. If we were not all so concerned about our scores, and, instead played golf for the pleasure of playing the strokes, blindness would not be so abhorent to us as it is today."
Max Behr, 1926

A fascinating and pure thought but the question is, unfortunately, how realistic is it in the golf world we live in today?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2003, 07:48:01 PM »
Just read this yesterday.  Can't say I agree, but very interesting in light of Behr's quote.

"It is rarely advisable to place greens in deep hollows, on narrow ridges, or on steep slopes.  Such positions are usually blind, and a shot to the green which the eye cannot follow is one of the least satisfactory in golf."    Robert Hunter, 1926

Goodale must be changing to another thread just about now.  ;D                                        

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2003, 08:03:40 PM »
Doesn't the Irish course a Whistling Straits have a blind par 3? I haven't played the course but that's what I've heard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

A_Clay_Man

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2003, 09:24:30 PM »
Great thoughts Tommy, destined to be a treehouse classic.

 I was transfixed by the journey and was reminded of the Ninth at Wilshire with it's blind tee shot as well as the little dump course here that just closed it's doors.  :'( I couldn't get over how that little course built on 96 acres had features, albeit not as grand, as the features found across the pond and these other wondeful examples you've only seen in pictures. (hi pat) :D    
Noses, knolls, humps, mounds and now caders. C&C's anthill is inspired and those greens ahhh those greens. But I've only seen the course profile pictures. :'( I especially like how the author compared the transition emphasis to the lackthereof at Spyglass. Very illuminating. Thanx again for the lesson, Emp



These guys are good!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2003, 03:08:11 AM »
Tommy

I'm with you on the beauty of blind holes (although I have a strong perference for those to greens or fairways hidden in hollows--i.e. downhill--and a strong antipathy to those which go in the gravity-defying direction....).  I wouldn't be such a fan of Painswick (which probably has more blind shots than the combined communities of Carmel, Clementon and Southampton) if I felt otherwise.

We are being Quixotic in this, however, if we think that the Maidens d'antan will be resurrected or even copied.  Far too many (mostly bogus nind you...) issues regarding liability, "fairness" speed of play, etc.  Even the 10th at FH is pretty much a blindness cop-out.  C&C and Kenny could have built a real "Dell" replica, using the "anthill" as the central feature, rather than just a bit player, making a teeny green rather than a huge one.  What they did is create a really intriguing golf hole, but it is just a dollop to blindness, not a tribute....

As for yourself, I would never call you a "dinosaur."  A Mastodon, perhaps, as they are more modern, and your incredible memory makes you much more reminiscent of an Elephant than a Stegosaurus.

Also, I loved the "card and pencil" drawing of the Cader.  Who did that?  Maybe it's just me, but that sort of perspective is far more valuable in understanding the dynamics of a hole than any picture.  Actually, it is ideal in conjunction with the pictures, as you have done.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2003, 06:55:49 AM »
Rich,

I mentioned you only because of the "battling" quotes from Behr and Hunter.  We know how much you like books on golf architecture.  ;)  

I should have read Tommy's post a little more thoroughly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

ForkaB

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2003, 07:03:10 AM »
Eric

I am too polite to have publically revelled in the contradictory quotes from B and H.  I suspect, however, that Tom Paul is now under the 24/7 care of Dr. Katz while he tries to resolve the confusion which he must now have regarding two of his greatest heroes........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2003, 07:21:08 AM »
The drawing of the Cader is Patric Dickinson's, from his book "A Round of Golf Courses."  I got that out of the public library when I was 12, but then later I couldn't remember the name or title; I finally found it again about ten years ago.  His diagram of the Pit at North Berwick is even better.

If you want to build a blind hole, the tenth at Friars Head is a good role model, because it has the two most important elements -- an impressive natural hazard to hit over the top of, and a receptive target.  The Dell at Lahinch and the Alps at Prestwick are also in this category.  The Himalayas (5th) at Prestwick is not nearly as good a hole -- you hit over the ridge, but the green is out in a field guarded by pot bunkers.  Even if you know the hole, it's uncomfortable to visualize.

