Front to back sloping greens and decision making

[wsmorrison]

I've noticed a few instances where Flynn used front to back sloping greens in a way that ups the risk/reward equation and provides a great deal of strategy to those that consider the design carefully.  

Take for instance the 3rd hole at Philadelphia Country Club, a 585-yard par 5 hole.  In this case, the green determines shots all the way back to the tee.  This was once the 18th hole before the clubhouse moved and was the scene of Snead's famous meltdown to lose the 1939 US Open.

The tee shot must carry two bunkers along the right side of the fairway.  The more you bite off the more you can get down the line of play.  There is a fairway bunker along the left that frames the landing area.

A stong drive allows the possiblility of clearing two menacing cross bunkers with the second shot (Snead landed in one of these) and thus having a lofted approach to the elevated green that slopes away from you.  The go/no go decision to clear the cross bunkers is strenthened by the reward concommitant to the risk.  A weaker drive or a poor second shot that means coming up short of the cross bunkers leaves you with a shot with a less lofted iron that can easily run through the green.  

Anything pushed to the right may enter a large and deep bunker.  If it is pushed further right it will bound down a hill and the approach must carry the bunker to a flag that you may not see or might only see the top of.

There seems to be a low percentage of front to back sloping greens.  I don't know if they're being built much today.  I think they allow for high risk/reward possibilities and a great deal of strategic design features that start on the tee.

Please, what are some other front to back sloping greens and what are the strategic implications?

[Brent Hutto]

The toughest hole at my home course is a long Par 4 that has a small green which slopes slightly away from the player hitting an approach shot. There's actually a front edge that's level or very slightly rolled toward the fairway then a shallow shelf that's very slightly pitched toward the back of the green. The deeper in the green you go the more it slopes toward the back. Over the green is grassy slope with 15 yards of thick rough leading down to a water hazard (marked as lateral, BTW).

The tough pin location is middle or just back of middle of the green. With it on the front you can just play short and do no worse than a short chip from the fringe. With in on the back everything feeds back there so you just don't carry it too deep into the green. On the middle if you play too short it may check up and leave you putting over the brow of the hill and if you hit it all the way to the hole with no spin it will kick off the green. The top of that hill is also exposed to a breeze that you can't judge accurately from the fairway.

As with most decent holes nowadays, the problem is that it doesn't challenge big hitters. The hole is an uphill dogleg right that plays about 450 yards from the way-back tees (I play it from 405 from the regular men's tees). The young college guns go over the trees and cut the dogleg leaving an uphill shot of well under 150 yards. Generally that means an 8-iron hit a mile in the air or even full pitching wedge if they really nail a drive. From the fairway those shots spin so much they can just fly it to the hole and stop 6-8 feet from impact so the hole reduces to hitting a long, accurate drive on the correct line to end up in the (fairly narrow) fairway on the other side of the trees.

Far and sure, man. Far and sure.

[Scott Witter]

Wayne,

I played Stafford CC (Walter Travis) renovated/restored bunkers by Ian Andrew, yesterday.  Truly a great track to play and experience.  Greens that slope front to back if my memory serves me well are 1, 5, 10, 13 and 17. #1 about a 400 yd par 4 with loe approach into the green temps the player to go at the flag but the slope, with experience reminds you to stay one club down and hit the front or else.  #10 is short & sharp dogleg right about 300 yds.  A smooth 3 iron leaves a wedge into a small green around 3000 SF sloping away fairly quick and anything hit to the center or back will rarely hold.  #13 a par 5 around 540, but the green surface is blind from the first landing area and a quick 15 feet below the second landing area.  Going for it is a good option, but you need to be short since the green slopes away and there is no recovery from the shit beyond the green.  #17 a dogleg right around 410.  From the landing area the green is mostly blind but you can see the flag.  With a good drive you only have about 125 yds in, however, there a sharp drop to the green about 15-20 feet over the last 80 feet of fairway, a bunker right (blind) and trouble behind, deep rough and trees, so for the most part you are smart to play to the front of the green or at least short and hope you get a favorable bounce.

I seem to think there is at least one other green this way but fail to recall.  I play Stafford about three times a year and I would recommend it to anyone while in the area.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Wayne-

  Good question!  

There are several I have played which you are familiar with; one being the fifth at Hidden Creek.  

A rather large mound hides the putting surface, which falls away, front to back.  The day we played it, in the outing, the hole location was in the front part of the green.  I played the hole based on a yardage, and not hole location; I was caught in between 9 iron and pitching wedge, and decided to go with a smooth nine.

My ball jumped a little, and ended up towards the back of the green, which I proceeded to three putt.  

If I was in the same situation again, I would rather have taken the wedge and played for the front of the green, or even just short.  Worst case scenario, have a putt from just off the green.  

Another example is Beechtree's third hole.  The last time I played it, a ball could be played just short of the green or even to the front part, in order to bounce back to a rear hole location.  

