The Lido (Wisconsin)

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have never played a course that required more thought and better execution. Fortunately, I hit my tee ball where I wanted it to go and got up and down 3 out of five times from green-side bunkers and was not in a fairway bunker.

Tommy


You refer to never having played a course that required more thought - who was doing the thinking, you or your caddy ?


Also, you played different tees to your playing partners - what was the reason ? Are there forced carries on the further back tees that you couldn't carry ?


Niall

I am 78 years old and don't need to play the same tees as a 50-year-old. Certainly my caddie told me what was out there, and a couple of times he said, "Hit it there." Most of the time he gave me options and told me the risks and rewards.

[John Challenger]

When I played the complete 18 holes at The Lido for the first time in October 2022, it felt unique and unlike any other golf course in the world, even though by definition imitative. Each additional visit has confirmed that impression. The greens, including some built on a massive scale, are architectural masterpieces. Other newly created courses designed to echo Golden Age principles still feel modern. The Lido feels ancient. I felt some intimations of St. Andrews, or as if I was playing a "found" course on land from the bottom of an extinct, treeless ocean. I believe the reason it feels so instantly authentic is because it is history's first golf course clone.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I was going to begin a new thread, but I'll comment here. Lido is one of the best courses I have ever played. I played it with three very good friends who are 25 years younger than I am. We played different tees and hit it different lengths. There are a half dozen shot options off the tees, depending on how far you hit it or how much of a chance you are willing to take. My caddie told me to trust him and forget what the other guys were doing. They would hit it in one direction, and I was told to hit it 20 degrees left or right or lay up in front of the trap. Once you commit to a shot, you have to execute it because the penalty for missing your line is great. Shots into the greens were demanding. They were firm. The younger guys hit it high and could stop the ball, On most of the holes, I could run it up. On other holes, I had to hit it short. Since the scorecard does not have numbers, I can't remember which hole is which. For instance, the tee shot over the little lake is one thing, but the fortress green is amazing. The other guys could hit it on the green. I could have made the green, but my shot would have bounded over. I laid up and had a sand wedge into a green that had a castle in front of it.


I have never played a course that required more thought and better execution. Fortunately, I hit my tee ball where I wanted it to go and got up and down 3 out of five times from green-side bunkers and was not in a fairway bunker.


Every other course is boring compared to Lido. And it was fun. The round is in my top ten most fun days on a golf course.


Hopefully, Daryl Boe will comment. We played it together.

Tommy


Great assessment and your experience was similar to mine. Not sure I've played a course, maybe Prairie Dunes, where I had to think of the conservative plays more due to my lack of distance. I played with Dan Moore and two other guys who were long hitters and I played almost every hole differently than they did with decent results. The one time I got aggressive was on 18 and decided to challenge the center line bunker instead of going left and playing smart. I missed covering the bunker by a yard or so and finished with an 8. Certainly a course where a good caddie is a must

[Jeff Schley]

Is there anyone still alive that played the original Lido?  Has anyone here ever actually met/talked to someone who played it? Was right around WWII so unfortunately we are losing them quickly each day.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I was going to begin a new thread, but I'll comment here. Lido is one of the best courses I have ever played. I played it with three very good friends who are 25 years younger than I am. We played different tees and hit it different lengths. There are a half dozen shot options off the tees, depending on how far you hit it or how much of a chance you are willing to take. My caddie told me to trust him and forget what the other guys were doing. They would hit it in one direction, and I was told to hit it 20 degrees left or right or lay up in front of the trap. Once you commit to a shot, you have to execute it because the penalty for missing your line is great. Shots into the greens were demanding. They were firm. The younger guys hit it high and could stop the ball, On most of the holes, I could run it up. On other holes, I had to hit it short. Since the scorecard does not have numbers, I can't remember which hole is which. For instance, the tee shot over the little lake is one thing, but the fortress green is amazing. The other guys could hit it on the green. I could have made the green, but my shot would have bounded over. I laid up and had a sand wedge into a green that had a castle in front of it.


I have never played a course that required more thought and better execution. Fortunately, I hit my tee ball where I wanted it to go and got up and down 3 out of five times from green-side bunkers and was not in a fairway bunker.