I think it's possible to have great variety in a golf course without including a blind shot, but there's nothing wrong with it, either, if you can minimize the safety issues.

I'll have to go count how many of the top 100 courses in the world have a blind shot.  More than you'd think.  Pine Valley and Royal Melbourne West (tee shots #4); Cypress Point and Pebble Beach (tee shots #8); Royal County Down; there will be quite a few.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2003, 07:35:58 AM »
Tom Doak writes:

"If you want to build a blind hole, the tenth at Friars Head is a good role model, because it has the two most important elements -- an impressive natural hazard to hit over the top of, and a receptive target.  The Dell at Lahinch and the Alps at Prestwick are also in this category. "

That's what makes Painswick's two most notable blind par 3s so appealing.

An impressive "natural" hazard.



To a receptive/bowl green.  (Ball comes from the left-see the marker post)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2003, 10:12:11 AM »
Reading this thread and looking at the pix Tommy posted, "Tobacco Road!" popped into my mind.  There is just a ton of this stuff there, and I think I played the Cader, sometimes as a par-4, about a half-dozen times.  Overkill?

Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
That was one hellacious beaver.

TEPaul

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2003, 11:42:34 AM »
"I am too polite to have publically revelled in the contradictory quotes from B (Behr) and H Hunter).  I suspect, however, that Tom Paul is now under the 24/7 care of Dr. Katz while he tries to resolve the confusion which he must now have regarding two of his greatest heroes........ "

Rich:

What you said there doesn't surprise me at all. Often I wonder if you have any idea about the interest of all this and the writing and opinions of many of those men. If you actually thought that to me disagreements amongst them was troublesome or disappointing I guess you really don't see the fascination in all this at all. It would be pretty boring generally and certainly to me if they all agreed on everything in golf and golf architecture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2003, 01:24:15 PM »
As per Tom Doak:

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2003, 02:47:39 PM »
Tommy

Love the "Pick up and throw!" line.  We've all been there, even Hunter and Behr, I presume, TEP.........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2003, 01:00:40 AM »
I feel like TEP replying to my own post, but I just had to jump in and add something, and maybe even sidetrack this track.

1.       Tommy—were those pen and ink thingies you’ve posted  (The Pit and the Cader) done by Tom Doak?  If not, who?  They are absolutely great and might even cause me to read some of Max Behr’s stuff if they were done by him!

2.      The “Pit” drawing above is elegant in its simplicity.  This is one of my favorite holes in golf, but the elegance of the drawing shows how simple (strategically) the hole is.  Lot’s of visual distractions, but whack it down the middle and then try to find a way to get over the wall with whatever short club you feel comfortable with.  No real width.  No real strategy.  Once you get over the wall, it is a doddle.  Even Hogan couldn’t 3-putt that green…….

3.      …….makes me think a little more (a dangerous thing).  Aren’t the next five finishing holes also very simple holes.  Whack it over the hill on the 14th and then hit down hill to “Paradise.”  Loft it over the front fortifications of the “Redan” and then hope to see the bounce that you says that you might have stayed on the green.  Whack it over the stream and then try to figure out a way to hit the bizarre (if not Biarittz…) 16th  green.  Whack it again and then try to judge a relatively short uphill shot to the 17th.  Do a final cojones test at the 18th—try to green it with a driver (with the possible risk of breaking the window of your car which is probably parked next to the OB stakes on the right), or wimp out with a mid-iron?

I love North Berwick, but is it really a test of the golfer’s strategic thinking (at least the last 6 holes)?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Huxford

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2003, 01:14:53 AM »
Tommy, could you please scan/post any of Dickinson's sketches or photos of Royal Worlington & Newmarket if there are any? I've been looking for that book for a while.

Rich, see Tom Doak's post (reply #9).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2003, 02:47:31 AM »
Thanks, Mark.  I did read that post, but my brain is more like a sieve than a filter these days.  I'd love to get a copy on that book too.  Dickinson seems to have a great ability to "deconstruct" golf holes into their essentials, and from 3 dimensions (as the Cader sketch shows).  Tommy, can you hear me..........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2003, 08:09:17 AM »
I'll get them scanned and posted a little later today, as I'm half-way out the door.

Rich, Like I said to you in email, I'm fighting the same only it is 44 years of it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2003, 03:35:35 PM »
Bringing this back up after I found Thomas' description of the 130 yards one-shotter at Ojai (today's AOTD) as a blind hole.

What if, instead of the dune/ant hill fronting the 10th at Friar's Head, there was a (stupid) broad yet low tree courtesy of Mother Nature.  That appears to be the case in the picture of Ojai's 17th in Thomas' book. At least a tree is 90% air, while a dune is significantly less than 1%!

Put a little slope in the green for a longer shot and, voila, the Treedan!  Whadaya think?

Regards,

Mike Hendren
Caddie Hero
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2003, 04:43:46 PM »
Mike,
The hole looks nothing like that image today. In fact, I think the green is much smaller and surrounded left and to the back with trees. You can't even really see hillside slope downward past the green to the left as you can in the image. The right is guarded by a long bunker

The blindness was at the tee, the actual current tee area, which a guess would say was built-up with the dirt remains when Billy Bell cut out from the hillside, the current location of the 16th green. The upper tee, which is supposedly still there, is up on the upper right, way above the hole, almost near the 18th tee.

At least that is the way it was explained to me. I could be wrong. Unfortunately I don't have any pictures from that area. I was too busy making biride on that hole last time I played it with Lynn Shac & Jim Wagner. I think it was like my 3rd birdie of the day on the back nine. Unfortunately it had to cancel out four bogies! Still my best play in a long, long time. I almost birdied #18 also!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2003, 04:54:22 PM »
Mike- As I recall there was a par 3 on the presidio gc. that had a valley between tee and green and nearer the green there was tree that you had to fly. It wasn't higher than eye hieght because the hole played slightly uphill. It may not be the same today and my memory may be faulty since it's been 7 years and I was only there once.

Also, the first par three at Shadow Creek is over a valley with many trees. I thought it was the best hole on the course very reminiscent (in acuality not even close) of "Mercy" on BWR's Valley nine only with trees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Friars Head #10, Blind and Semi-Blind One-Shot
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2003, 06:41:15 AM »
I'm not in synch with you guys on this one.  Partly because I don't really care for blind shots much although I realize the terrain often demands it.

I like to see at least 1 full shot land on every hole - on a par 3 that means the tee shot.  Also, if a hole has a really neat green complex, I enjoy a hole more if I can see it.  Doesn't mean #'s 3, 16 and 17 at National or # 8 at Troon aren't good holes (no, I wouldn't change them!), but par 3's usually can be built NOT to be blind shots (Himalayas/#5 at Prestwick being a possible exception).

I prefer #14 at Maidstone to #8 - I like to see the ball land even if I can't actually see it when it stops rolling.

There's a couple of par 4's at Machrihanish where you can't see either your tee shot OR your approach when it lands.  Both of them have wonderful green complexes tucked into the dunes.  Personally, I'd like to knock down the dunes by the green on both and actually be able to see those wonderful creations to which I'm hitting.

The par 3's at Dornoch are all quite good with very interesting green complexes that are 100% visible from the tee box. #6 might even be in many people's Top 10.  I'll bet all of them would suffer in reputation if there was a big old sand dune or hill of brilliant yellow gorse blocking the player's view from the tee box.

Do blind shots require better concentration since you have to envision the target?  I think so.  Is this a valid part of a golf architect's intended strategy for a hole?  Absolutely.

It's just not my preference on par 3's which, to me, are all about green complexes and hole location - #10 at Pine Valley and #4 at NGLA being two excellent examples and #16 at CPC being the most notable exception, I think.

But that's just my BIAS.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

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