[BCrosby]

Wayne -

Why fall-away greens aren't built more often is one of those modern mysteries that escape me.

They can make an o.k. hole into a very good hole. Maybe a great hole. All with no extra construction or maintenance expense.

I assume their rarity is due to a belief in architectural circles that they would be wildly unpopular. But I've never seen or heard any evidence of that. To the contrary, people who come back from trips to Scotland rave about them.

My favorite is the 3rd at Cruden Bay.

Bob  

[wsmorrison]

Scott,

Thanks, I'll look into Stafford CC, I'd love to see more of Ian's work.  Where in NY is Stafford?

Bobsy,

I agree.  I think it is an excellent feature that adds a huge amount of interest to a hole.  I don't play enough modern courses to know if they are/aren't built.  It must have something to do with the perception of fairness and ease of play if they are not being done.  Is it too favorable to long hitters and punishing to shorter ones?  Maybe so, but different tees ought to account for that.  I guess a short scratch player has a disadvantage though.  Even still, I would love to see a couple of these per course if they work with the overall intent of the hole/course.

Anything that affects all the shots from the tee to the green is a good thing and helps to identify good strategists.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

The 10th hole by Donald Ross at Schuylkill Country Club has a very cool fall away, front to back green.  

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

How does the fallaway nature of the green influence the strategy of the hole?  Are there any risks/rewards that are highlighted by the nature of the green?  Is it a straightaway hole?  What is the length of the hole and approach?  Sorry for all the questions, I'm curious to understand the overall perspective of these types of holes.

[Philip Gawith]

At Huntercombe holes 1,6,7, 9 and 10 all have front to back sloping greens. Three of these are short holes - 1, 7 and 10 - and I think this diminishes the strategic impact you are referring to.

That said, in the case of the 9th and 10th, the combination of obstacles just short of the green - a "valley of sin" type effect on 9, and a bunker on 10 - and the front-to-back slope of the green, do pose cute dilemmas: do you try and fly them, with the risk of pitching and going off the back, or do you try and circumvent them - either by bouncing short, or left, respectively?

In the case of the 6th, a par 5, I am not sure the strategic consequences are that dramatic. If you are a short hitter, you are laying up to hit a 100 yard pitch in and that decision is not affected by the shape of the green. If you are a long hitter, your stratgey for the hole is determined by how straight you drive, not by the shape of the green.

In all cases, the shape of the green makes distance judgement difficult, and when the fairways are firm, they generally encourage you to run the balls into the holes. Because the slopes are quite subtle to the unitiated, they effect putting quite a lot, whether you are putting up or down slope, or across it.

[Eric Pevoto]

Wayne,

I just played Inniscrone on Saturday.  The 15th there, a shortish par 5 with a principal's nose in the drive and a diagonal bunker on the left, about 75 yards from the green.  Pretty strong right to left slant all the way to the cross bunkers.  

Beyond the cross bunker and through the green, the land falls left and toward the back of the green.  From the high side, a right green side bunker cuts in just enough to complicate the approach.  

The golf course was playing beautifully fast; as fast as anything I've seen in a long time.  Any shot hit from the high side would have had to have been well struck and land well short of the green to keep it from running through.  I hit my second in the rough just above the right green side bunker and had a hard time keeping my little pitch (about 15 yards to the front of the green) from rolling through.  

So the green did effect the tee shot.  You were better off playing down the low left side off the tee so you could play the second a little more into the face of the slope and control the roll.

I'm convinced anybody who says the ground game is dead (or for the less-skilled) hasn't played a truly fast golf course.

By the way, no major changes yet at Inniscrone.  They've cut back a lot/all of the the tall grasses, but haven't made any structural changes.

[Eric Pevoto]

Other pretty severe fallaway greens can be found at CC of Scranton.  #7 and #10 come to mind.  I wouldn't say though, that the greens effect strategy off the tee.  Perhaps, getting as close to the green as possible might help, but that's usually the case!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

Brilliant use of the land was employed when the 13th and 15th greens at GCGC were built.

The 13th slopes away from the approaching golfer and the 15th, immediately behind it slopes hard left to right for approach shots, but, back to front for those viewing it from the 13th fairway.

The visual is such that many first time golfer's ignore the flagstick on # 13 and aim at the 15th green.

Likewise, I've also seen golfers playing # 15 hit to # 13 green, because only the flagstick is visible from the 15th fairway while almost the entire green is visible on # 13.

[Brian Cenci]

I think the most difficult front to back sloping green (overall a descrease in elevation from front to back) that I have faced is #13 at Crystal Downs.  

While it is not severly sloped the entire way (it has a two tier effect) the general flow of the the green is an elevation drop form front to back.  There is also a SEVERE left to right slope as well to accentuate the front to back sloping green.  

