Help me with an argument against pin sheets and pin location flags

[Tim Martin]

I come down on the side of having the pin position available and if you don't want to use it, then don't.

+1-The only things that will give exact yardage are rangefinders and pin sheets if you want to do the math. The red, white and blue flags will give you help on the depth but not exact yardage.

[Michael Whitaker]

Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb

+1
David - I’m old enough remember when my local courses had no yardage indicators of any kind. Eventually, some courses installed 150 yard bushes on the sides of the fairways. The posh courses railed against this as “not true to the spirit of the game.” But, when laser measurement from sprinkler heads was introduced the posh clubs were the only ones who could afford it… so, they all jumped on the bandwagon as it made them “special.”  We started down a slippery slope. Golfers started wanting more and more information, and depending less and less on their eyes and judgment. Then, the USGA started requiring every score be posted with them for handicapping purposes. Now, everyone is so focused on “score” in the States that removing “little white flags” creates a major brew hahaha.


I read an article once (Golf Digest I think) where an experiment was done with a group of high handicappers. All the flagsticks were removed from the course and the players had no idea where the holes were located. The group played an average of 3-5 shots better than their handicaps! They played to the center of the greens instead of shooting at pins and had fewer really bad outcomes. What does that say about pin sheets, rangefinders and “little white flags?”

[Carl Rogers]

Riverfront by TD & team by subtlely manipulating the ground plane and green slopes would create some real depth perception challenges without the little flags on the flagsticks and eliminating distance markers on the sprinkler heads.

[Carl Johnson]

We use daily pin sheets in the golf carts or on paper the walking golfer can carry.  On a number of uphill holes they're useful to tell whether the pin is toward the back of the green or the front.  On the other hand, on one of the holes you can check out the location from the previous hole's tee, and in the other cases I guess you could walk or drive up to the green to check the location before returning to hit your approach shot.  Bottom line, I like the pin sheets, particularly when they are reasonable accurate.

[Mark_Fine]

Range finders are being used at the PGA Championship in an attempt to speed up play.  Not sure if it has helped given the weather has probably negated much improvement plus the caddies do so much scouting of the course they know yardages from every spot out there. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Back in the day, I remember playing Sunnybrook GC in Plymouth Meeting, PA when there were no yardage markers on the course; however, there was a separate card giving yardage to the green  by numbering various trees on the card. Very unique. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Back in the day, I remember playing Sunnybrook GC in Plymouth Meeting, PA when there were no yardage markers on the course; however, there was a separate card giving yardage to the green by numbering various trees on the card. Very unique.

Yes, Steve, immovable items on the course were great judgement points for distance. I remember that there were certain trees or rocks that determined which club to hit... "7-iron from the large rock on the left of #10", etc. Of course, you had to play a course quite a few times to figure all this out as we didn't have caddies down South  .

[Bill Brightly]

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[/size]They are quite inobtrusive, I'd let it go. (Do the big red baskets at Merion drive you nuts for messing with "the clean look of the green"? )

No Stewart, as I'm sure you know, the red baskets at Merion harken back to a time when the grounds crew left their lunch safely in the basket... How could I NOT love that?

[Duncan Cheslett]

From a greenkeeper's point of view different coloured flags for front, middle, and back are a pain in the arse.


When the new head guy at the muni where I work took over the first thing he did was remove all the white flags and throw them in the bin. We reverted to the traditional red out and yellow in.


The low handicap members went ballistic, but he stood his ground. Our job in the summer is to mow grass, change holes,  and rake bunkers. Not mess about with different coloured flags!


It's worked. They all seem to have forgotten about it now!

[Jeff Segol]

If I don't have something to give me an idea of distance, I don't enjoy the round. That last happened at Copper Valley (formerly Saddle Creek) last summer. I forgot my Skycaddie, and the course had just been taken over by the membership from Castle and Cooke, and among other issues, a lot of the sprinkler caps, which normally would have yardages on them, were missing. If I don't have some idea whether the club I have in my hand is the right one for the distance, I don't make a confident swing, and don't play as well. As far as I'm concerned, having something, a sprnkler-head, or a fairway marker or a yardage book or my device, gives me one less thing to think about, other than making a good swing. I use Aim Point for the same reason, because it's better to have a definite target in terms of making a quality stroke. I actually use the original charts, which apparently were too involved for the pros to read, and I do put better using it, especially from inside 10 feet. Your mileage may vary.

