Deepdale

[Andy Silis]

I'm scheduled to play Deepdale in mid Sept. I believe the architect is Dick Wilson. Is this solely his work or have any other architects been involved during its existence? How does Deepdale rank in Wilson's portfolio of designs? What can I expect?------As always, thanks to the treehouse members in advance!

Andy Silis

[rgkeller]

You can expect a wonderful facility, excellent conditioning, severe greens, superb food and an abundance of doglegs left.

[TEPaul]

C&W give the only architectural attribution on present Deepdale to Dick Wilson with some remodel attribution to Dick Wilson (C&W don't much distinguish what "R" (remodel) means or the extent of it). Deepdale (the club) bounced from one side of what was to become the Long Island Expressway to the other side of it! The original Deepdale on the other side of what is now the Long Island Expressway was the baby of William K. Vanderbilt and when the club had to move in the 1950s the membership was impressive.

What you can expect in the way of the salient character of the course is some of the wildest and most difficult greens to putt imaginable! This club was totally run by a Mr Allen (of the famous Allen & Co, NYC). Some of the stories about how he ran the club are pretty funny.

There's a pro, J.R. Delich, who's down in my area now, a senior player now and still a good one (he spent a few years on the European Senior tour circuit) who was the long time pro under Mr Allen at Deepdale.

A few years ago he told me he wasn't completely sure how Mr Allen became aware of him or why he wanted him but J.R. was playing in a local pro event in Long Island and frankly he was leading the tournament and word came to him in the middle of the round that Mr Allen wanted to see him and speak to him immediately.

JR said to the messanger to tell Mr Allen that he'd call him when he got finished and hopefully won the tournament but one of JR's fellow competitors said he should forget about winning this tournament, pack it in immediately and rush in there and talk to Mr Allen as it just might change his life. So J.R did that and he did say it did change his life!

J.R also said that the amount of play at Deepdale was ridiculous it was so low!

Anyway, have a good time at Deepdale and concentrate hard on your putts!  

[Andy Silis]

Thanks for the responses!

TEPaul: Hard to imagine greens any wilder than Friars Head where I had the privelege to play in May! The green speeds at Friars Head were in keeping with the slopes and undulations built into the greens. Can I expect this at Deepdale or do I need to bring my "bathtub" putter??

Andy Silis

[TEPaul]

Andy:

I'm from Long Island originally but I haven't played golf at Deepdale for eons. They were pretty notable for severity back then but I'm just sort of telling you now what they're reputation has always been.

[Gene Greco]

bring your bathtub putter - they are severely sloped and are like lightening. make sure you ask your caddie as you approach each green where not to be or you will four-putt.

[LenBum]

I haven't played Deepdale but numerous members at my club(Shinnecock Hills) are members there and the greens are notorous for being very tough to almost unplayable when they are up to speed. You may want to make a phone call to check when they do their fall green aeration. The majority of private clubs here on Long Island do their greens in September. But I do believe Deepdale holds off until October. Ours are done right after Labor Day. If you get a chance Fresh Meadow is right next door. Sarazen won the 1932 US Open there. Great track.

[Craig Disher]

TEP-
Do you recall any of the original Deepdale? You might have been just a sprite when it closed - but you do have a remarkable memory. I've often wondered why the club didn't stay on site and make changes necessary to accommodate the expressway. Comparing the original design to the Lake Success property shows that actually not too much land was lost. Most of the holes could have been saved - unfortunately the Alps and Biarritz would have been goners.

LenBum - I think Sarazen won the Open at the original Fresh Meadow in Flushing which closed in the 1940s.

[Andy Silis]

Len!

Thanks for the info re aeration. My host confirmed they don't aerate till Oct. Fresh Meadow is on my future play list. This trip I am playing Deepdale, East Hampton and then finishing off with Inwood. How're the conditions at your club ( Shinnecock ) post Open. ( In my humble opinion, the "fairest toughest track in golf".) Are the greens back to their perfect pre Open form?

Andy Silis

[TEPaul]

Craig:

I don't recall any of the old Deepdale Macdonald/Raynor course. Whatever I know about it I learned from Dan Wexler's "Missing Links". From Dan's description of the events with the Expressway in 1954 it does seem the club really didn't have to move, and that they looked into staying with the loss of a few holes but decided against it. What remained of the course became the Lake Success C.C. but the holes that remained were apparently all redesigned.

The present Deepdale, although it continues to have a very influential membership apparently does not own the land of the golf club, and there have been some rumors in recent years that the township or village wanted to turn Deepdale into a local or public course.

The Macdonald/Raynor course I really was familiar with was the old Links Club that wasn't far from Deepdale. Unfortunately that's gone too now.

[SPDB]

You'll find a course that but for its membership rolls would get very little attention. I'm not so sure I would place it in the Top 10 on long island. For better Wilson, go to Meadow Brook.

[LenBum]

LenBum - I think Sarazen won the Open at the original Fresh Meadow in Flushing which closed in the 1940s.

