[Martin Toal]

I played Pine Hill a few years ago while at a convention in Philadelphia. I have also played Trump National in Long Beach, and in my humble opinion Pine Hill is a much better track. That is not meant to be damned by faint praise -, I really liked PH, but I thought TN LA was rather forgettable.

[mike_malone]

 If they can reduce the penal nature of much of the course there is hope for it.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

It's so e-z to lampoon Trump because so many other people do it with frequent regularity and the man himself often spurs others dto do likewise given his penchant to draw exposure to himself. However, as Steve L mentions the man has demonstrated some serious smart moves on keeping golf courses that he purchases in existence.

I have played the 36-hole complex in Bedminster and as I said previously, BOTH layouts can make a solid case for a top ten inclusion in the Garden State. Anyone who know remotely anything about NJ -- knows it has a slew of solid layouts -- a few of them are bonafide members of anyone's top 100 listing for the USA.

Pine Hill clearly has some architectural elements that are worthy of anyone's attention. I previously mentioned that holes such as the uphill par-4 9th and the stunning plunging downhill par-4 10th are really good holes. The land itself could better serve the remaining holes and frankly instead of blending in with the natural terrain the TF design actually causes them to stand apart.

Mike S said it best -- Trump can hold on to the land and see what shakes out. For now, keeping the course is a worthy thing and I can only hope that if Trump really wishes to do something with the property he can hire an architect that can tweak certain clear deficiencies there and make it even more noteworthy. The potentiial is there -- the question is does Trump see that side of things.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Trump seems to think that just because it's near Pine Valley, Pine Hill is a great course. It didn't make Best New in GD or even come close. It has potential if softened somewhat. Will he bring in Tommy Fazio instead of Tom F to do the work?

I think Trump over estimates the number of PA people with helicopters.   

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

You say Pine Hill needs to be "softened."

Really?

What is so penal about the course ?

The issue for me about Pine Hill is that the architecture stands apart from the natural terrain you find there. It's almost like TF and crew went ahead with a formulaic blueprint for holes and with few exceptions forced them upon the land there.

I'd like to see more holes with the character as seen at the 9th and 10th. They don't have to be long and demanding but require much more strategic calculations than the bulk of the course which sabotages what the land could ultimately provide.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

I think it's a course that's probably too difficult for the mid-handicapper to play on a daily basis. With frequent plays, one can learn to manage the course and one must be on their game to score in the low 80s. I feel the course is not unlike my prior club-Commonwealth- in this regard.

6,969 yards from championship tees
74.5/145 Course & Slope Rating from championship tees


Blue Tees: 6646y 73.1/ 141 

White Tees: 6248y 71.2 /138 

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Given my knowledge of Jersey courses I find the slope and CR for the tips at PH to be a tad higher than they should be.

I don't see the slope there as being in the same league with places like WF/W and BB. The issue for me is that compelling architecture is lost because architect simply used a blueprint for holes without realizing how the natural terrain can be tied TOGETHER -- rather than stand apart as it does now.

Let me also point out that PH does have sufficient width on many holes -- notably the 9th and 10th which are well done and tempt the player to shorten the distance by trying to get the tee ball to finish in a desired location. If one plays either away or misfires to those areas the demands increase. That kind of architecture is what the place needs more of and is no different than the strategic elements you see with so many of the upper crust Phila layouts.

In regards to your linkage to Commonwealth National you completely lost me. CN is far more penal -- has far more carries -- several of which involve H20 and often include narrow corridors in order to do this -- especially on the return nine.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

No doubt that  Commonwealth is more penal but the slope/ratings are similar.  I wouldn't call Pine Hill "sporty" or a fun "walk in the park." With those numbers, even if slightly inflated, it's a test for the mid handicapper.

[archie_struthers]

 


I'll come to the Donald's defense....particularly if he sends me to Scotland as an emissary LOL  

He's buying Pine Hill as a golfer...plain and simple !  he got a good deal on a nice golf course that borders one of the great golf courses in the world.....with some cache attached

It's going to be a lot of hard work to make it a money maker...I'll disagree slightly with my friend Shea Sweeney ( Merry Christmas Mike)  as to the cost of operating Pine Hill ....the clubhouse is 38,000 square and hard to get enough utilization to justify the cost of maintaining....it is difficult for the average player...probably will work better as a high end private, if they can leverage some play at the other facilities he owns it maight help Pine Hill a lot

If you remember the land at Pine Hill is leased from the municipality and as Donald rightly says the current NJ DEP regullations would make it nearly impossible to reproduce...so it just doesn't look like a land grab and hold

Pine Hill is a good golf course.....it's pretty hard to compete with an iconic place like PV, hence some of the overdone criticism of the subject ...  ....so let's wish the Donald well...c'mon it's Christmas guys

Happy Golfing New Year ....let there be few three putts in 2010    
'

[Jed Peters]

Donald Trump is a showman.

He's also a man who loves golf and golf courses.

In the one short time I met him and spoke to him, he showed he loved golf, golf courses, and had a huge interest in the Game as a whole.

I don't think he deserves the vitriol of most of the posters here.

[Rick Sides]

Really don't think the Donald will get 10,000 initiation and 6,500 a year fees in this economy on that track. Don't get me wrong, nice course, but a few months ago they were offering no initiation fees and membership still didn't increase- sorry Donald

[Jason Walker]

Rick--
Your prediction is a little mis-guided.  I think he'll have no problems dramatically increasing the membership and here's why:  I was a member there for four years and put my resignation in earlier this year.   What drove this was simple--after prepaying our 2009 dues, Empire Golf decided May 1st to remove any of the benefits of being a member--i.e., they made the course 100% public again.   After years of empty promises to the members, many of us (I'd guess 40-50) had finally had enough and put in our resignations effective the end of this year.  Why bother paying 6k in dues when you could walk up anytime and plunk down $80 to play?  Even worse, why would anyone NEW join???  It had gotten so pathetic that many of us were telling people NOT to join!

So with all of that, many of us had either joined or were in the process of joining other clubs.  I'm also a member at Tavistock, several of my friends went to Rolling Green, some to Little Mill, Philly Cricket, TPC JP, etc.  Well guess what--now that ownership has changed, and as of yesterday the course is 100% private, nearly all of us have or will be reactivating our memberships--even as a second club.  I suspect that many more will do this.  The architecture can be debated (i happen to think the course is a great, fun members course), but the people there were fantastic and they always deserved better than penny-pinching Empire Golf--it's truly a great place to play golf, hang out, have a drink, etc.

This is a great thing for golf--I have zero respect for the way Empire Golf does business or serves their customers.  And my experiences at other Trump properties (Bedminster, Briarcliff) have been first-class all the way.  After speaking with the Director of Golf at Pine Hill (now Trump National-Philly), he's really excited as is the entire staff.    Trump's going to shut the place down for a few months, reconfigure the clubhouse, locker room, and tweak the golf course, practice area, etc., I'm really looking forward to it in 2010.

[Tim Book]

My one golf tour through Maryland / NJ included a trip to Pine Hill back in 04'.  In my mind one of the most difficult I have played.  I can't imagine playing there on a weekly basis. 

[Kyle Harris]

Maybe he'll add another nine between all the holes on the current first nine...

[/wry comment]

[cary lichtenstein]

I don't understand Trump, who is profit/ego driven, why he is investing in the golf course industry?

How can he profit by these purchases and developments?

[Mike Sweeney]

As we sit here on New Year's Day of a new decade, I think we should be thankful (seriously) that Donnie is buying these courses. He obviously is a long term believer in golf but it is possible that he is just another golf nut willing to lighten his wallet. He obviously prefers buying near Metropolitan areas, and in the case of Branton Woods, he can sell memberships to some of his condo owners in White Plains.

It will be interesting to see what price point he puts Branton Woods. It is too far for me, but at the right price point and management, I think it will do well. Branton Woods is a very good golf course. Two holes got squeezed on the property and some of the green surrounds lack the detailing that many of us like around here, but it is a very good golf course. Walkable as I remember. I played it with a member of Hudson National once and he preferred it to Hudson National.

In the Trump portfolio, I have only played Pine Hill and Branton Woods and as Pat mentioned above, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to have access to the others. Okay the Trump in the name of each and the logos are not my cup of tea but I have seen worse. The real question for me would be if he is able to attract "golfers".

Here is the Hudson Valley view:

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/article/20091224/NEWS01/912240324/Trump-buys-Branton-Woods-golf-course-in-East-Fishkill

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

I have a few college buds who have bought into Trump properties and they are true "golfers" in the manner you might define it. They have always believed the courses they have played have been worth the time and money. One of them believes the 36-hole complex at Trump National in Bedminster is vastly underrated and I agree with him. Be interesting to see how The Donald manages with places like Pine Hill and Branton Woods.

[Jed Peters]

Mike S:

I have a few college buds who have bought into Trump properties and they are true "golfers" in the manner you might define it. They have always believed the courses they have played have been worth the time and money. One of them believes the 36-hole complex at Trump National in Bedminster is vastly underrated and I agree with him. Be interesting to see how The Donald manages with places like Pine Hill and Branton Woods.

Although not the finest 36 hole complex in the US, Bedminster has gotta be in the nation's top 5.

I'd be proud to be a member there.

[Matt_Ward]

Jed:

The sad part is that too many people hold The Donald out to dry no matter what comes forward.

That is really silly.

I've said this before -- the two 18-hole layouts at TN/Bedminster can make a solid case for both being among Jersey's top ten courses. Baltusrol, in my mind, can't make that same claim.

In the metro NYC area -- only Winged Foot would be ahead of what Trump has provided there for 36 complete holes, in my mind.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Trump meets the members and plans changes to the course:

http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=3421

[Sean Leary]

11 Trump Clubs? More than I thought....

[PCCraig]

For the course itself, Trump has vowed to bring back Tom Fazio, the original designer, to "restore the course back to its original state,"

Have they changed the course that much since they first opened? Or does this mean changing it to how the Donald wants it?


Also noticed the $10k membership down payment...that's pretty low for Philly right? I'm surprised (regardless of the current economic state) that membership hasn't been more popular. It looks like a pretty neat golf course.

[George Pazin]

Just bringing this over from the other thread because it seems very appropriate. Jason, if that bothers you for any reason, drop me a note and I'll remove it.

I can't believe I'm about to write a post defending Donald Trump...but here goes.  

A little context about me--I'm a southern boy who has spent the last 15 years in Rhode Island and Philly.  So the whole Donald Trump/brash New Yorker thing really rubs me the wrong way.

I'm a member of a club (Pine Hill GC, now Trump National-Philadelphia) that was purchased by Trump at the end of 2009.  This past Thursday I attended a reception hosted by the Donald himself with about 100 members.   To say I was shocked by his child-like enthusiasm for golf, his knowledge of agronomy and golf course construction, and his attention to detail regarding club operation would be an understatement.  But that's not the reason I'm going to defend the guy.

The economy can't be any worse right now, and according to what I read here and other places, the golf economy has sunk much further than the rest of the country.  And all anyone says about Trump is he makes brash statements about his properties and he's 'over the top'.  Well, I completely agree.   But there is a VERY short list of people who are injecting tens of millions of dollars into golf courses and golf clubs these days, and he's gotta be near the top of that list.  I can tell you that at Pine Hill, the place was probably months (maybe weeks) from folding--the finances were that bad and the prior owner was in big trouble.  And if that place went, so would the golf-related jobs, the jobs in the clubhouse, the suppliers who sell to the club....you get my drift.   So he buys it, immediately closes it to the public, starts dropping several million dollars into the place providing work for those in the construction biz, engineers, interiors, gc construction (he's making several changes to the course), etc....It's a very good thing for the club and for golf.  

So before everyone says Trump is the worst thing to ever happen to golf, remember that his track record with his other clubs is impeccable.   The two facilities I've been to (Westchester and Bedminster) are absolutely spectacular experiences, and has been discussed here the course at Bedminster is first-rate.  Do I like seeing the gold Trump crest everywhere?  not so much.  But this guy charges some serious coin to be a member at his clubs and for the most part they're all very successful operations with very satisfied memberships.  

There's a long history of obscene marketing in the golf business.  It's not going to stop, and Donald is probably going to lead the way.  Someone posted something about "the views, the condition of the course, and the hot girls" at his LA place.  I had a group of friends say the exact thing to me after they played it.  THEY LOVED THE EXPERIENCE.  But who really cares what the guy says???  He's already a very rich man--maybe he's in this to feed his ego, but that's fine...many very rich folks do that.  All I care is he's pumping money into a business that's falling like a lead balloon.

It's really a shame he doesn't show this side of himself instead of the side he chooses to show. I guess it's a little ridiculous for little old unsuccessful me to criticise, but I'd guess if he showed this side of himself more often, he would be even more successful.

[Mike Sweeney]

Where are the options off the tee for Mayday?  



I just don't see Mayday hangin with Donnie next season!

[Mike Cirba]

Personally, I think it's great to see anyone in these tough times who is bullish on golf and golf courses these days, and particularly one who has money to fund something.

He absolutely loves golf, of that I have no doubt.

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