[Ally Mcintosh]

If I don't have something to give me an idea of distance, I don't enjoy the round. That last happened at Copper Valley (formerly Saddle Creek) last summer. I forgot my Skycaddie, and the course had just been taken over by the membership from Castle and Cooke, and among other issues, a lot of the sprinkler caps, which normally would have yardages on them, were missing. If I don't have some idea whether the club I have in my hand is the right one for the distance, I don't make a confident swing, and don't play as well. As far as I'm concerned, having something, a sprnkler-head, or a fairway marker or a yardage book or my device, gives me one less thing to think about, other than making a good swing. I use Aim Point for the same reason, because it's better to have a definite target in terms of making a quality stroke. I actually use the original charts, which apparently were too involved for the pros to read, and I do put better using it, especially from inside 10 feet. Your mileage may vary.

Jeff,


Agreed the horse has bolted somewhat. But if you grew up playing before all this was available to you - and they never made it available - it wouldn’t affect your swing in the slightest.


It’s remarkable how quickly all this stuff became normalised. I still consider myself a young fella’ (relatively) and even I remember when I first came across a course that put three discs in the fairway to show 100, 150 & 200 yards to the middle. Before that there was nothing.

[Thomas Dai]

Perhaps courses should place advertisements on pin sheets and yardage indicators?
May I suggest that adverts for opticians and eye doctors would be particularly appropriate!
atb

[Michael Whitaker]

If I don't have something to give me an idea of distance, I don't enjoy the round. That last happened at Copper Valley (formerly Saddle Creek) last summer. I forgot my Skycaddie, and the course had just been taken over by the membership from Castle and Cooke, and among other issues, a lot of the sprinkler caps, which normally would have yardages on them, were missing. If I don't have some idea whether the club I have in my hand is the right one for the distance, I don't make a confident swing, and don't play as well. As far as I'm concerned, having something, a sprnkler-head, or a fairway marker or a yardage book or my device, gives me one less thing to think about, other than making a good swing. I use Aim Point for the same reason, because it's better to have a definite target in terms of making a quality stroke. I actually use the original charts, which apparently were too involved for the pros to read, and I do put better using it, especially from inside 10 feet. Your mileage may vary.

Jeff,


Agreed the horse has bolted somewhat. But if you grew up playing before all this was available to you - and they never made it available - it wouldn’t affect your swing in the slightest.


It’s remarkable how quickly all this stuff became normalised. I still consider myself a young fella’ (relatively) and even I remember when I first came across a course that put three discs in the fairway to show 100, 150 & 200 yards to the middle. Before that there was nothing.

Ally - I fear these guys who are so dependent on outside assistance and advice in golf would have distance markings painted all over a basketball court so Steph Curry could “make a quality stroke.” It’s the difference between playing “golf” and playing “golf swing.” Why they ever leave the driving range is beyond me.

[Mark_Fine]

This all stems from watching the Professionals.  No one wants bifurcation of the game.  All golfers know the pros know every yardage and every hole location before they play a shot (no matter how long it takes for them to figure it out).  Why shouldn’t the average golfer have the same info?  The pros figured out this information even before range finders and pin sheets and different color flags etc were used/available. Most of these things were added for amateurs to speed up play.  It is still a very hard game for most so why make it even harder for the amateurs?[/size]

[Jeff Segol]

A few replies:


Ally-"if" is the longest two-letter word in the dictionary. You may be right that I would feel differently if I hadn't grown up as a golfer using those resources, but I did, to the point that at the one course that doesn't have them (Sharp Park), I actually made my own yardage book, so I would have something to refer to. This also reflects the fact that, as an American golfer, I want to try to shoot my best score every time, and knowing my distance helps that, so getting a device once they became available was a no brainer, especially since it's faster than walking off a yardage from a sprinkler head. I get that golfers across the pond may not/do not approach the game that way. More power to you.


