News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tom Huckaby

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2005, 12:04:26 PM »
Isn't the original Open Championship belt there for all to see, just inside the entrace to the R&A clubhouse at St. Andrews?

Not that this lessons its worth one bit... I just want to make sure I was gawking at the right artifact.

TH

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2005, 12:15:47 PM »
Tom I believe that it is here is somthing from the open web site.

The original Golf Champion Trophy is on permanent display in The Royal and Ancient Golf Clubhouse. It sits alongside the original first prize, the Challenge Belt, which was donated to the club in 1908 by the grandchildren of Tom Morris Senior.

I would say there would be some people who would pay a pretty penny for any of the majors Tropheys. Mainly The Open

Tom Huckaby

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2005, 12:33:55 PM »
Brian - thanks.  My memory is starting to really suck as I get to be this old geezer I am rapidly becoming. But man I coulda sworn I saw that.

 ;D

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2005, 01:36:48 PM »
My memory is starting to really suck as I get to be this old geezer I am rapidly becoming.

That'd make a good signature line for you!

As for artifacts: I'd like to have Tiger's first scorecard, or Jack's, or Bobby's, or any great's.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 01:38:13 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tom Huckaby

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2005, 01:42:25 PM »
Capital idea, Dan.  That will do for now.  But I have high hopes for an improvement.

TH

Kris Spence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2005, 02:08:42 PM »
All of Ross' sketches and green cross sections for #2

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2005, 02:15:58 PM »
The Troon Clubs, found at the end of the nineteen century in Hull, England. Some date them prior to 1603 because the thistle and crown stamps on them. It is guessed they were made by a Scottish monarchs royal club maker -- and the last Scottish monarch was 1603.

The six woods and two irons are on display at the British Golf Museum at St. Andrews.

Alister Mackenzie's original map is on display in the trophy room at the Royal and Ancient Golf Club, along with plenty of other cool trophies and memorobilia, probably worth millions and millions of pounds. I was really surprised how large the Mackenzie map is.

I'm saving my dimes and quarters if Seamus MacDuff's baffin' spoon ever comes on the market (though I'm betting it doesn't come in a lefty model, I'm kinda hoping it can be swung either way.)

Dan King
Quote
No monarch since James II was deposed in 1688 has shown any propensity for golf. It is unlikely that the office of Royal Clubmaker, which we know was first established in 1602 and was still in evidence in 1669, survived until the 1740s. What is intriguing, however, is the coupling within the motif of the Crown (representative of the reigning monarch) and the Thistle, (symbol of Scotland). However, the Kingdom of Scotland as an independent preserve disolved in 1603 with the Union of the Crowns. Dare we speculate thatthe date of the manufacture of these clubs, portraying a stamp of royal approval or licensed under the King's pregrogative, could be attributed to a period prior to 1603?
 --Alastair Johnson (Chronicles of Golf: 1457-1857)

ForkaB

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2005, 02:45:27 PM »
Dan

I could be wrong, but I think that that the Scottish "crown" survived as a legal entity until 1707 when the Scottish Parliament was dissolved.  In the 1603-1707 period all monarchs "wore" dual crowns (England and Scotland).

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2005, 03:46:11 PM »

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2005, 03:48:39 PM »
The Troon Clubs, found at the end of the nineteen century in Hull, England. Some date them prior to 1603 because the thistle and crown stamps on them. It is guessed they were made by a Scottish monarchs royal club maker -- and the last Scottish monarch was 1603.

The six woods and two irons are on display at the British Golf Museum at St. Andrews.

Alister Mackenzie's original map is on display in the trophy room at the Royal and Ancient Golf Club, along with plenty of other cool trophies and memorobilia, probably worth millions and millions of pounds. I was really surprised how large the Mackenzie map is.

I'm saving my dimes and quarters if Seamus MacDuff's baffin' spoon ever comes on the market (though I'm betting it doesn't come in a lefty model, I'm kinda hoping it can be swung either way.)

