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Ted Sturges

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What happened?
« on: December 05, 2024, 03:28:23 PM »
In the 1990's a new generation of golf course architects came on the scene, led by Tom Doak, Coore & Crenshaw, and others.  They ushered in an era that represented a "less is more" philosophy (the term "minimalism" became a new buzzword).  Their projects involved significantly less earth moving than the previous generation of golf architects and in my eyes, changed the industry (for the better).  The courses they were building with this approach looked like they had been there for years.  They didn't force themselves upon the land, they took what the land had to offer.  The golf (in my eyes) was  better, and low and behold, these construction projects didn't cost as much.


Three decades later, one would think that this shift in design philosophy would have manifested itself with a new generation of golf architects focused on moving less dirt and holding costs down.  This is sadly not the case.


I continue to be amazed at these renovation projects that cost $20 million or more.  How can it possibly cost that much?  How are these clubs being convinced to spend that much?  Who decided that "more is better", when the 90's taught us that the "less is more" approach resulted in better golf, but also cost less?


I won't list the clubs who are members of the "yeah, we spent $20 million on our renovation project" fraternity, nor will I list the architects who won these bids.  I'm just amazed that this is happening.  I'm a member at 2 clubs who have completed, or are in the process of completing major renovation projects that were done at a very reasonable cost (Yeamans Hall and Crooked Stick).  So, I know a club doesn't have to spend $20 million to receive a thoughtful renovation/restoration.


But the fact is, the list of $20 million plus renovation projects is growing each year.  What happened?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 04:51:39 PM by Ted Sturges »

Matt_Cohn

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2024, 04:14:48 PM »
I imagine a good portion of it is that a lot of the notable newer minimalist-yup courses are built on sand. Meanwhile, a lot of the expensive renovations are done on sites with less ideal soils and therefore involve a lot of work with drainage, sandcapping, etc.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2024, 04:27:48 PM »
I've been told that sand has tripled in price and the components for irrigation have doubled in price from pre-pandemic. So if you were going to spend $3 million sandcapping your site before, now that's $9 million. And if you were going to put in a $1.5 million irrigation system before, now that's $3 million. So just for those two items a project before that would have started at $4.5 million is now $12 million.


Obviously there are tons of caveats and other costs and not every project is sandcapping etc. But you can see why some of it is happening.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

ward peyronnin

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2024, 05:10:20 PM »
Ted Perfect timing as I am facing this dilemma as we speak.
As Charlie states I am being told that the accepted lifecycle of drainage and irrigation maxes out at 30 years. I have researched ABS and other underground plastic pipe and the literature I found cites a 50-70 year lifespan so I must be missing someting. Maybe the other componenets wear out more quickly but wouldn't that mean one doesn't have to blow up a course to change these less duarable components out?
Some archie friends hint at a USGA/Industry mutual benefit relationship that validates the impulse for people with a lot of money burning a hole to go the distance to be up to date? But that $20 million figure is suspiciously universal; heard the exact figure here.
I was hoping we would at least get a waterfall for that.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Ted Sturges

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2024, 10:32:04 AM »
Wardie,


Your last sentence (including the waterfall reference) made me laugh out loud.  :)


TS

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2024, 12:34:32 PM »
Renovation or restorations have a VERY wide range of details. Some of these large numbers include $3-4M for heating/cooling in the green system. They include a $3-4m irrigation system. Pump station? $500k. A spec'd bunker sand from out of state? $125/yd. Greensmix? $1.5-$2m. You're already north of $10m before a dozer has been in the ground.


An acre of sod vs an acre of sprigs? (timing & weather windows will increase sod needs) $20k/acre vs $3k an acre.


It can add up VERY quickly depended on scope.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What happened?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2024, 12:44:14 PM »
I deleted my thoughts ...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 12:57:21 PM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Jeff Schley

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2024, 04:06:11 PM »
Renovation or restorations have a VERY wide range of details. Some of these large numbers include $3-4M for heating/cooling in the green system. They include a $3-4m irrigation system. Pump station? $500k. A spec'd bunker sand from out of state? $125/yd. Greensmix? $1.5-$2m. You're already north of $10m before a dozer has been in the ground.


An acre of sod vs an acre of sprigs? (timing & weather windows will increase sod needs) $20k/acre vs $3k an acre.