Interesting. Here is the website I was quoting. I think this is the course he's playing, correct?

http://thegolfcourses.net/golfcourses/NY/13175.htm

Andy, the conditions at Shinnecock are to say the least amazing.
While some greens still have small areas that need some growth, overall they are back to normal. The first green which was by far the worst is coming back. The fairways are near perfect. The Ladies Club Championship started today and with a single cut at probably .120 and rolled once they were in the 10 1/2 area on the stimp. No need for anything more.
If you look around closely you can still see some of the US Open damage. Nothing in the playing areas, but it's there. Mostly on the banks of bunkers and the like.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

LenBum - I think Sarazen won the Open at the original Fresh Meadow in Flushing which closed in the 1940s.

Interesting. Here is the website I was quoting. I think this is the course he's playing, correct?

http://thegolfcourses.net/golfcourses/NY/13175.htm

Andy, the conditions at Shinnecock are to say the least amazing.
While some greens still have small areas that need some growth, overall they are back to normal. The first green which was by far the worst is coming back. The fairways are near perfect. The Ladies Club Championship started today and with a single cut at probably .120 and rolled once they were in the 10 1/2 area on the stimp. No need for anything more.
If you look around closely you can still see some of the US Open damage. Nothing in the playing areas, but it's there. Mostly on the banks of bunkers and the like.

Len-

  I'm not piling on, but the 1932 Open was held at Fresh Meadow CC, but at the AW Tillinghast course, in Fresh Meadow, Queens, which now better serves the population of NY as housing and a shopping center  

It was right near what became the L.I. expressway--Fresh Meadow cinema and several other things currently sit where it used to be.  You can see part of the site from the expressway--it's all pavement now.  

Personally,  I'd rather pull a current day Robert Moses and raze the buildings, displace the current populace, and Craig Disher and I can rebuild the golf course from old aerials.  

Open to all GCA'ers.  

I'd heard it was a hell of a test of golf.  Part of my family lived in that area of Queens back then.  

The current Fresh Meadow was called the Lakeville Club at one point, which was originally designed by C.H Alison, and Fresh Meadow bought it after moving from the original location in the 1940's or so.  

[Craig Disher]

LenBum,
What the site says and what I said are consistent - if you're willing to make a distinction between "club" and "course."  The site says

"The signature hole is #12, a 456-yard, par 4, requiring an approach shot over water to a small, well-bunkered green. This club hosted the 1932 U.S. Open, won by the legendary Gene Sarazen."

The "club" certainly hosted the '32 Open, won by Sarazen. However, the Open was played in Flushing at the site of Tillinghast's old Fresh Meadow - near the intersection of 188th St. and Union Turnpike. The course that the site refers to was originally C.H. Alison's Lakeville GC which was renamed Fresh Meadow when the club moved there in the 1940s.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Craig-

  Thanks for clarifying.  Do you have an aerial of AWT's Fresh Meadow so I can get to work being Robert Moses?  

Of course, it will have to have a great range, because I am one who "hits it great on the range..."

[LenBum]

Tricky the way they word it. The club "hosted" the US Open, not the course.

[ChipOat]

LenBum:

At the risk of sounding sanctimonious, Shinnecock's club history is not in the least bit shy about their historic and important role of the CLUB hosting the 1896 U.S. Open on a different golf course than today's glorious William Flynn (w/a little CB MacDonald) layout.

Would you also consider that "tricky"?

[Tripp_Davis]

To Andy Silis and the others that posted on Deepdale, I have worked on both the current and former Deepdale.  I "massaged" the greens on #5 and #8, at the current Deepdale, both of which had green speeds bring both to the point of having very few pin locations.  On #5, we took a green with with 7-10% slopes from back to front and recreated the back pin Wilson originally had and we soften the middle of the green in two spots to get those pins back.  On #8, we restored the back left pin and softend the middle so that a ball could stop when coming from the back of the green, rather than rolling off the front and 40 yards down into the fairway.  The current Deepdale is one of the better golf experiences you may ever have, owing a great deal to the way Bob Heaney (club manager) runs the club house and to Tom Fedora (golf course superintendent) for the way he maintains the course (possibly the most pristine golf course you may ever play).  The course itself has a very good mix of holes and it is very fun to play.  Other than the greens, it is not too difficult, but the greens make it very tough at times.  At the old Deepdale, a Macdonald/Raynor, the Long Island Expressway took a good bit of the course and only #1, part of #2, #7, #9, #17 and #18 are really original.  However, those original parts were largely untouched.  The club was having significant problems with drainage (because of the LIE) and we went in there last fall with an Engineer and worked on creating detention basins to keep the course from flooding at least once a year.  In doing so, we used the earth from the detention basins to remake many of the holes with Macdonald/Raynor bunkers that are similar to those that are oringal, we added a good many tees, and we had the opportuntiy to rebuild the 6th hole as a Redan.  It would be hard pressed to call it a Macdonald/Raynor today, but we gave it some of that heritage back.  For golf history buffs it is definitely worth playing to see some of the unique greens and bunkering.  We were not allowed during that project to address things on the course that did not relate to the "drainage project" or could use dirt from the drainage project, so we did not really do much with some of the bunkers and greens that were built in the 1950's when the LIE came through.  The club is planning on having us do this in the near future.  I would say that this time two years from now it will be more of the Macdonal/Raynor "rebirth" the club envisions.