Every other course is boring compared to Lido. And it was fun. The round is in my top ten most fun days on a golf course.


Hopefully, Daryl Boe will comment. We played it together.

Tommy


Great assessment and your experience was similar to mine. Not sure I've played a course, maybe Prairie Dunes, where I had to think of the conservative plays more due to my lack of distance. I played with Dan Moore and two other guys who were long hitters and I played almost every hole differently than they did with decent results. The one time I got aggressive was on 18 and decided to challenge the center line bunker instead of going left and playing smart. I missed covering the bunker by a yard or so and finished with an 8. Certainly a course where a good caddie is a must

Ryan, I challenged the center bunker on 18. It was a bit low and just crept over the bunker. I had 220 in. My caddie handed me the driver and said, "Give it a whack." I hit it to ten feet. One of the best shots I ever hit. Fortunately the pin was in a little valley, and the last thirty yards were downhill.

[Tim_Weiman]

Is there anyone still alive that played the original Lido?  Has anyone here ever actually met/talked to someone who played it? Was right around WWII so unfortunately we are losing them quickly each day.

Jeff,


I would be surprised if there was anyone who played the original, but back in the 1950s there was a TV show “What’s My Line” and there was a guest one day with an incredible story:


He was at Ford’s Theatre when Abraham Lincoln was shot.

[Joel_Stewart]

Age is getting to me and the sand surface between tees and fairway was still fairly soft (no carts were allowed as they would get bogged down in softer sections of this sand). 

I played it a few days ago at 2pm after playing Mammoth in the morning.  It was close to 90 with humidity and maybe a 2 club wind.  I'm in my 60s and it wore me out.


The staff is out there putting in the walking paths between the tees and fairways and hopefully they'll be done by the end of the year. It's definitely a hard walk currently.


I started out with a birdie on #1 and then 2 straight bogeys and then came the Channel hole.  I'm not sure if its the hardest hole I've played but 9 strokes later I felt defeated. It's certainly a unique hole with a tremendous green.


I did an entire story on my Instagram page just on the bunkers.  Oakmont might be the only course that I've seen where the bunkers are as intimidating. With that said they are visual art.


The 18th has a huge green, maybe 25,000 square feet with a few tiers.  The pin was in the back and of course I hit driver - 5 iron onto the front and 4 putts later walked off in a daze.


The fairways and greens are in great shape but it definitely needs more time to grow in.


There is not a range at Lido so if you want to warm up, use one of the other areas.  The practice putting green was not open last week but is really close to opening. There's plenty of merchandise in the current pro shop.


My take is that if you're over a 12 handicap you're in for some pain.


It's definitely a site to see with land formations you probably have never seen.

[Peter Flory]

OK Tom and Tommy (and Brian) this has moved to the top of my must-play list.  Is 2023 the year to play or does the course need more seasoning?

Keith, not sure if anyone answered this yet.  It's in really good shape right now.  You won't get a bad lie out there... which is really hard to believe since it's only been about 12 months since the last holes were grassed.  I would say that the seasoning will probably result in some firmer conditions just short of the greens and it will definitely involve some maturation of the waste areas/ fescue/ whatever other grasses that get planted.  But no reason to hold off in my opinion. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

I played two rounds at the Lido yesterday and Tuesday.
Simply mind-bendingly spectacular.


- Greens were HARD and very quick, especially in the pm round on Tuesday. Caddies said that, in the last 3 weeks or so, the greens have really strated to get spicy.


- Greens are slippery as hell and you really need to pay attention to run-outs and landing distances. If you take yardage and hit that club, you will be chipping back from behind the green every time.


- Caddies said that the White tees are preferred even for low hdcp-ers (6350 or so) but i had flip wedges and even some long putts off-green on many holes.


- As noted above, if you are a 10+ hdcp, this course will eat you and (again) caddies say that many resort guests walk off shaking their heads as the 9-bagger from Wichita leaves with a 94 that included multi-shots in bunkers, five 4-putts and a feeling that the course played you.


- played with a member of a noted CBM/Raynor course and he said Lido beats his course "16-2" in "Match Play" hole-to hole.


- there always seems to be at least 2-3 ways to play every hole which i loved and I have never seen a course where angles off tee play such a vital role in scoring. The 9th is a perfect example: 9th green can be driven with a precise tee shot. FW is wide and if you go down far right side, the entire green opens up. But if you are short and left, it is VERY hard to hold the green at all and instead a player must aim for front right where a 30-60' putt for birdie awaits.


I could easily see guests carding 77s on Mammoth then posting a 95 on Lido...;-)


If you drive the ball accurately and avoid the FW bunkers and you have golf IQ to manage your approach shots with run-outs, the Lido is as an enjoyable and intellectually challenging course as I have ever seen.

[Jerry Kluger]

I played Lido after playing Mammoth Dunes one day and Sand Valley the next and I found it very difficult as my 10 handicap is not based on long drives and towering approach shots.  My short game is my strength and bailed me out when it still mattered on a particular hole. I had skimmed through George Bahto's book before I left on my trip to try and I thought the Cape hole was how MacDonald had originally envisioned it to be - the angle was the shot at the green and not the angle off the tee.   


I did a preview round at Sedge Valley and the 12 holes I played were a hoot and should be very well received by the resort guests. I believe it was number 5 that is a par 3 and immediately to the left of the green is the tee for number six which plays in the opposite direction and is a short par 4 so those playing on 6 can see the play on number 5 and vice versa which will be especially fun if the respective groups know each other.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I was going to begin a new thread, but I'll comment here. Lido is one of the best courses I have ever played. I played it with three very good friends who are 25 years younger than I am. We played different tees and hit it different lengths. There are a half dozen shot options off the tees, depending on how far you hit it or how much of a chance you are willing to take. My caddie told me to trust him and forget what the other guys were doing. They would hit it in one direction, and I was told to hit it 20 degrees left or right or lay up in front of the trap. Once you commit to a shot, you have to execute it because the penalty for missing your line is great. Shots into the greens were demanding. They were firm. The younger guys hit it high and could stop the ball, On most of the holes, I could run it up. On other holes, I had to hit it short. Since the scorecard does not have numbers, I can't remember which hole is which. For instance, the tee shot over the little lake is one thing, but the fortress green is amazing. The other guys could hit it on the green. I could have made the green, but my shot would have bounded over. I laid up and had a sand wedge into a green that had a castle in front of it.


I have never played a course that required more thought and better execution. Fortunately, I hit my tee ball where I wanted it to go and got up and down 3 out of five times from green-side bunkers and was not in a fairway bunker.


Every other course is boring compared to Lido. And it was fun. The round is in my top ten most fun days on a golf course.


Hopefully, Daryl Boe will comment. We played it together.

Tommy


Great assessment and your experience was similar to mine. Not sure I've played a course, maybe Prairie Dunes, where I had to think of the conservative plays more due to my lack of distance. I played with Dan Moore and two other guys who were long hitters and I played almost every hole differently than they did with decent results. The one time I got aggressive was on 18 and decided to challenge the center line bunker instead of going left and playing smart. I missed covering the bunker by a yard or so and finished with an 8. Certainly a course where a good caddie is a must

Ryan, I challenged the center bunker on 18. It was a bit low and just crept over the bunker. I had 220 in. My caddie handed me the driver and said, "Give it a whack." I hit it to ten feet. One of the best shots I ever hit. Fortunately the pin was in a little valley, and the last thirty yards were downhill.

I have been a little remiss in not responding to this thread earlier, but I can tell you I am a bit behind on many things.  Hopefully once I get my daughters wedding behind us this weekend I will catch back up on life and comment a little more on what was an EPIC day and week in the upper Midwest!.


A couple of quick thoughts...


My first quick thought is that the driver off the deck that you hit on 18 (Tommy) was one of the best shots I have seen by a mere mortal, and something I will never forget either!


And the shot options and lines of play were incredible.  I felt at various times a mixture of Chicago Golf Club, National, and a little bit of Black Creek in TN mixed in (the Punchbowl approach for sure).  Fantastic place!

[Tom_Doak]

OK Tom and Tommy (and Brian) this has moved to the top of my must-play list.  Is 2023 the year to play or does the course need more seasoning?

Keith, not sure if anyone answered this yet.  It's in really good shape right now.  You won't get a bad lie out there... which is really hard to believe since it's only been about 12 months since the last holes were grassed.  I would say that the seasoning will probably result in some firmer conditions just short of the greens and it will definitely involve some maturation of the waste areas/ fescue/ whatever other grasses that get planted.  But no reason to hold off in my opinion.

The course is likely as firm this summer as it will ever be, because there is so little thatch underneath the greens when they are new.  Next year, they will hold a little better.  It will also be an easier walk next year once they get the walking paths straight.

[Will Thrasher]

Wow - excellent pics. Place looks unreal.

I was fortunate to play it back in mid-May and Peter Flory was in my group. I had a wonderful (stepping back in) time.


Avoid those fairway bunkers!


Hole-by-hole tour is here:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Lido/index.html

[Jeff Fortson]

I played The Lido yesterday. 


It is instantly in my personal Top 10 I have played.  I have admittedly only had a sideline interest in The Lido for all the years it has been talked about in this forum and others.  I really underestimated how incredible it was.  The Lido is a must play if you are fortunate enough to get out there. 


Well done to Tom Doak, his team, Peter Flory, and all involved with it.  I had more fun yesterday than I have had almost anywhere at any time in my golf experiences.

[Tommy Williamsen]

OK Tom and Tommy (and Brian) this has moved to the top of my must-play list.  Is 2023 the year to play or does the course need more seasoning?

Keith, not sure if anyone answered this yet.  It's in really good shape right now.  You won't get a bad lie out there... which is really hard to believe since it's only been about 12 months since the last holes were grassed.  I would say that the seasoning will probably result in some firmer conditions just short of the greens and it will definitely involve some maturation of the waste areas/ fescue/ whatever other grasses that get planted.  But no reason to hold off in my opinion.

The course is likely as firm this summer as it will ever be, because there is so little thatch underneath the greens when they are new.  Next year, they will hold a little better.  It will also be an easier walk next year once they get the walking paths straight.

The greens were not soft, and I didn't fix many ball marks, but I thought they held my shots into the greens fine. We played at 8am so that might have made a difference.

[Jeff Fortson]

The greens, including some built on a massive scale, are architectural masterpieces. Other newly created courses designed to echo Golden Age principles still feel modern. The Lido feels ancient. I felt some intimations of St. Andrews, or as if I was playing a "found" course on land from the bottom of an extinct, treeless ocean. I believe the reason it feels so instantly authentic is because it is history's first golf course clone.

This nails it. Well said.

[Ian Mackenzie]

OK Tom and Tommy (and Brian) this has moved to the top of my must-play list.  Is 2023 the year to play or does the course need more seasoning?

Keith, not sure if anyone answered this yet.  It's in really good shape right now.  You won't get a bad lie out there... which is really hard to believe since it's only been about 12 months since the last holes were grassed.  I would say that the seasoning will probably result in some firmer conditions just short of the greens and it will definitely involve some maturation of the waste areas/ fescue/ whatever other grasses that get planted.  But no reason to hold off in my opinion.

The course is likely as firm this summer as it will ever be, because there is so little thatch underneath the greens when they are new.  Next year, they will hold a little better.  It will also be an easier walk next year once they get the walking paths straight.

The greens were not soft, and I didn't fix many ball marks, but I thought they held my shots into the greens fine. We played at 8am so that might have made a difference.

I played one round at 430 pm and one at 700 am first out.
Night and day difference in the greens.


In the pm, the greens were fiery and firm AF (as the kids say today).
In the am, they were more manageable and approach shots held better with a bit of dew.