It can add up VERY quickly depended on scope.
Anthony are many courses adding the heating and cooling systems?  Aren't they add ons for SubAir systems? So this is including doing subair and heat/cool system?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Thomas Dai

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2024, 05:06:54 PM »
I believe there are approx 30,000 golf courses in the World and that approx 200 countries have courses.
Curious to know what percentage of courses in the World are subject to the kind of renovation/restoration etc projects intimated in this thread?
And in which of the countries where there are courses are these kind of restoration/renovation etc projects taking place?
Atb

Mike_Young

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2024, 11:05:47 PM »
The enemy of good is perfection and it will never be reached in golf...it's sad...but the business rules the game...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What happened?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2024, 04:58:48 AM »
Renovation or restorations have a VERY wide range of details. Some of these large numbers include $3-4M for heating/cooling in the green system. They include a $3-4m irrigation system. Pump station? $500k. A spec'd bunker sand from out of state? $125/yd. Greensmix? $1.5-$2m. You're already north of $10m before a dozer has been in the ground.


An acre of sod vs an acre of sprigs? (timing & weather windows will increase sod needs) $20k/acre vs $3k an acre.


It can add up VERY quickly depended on scope.
Anthony are many courses adding the heating and cooling systems?  Aren't they add ons for SubAir systems? So this is including doing subair and heat/cool system?


Please see links. There are multiple courses installing Hydronics not on these lists.


PrecisionAire Hydronics at Southern Hills Country Club


PrecisionAire_Web_GIS_Presentation_2021.pdf


Slide 1
« Last Edit: December 07, 2024, 05:00:23 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What happened?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2024, 07:20:11 AM »
Renovation or restorations have a VERY wide range of details. Some of these large numbers include $3-4M for heating/cooling in the green system. They include a $3-4m irrigation system. Pump station? $500k. A spec'd bunker sand from out of state? $125/yd. Greensmix? $1.5-$2m. You're already north of $10m before a dozer has been in the ground.


An acre of sod vs an acre of sprigs? (timing & weather windows will increase sod needs) $20k/acre vs $3k an acre.


It can add up VERY quickly depended on scope.
Anthony are many courses adding the heating and cooling systems?  Aren't they add ons for SubAir systems? So this is including doing subair and heat/cool system?


Please see links. There are multiple courses installing Hydronics not on these lists.


PrecisionAire Hydronics at Southern Hills Country Club


PrecisionAire_Web_GIS_Presentation_2021.pdf


Slide 1
It was the hydronics that I was curious about. What is the delta from standalone SubAir/PrecisionAire to add the hydronics upgrade installed? SubAir is fairly common now, but the hydronics I'm not as familiar with and their cost/prevalence. Or even how necessary they are.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What happened?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2024, 09:44:04 AM »
Renovation or restorations have a VERY wide range of details. Some of these large numbers include $3-4M for heating/cooling in the green system. They include a $3-4m irrigation system. Pump station? $500k. A spec'd bunker sand from out of state? $125/yd. Greensmix? $1.5-$2m. You're already north of $10m before a dozer has been in the ground.


An acre of sod vs an acre of sprigs? (timing & weather windows will increase sod needs) $20k/acre vs $3k an acre.


It can add up VERY quickly depended on scope.
Anthony are many courses adding the heating and cooling systems?  Aren't they add ons for SubAir systems? So this is including doing subair and heat/cool system?


Please see links. There are multiple courses installing Hydronics not on these lists.


PrecisionAire Hydronics at Southern Hills Country Club


PrecisionAire_Web_GIS_Presentation_2021.pdf


Slide 1
It was the hydronics that I was curious about. What is the delta from standalone SubAir/PrecisionAire to add the hydronics upgrade installed? SubAir is fairly common now, but the hydronics I'm not as familiar with and their cost/prevalence. Or even how necessary they are.


Loosely? Several million dollars. They hydronics have proven very helpful sustaining bentgrass in areas where it's a real stretch several months out of the year. Clubs like Oakland Hills will also be able to "wake up" their putting greens earlier in the season, allowing them to avoid weather issues with early spring events. (USGA)
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Keith Phillips

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2024, 10:07:09 AM »
That is fascinating, Anthony.  I really had no idea the top clubs were investing so much in these technologies, but for the '1% of the 1%' I think it is great!  The elite clubs have no funding issues, so investing to have their facilities in peak conditions for longer seems eminently sensible.


Question - these systems seem perfect for the transition zones, as you indicate - curious whether south Florida clubs would benefit, or are there not enough golfers around in the June-September season to make it worthwhile?

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2024, 01:22:29 PM »
That is fascinating, Anthony.  I really had no idea the top clubs were investing so much in these technologies, but for the '1% of the 1%' I think it is great!  The elite clubs have no funding issues, so investing to have their facilities in peak conditions for longer seems eminently sensible.


Question - these systems seem perfect for the transition zones, as you indicate - curious whether south Florida clubs would benefit, or are there not enough golfers around in the June-September season to make it worthwhile?


I think that at some point, some course will try bentgrass again with the assistance of this technology. The club would probably be closed in the summers, as it's not just the heat that is hard on the bentgrass, its humidity & afternoon rain showers. I believe that Redstick was the last to have bentgrass in 2011 or 2012. The electricity bill might be really high, too.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL