[Paul Richards]

from today's Chicago Tribune:



Kemper Lakes to turn private
Will remain open to public until '05
    
By Ed Sherman
Tribune golf reporter

February 26, 2003


One of the Chicago area's top public golf courses is going private.

The new owners of Kemper Lakes Golf Course in Hawthorne Woods say they are bowing to economics and demand. The market for upscale public courses, they say, is declining.

But golfers who want to play the course that hosted the 1989 PGA Championship still have some time. Kemper Lakes is expected to remain open to the public until at least the 2005 golf season.

Once it goes private, the club will not have exclusionary membership policies, officials said. Initiation fees are expected to be in the $40,000 range.

The private Kemper Lakes will be a "golf club, not a country club," according to general manager Janet Dobson. There are no plans to install country club amenities such as a pool and tennis courts. There also won't be any food and beverage minimums.

"The emphasis will be on golf," said Scott Flynn, president of Crown Golf, whose firm manages the course and is a part owner. "We feel like there is a niche for this kind of pure golf club [in the northwest suburbs]."

Flynn expects many Kemper Lakes regulars to stay with the club. Last year, daily-fee players paid $135 per round to play the course.

The new owners had a concern about the club's profitability if it remained public. They paid $18.5 million to buy it.

"We feel the market for upscale courses has peaked, if not flattened out," Flynn said. "The combination of economics and the receptive market make this the appropriate time to do this."

Flynn knows there will be some public course players who will be upset with the move. But he argues many regulars who have paid top dollar for years actually will wind up saving money in the long run.

"People have said for as long as I've been here (more than 20 years), 'When are you going to go private?'" Dobson said. "We've talked to a number of our permanent tee time golfers and they think this is the way to go."

Flynn said the club expects to sign up 275 members.

[JakaB]

Shivas,

How does Kemper Lakes compare to Pine Meadow in your opinion....

[JakaB]

Shivas,

When I lived up there I played the same ratio of more Pine Meadow...I can't remember if it was the cost or what...but from what I'm thinking now....the quality of Pine Meadow might be what was or might just will be the downfall of Kemper...The people who run Pine Meadow define how good management makes a difference...or is this just undue credit given due to pedigree.

[A_Clay_Man]

There's no doubt that Joe Jemsek knew how to run a facility. He reminded me of my college b-ball coach who ran a dog and pony show on the budget of a flee circus. His ego didn't get in his way and wasn't above sweeping the floors or whatever it was that had to be done. Joe was the same way.
Our new GM met Joe back in the 60's and Joe invited him to go for a ride after their first meeting/round. They just went to the gas station and after the attendant (i'm old) filled the tank and asked for the fare Joe asked him where he play golf around there. The attendant thought for a couple of seconds and finaly lit up and said "Cog Hill". Joe whipped out a twenty and told the guy to keep the change. What a class act! (for those that don't know Joe Jemseck owned Cog Hill)

The major difference (as I saw it) between the two was as Shivas' somewhat pointed out, the terrain. Pine Meadow had more natural movement almost everywhere while Kempers was built on mostly flat, and was clearly constructed/manufactured. The epitome of, and no doubt one of the first, CCFAD's.

[John_Conley]

Shiv:

You couldn't pull it off in Orlando, but I'd guess another private club in Chicago won't be hard.  Isn't access tough up there?  We'll learn soon enough.

Rockin' Rollen was the guy with the rainbow wig.  Alas, he ran afoul of the law and is or was incarcerated, if memory serves.

[math major]

Purchase price $18.5mm, now lets take it private and sell 275 memberships at $40,000 each. $11mm something must be missing.

[Kevin_Reilly]

MM, in econ classes they tell you to "ignore sunk costs".  The $18.5M is sunk, so it is irrelevant.  They are only comparing the difference between the economics of the course going forward as either public or private.  I guess the public scenario results in less $$$ coming in than $11M plus annual dues.

John C:  more than you ever thought you need to know about Rockin Rollen:
http://home.pacifier.com/~dkossy/rainbow.html

[THuckaby2]

Hmmmm... from a California perspective, I am openly weeping in envy at a course that hosted a major and at least to me seeing on TV looked interesting at the very least being priced at only $40K.  shivas, you saw what costs $100K plus in the Bay Area - lovely Almaden CC.

That being said, here in CA we also don't have the golf "seasons" IL does, so I guess I ought to cut my price thoughts in half...

So, in reality, the equivalent of $80K in CA terms, plus everything else... when courses like Almaden are the cheapest around at $100K, and everything else is $200K plus, well... Kemper is still seeming like a bargain to me.

Of course this isn't the reality of IL golf - I have no idea what other clubs cost relatively.  But damn, my open weeping still hasn't stopped.

