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Matt Schoolfield

How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« on: February 12, 2025, 06:35:36 PM »
Was listening to Garrett Morrison and Stephen Proctor over in the Club TFE extras, and in one question Proctor started talking talking about "golf architecture" with regards to a course's beauty, which now that I think of it, obviously makes sense. It's just curious because I've always thought of it more in relation to creative game design.

I know I've got minority views here, but I don't know how far from center I am here. I guess I'm wondering how much people here value the beauty of a course, in relation to, say, the routing, or the strategic/penal design.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2025, 06:37:19 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2025, 06:38:53 PM »
It’s why I don’t play on simulators.

Sean_A

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2025, 07:24:55 PM »
Like any feature, isn’t beauty completely course dependent? Meaning beauty on each course isn’t the same. Just as the routing, bunkering, greens etc take on a different level of importance on each course. Hence the reason we shouldn’t say an individual feature is worth so many points on all courses. The greens on one course may be more important to the design than the greens on another course. It’s really what makes courses unique.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Dumbarnie, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Matt Schoolfield

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2025, 07:55:16 PM »
Like any feature, isn’t beauty completely course dependent? Meaning beauty on each course isn’t the same. Just as the routing, bunkering, greens etc take on a different level of importance on each course. Hence the reason we shouldn’t say an individual feature is worth so many points on all courses. The greens on one course may be more important to the design than the greens on another course. It’s really what makes courses unique.

Ciao


I’m guessing I’m wondering, as a percentage (?) how much of a factor it is for folks. It’s obviously fairly minimal for me, though it’s still nice.

Tim_Weiman

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2025, 08:34:45 PM »
Like any feature, isn’t beauty completely course dependent? Meaning beauty on each course isn’t the same. Just as the routing, bunkering, greens etc take on a different level of importance on each course. Hence the reason we shouldn’t say an individual feature is worth so many points on all courses. The greens on one course may be more important to the design than the greens on another course. It’s really what makes courses unique.

Ciao


I’m guessing I’m wondering, as a percentage (?) how much of a factor it is for folks. It’s obviously fairly minimal for me, though it’s still nice.


Matt,


It is a good question. I suspect for many golfers golf architecture really is about beauty. IMO, it takes a diehard golf architecture junkie to put that aside and focus on the actual challenges of playing a hole.


Many of my favorite holes aren’t especially pretty.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Sean_A

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2025, 09:50:43 PM »
Like any feature, isn’t beauty completely course dependent? Meaning beauty on each course isn’t the same. Just as the routing, bunkering, greens etc take on a different level of importance on each course. Hence the reason we shouldn’t say an individual feature is worth so many points on all courses. The greens on one course may be more important to the design than the greens on another course. It’s really what makes courses unique.

Ciao


I’m guessing I’m wondering, as a percentage (?) how much of a factor it is for folks. It’s obviously fairly minimal for me, though it’s still nice.

That’s my point. The “percentage” will be different for every course. It’s like you are asking how long is a piece of string.

When we properly understand that courses are unique then we will understand how truly crazy ranking golf is.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 12, 2025, 09:52:52 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Dumbarnie, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Simon Barrington

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2025, 01:57:27 AM »
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" & all that...

Is Golf Architecture Art or Science?

Should we feel or measure in judging a course?

Should we even be judging/ranking/comparing, or just simply enjoying?

Perrennial questions to which there are no definitive answers (all subjective), but as per Sean the uniqueness of every place we play this game upon is the separating factor for our sport above all others
« Last Edit: February 13, 2025, 06:28:09 AM by Simon Barrington »

Matt Schoolfield

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2025, 04:13:26 AM »
Sean, Simon

While a see your point, and generally agree... some sort of heuristic for the comparative value of beauty should be reasonable, even if it would result in crude generalizations at best.

Say you had 100 credits with which to fund a golf course on a star trek holodeck, credits can go to course beauty (beautiful setting/site, manicured turf, etc), while credits could equally go to strategic design (general course design focused on exiting play), or course conditions (e.g. sand capping/fescue, etc). Assuming 100 credits means some hypothetical perfection in the area, and 0 means extreme unpleasantness, how would you allocate your credits?