[LenBum]

"At the risk of sounding sanctimonious"


 It does

My reference to the statement being tricky wasn't intended to be a slight to Fresh Meadow. I said it was tricky, not a lie. There are of course a few differences . Shinnecock has had a few other events on the "new" course since 1896. Also the "new" course is sort of in the neighborhood of the original course.


 

[Craig Disher]

I didn't realize how much of the original Deepdale was lost until I compared old photos of Deepdale to the Lake Success property. Most holes were irretrievably lost - some off the picture to the left. The original course had a large, treed area in the middle which was used for several of the new holes at Lake Success.

#1, #17 and #18 are about all that could be considered originals, although #18 has a new tee more to the east and south.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Lake Success used to have occassional assistant Pro events.  The original greens were absolutely treacherous.  It is a rare occurrance when easy pins are used for assistant events.  I haven't played there since the early 90's and still remember the original 17 and 18 greens.  As for the current Deepdale, those who have played it, I always envision how certain holes could be tweeked into becoming better holes.  My favorite thought is moving #9 green parrallel to #18 fairway set up on the hill in front of the clubhouse.  Those who criticize the layout tend to call it Dogleg Left Deepdale!  There are 8Dogleg lefts and only 3 dogleg rights.  By the way, the Deepdale caddies are the elite caddies of Met NY.  Quite a few pros use them regularly in the local tournaments.  I use Guy Saunders--He is a great greens reader and also is very well read making him a great conversationalist.  He is very popular in the area.  That can be said for quite a few of their caddies.  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I always enjoy playing Deepdale because it requires a good level of strategic thinking.  The greens are so severe and during the Spring and Fall usually stimping at 11.  There are literally only 5 pins on the 8th green, even though it is @30 yards by 16yards.  To score well, a good player will have to fire away from several pins--also, it is better to lay back on the tee ball on holes 3, 8, 9, and 10.  In tournaments, I have seen quite a few players screw up these holes because they could not control their spin from such proximate positions.  A ball spun off the 8th is a bogey at best!  I blew a semifinal LIPGA match by laying up to the wrong distance on 12 and spinning the ball back 40feet for a well timed 3 putt--the putt had nearly 10 feet of break. Deepdale's strength is the par 3's.  One short up hill, a medium downhill to a long narrow angled green, another medium to wide @20 yard deep green at an opposite angle of the other medium length hole.  Finally, a brutally tough 17th that is downhill at 220 to a 40 yard green with a couple of sucker pin locations cut behind bunkers, and the green has some very severe areas.  Deepdale is not a ground game course, since almost every green is fronted by bunkers or 10ft plus elevated slopes.  It may not be Piping Rock or Bethpage Black, but it is a fun course  to play.  Quite a few local great players play out of the club, including the 2002 US mid-Am Champ. And of course the pro--Darrel Kestner who is even a better guy than his steller playing record.  Every one of his assistants can shoot a serious number!  Hopefully, this provides some helpful insight.

[Andy Silis]

Thanks to everyone for their replies!!!!

Tripp: What will I see regarding the bunkering styles of Wilson vs Mac/Raynor? Is there a semblance of continuity in the look, or is it obvious which holes you "restored" and which ones feature original Wilson bunkering? I would think that that would be the case, but I'm interested in your thoughts.


Andy Silis

[Tripp_Davis]

To A Silis - We have only worked on #5 and #8 greens at the current Deepdale.  This course is still very much the course Dick Wilson did in the 1950's.  The original Deepdale, known now as Lake Success was the course designed by Macdonald/Raynor, which is where we did a signficant amount of work earlier this year and "restored" bunkers in really more of a Raynor style that is much like what he did there originally.  As others have pointed out, the current Lake Success was changed greatly in the 1950's for the LIE, but there are a few "original" holes.  The map that was put up is a little off with the overlay of the original holes is a little off, but not far.  However, there are enough original Raynor features that have remained or that we truthfully restored to give a Raynor fan a good look at his unique style.  As to Dick Wilson, I would suggest trying to play Meadowbrook on the Island as well.

[Craig Disher]

Tripp_Davis,
Where is the old Deepdale routing (shown in red) "off"? I tried to align it as closely as I could and I don't believe it's off by more than a few yards. Obviously, 3, 4, 14, 15, and 16 are off the aerial too the left.

Since the 1st, 17th and 18th greens at the original Deepdale appear to sit exactly at the sites of 3 current Lake Success greens, do you know if those greens are original Mac/Raynor?