Bottom line also is what the wise Mike Golden once told me about private clubs - if you have to think about the per-round cost, you shouldn't do it.  Seems to me there has to be a large class of IL golfers who will just drop this $40K without thinking, can afford to do so, will do so just for convenience and because they do like the course.

TH

[W.H. Cosgrove]

This is another indication of the upheaval going on in the golf industry.  Mid Level Privates struggling to make it.  CCFADS lowering fees or going bust.  This is the first attempt I have seen that goes against the current trends.  I would think this could be a desperate attempt to find a model that works!

For our sake as golf lovers I wish them well.

[A_Clay_Man]

Kemper is in a nice area and will no doubt be a bargain at 40k.

The interesting turn the industry seems to be taking is one of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Crowding out the riff raff and returning to an elitest personna.

[SBusch (Guest)]

The math works like this:  Sell $12MM in non-equity memberships to reduce your basis from 18 to 6 million.  Once the club is full, you now have a stabilized club which will generate a profit, which you use to cover your remaining debt, or generate a return to your investors, or you sell the whole thing for a profit.  

The Kemper move is more transaction related (Kemper wanted the golf course to stay public) than indicative of a trend.  That said, there will be many changes as golf courses struggle and look internally to make sure they are run correctly.  As part of that, some private clubs will go public or semi-private, and vice-versa, depending on the market.  Others will get turned into houses and strip malls or will go fallow.  It's just part of the cycle.

[rpurd]

It is not only the mid-privates that are experiencing trouble.......a course in Ball Ground, GA which was named in the best private course category a few years back is offering "unaccompanied" tee times.  From what I hear, for $125 you can call up and play anytime during the week.  I feel sorry for those that forked over $60K to join basically a public course.  I guess the owners were not willing to take it on the chin for another $2 million this year........

[Scott_Burroughs]

I immediately recognized that town as being the hometown of Hawk's Ridge, a Cupp design, if I'm not mistaken.  They boasted Augusta-like conditioning and John Smoltz as a member (well, maybe the rags mentioned that part, I don't know).

I'm sure the fact that it's something like an hour out of town didn't help either.  Who lives that far out?  During Atlanta rush hour, that's probably at least 2 hours out.  Could be the same problem as Inniscrone, a little too far out of the way from the city of it's primary desired membership base.

Also, discretionary initiation fees aren't nearly as easy to come by with the economy and stock market dives....

[Paul Richards]

Shivas:

IMHO, Kemper Lakes is the second-best public course in the Chicagoland area (behind Dubs, of course).  Pine Meadow is very nice, probably top 10, but not in the same league.

As I've written here before, I think Kemper's reputation took a big hit with the incredibly benign conditions during the 1989 PGA Championship hosted there.  The pro's destroyed the place in perfect weather, when, in fact, it is anything but an easy course during normal conditions.

That being said, Kemper isn't necessarily a very "fun" course - at least not one I'd like to play everyday.  It's too  hard - and the repetition of hitting a shot over water on every hole wears thin after a while.

I think they will have a tough time getting 275 guys to buck up $40,000 apiece.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul R:

You say Kemper is the 2nd best public in Chi town? Really???

I played the course a few times -- both prior and after the PGA. The course can be tough when the wind blows because of the element of water being close at hand, but the design is simply flanking bunkers and big size greens that you could easily have a doubles match at Wimbledon with plenty of room to spare.

Where is the character and uniqueness of the course? And, if Kemper is indeed the 2nd best public course (until it becomes private) what does that say about the quality of Chicago public courses?

P.S. I think Tom Doak nailed it cleanly on his take on the layout but since you play in the area I would be interested on your take. Many thanks ...

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

There are TONS of very good public courses around the Chicago area.  

My humble opinion is that Dubs is the best - by far.  Kemper is next best.  The Glen Club is pretty good as well.  The next group has about 15 courses that are really, really good - and Pine Meadow falls into this category.

There aren't any areas of the country (that I've seen yet ) that can boast as strong of a Top 20.  I know this debate was here some time ago - New York vs. Chicago.  But I think we are pretty strong.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Rpurd & Scott,

That is interesting to hear about Hawks Ridge if it indeed true.  That place is (Was) a monument to exclusivity, the houses out there (althought there arent many) are in the Multi-million category.  The course certainly exhibits some of the best conditioning that you will find anywhere.  However there are a few holes that are a little strange that keep it from being everything it could be.  

Again I am interested to hear that this might be the case.  Where did you hear that information?  Because I have a couple buddies that live up that side of ATL that I know would love to get out there to get a chance to see it.  And I can definitely say that at only (I hate to say that) $125 it is something that you should see.

[Paul Richards]

rpurd:

Hawk's Ridge is an excellent golf course.  In spite of the nasty Atlanta traffic, it is worth a trip out there to play it.  Take advantage of this offer - if the economy ever turns around  
you might not get this opportunity again.