In order to approach a front pin location (with a mid to long iron and at 430+ you usually have a mid to long iron in) you must aim at a birch tree on the left side of the green and land it short about 15 yards and let the slope drift the ball sharply to the right on the green and just trickle it to the front hole location.  The problem is gaurding the left side of the green, to suck up any long shots that don't move, is a fairly flat bunker (no lip and you can actually putt out of it).  If you end up in this bunker it demands a precise sand shot out of it to spare going long to the other side (or even rolling off the green.  On the right side there are two large deep bunkers that gaurd an approach shot right or one that falls just short of the green.

A pin in the back portion is a little easier.  The player can aim at the left edge of the green and let the the green's slope guide the ball to the rear right portion of the green.  All in all, it is a hole within a hole and truly a stretegic shot from any pin or shot location.

The green is the most difficult approach I have ever faced and after playing more than 300 rounds at CD as an employee I still think the most proficient and effective way to get to a front pin location (to take 6's and 7's out of the equation) is to purposly go long and chip back to the front hole location or give yourself a long putt back to the front.

[Bill_McBride]

Oakmont #12 is another par 5 with a slippery front to back slope, but no cross bunkers.  At over 600 yds you need to get way down there to avoid a low-lofted approach (ask me!) to keep the ball from running all the way to the back.  The pros will be absolutely killing drives there trying to roll long irons to the front or onto the green.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

When I get back to the East Coast, I'll post a picture of the 10th at Schuylkill. The fall away definately makes a golfer feel like leaving the ball short and puts some pressure on the tee shot as well as the green is quite visible from the tee. Ross banked the approach fairway to accept a run on shot and the green side bunkers are above the green. From the tee and fairway the green is on the horizon, save for trees behind it. Off the tee, the golfer needs to play as close to the right side of the fairway as possible in order to have the run up shot. The further left in the fairway and the more the green side bunker comes into play, therefore calling for the shot to be carried all the way to the green. Any shot hit thin will probably roll off the back.

There are two fairway bunkers that are about 30 yards right of the present fairway line. Jim is slowly bring the fairway closer to these bunkers, making the golfer challenge them for the correct line off the tee.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

Thanks for pinch-hitting and answering Wayne's questions.  You need to get him up to Schuylkill...I think he'd enjoy those greeens.

Wayne,

Sorry..I've been busy doing required "reading".  Talk more soon.  

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

You should come along too when that happens. Really glad you enjoyed the place.

[wsmorrison]

I'm ready to do so when its convenient for you two.  

[Scott Witter]

Wayne,

Stafford CC is between Buffalo and Rochester NY, but a bit closer to Rochester, just east of Batavia on route 237 I believe and due south of the small town of Byron.

If you get a chance to play it, enjoy.  They have a remarkable history of the club with plenty of Travis' drawings.  I'm sure Ian could fill you in more if interested.

[Mike Hendren]

Wayne,

I really like the short 8th at Cascades.  This hole appears to be a breather between the difficult 7th and 9th but it is surprisingly difficult to stop the ball on the front half of the green and very easy to leave the first putt back toward the tee short.  Flynn built up the back of the green, even adding a backstop on the putting surface, to fool the player into thinking the green slopes up toward the rear.  It is very enlightening to stand twenty yards behind that green.  All too often the player needing to pick up a stroke there leaves one instead.

Mike

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

At Rolling Green (3rd) and Cascades (4th) Flynn used visual deception to great effect, to an even greater degree than the 8th. On downhill holes, if an architect reduces the slope but continues to follow the overall downhill nature of the surrounds, the perceptual effect is to make it appear that the green is back to front when in reality it is still front to back only less so than the surrounds.  

Putting on these sorts of holes are extraordinary to watch.  You can watch state and national players think they're putting uphill and blow the putt past the hole and not figure it out when they come up woefully short on the return putt.  

On RGGC 3, it is almost impossible to perceive the actual slope anywhere on the green.  Flynn compounded this effect with the toplines of the bunkers--higher in the back and lower in the front to enhance the misperception.  It is genius!

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

  #3 at RGGC is so deceptive that it has consistently fooled the members. The common statement is "this green is faster uphill than downhill". In the interclub matches this year my partner kept saying this. I aked him why he was willing to defy the laws of physics so easily.

[wsmorrison]

"Sorry..I've been busy doing required "reading".  Talk more soon."

Mike C,

Glad to hear it and look forward to getting together to discuss.  121,738 words and counting...a bit more than you have to consider.  Progress is very steady!  Call me to arrange an agreeable time to meet. Beer is on me--it was on you, literally, at Hidden Creek    Sorry 'bout that!

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

Did I tell you I'm a speed reader?

I started it today and finished it, as well.  

I think we need to discuss over 18 at Lancaster.  Nice work, my friend, but fine tuning will make it great.  I think Flynn would agree that the last 10% is what makes the difference.

I'll call next week.

[John Kirk]

For you west coasters, Pacific Dunes #18 slopes away from the player.

I can't remember the number, but there's one at Fort Ord - Bayonet as well, a short par four.  It's been about 20 years.

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