The World Handicap System. Is it Good? (Moved from the BUDA thread)

[Jon Wiggett]

Well?

[Ulrich Mayring]

Here's the apparently contentious part from the horse's mouth:

https://www.randa.org/en/worldhandicapsystem/inclusiveandaccessible

If you accept the premise of inclusivity and accessibility, then the system is certainly appropriate. But I find it interesting that these key objectives aren't discussed at all. They don't say WHY these key objectives were chosen.

Ulrich

[Mark Pearce]

Even that article doesn't try to argue that the new system will be better than CONGU at identifying the correct allowance between two players in competitive play, which, surely, is the fundamental purpose of a handicap.  Basically this is yet another dumbing down of the game.

[Sean_A]

The interesting thing in the UK is that the EGU used to offer a handicap service for golfers who didn't belong to clubs. The idea sounded grand in theory, but the scrutiny of score attesting wasn't possible to achieve. Plus, the EGU in part is meant to serve member clubs. It didn't make a lot of sense to give a reason not to join a club when memberships were trending downward.


Anyway, I think a world system is bad news because it attempts to jam several different golf cultures and histories into one no size fits all box.


The US experiment of inclusiveness clearly demonstrates that the concept is not necessary for handicapping because the vast majority of US golfers do their thing without a care in the world for an official handicap. In a very real sense the US is an outlier of major golf countries because the vast majority of golfers do not belong to a club.


Anyway, the new system is coming, its a done deal because the USGA and R&A know best. My question is how are the first 20 scores generated? For instance, in the UK are they going to use the last 20 posted scores or seek 20 new scores to issue a new handicap?


Ciao

[Niall C]

"Accommodating Local Golfing Cultures

It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS."


They certainly don't seem to think they are going down the route of homogenization but I tend to think the law of unintended consequences could end up playing a part.

What's the use of a WHS anyway ? Surely only of any relevance to elite golfers who make up an infinitesimal percentage of world golf.

Niall

[Mark Pearce]

What's the use of a WHS anyway ? Surely only of any relevance to elite golfers who make up an infinitesimal percentage of world golf.

And who play scratch golf anyway.  So for them it's just a number to qualify for top tournaments. 

[Sean_A]

I do wonder how much big amateur events come into play. There is always a handicap limit and I believe at least sometimes lower caps are given priority when over-subscribed.

I have heard complaints from very English ams that they are not getting into comps because US players are raking up spots with handicaps which aren't as accurate as some would like.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I've been in Africa the past two weeks, and fielded several questions about this, as clubs there are all trying to adapt.


Several courses were setting up new tees for their courses because of a footnote in the handicap system that says that each set of tee markers should be at least 300 meters separate from the others.  The clubs thought this was a requirement that meant they needed to build new tees.  I told them I'd never heard of it and that there were certainly clubs in the USA where that wasn't the case.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I think "should" is a general recommendation and as such it does make sense. You don't want a proliferation of "back tees" that are just a couple of yards behind the members tee and exist solely so club golfers can feel great playing from the tips. Obviously, there are courses, where the geography dictates otherwise and they shouldn't follow the general recommendation.

Ulrich

[MClutterbuck]

On Saturday a group of friends from North and South America meet on the first tee at Western Gailes. We are playing 9 rounds, encompassing an individual Stableford competition and a rotating partner fourball competition. It will get quite competitive and fun. 


Players from South America come from The Jockey Club and a relatively new Jack Nicklaus course. The current South American method to calculate handicaps does not translate well to modern courses and longer distances. I will not bore you with details. 


We all know our handicap systems well enough to know that the handicaps from North America, and South America from modern and classic courses are not comparable. We are all discussing in very good nature how many strokes to give each other.


The new world handicap system is a great move, because we live in a global era, where friends like to get together in different continents and have friendly competitions. The global era also means more and more foreign architects design new courses that do not adapt well to old handicap systems.


I participated in the rating of the first Argentine course with a USGA and an R&A rater. I like the system. I believe it is a huge step forward and we will all get used to it.

[Pete Lavallee]

I’m all for a unified Handicap System however I’m afraid that basically adopting the US System is a big mistake.


Good:


Averaging the course rating daily to account for adverse weather conditions is great. We had a group play the Irish Rota last year and they posted all their scores. Not surprising that all their handicaps went up by at least two shots. Had they played in formal Comps they probably wouldn’t have seen much of a change as the CONGU System adjusts the course rating for the day.