Regarding the attempted parallel between me and Steph Curry, it doesn't hold water. As many golf instructors have pointed out, target-focused games where you have to stand to the side of the ball, like golf, are much more difficult than games where you sight the target from behind the ball, as in basketball. To carry the analogy forward, if basketball rules were changed so that only hook shots were permitted, the leading scorer would probably average about 12 ppg.


I also want to note generally that much of the instruction I've read about course management says that it's important to know how far you hit your clubs. If that's the case, isn't logical to also know how far you have to the target? Obviously, one makes adjustments for weather conditions, etc., but denying people the information seems petty. Also, if the GOAT (Jack Nicklaus) thought having yardages helped him, should the rest of us be denied that.


This is all a separate issue from pace-of-play. If I'm slow, penalize me or kick me off the course, and I'll have to figure what things I want to do differently to play faster. Don't dictate to me what those things should be. That's Putin/Trump golf.

[Mike Wagner]

A few replies:


Ally-"if" is the longest two-letter word in the dictionary. You may be right that I would feel differently if I hadn't grown up as a golfer using those resources, but I did, to the point that at the one course that doesn't have them (Sharp Park), I actually made my own yardage book, so I would have something to refer to. This also reflects the fact that, as an American golfer, I want to try to shoot my best score every time, and knowing my distance helps that, so getting a device once they became available was a no brainer, especially since it's faster than walking off a yardage from a sprinkler head. I get that golfers across the pond may not/do not approach the game that way. More power to you.


Regarding the attempted parallel between me and Steph Curry, it doesn't hold water. As many golf instructors have pointed out, target-focused games where you have to stand to the side of the ball, like golf, are much more difficult than games where you sight the target from behind the ball, as in basketball. To carry the analogy forward, if basketball rules were changed so that only hook shots were permitted, the leading scorer would probably average about 12 ppg.


I also want to note generally that much of the instruction I've read about course management says that it's important to know how far you hit your clubs. If that's the case, isn't logical to also know how far you have to the target? Obviously, one makes adjustments for weather conditions, etc., but denying people the information seems petty. Also, if the GOAT (Jack Nicklaus) thought having yardages helped him, should the rest of us be denied that.


This is all a separate issue from pace-of-play. If I'm slow, penalize me or kick me off the course, and I'll have to figure what things I want to do differently to play faster. Don't dictate to me what those things should be. That's Putin/Trump golf.

Since you brought it up, I'd love to hear specific examples of things the prior administration dictated in your life.  I can think of a few things that have ACTUALLY been dictated the last 3 years.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I don’t care who brought it up, could we not discuss it?


Rather let’s continue the passionate discussion about why little flags on a flagstick are / are not stupid.

[Mike Wagner]

I don’t care who brought it up, could we not discuss it?


Rather let’s continue the passionate discussion about why little flags on a flagstick are / are not stupid.

Well, it wasn't directed at you, and I would genuinely like to know the answer ... since he used those words. I find it very interesting.


As far as the little flags are concerned, I'm not sure anyone would find them "stupid." They're either informative to some, or not so much. I personally don't have too strong an opinion with the reliance on range finders these days. I do consider pin sheets to be a waste of time. I play a lot of tournaments and have used it once or twice I can remember over the last couple years. Now, if I go back over history, I grew up with 150 bushes and eye balled and occasionally paced. Flags had a flag or wiffle ball on them to show front, back, or middle. Those days are gone and range finders are the standard. Things evolve, but it seemed a simpler time and people actually played quicker back then. Probably a psyche thing that as we got the easy access to the info, the more worried about precision we became .. and people started to laser 37 yards, 42 yards, etc .. and maybe it really slowed things down. End of the day, the 150 markers and front back middle days were my favorite. There was more soul involved.

[Craig Sweet]

I think it boils down to how much information you need.  I'm happy with knowing how far to the middle of the green.  OW does use a 150yd pole, and I can work off from that. But, if you know how far you hit each club, that's all the info you need.