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ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Robomowing and future design
« on: December 05, 2024, 09:31:19 AM »
We are investigating large scale automated mowing equipment at our course and a recent tour event was ballyhooed as a site where this efficiency initiative is in use.
Got me wondering as a question for the archies and other brethren how and how much will new and renovation design accomodate this labor saving evolution?
For instance I recently played a course in Pinehurst whose overwhelming feature relied on large irregularly ( and to me unnecassary) placed bunkers in all areas of the golf hole which produced many fingers and ribbons of turf clearly not favorable to robomowing. Granted there still remained larger areas of grass to so some incremental gains woiuld still be possible? Other examples or considerations in play?
 
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2024, 12:14:51 PM »
As an aside and not wishing to derail this discussion but machinery doesn’t always mean new machinery.
Many a golf course, especially courses with less funds available, survive based on secondhand maybe even thirdhand machinery.
It’ll be interesting to observe over time the life expectancy, replacement parts availability etc and the general re-use ability of robo-machinery. Plus more prosperous courses use trade-in funds as part of the process for obtaining new equipment.
Atb

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2024, 02:15:14 PM »
For instance I recently played a course in Pinehurst whose overwhelming feature relied on large irregularly ( and to me unnecassary) placed bunkers in all areas of the golf hole which produced many fingers and ribbons of turf clearly not favorable to robomowing. Granted there still remained larger areas of grass to so some incremental gains woiuld still be possible? Other examples or considerations in play?


Brother Ward, I'm skeptical about the assumption here. The one place I've really seen robomowers in action was at Brautarholt recently. That course is full of really funky landforms and also really tiny ponds/streams scattered all about. I'm just thinking these things are artificially-intelligent enough to be programmed to handle ribbons, fingers, and other obstacles. I don't know that for a fact, but it just seems like Brautarholt wouldn't work if they couldn't... and as far as I can tell, its fairways are completely robo-managed.
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Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2024, 02:26:11 PM »
The rate of uptake will probably be dependent on labor costs moving forward. If the ongoing cost of labor is raised by decreasing the supply of low cost immigrant labor these will become much easier to justify. Maybe even the risk of losing your labor force itself will be enough to spur the investment.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2024, 03:02:46 PM »
The rate of uptake will probably be dependent on labor costs moving forward. If the ongoing cost of labor is raised by decreasing the supply of low cost immigrant labor these will become much easier to justify. Maybe even the risk of losing your labor force itself will be enough to spur the investment.


That's certainly why they're used at Brautarholt, to speak to Jason's point. Labour in Iceland is extremely expensive, so the robots make perfect sense.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2024, 03:14:30 PM »
As an aside and not wishing to derail this discussion but machinery doesn’t always mean new machinery.
Many a golf course, especially courses with less funds available, survive based on secondhand maybe even thirdhand machinery.
It’ll be interesting to observe over time the life expectancy, replacement parts availability etc and the general re-use ability of robo-machinery. Plus more prosperous courses use trade-in funds as part of the process for obtaining new equipment.
Atb


There will inevitably be a time lag in courses investing in robotic machinery, but any club considering a brand new fairway or rough mower will seriously be considering moving over to automation. For the price of one traditional machine they can buy three robots. The cost savings in manpower and diesel fuel are immense.


I envisage new fairway and rough mowers being obsolete in the next five years and the big manufacturers ceasing production. This will eventually feed into the second hand market and good used machinery will become increasingly difficult to source.


It might take 15-20 years for all golf courses to be reliant on robots for routine mowing tasks but it's coming. 

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2024, 03:24:50 PM »
Agree with Duncan.

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2024, 05:00:09 PM »
So will this adopting technology drive golf course design and how? Or will the almighty algorithm save the day again and minimize the inherent obstacles of things like certain kinds of features like hazards, severe mounding, etc.
Here at Colleton River Dye course there is a plethora of smallish  steeply sided irregular mounding every where so I guess I will see what the equipment demonstration reveals?


"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2024, 05:33:09 PM »
"There will inevitably be a time lag in courses investing in robotic machinery, but any club considering a brand new fairway or rough mower will seriously be considering moving over to automation. For the price of one traditional machine they can buy three robots. The cost savings in manpower and diesel fuel are immense.

I envisage new fairway and rough mowers being obsolete in the next five years and the big manufacturers ceasing production. This will eventually feed into the second hand market and good used machinery will become increasingly difficult to source.

It might take 15-20 years for all golf courses to be reliant on robots for routine mowing tasks but it's coming."


For clubs without the budget for either will we see geofenced tags for sheep and possibly goats (or even geese) to manage rough instead?

They may be the most economical autonomous mowers out there for varied height healthy rough (dont mention that at Brora though!)

Brambles are experimenting (with physical fences) with their flock just now, but expect GPS collars to get cheaper over time.