Bad:


Counting casual rounds. Our U.K. brothers and sisters may have a big problem with this as they are accustomed to only counting scores recorded in competition; playing by the rules with a marker.


People can easily manipulate the US System, yes I know pier review is meant to keep the cheaters at bay but frankly it doesn’t work. Two of my Men’s Clubs use Tournament Handicaps, using the last 8 tournament scores; suddenly the same culprits are not winning every month.


I see a simple solution: have two handicaps, Tournament scores in one file and casual rounds in another, this would allow for maximum participation while giving Clubs an option to curtail sandbagging without having to do the math themselves. I know that sounds too easy!

[Michael Whitaker]

The USGA handicap gives more local control to establishing handicaps... you guys should be very happy with that. Does your club currently have an active handicap committee that oversees and/or adjusts member handicaps? It’s required under the USGA system.

From the USGA manual:  A club's Handicap Committee is responsible to the golf club for all aspects of the USGA Handicap System, including the computation of the USGA Handicap Index.

All of the issues you are whining about are addressed in the current USGA system... including the effect of Tournament scores.

Read this FAQ and you will get a better picture of how it works: https://www.usga.org/handicapping/publications-25483/questions-and-answers-about-handicapping-001c75df.html

[Jay Mickle]

In a hickory competition I once shot a 78 with a 19 for a net 59. One of the players who takes the game and handicaps very seriously and would get a bit nasty with sand baggers approached me with that evil look in his eyes and said “Mickle! we would all think you were a sandbagger, but we have all played with you before”
Needless to say I was left speechless.

[Jon Wiggett]

If under the US system you are still required to have someone else mark your card then this is a good indication as to why allowing players to hand in none verified scores is not a good idea.

[Garland Bayley]

If under the US system you are still required to have someone else mark your card then this is a good indication as to why allowing players to hand in none verified scores is not a good idea.

In the current US system, you are not required to have someone else mark your card. In the current US system, you can post anything you want with next to no checks on it. As I have posted on other threads, it is my experience that I beat far more people with vanity handicaps than I lose to people who sandbag. Insert serious emoticon here.

Some of those vanity handicaps come from people that want to play The Old Course and need to meet a handicap max standard. So a corrupting influence in all of this is the R&A.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I won’t be posting casual rounds. Guess I’ll need to read what that really means but I can see myself rebelling.

[Mark Pearce]

All of the issues you are whining about are addressed in the current USGA system... including the effect of Tournament scores.

Read this FAQ and you will get a better picture of how it works: https://www.usga.org/handicapping/publications-25483/questions-and-answers-about-handicapping-001c75df.html

Far from it.  I read that and learn that if I go up to the club on my own for a quick 9 holes I have to post a score, and it counts every bit as much as a round played in the club championship.  That's lunacy, in my opinion.  And We already have handicap secretaries, who have the power, as mentioned above, to moderate handicaps.  It's the counting every round thing that really gets me.  As a way of balancing play in competition between players of disparate ability, handicaps based on play out of competition are a nonsense.


Like Ally, I won't be recording all my scores.

[Ben Stephens]

I won’t be posting casual rounds. Guess I’ll need to read what that really means but I can see myself rebelling.

Same here as well. I don't want to record the max double bogey score and would rather put in my true score.


Most of the social games in the UK is matchplay for a couple of quid. Plus if lost the hole without scoring ball is picked up and move on to the next hole without wasting time finishing the hole for the sake of scoring card wise.

[Ian Galbraith]

My understanding of how the WHS will be implemented in the UK is that only competition rounds and pre-announced rounds ( equivalent to supplementary scores at the moment) will be included in the calculation. This will be difference to how the "W"HS is implemented in other regions. There will be a review after a few years to see how it is going.


See https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Handicapping-FAQs-final.pdf

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Like Ally, I won't be recording all my scores.

Then you, Ally, and anyone else who does the same (including ignores ESC) will be breaking the Rules and will have illegitimate handicaps. You don't get to choose which Rules to follow and which not to in situations like this. You follow them or you're in violation and/or cheating.

Maybe you don't care, and as I won't play against either of you in the near future I certainly don't care, but it is what it is.

[David Jones]

Like Ally, I won't be recording all my scores.

Then you, Ally, and anyone else who does the same (including ignores ESC) will be breaking the Rules and will have illegitimate handicaps. You don't get to choose which Rules to follow and which not to in situations like this. You follow them or you're in violation and/or cheating.