[Matt_Ward]

I'd be most interested in having knowledgeable folks provide a NY metro area public debate with our friends in Chicago. At a quick glance I think it would be close but with the amoutn of new CCFAD's that have opened in the NY metro area int he last 7-10 years I see the slight edge going to the Apple over Chi town. Any takers?

[rpurd]

I have played HR many of times........it has Augusta like conditioning.........and whether the economy is good or not I can get out there with one phone call and not for $125.  

It is under very good authority that I bring this information to you.......previously being a member at a club in Alpharetta, who is doing the same exact thing (offering tee times to general public), I am very glad I dropped that membership.  I hope the members raise hell at HR, what the hell did they pay all that money for!

[Paul Richards]

Shivas:

I'm glad you mentioned Harborside - two really good public courses.  I would also prefer to see them play a bit more hard-and-fast.

One other really good public course is the TPC at Deere Run.  The Quad Cities aren't exactly a Chicago suburb, but it's worth the trip to go see this course if you are in the area.

[Jeff Goldman]

Does anyone know anything about the courses at Eagle Ridge in Galena?  The General has gotten some good pub., and I keep meaning to schlep out there to see it, but I always consider that Kohler's only 2 1/2 hours away, and head north.

Jeff Goldman

[Paul Richards]

Jeff:

The General is an excellent course - definately worth the trip up there.  The other courses there?  Well, IMHO, keep driving north to Kohler instead ...

[Michael_Choate]

Shivas:

Pine Meadow has been around for along time.  Those of us who attended Carmel H.S. know that significant portions of the course comprised the seminary's course.  I am told it was built in the 20's.  If I remember correctly, a great deal of the back nine comprises the seminary course but I could have it reversed. Joe Jemsek was able to cut a great deal with the archdiocese to take over and renovate the course. I remember being shown the construction plans by Frank Jemsek in the early 80's overlayed over the original course.  As for Kemper, I was the business manager at the course in the early 80's.  I am sorry to see it go private although at a price tag of $18 million which is what the owners paid, it no longer works economically as a public facility.  At the time it opened, it was one of the first public facilities with a private club feel in the Chicago area and very popular.  The conditioning was basically the selling point since the course is basically flat (a few exceptions).  It needs wind to play difficult, and there was no wind for the 89 PGA.  Add greens softened from hard rains on Friday and the course did not stand up well to the pros.  The course never really recovered.  Plus,  Dubs was always the better course from a design perspective  and jumped ahead in peoples' minds once the Western Open moved to the course.  Dick Wilson had better land to work with for Dubs than Dick Nugent did for Kemper.  Kemper is cut out the 70's type genre of course much like PGA National.  Lots of water and sand, tough, but lacking in intersting tactical decisions.

 

strictly my opinion?

Kemper is a tougher golf course, by far.  It has more exacting iron shots.  More green contours.  More potential round-wreckers.  Slightly tighter off the tee.  they're both long.  They're both tough.  But tough ain't everything.  So despite all that, I play Pine Meadow 10 times for every one I play Kemper.  The one thing that Kemper is missing is feel.  Pine Meadow feels like its been there for a long time (even though it's relatively young - '85 or so).  Kemper just feels dated to me.  I expect the Rainbow Head John 3:16 guy to be standing at every tee.  I feel like I should be wearing an Amana hat and Sansabelts when I play there.    (not that there's anything wrong with that).  

[Michael_Choate]

Any idea on who did the original design?

Mike, I knew you'd jump into this sooner or later.  I hadn't forgotten that you used to work at Kemper.  

I played the Mendelein Seminary course before it became Pine Meadow, and from what I remember, it's a combination of the front and back that you can still recognize as comprising the old course.  Here's what I remember:

The "clubhouse" was the seminary, which is back and to the left of #15 green.  

16 is roughly the the first hole.

current 6 and 7 are roughly the 2nd and 3rd holes, but the old #2 was a par 4 and that explains why there's so much open space between #16 green and #6 tee.

I don't remember much else of the old front nine except that it has to have included the current #11 somehow because I remember playing a nine hole match there and we played the front.

current 11 went the other direction over the water that now sits in front of the tee.  The single most obvious reminder of the old course is the rock next to the fairway.  I remember that being on the other side from when I played that course in 81 or whatever.

There was a nice par 3 somewhere in that marshy area back and to the left of #12 green.  

What is now #15 is roughly #18 of the old course, but I dont' think it was a par 5.  I could be mistaken on that.  I think a hole used to exist in that area behind and to the right of the 15th tee (although that's the same marshy area I'm talking about for the par 3)  

There was a par 3 somewhere in the middle of the course (I think it was the old #9) somewhere near the water that the current #4 wraps around.  Come to think of it, I'm certain that #9 on the old course was a par 3.  I wrecked a pretty good 9 by dunking it on that hole.

That's all I remember.  

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