Stewart Abramson

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2025, 06:25:40 AM »
I think there are at least five categories of beauty that can affect a player's view (double meaning intended) of a golf course.


1. Internal components that are intentionally designed into the in-bounds portions of the course  e.g. size, shape, style(s), and placement of bunkers and use and placement of water areas, mounds, chocolate drops, heather etc


2. Internal characteristics of a course that can intentionally be changed fairly easily e.g mowing lines, color of sand in bunkers, height of rough and natural areas,  so that beautiful tans and violet tops wave in the distance or not, grass or heather edging bunkers, dormant grass vs overseeding


3. Internal characteristics that change naturally, e.g. gorse blooming yellow, heather blooming violet, deciduous trees in their autumn colors.


4. Factors external to the course that vary during and between each round. e.g. beautiful sunrise or sunset, blue skies with white puffy clouds vs dreary  grey overcast


5. The external setting  beautiful mountains, seas, lakes or deserts, vs commercial buildings, cookie cutter tract housing, highways, and caravan parking.


I think each of these things can, and do, affect a player's evaluation of a course, but SHOULD the " cosmetics" of these things affect a rating or ranking of a course? and if so, what weight (or Star Trek credits) should be given to each category of beauty. I've never tried to analyze that, so will have to think about it. I'm not a magazine rater, but when recommending courses, I often ask the person how important scenery and views are  to them. There are those who hate one of my favorite courses ( a very good course architecturally) because there are homes in view on several holes.


In other threads posters have distinguished between "best" courses and "favorite" courses. Perhaps beauty is a factor in that distinction,.

Mark_Fine

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2025, 06:54:27 AM »
Matt,
Maybe someone can dig it up but I did a thread about aesthetics being one of the most important aspects of GCA.  Obviously it was controversial but I said there are Zero courses in the Top 100 for example that are ugly  :)

Thomas Dai

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2025, 08:39:32 AM »
Angles relative to external beauty when viewed from internally …..
There’s a large hotel next to a certain highly regarded Old course on the east coast of Scotland that ain’t too pretty and there used to be some smokey engine sheds and a railway line there too.
There’s a not particularly edifying steelworks just west of a certain notable Welsh links.
Some lovely power station chimneys used to be viewable adjacent an Open venue in SE England.
A couple of West Coast of Scotland Open venues abut an airport.
Wind farms adorn many a hillside or coastal course background.
Imagine all appear pretty from a different angle though.
As to others there’s a course in Bangkok inside a major airport and isn’t there a hole alongside the DMZ fence between N and S Korea?
Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that.
Atb
« Last Edit: February 13, 2025, 08:42:59 AM by Thomas Dai »

Michael Felton

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2025, 08:46:20 AM »
Would 8 or 18 at Pebble Beach be so iconic if the ocean was a farmer's field with some white posts along it? I'm thinking probably not.

Jim_Coleman

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2025, 09:06:44 AM »

Would 8 or 18 at Pebble Beach be so iconic if the ocean was a farmer's field with some white posts along it? I'm thinking probably not.



   I have a friend who opined that Cypress isn’t much but for the ocean. My response - the Sistine Chapel isn’t much without the ceiling.

Charlie Goerges

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2025, 09:38:48 AM »
I think there are at least five categories of beauty that can affect a player's view (double meaning intended) of a golf course.


1. Internal components that are intentionally designed into the in-bounds portions of the course  e.g. size, shape, style(s), and placement of bunkers and use and placement of water areas, mounds, chocolate drops, heather etc


2. Internal characteristics of a course that can intentionally be changed fairly easily e.g mowing lines, color of sand in bunkers, height of rough and natural areas,  so that beautiful tans and violet tops wave in the distance or not, grass or heather edging bunkers, dormant grass vs overseeding


3. Internal characteristics that change naturally, e.g. gorse blooming yellow, heather blooming violet, deciduous trees in their autumn colors.


4. Factors external to the course that vary during and between each round. e.g. beautiful sunrise or sunset, blue skies with white puffy clouds vs dreary  grey overcast


5. The external setting  beautiful mountains, seas, lakes or deserts, vs commercial buildings, cookie cutter tract housing, highways, and caravan parking.


I think each of these things can, and do, affect a player's evaluation of a course, but SHOULD the " cosmetics" of these things affect a rating or ranking of a course? and if so, what weight (or Star Trek credits) should be given to each category of beauty. I've never tried to analyze that, so will have to think about it. I'm not a magazine rater, but when recommending courses, I often ask the person how important scenery and views are  to them. There are those who hate one of my favorite courses ( a very good course architecturally) because there are homes in view on several holes.


In other threads posters have distinguished between "best" courses and "favorite" courses. Perhaps beauty is a factor in that distinction,.






This kind of thing is why I think Matt's question of where to allocate your 100 points doesn't quite work. I find interesting, cool contours to be beautiful. I find the interaction between a city golf course and its neighborhood to be beautiful. I also find the ocean (or oceans of native grasses) to be beautiful.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2025, 09:43:11 AM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Joe Hancock

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2025, 10:01:07 AM »
I think of golf courses as functional sculptures. They aren’t created merely to look at, nor are they to be created strictly from a scientific or mathematical equation. It’s a complicated endeavor, and there’s a lot of choices to be made to add beauty during the creation of a course, whether it be an added (or sometimes muted) contour, or the attention paid to the horizon line of a feature….or, the sometimes serendipitous interplay of features that happen unintentionally. Whether to keep a tree, or a shrub or a patch of naturally existing plants, or to add a bunker or let a pretty contour win the day….


Then there’s Mother Nature, providing sun and shadows, or clouds, even rain….


Sean is correct, in that each course has it’s own appeal. Some architects use tactics in repetition, which lends them their style. And, like an art gallery, some will appeal to your eye, and some not.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

MCirba

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2025, 10:31:35 AM »
Eye of the beholder question, I'd think.


Is The Old Course beautiful?   Royal Lytham?   Oakmont?   Prairie Dunes?   


None have stunning surrounds in the traditional sense yet they are all beautiful to my eye.


Within a golf course there is something we call "eye candy" to refer to elements an architect may add that have little functional purpose but add to the visual impact.   I'm not a big fan of that practice as it's usually obvious when it's artificial.   However, the use of natural eye candy, or previously existing artificial eye candy (i.e. quarry, old barn, etc.) usually is well received.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark_Fine

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2025, 10:54:45 AM »
Yes, in the eye of the beholder but I would put a painting or lithograph of any of those courses you mentioned Mike behind my desk in my office.  Come to think of it I have one or two there already  ;D

Joe Zucker

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2025, 11:41:45 AM »
Matt,
Maybe someone can dig it up but I did a thread about aesthetics being one of the most important aspects of GCA.  Obviously it was controversial but I said there are Zero courses in the Top 100 for example that are ugly  :)


I wonder what the ugliest good/great course is? I don't know how I would define ugly here, but I would be curious what comes to mind for others.  Perhaps something in Florida lined by generic condos? But I'm not sure any of those course would be deemed great.

Kalen Braley

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2025, 12:15:21 PM »

Matt,
Maybe someone can dig it up but I did a thread about aesthetics being one of the most important aspects of GCA.  Obviously it was controversial but I said there are Zero courses in the Top 100 for example that are ugly  :)



I wonder what the ugliest good/great course is? I don't know how I would define ugly here, but I would be curious what comes to mind for others.  Perhaps something in Florida lined by generic condos? But I'm not sure any of those course would be deemed great.

Joe,

I was wondering same, almost seems like it might be worth its own thread.

There was a now NLE course here in SLC near the airport.  Built on a drab piece of flat ancient salt lake bed, smashed in between I-80 to the south, airport to the north, and the entrance road running thru the middle of it.

But it had some terrific holes with a nice mix of gettable and ball buster 4's, short but tricky par 3s, and a few reachable 5's.  Also used containment mounding, but on a few holes was set a diagonal to create a "bite off as much as you can chew" decision on the tee. A pity they had to close it due to a change in federally owned land rules, but was always a very fun play!

P.S.  When the wind was coming from the north,  the jets would approach low right over the length of the 15th hole. Loud as hell, but it almost seemed like you could hit em with a Rory-style high launched tee ball. ;)

Andrew Harvie

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2025, 01:02:29 PM »
When I was really loud on Twitter early on trying to get my name out as much as possible as a young, new-to-the-scene commentator on golf courses in Canada, I was very vocal about trying to separate the views/surrounding areas from the golf course, arguing that if a golf course was great, it would stand on its own two-feet, opening tee shot to final putt.


The funny thing about that was, I was a big Banff Springs and Jasper Park Lodge guy, as most people are, and spoke highly about how Thompson mimicked the peaks of the mountains in his bunkering! The irony.


I think I took this stance in response to my disgust for places like Stewart Creek and Chateau Whistler (among many other abysmal mountain courses in Western Canada) because I largely couldn't really articulate what the issue was. I, personally, felt the views of the mountains and how frequently the newer mountain golf courses gave you a "wow" tee shot based on views or severity downhill. These places were always ranked pretty highly (To this day, Stewart Creek is comfortably top 50 in Canada on SCORE's list, but barely made the Beyond The Contour Top 100), and I always felt like they were relying far too heavy on scenery, location, setting—whatever you want to call it. The golf courses are fine, but the shaping and actual golf portion lacked any real effort to making it not look like it was a man-made effort.


I still feel that way—that a great golf course stands on its own from the opening swing to the closing putt—but it's hard to put aside the setting of Pebble Beach or Banff Springs, because, well, that's a core part of the golf courses. The constant criticism that we wouldn't talk about Pebble if it was a corn field in Iowa with a huge depression as the ocean seems silly (would Herbert Strong have extended the 18th at Pebble if it was simply a chasm in the prairies???).


With that said, I think the word I was looking for is a sense of place. Chateau Whistler and Stewart Creek and any other example really fail to tie into their surrounds... there's zero sense of place on those golf courses and look so forced into the landscape that it's an eyesore at times. Places like Banff Springs, in contrast, tie into their surrounding environments very well, and they don't feel nearly as out of place as the above examples. Even something like Sagebrush, for as hilly as it is and closer in property characteristics to Chateau Whistler/Stewart Creek, feels like it's been there for far longer than it has been.


Which is where the artistic/beauty side comes into it. I've yet to play a golf course that I really liked that I thought wasn't attractive to the eye, largely because the best golf courses are so seamless into their surroundings and utilize the elements of the site that make them unique. Banff Springs and Pebble Beach are easy options to use as examples because they are SO pretty simply because of their settings (but the architecture does a good job highlighting that, also, with the 7th at Pebble and 4 at Banff being obvious inclusions to showcase the site's attributes), but a place like Rawls course in Lubbock, Texas or Hooper in New Hampshire also do a good job of fitting into their respective landscapes and don't forcefully contradict nature (Rawls moved a LOT of dirt moved but hard to tell).


It would be hard for a really good golf course to be ugly, in my opinion, because nature isn't ugly, and generally great golf courses do nearly everything well, not just one or two things. Even something like Muirfield, which is very low-profile and lacks any true visual stimulation, is gorgeous in the wind with the fescue dancing and the stone walls and looking to the water. That, and when Muirfield gets crazy on the bunkering like short-right of the 12th, it is really beautiful.


There is a functional element of tie-ins and bunkering style and all the nitty-gritty that goes into building a golf course that we, as consumers, take for granted, but there's also a beauty element to getting all that stuff right, too, so the golf course looks good, and the surrounding area looks good, also.