Maybe you don't care, and as I won't play against either of you in the near future I certainly don't care, but it is what it is.

Hang on a minute, that’s complete balderdash!!


England Golf have been very explicit on this issue, as below. It may be different where you live, but in England it couldn’t be clearer that Ally is acting totally appropriately!


Issued July 2018
Do I have to submit every score for every round I play?
No: you will have to submit all singles competition scores, and you will have the choice to submit social/recreational scores. All scores will have to be pre- registered.’

[Kyle Harris]

Like Ally, I won't be recording all my scores.

Then you, Ally, and anyone else who does the same (including ignores ESC) will be breaking the Rules and will have illegitimate handicaps. You don't get to choose which Rules to follow and which not to in situations like this. You follow them or you're in violation and/or cheating.

Maybe you don't care, and as I won't play against either of you in the near future I certainly don't care, but it is what it is.

Hang on a minute, that’s complete balderdash!!


England Golf have been very explicit on this issue, as below. It may be different where you live, but in England it couldn’t be clearer that Ally is acting totally appropriately!


Issued July 2018
Do I have to submit every score for every round I play?
No: you will have to submit all singles competition scores, and you will have the choice to submit social/recreational scores. All scores will have to be pre- registered.’

So:


1. You have to have a minimum number of scores
2. You have to declare your intent to post the score for the round prior to that round?

What exactly is the hang-up here?

[David Jones]

Like Ally, I won't be recording all my scores.

Then you, Ally, and anyone else who does the same (including ignores ESC) will be breaking the Rules and will have illegitimate handicaps. You don't get to choose which Rules to follow and which not to in situations like this. You follow them or you're in violation and/or cheating.

Maybe you don't care, and as I won't play against either of you in the near future I certainly don't care, but it is what it is.

Hang on a minute, that’s complete balderdash!!


England Golf have been very explicit on this issue, as below. It may be different where you live, but in England it couldn’t be clearer that Ally is acting totally appropriately!


Issued July 2018
Do I have to submit every score for every round I play?
No: you will have to submit all singles competition scores, and you will have the choice to submit social/recreational scores. All scores will have to be pre- registered.’

So:


1. You have to have a minimum number of scores
2. You have to declare your intent to post the score for the round prior to that round?

What exactly is the hang-up here?

Agreed. Seems pretty straightforward and if you choose not to declare intent and count a social round you aren’t cheating.


Same in Scotland too it seems -


https://www.scottishgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/Scottish-Golf-WHS-FAQ-Document.pdf


Actually, I am planning to put all of my rounds in so my handicap reflects my regular play better. But I won’t be cheating if I don’t put in every non-competitive round in.

[Jay Mickle]

Then you, Ally, and anyone else who does the same (including ignores ESC) will be breaking the Rules and will have illegitimate handicaps. You don't get to choose which Rules to follow and which not to in situations like this. You follow them or you're in violation and/or cheating.
Maybe you don't care, and as I won't play against either of you in the near future I certainly don't care, but it is what it is.

I play for fun not for score. I like playing shots that I would not necessarily hit in medal competition: big flop shots, running shots, bank shots, heroic shots, etc. I will hit any of these shots in match play as all I can lose is a hole. The USGA rules said something to the effect that I am suppose to try to achieve the best score possible and record that score. Other than medal competition I don't attempt to shoot the best score possible, recording that score would be padding my handicap. Should I give up golf or just stop playing in friendly competitions like the BUDA, Dixie Cup, Midwest Mashie, etc.

[Tim Martin]

Then you, Ally, and anyone else who does the same (including ignores ESC) will be breaking the Rules and will have illegitimate handicaps. You don't get to choose which Rules to follow and which not to in situations like this. You follow them or you're in violation and/or cheating.
Maybe you don't care, and as I won't play against either of you in the near future I certainly don't care, but it is what it is.

I play for fun not for score. I like playing shots that I would not necessarily hit in medal competition: big flop shots, running shots, bank shots, heroic shots, etc. I will hit any of these shots in match play as all I can lose is a hole. The USGA rules said something to the effect that I am suppose to try to achieve the best score possible and record that score. Other than medal competition I don't attempt to shoot the best score possible, recording that score would be padding my handicap. Should I give up golf or just stop playing in friendly competitions like the BUDA, Dixie Cup, Midwest Mashie, etc.

Jay-Move to the coast and get a boat.