[J_ Crisham]

I played it this past Saturday afternoon and again early Sunday morning. Saturday was a south wind sustained at 20 mph . Sunday was about 10 mph from the north. The south wind was much more difficult as the redan and short were hard to hold downwind and the par 5's were dead into the wind . The channel hole was very difficult to cover the water with a second shot. Greens were rock hard and rolled very true. The walking paths are greatly improved with the addition of gravel. It's one heck of a brawny track. If you don't like being surprised with your seemingly perfect tee shot landing in a hidden fairway bunker this probably isn't going to be your cup of tea. Alps, punchbowl, and channel holes were my favorites. I loved Lido.

[Jeff Taylor]

Ok.Ok. You win.
I am going.
What is the best way to get there (airports, car vs. shuttle, what order of courses to play).
Thanks.
JT

[Jerry Kluger]

Jeff: There are many airports you can fly into but usually that involves at least one connection.  I would suggest that if you have the time you should fly into O'Hare and stop at Lawsonia in one direction and perhaps Kohler in the other direction although the courses there have gotten very expensive.  I have heard some good things about The Bull at Pinehurst Farms which is public and not too expensive and can be a stop in the other direction.

[Marty Bonnar]

Apologies if this had been asked already (maybe even by me - I'm getting old and forgetful!)
How much of Peter's Computer/GPS data was used on the ground? Were the Dozer blades GPS-controlled?
I'm sure there was waaaay much more artistry involved than that, but just curious how the computer model manifested itself in the dirt.
F.

[Tom_Doak]

Apologies if this had been asked already (maybe even by me - I'm getting old and forgetful!)
How much of Peter's Computer/GPS data was used on the ground? Were the Dozer blades GPS-controlled?
I'm sure there was waaaay much more artistry involved than that, but just curious how the computer model manifested itself in the dirt.
F.

Marty:


We used the data to get something on the ground, and then refined where we felt was necessary.  In a couple of instances, we refined the computer model and did the GPS thing again; in others, we re-shaped something and then surveyed it so that the GPS could put it back if the sand blew around before irrigation [which happened a LOT and is one of the best uses of the technology IMO].


I do not believe that the dozer blade was CONTROLLED by the GPS, rather, the GPS showed the operator what to do.  But I might be wrong about that.  The two GPS operators were not my own crew, but Craig Haltom's crew.


We also had an aerial photo reconciled with the GPS and found in some cases that the computer model didn't match up exactly; in those cases we adjusted the bunker edges to the aerial.


When the first couple of greens came out kind of flat-looking by the standards of other Macdonald/Raynor courses I've seen, I asked Peter how he did his green contours in the model, and he said his data was not good enough to interpret to the inch, so we started making more adjustments as we went.  [The aerial photo, the plasticine model and the computer model were all good for showing us where the contours were, but not necessarily how big they were.  And depending on the lighting of the aerial photo, some contours did not show up as well as others:  if there's a shadow from the south, greens that are sloping down from north to south don't show up as well as greens sloping south to north.]


The two weaknesses of the computer model were two things that video games do not have to worry about:
1.  Green to tee walks.  Peter had missed the walk path from the 12th green to the 13th, because when you putt out on a computer game, you just pop up on the next tee!
2.  Drainage!  This was a more significant problem as the green contours often poured the drainage down the faces of the surrounding bunkers, and even as sandy as our site was, that's a problem when it rains really heavily.  So we had to decide whether to adjust contours to alleviate the problem, secure in the knowledge that the original course probably drained better than the computer model.

[Marty Bonnar]

Thanks for that, Tom. Very enlightening!
We’ve used Contractors with GPS-controlled blades in the past - for forming perfectly flat football pitches! 🤪
On other projects with more ‘artistic’ earthmoving, I’ve spent many a happy hour watching guys with blades and tilting buckets on their excavators in complete awe. Their control of the machine is like us mere mortals moving our hands through sand on the beach.
F.

[Kurt Everett]

I'll be in the Dells area end of next week in case a group is looking for a 4th at The Lido next Friday morning.
I know it's a longshot but just throwing it out there as I have a gap in my schedule.
Kurt

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ok.Ok. You win.
I am going.
What is the best way to get there (airports, car vs. shuttle, what order of courses to play).
Thanks.
JT

Jeff, Lido is a private club, but Sand Valley sells a few (4 or 5?) tee times in the afternoon. I believe they are sold out through 2024.