One aspect of Autonomous Mowers that may not have been considered for wider usage is theft (especially for nightime usage).
Some parts of the UK already have a trail-bike and vandalism problem at nights
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 05:39:16 PM by Simon Barrington »

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2024, 05:46:38 PM »
I will definitely raise the livestocl option during the demo. I just hope the committe hasn't viewed Clarkson farms series
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2024, 06:05:55 PM »
One aspect of Autonomous Mowers that may not have been considered for wider usage is theft (especially for nightime usage).
Some parts of the UK already have a trail-bike and vandalism problem at nights


Sure, but the ability to 1) locate and 2) remotely control/disable such devices means that while you could steal/vandalize them for nuisance purposes, I doubt you could actually use/resell them, so theft might not be such an attractive option.

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2024, 07:13:40 PM »
The price point for autonomous mowers has dropped dramatically over the last 5 years. I got a small mower last January for about 2k. 3 yrs ago the price was about 5k. Prices are falling fast and I anticipate a steady decline for the near future.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2024, 07:47:11 PM »
The mowers in question from the original post are about 65% more than the traditional fwy unit. It also has a battery life that woundnt finish mowing a regulation golf course, even with 2-3 other units. This is with normal mow practices. Think about summertime scalping of bermudagrass…battery life will diminish much quicker than regular mowing. On top of that, they still require staff members to get them to and from area.


They all require a service for gps communication, too. I think that we are a ways off from seeing this really expanded outside the smaller units mowing rough. The upfront costs are a huge investment for 95% of clubs.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2024, 08:21:53 PM »
While we're at it lets eliminate the caddie program and force members to ride in carts.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2024, 12:26:49 AM »
While we're at it lets eliminate the caddie program and force members to ride in carts.


At my club our superintendent can barely find enough workers to maintain our course. Robots would be a great solution for us. I was at Oak Hill this year and they had a robot picking the range. I know the Country Club of Rochester was using some robot cutters a few years ago.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2024, 12:53:53 AM »
The mowers in question from the original post are about 65% more than the traditional fwy unit. It also has a battery life that woundnt finish mowing a regulation golf course, even with 2-3 other units. This is with normal mow practices. Think about summertime scalping of bermudagrass…battery life will diminish much quicker than regular mowing. On top of that, they still require staff members to get them to and from area.


They all require a service for gps communication, too. I think that we are a ways off from seeing this really expanded outside the smaller units mowing rough. The upfront costs are a huge investment for 95% of clubs.


You're referring to robotic reel mowers yes? If so, I agree that we need a few more years for the reel mowers, but areas that are mowed 0.75"+ (rough areas) with rotary mowers is there for the taking.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2024, 05:16:22 AM »
The mowers in question from the original post are about 65% more than the traditional fwy unit. It also has a battery life that woundnt finish mowing a regulation golf course, even with 2-3 other units. This is with normal mow practices. Think about summertime scalping of bermudagrass…battery life will diminish much quicker than regular mowing. On top of that, they still require staff members to get them to and from area.


They all require a service for gps communication, too. I think that we are a ways off from seeing this really expanded outside the smaller units mowing rough. The upfront costs are a huge investment for 95% of clubs.


You're referring to robotic reel mowers yes? If so, I agree that we need a few more years for the reel mowers, but areas that are mowed 0.75"+ (rough areas) with rotary mowers is there for the taking.


Correct. But the same mowers you are referencing will mow down at .400", but the quality of cut is poor & the aftercut appearance looks like the blades mowed rocks for a while. For roughs & ranges, makes sense.


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Autonomous mowers for golf | HUSQVARNA Philadelphia Cricket Club Testimonial


Trend? Fad? Or TBD? - Golf Course Industry
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2024, 05:38:42 AM »
What is more applicable for robotics-efficiency is the addition of GPS-controlled chemical and application sprayers. These are on the market now and do an especially good job on fairway areas.


I agree with Anthony. Robomowers are at least 1-2 generations from being reliably efficient at yielding fine grass cutting. They are great for range and ancillary grounds areas.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2024, 09:48:15 AM »
As an aside and not wishing to derail this discussion but machinery doesn’t always mean new machinery.
Many a golf course, especially courses with less funds available, survive based on secondhand maybe even thirdhand machinery.
It’ll be interesting to observe over time the life expectancy, replacement parts availability etc and the general re-use ability of robo-machinery. Plus more prosperous courses use trade-in funds as part of the process for obtaining new equipment.
Atb


Depending on the piece of equipment and its age/usage, I always feel that used equipment is a false economy. As a general rule I use around 2000-2500hrs as the point I don't want it anymore as at that point the maintenance ramps up exponentially or the expense stuff that is let go means that it is not running as effectively (as in production) or as safely as it should. I get that there is a market and need for them due to it being easier to swallow the lower purchase price and fix it as it goes rather than paying full whack.