Bringing it back to the opening paragraph, a younger me might argue that the playing characteristics are the only thing that matters—strategy, options, green complexes, etc—but great golf courses deliver on nearly every aspect of the experience, and so I'd say it's a big deal to get the beauty of a golf course right. For some, that might be living up to the site's beauty a la Cypress Point or Jasper Park; in other instances, it might be creating beauty and having it fit into the landscape—but either way, it's a big deal.
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

SL_Solow

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2025, 02:26:07 PM »
I suspect that what the real question being discussed is the impact of beauty on ratings.  There is no question that location and beauty can make some sites more favorable to develop than others just as terrain and soil can be more or less advantageous. The true test of the architecture is what the designer does with what they are given.  Routing that creates interesting challenges while making the most of the natural beauty is obviously preferred.  Excellent shaping that fits the scale of the property is another of the multitude of factors that go into making a wonderful experience.  But the real skill is making the best of what an architect is given.  I suspect that we all have played courses where the product does not live up to the potential inherent in the site.  Some of those may be beautiful to look at but relatively uninteresting to play.  Others may be on an uninteresting piece of ground yet are fascinating to play due to the challenges created by the designer.  Of course the best are those that combine playing and visual interest.  But isolating beauty as part of the "architecture" is, at least for me, a bit of a fools errand.  It either exists or it doesn't and I try to isolate it in evaluating the architect's work.  However it is a factor in the enjoyment of playing any course.

Alex_Hunter

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2025, 02:36:19 PM »
Say you had 100 credits with which to fund a golf course on a star trek holodeck, credits can go to course beauty (beautiful setting/site, manicured turf, etc), while credits could equally go to strategic design (general course design focused on exiting play), or course conditions (e.g. sand capping/fescue, etc). Assuming 100 credits means some hypothetical perfection in the area, and 0 means extreme unpleasantness, how would you allocate your credits?


This is an interesting question you raise Matt. I'd lean towards 50% of my credits would go to setting alone (and that would include the rolling land it sits on). The world's best courses all have great settings and while they vary you aren't getting good golf in a flat farmers field of clay no matter what you put into the course conditions or strategic design. Mountains, Ocean, Sand Dunes, etc.. matter for context of the golf course
@agolfhunter

Matt Schoolfield

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2025, 02:54:31 PM »
Say you had 100 credits with which to fund a golf course on a star trek holodeck, credits can go to course beauty (beautiful setting/site, manicured turf, etc), while credits could equally go to strategic design (general course design focused on exiting play), or course conditions (e.g. sand capping/fescue, etc). Assuming 100 credits means some hypothetical perfection in the area, and 0 means extreme unpleasantness, how would you allocate your credits?


This is an interesting question you raise Matt. I'd lean towards 50% of my credits would go to setting alone (and that would include the rolling land it sits on). The world's best courses all have great settings and while they vary you aren't getting good golf in a flat farmers field of clay no matter what you put into the course conditions or strategic design. Mountains, Ocean, Sand Dunes, etc.. matter for context of the golf course
Careful here. I'm explicitly separating the beauty of the setting from the conditions. You could have the same rolling course could be on sand or mud and next to the ocean or between two 8-lane highways. The "setting" on the holodeck isn't just an ideal location, it is a deliberate tradeoff between pleasant surrounds, ideal playability, and course design.

Alex_Hunter

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2025, 03:03:44 PM »

Careful here. I'm explicitly separating the beauty of the setting from the conditions. You could have the same rolling course could be on sand or mud and next to the ocean or between two 8-lane highways. The "setting" on the holodeck isn't just an ideal location, it is a deliberate tradeoff between pleasant surrounds, ideal playability, and course design.



Yes, I think I understood that part. I'll try and rephrase.
I would rather golf in a moderately spectacular setting such as the mountains of Banff than say a golf course that was similar to 'insert any notable golf course' tucked up next to Highway 401 cutting through the heart of Toronto.
I think setting is quite an important part of golf course architecture. There are exceptions to the rule of course but it's an important connection for myself.
@agolfhunter

Kalen Braley

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2025, 03:22:37 PM »
Matt,
Maybe someone can dig it up but I did a thread about aesthetics being one of the most important aspects of GCA.  Obviously it was controversial but I said there are Zero courses in the Top 100 for example that are ugly  :)

I think its a good read,

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67795.0.html

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