Dan King
Quote
No monarch since James II was deposed in 1688 has shown any propensity for golf. It is unlikely that the office of Royal Clubmaker, which we know was first established in 1602 and was still in evidence in 1669, survived until the 1740s. What is intriguing, however, is the coupling within the motif of the Crown (representative of the reigning monarch) and the Thistle, (symbol of Scotland). However, the Kingdom of Scotland as an independent preserve disolved in 1603 with the Union of the Crowns. Dare we speculate thatthe date of the manufacture of these clubs, portraying a stamp of royal approval or licensed under the King's pregrogative, could be attributed to a period prior to 1603?
 --Alastair Johnson (Chronicles of Golf: 1457-1857)

Mr. MacDuff's baffin' spoon would be a heck of a find!!!!

-Ted

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2005, 05:04:43 PM »
Mr. Macdonald's notes would likely be the most valuable golf ARCHITECTURE artifact [there are many more golf artifacts -- say Alan Shepard's club -- which would fetch more $ because there are more people interested in golf itself].  

I have a suspicion that Macdonald's notes are still alive and well in the collection of some wealthy East coast family ... but I doubt you will see them on eBay anytime soon.

I think I have a few valuable things in my own collection of papers, but the most valuable has to be my scholarship application to Cornell from 1982 -- not so much for my earnest writing as for the letters of recommendation on my behalf.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0

wsmorrison

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2005, 06:05:32 PM »
Tom Doak,

Have you given any thought to preserving your original golf architecture materials in digitized form?  The reason I ask is that Tom Paul and I are working with an organization to put together a golf architecture archive and research center.  The originals are certainly important and likely valuable to you and your heirs.  However, for research purposes, do you think if such a center was started correctly that you might consider donating digitized versions of your materials?  

In our view the preservation of material relating to the game's playing fields are as important, and to a number of us on this site even more so, than objects relating to the playing of the game.  The bidding for the Colt map seems to underscore this point.

On the other hand I'd rather have the bat Babe Ruth hit his 714th home run with rather than plans for Forbes Field where he hit his last home run for the Boston Braves.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2005, 06:13:07 PM »
I have a valuable paper in my collection, too. A letter full of advice from Tom Doak, on how to pursue a career in golf course architecture!

Seriously. It's a much appreciated letter... dated about 1993-4, or thereabouts.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 06:15:23 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2005, 07:19:36 PM »
Golf artifact: The Claret Jug... the Jug itself and it comes with a nice paycheck...

Architecture artifact: question to Tom Doak: have you published your pictures of the course The Links of CB MacDonald before they burry it under housing. If not this should be valuable.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2005, 07:27:05 PM »
Rich Goodale writes:
I could be wrong, but I think that the Scottish "crown" survived as a legal entity until 1707 when the Scottish Parliament was dissolved.  In the 1603-1707 period all monarchs "wore" dual crowns (England and Scotland).

That's what I get for relying on a golf book to get Scottish history right. I've found history books are often very poor at getting what is happening outside of golf correct. About the only book that seemed to really make an effort to combine golf history with Scottish history was David Hamilton's excellent Golf: Scotland's Game.

Thanks Rich.

Dan King
Quote
History repeats itself; historians repeat each other.
 --Philip Guedalla

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2005, 09:37:43 PM »
I'll tell you one rather valuable signed map I have seen and know whereof it is - in a private collection in the U.S. (not mine):

A 1924 edition of MacKenzie's map of St. Andrews, clearly signed by MacK to A.W. Tillinghast as his personal gift. Makes your head spin.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 10:11:34 PM by Brad Klein »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2005, 10:06:29 PM »
Wow!

That is good, Brad. I'm sure there's a few who frequent this web site who'd pay top dollar for that treasure!
jeffmingay.com

Phil_the_Author

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2005, 11:18:12 PM »
Though they are not in the same category as the ones mentioned, especially because of Brad's mention of Tilly, I can't help but think about his golf clubs, and how many valuable artifacts are sitting out there either undiscovered or taken for granted.

As for Tilly's clubs, they are now the property of his granddaughter Barbara. Several years back when I visited her home to interview her for the first time, she showed me them, or more accurately, asked me to help her get them. These wonderful old hickories, all bearing the Stewart emblem by the way, had slipped from the place of honor where she had stored them for years a few days before I arrived. Instead of standing upright as they had been between the refrigerator and stove in her kitchen, they had fallen and then lay on the floor behind both appliances.

After retrieving them, and these were the clubs he used to finish 25th & second low amateur in the U.S. Open, I was able to convince her, mostly through her children, that these were very valuable historically and monetarily.

I mentioned that they could find a place of honor in a golf museum where they would be cared for, but she just smiled at me with her incredibly beautiful blue eyes, took my hand in her gnarled and arthrically-ravaged 73 year old hands and said, "But what clubs will I use then if I want to play a round!"

If you ever meet Barbara Manny you will be enthralled as I was and still am.


ForkaB

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2005, 03:53:19 AM »
Phil

Any sign of Tilly's hip flask?  TE Paul would probably pay a pretty penny to get a hold of that!

TEPaul

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2005, 06:02:28 AM »
"Phil
Any sign of Tilly's hip flask?  TE Paul would probably pay a pretty penny to get a hold of that!"

INDUBITABLY!!

However, to me the most valuable golf or golf architecture artifact has to be Max Behr's typewriter or failing that his pen! Can you imagine it? It would be something in one's collection the great man actually touched! How about that hat Max had on in that delightful photo taken of him in California? Imagine it---you'd have something in your collection that actually rested upon and perhaps even warmed the greatest mind in the history of golf or architecture, possibly even the greatest mind in the history of mankind!!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2005, 06:03:53 AM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2005, 07:01:33 AM »
Tom

I'd settle for Behr's 4th grade report card when he was in Mrs. Grundy's class. The rumour has it it starts out something like this.......

"Maxie is a lovely and curious little boy, but he spends far too much time reading Roget's Thesaurus, while ignoring the basic rules of grammar.  He will probably have a long and fulfilling life as an actuary or scrivener........."
« Last Edit: November 24, 2005, 07:02:04 AM by Rich Goodale »

TEPaul

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2005, 09:24:08 AM »
"Maxie is a lovely and curious little boy, but he spends far too much time reading Roget's Thesaurus, while ignoring the basic rules of grammar."

Rich:

Rules of grammar?? Rules like that are for insecure and narrow-minded people, apparently such as yourself since you constantly make such an issue of it. Rules of grammar should never stultify the pen of a "beautiful mind" like Max Behr! Even as a 4th grader he was on an entirely different and far higher level than some Mrs Grundy moralizing rules of grammar.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2005, 09:26:33 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2005, 09:39:07 AM »
What is the oldest golf club (implement not course) in existence?  That's what I'd like to own if I were a collector.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2005, 09:39:31 AM by Wayne Morrison »

wsmorrison

Re:What is the most valuable golf artifact?
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2005, 09:53:51 AM »
I did a Google search and came up with these in the British Golf Museum:

The Royal Troon Golf Clubs  

   
     

This unique set of 6 woods and 2 irons was found in a concealed cupboard at 160 High Street, Hull during internal alterations in 1898. The house had been rebuilt after a fire by its then owners, the Maister family, in 1700 and among other items found with the clubs was an old newspaper dated 1741.

The irons are thought to date from the late 17th century and the woods, which appear to be 3 pairs of clubs, from the early 18th century. One of the irons and all 6 woods are stamped with a lozenge with a crown over a thistle, a mullet between, flanked with the letters IC. These were probably the marks of the owner as the irons would almost certainly have been made by a different craftsman than the woods.

These clubs were presented in 1899 to Troon Golf Club by Adam Wood, who was Captain of the club from 1893 to 1897.

Adam Wood:

Adam Wood was an original member of Troon Golf Club, joining in 1878. He was an avid collector of “curios” which may explain why the clubs were given to him originally. He gifted the set of clubs to Troon Golf Club in 1915.

Maister House, 160 High Street, Hull:

This was the home of the Maister family. They were a major shipping family in Hull at a time when it was a wealthy trading centre. These trading links may explain why the clubs came into the family’s possession.

The house is now owned by the National Trust.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2005, 09:54:17 AM by Wayne Morrison »