As for the robots, right now there are two main types. The roomba type ones (thats the easiest description) that use razors to cut the turf and the recently launched Firefly which is the large reel mower thats more like what we traditionally use. I've demoed both and they are impressive. Anthonys links are great but there are a lot of variables in what they can and can't do. The biggest thing is as superintendents we have to rethink how we do things as the robots can make our traditional routines not as efficient. There are also many variables on the what works best where, but they are quickly getting there. For example -as Anthony mentioned - they can mow around 20 acres on a charge so generally not an entire course, however since they can run at night, and at odd times, it means that they can run more so in theory one machine can just keep lapping and mowing say 9 holes everyday than say 18 every other.


As Anthony mentioned the reel mower is about 60% more than its regular equivalent. I've demoed it and it is very impressive (on a side not the big boys are bringing out autonomous mowers soon too). When I did some quick math, in the mid Atlantic, labor is a wash over the 6-8 month season but there are some savings where they are run year round. The biggest savings are in fuel and servicing. There is very little to them and most of the parts are plug and play so they are easy to swap out. The (Samsung) battery is guaranteed to be at 80+% capacity after 7 years. The hydraulic motors etc on a regular machine start to wear sooner so I can see these machines lasting longer. The batteries are expensive but can be replaced so in theory you can replace the "engine" for say $30k after 8 years but since there are no other wear parts on them, in theory the rest of the machine will last longer too. The only long term maintenance item I might worry about is the brain running it but it looks like that can be swapped out easily enough too. Since it is computer based they are able to add more features without changing any hardware (and it's had a few big updates since I saw it in the spring). It's a very impressive machine and it'll be interesting to see how efficient they can become as people learn to use them most effectively.

The biggest labor saving is for those who are struggling to get labor as they can now do more things with limited staff.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2024, 10:04:31 AM by Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG »
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2024, 09:56:36 AM »

Brother Ward, I'm skeptical about the assumption here. The one place I've really seen robomowers in action was at Brautarholt recently. That course is full of really funky landforms and also really tiny ponds/streams scattered all about. I'm just thinking these things are artificially-intelligent enough to be programmed to handle ribbons, fingers, and other obstacles. I don't know that for a fact, but it just seems like Brautarholt wouldn't work if they couldn't... and as far as I can tell, its fairways are completely robo-managed.



They're geofenced. Right now the mow area is mapped out, uploaded into it and it then operates within that area. Depending on the machine they handle working in the geofence differently. The razor machines can just do a quick turn whereas the big reel mower can act like a regular one lifting up and turning. You can set the mow pattern and let it know how you want it cut. One neat thing with the reel mower is that it can skip lines and mow every other which means it has bigger turns which is easier on the turf and makes it more efficient, once it does one set of lines it knows where it was and can then mow the skipped ones.







Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2024, 10:05:45 AM »
What is more applicable for robotics-efficiency is the addition of GPS-controlled chemical and application sprayers. These are on the market now and do an especially good job on fairway areas.


I agree with Anthony. Robomowers are at least 1-2 generations from being reliably efficient at yielding fine grass cutting. They are great for range and ancillary grounds areas.


I've used GPS sprayers for over 10 years. They consistently save about 15% on large areas and the accuracy means the product goes where you want it so there is no damage or waste.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2024, 10:13:02 AM »
We are investigating large scale automated mowing equipment at our course and a recent tour event was ballyhooed as a site where this efficiency initiative is in use.
Got me wondering as a question for the archies and other brethren how and how much will new and renovation design accomodate this labor saving evolution?
For instance I recently played a course in Pinehurst whose overwhelming feature relied on large irregularly ( and to me unnecassary) placed bunkers in all areas of the golf hole which produced many fingers and ribbons of turf clearly not favorable to robomowing. Granted there still remained larger areas of grass to so some incremental gains woiuld still be possible? Other examples or considerations in play?


They can be programmed to work around anything but there are limitations right now as in (depending on the machine) they can't travel from one work area to another so it may need another machine for a small zone etc but the geo fencing will ensure they stay where they're supposed to be. Depending on the machine and the type of satellite correction it uses, the accuracy can be under an inch, which is very important for the edges between say the fine turf and the rough.


They can "see" using cameras so in theory can operate around golf as there won't be an operator in danger of getting hit. The biggest issue is they can't move an obstacle (like a branch). They'll alert an operator with a text and they can override it or have it go around until someone moves the obstacle.


I think that they help in course design as in time with the efficiencies they will allow bigger areas to be maintained that will allow architects get more creative.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2024, 11:20:38 AM »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Chris Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2024, 11:23:18 AM »
This is a fascinating topic!


I'm curious how big the "market" is in terms of annual sales?





The rate of uptake will probably be dependent on labor costs moving forward. If the ongoing cost of labor is raised by decreasing the supply of low cost immigrant labor these will become much easier to justify. Maybe even the risk of losing your labor force itself will be enough to spur the investment.






Is this really a concern?
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Robomowing and future design
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2024, 02:09:36 PM »
In October I played Jeffersonville GC in PA and was surprised to see a small robotic mower that seemed to be cutting grass around tree trunks in the rough.


Kinda creepy since it was almost as if it were following us around for several holes.   Must have been rolling over the bridges on brooks etc.
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