Is Chambers Bay the Moment the Public "Gets It"?

[Garland Bayley]

... While the NW contingent here is fierce in their defense of the course, as a whole I don't sense the love for "their" course like New Yorkers have for Bethpage Park or San Diego residents have for Torry.
...

Chambers is different than what the people of the region are used to playing. They are used to playing what they think of as beautiful courses running through alleys of huge Douglas fir trees on poa anua. Furthermore, they are used to paying approximately 1/2 of what they would have to pay at Chambers Bay. The majority of golfers think trees are an integral part of golf, and many of them will tell you they won't play a course without trees.


Bethpage is very much like New Yorkers would expect given the other courses in the area, i.e., parkland.
Torey is also more like other courses in the area.
Just because the locals don't immediately adopt the oddball nature of the course does not say a thing about the quality or playability of the course.

[Garland Bayley]

Bring back Congressional.  That was sure fun to watch.

+1


And of course the average guy in the grill room thought Congressional was a great and lovely course.

[Adrian_Stiff]

...
Chambers Bay must be impossible for most amateur golfers. I am convinced that we can no longer build golf courses suitable for all standards.
,,,

Amateurs don't play the course from 7700 yards. Chambers Bay is quite easy for most amateurs, especially if they aim away from the bunkers. Using multiple tees allows Chambers Bay to be suitable for almost all.


Rich has played the course with someone on their third time out to play that had a great time.

It was not the length I was questioning. It is the internal and external green contours, but if Richard say's its playable under normal conditions then I will take that as gospel.

[Carl Johnson]

The difficulty I have with evaluating CB is that on TV (my only viewing position) (1) many of the holes look the same, I can't tell one from an other, and (2) I can't see the contours except when the ball is rolling, and I can intuit them (no 3-D TV!).  The shading Fox puts on the greens from time to time doesn't help much either.  One feature that I haven't seen yet is use of a tracer to show optimum putt line.  Maybe the CB greens are too convoluted for that technology, or may Fox just hasn't wanted to pay for it (yet?).  I will say that some average golfers I watched with Sat. thought watching the pros on it was fantastic, a great challenge, and that they'd love to play it because the greens would be so much fun.  "I don't care what I'd shoot, but it looks like lots of fun" was one comment. The same guy, an 8.7 index 68-year-old said the greens reminded him of playing miniature golf at Myrtle Beach, which he thought was lots of fun (seriously).  Personally, I'm not a miniature golf fan, but I still think I'd enjoy the CB greens.

[Terry Lavin]

It looks interesting on television, to be sure, but it unfortunately bastardizes links golf in a manner that rather deliberately seems designed to purposefully frustrate the golfer while protecting par. As a result, it is a good fit with the USGA's mission in this annual championship. It's their event and now with the likes of Chambers, Torrey and Erin Hills, the USGA has partners who accede to its every whim, as opposed to the typical old line private club. Those clubs are also now falling in line (look no further than Merion), which is the only way they'll stay on the rota.   The USGA likes to talk sustainability, but they're all about torturing pro golfers, even if they use less water and fertilizer in the process. And the USGA doesn't appear to care about economic sustainability as these prized venues all cost a lot of money for the public to play.

[Adrian_Stiff]

...
Chambers Bay must be impossible for most amateur golfers. I am convinced that we can no longer build golf courses suitable for all standards.
,,,

Amateurs don't play the course from 7700 yards. Chambers Bay is quite easy for most amateurs, especially if they aim away from the bunkers. Using multiple tees allows Chambers Bay to be suitable for almost all.


Rich has played the course with someone on their third time out to play that had a great time.

[Paul Gray]

Richard,

Give up on Adrian. He knows that everything you've said is true as he knows full well how playable firm and fast courses here in the UK are for ALL levels of golfer. He has his own populist brand of target golf to promote which he is still convinced is the future of top ranked courses. He's not going to disagree with his members that have chosen target golf when they dismiss CB, even though he has more than enough knowledge to explain what the aim was, why it was a good idea and why certain aspects haven't been ideal.

Sorry to be so dismissive myself but I've watched Adrian do battle with his ego one too many times before.

[Jim_Coleman]

   This golf course is The Emperor's New Clothes.  True believers are desperate for it to be considered good architecture, but it just isn't.  It's silly, at least to me.  And, it's in bad shape, notwithstanding the true believers wishing to the contrary.  Yes, too wet is bad.  But no grass is too.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Richard,

Give up on Adrian. He knows that everything you've said is true as he knows full well how playable firm and fast courses here in the UK are for ALL levels of golfer. He has his own populist brand of target golf to promote which he is still convinced is the future of top ranked courses. He's not going to disagree with his members that have chosen target golf when they dismiss CB, even though he has more than enough knowledge to explain what the aim was, why it was a good idea and why certain aspects haven't been ideal.

Sorry to be so dismissive myself but I've watched Adrian do battle with his ego one too many times before.

Paul - You are totally wrong. I am happy to believe what Richard Choi says (that it's playable) I can see that if its maintained at a higher height of cut those 40 yard roll offs won't happen. I am asking some questions that's all. I really enjoyed RCs tour of the course and really appreciate the work he put in.
I was hoping like you that CB was going to convince more people but it has worked the other way. Largely it is the bad putting surfaces, but their are other negatives that have gotten thrown up.
I don't like the idea that most people like the idea that coming in over water at 18 is best practice. I like the ground game. I am convinced we can't have the same course that the pro's will like and so will the 54 handicappers. I do think things will change in the future and when this generation of raters go the next will be the golfers of today and they like conditioning, fairness, length, water and more penal golf than strategic. That does not mean that some quirky contouring can't be introduced.

[Don Mahaffey]

Garland,
I'm enjoying the tournament and while the greens talk and lack of good spectator viewing is tainting the story a bit, all in all I think the tournament has been entertaining.

My point was more along the lines of using public funds to build a major sports venue for golf. That is what appears to me to have happened at CB, and I think the way it was instantly on the USGA rota for the Am and Open proves that they had it in their sights, or were somehow involved, even during development.

Does this mean other public entities will try and build golf venues for major events? I think that is an interesting question and it would appear you believe that motivation and expense is justified if they land a major event.  If that is the measure for success, then the project is successful. However, that is a different measuring stick then what we normally think of when developing golf with public dollars. Should other public entities follow suit and try and team up with the USGA or PGA and take the same route?

[Garland Bayley]

   This golf course is The Emperor's New Clothes.  True believers are desperate for it to be considered good architecture, but it just isn't.  It's silly, at least to me.  And, it's in bad shape, notwithstanding the true believers wishing to the contrary.  Yes, too wet is bad.  But no grass is too.

Pat Mucci wants to know if you have played the course.

[Garland Bayley]

Don,


As I have posted elsewhere, RTJ II convinced them to go for a course to host a major championship. They did, and they got the USGA. I think it was an excellent move, and I think others could copy it, and succeed.


Now if the USGA would control the ball by reverting to a standard giving us something akin to what it was before it caused a distance explosion, then it would no longer be as smart a move to go for creating major championship venues.

[Joe Zucker]

I'm not sure which Chambers thread is appropriate to post this question on, but would the public like it if their home course changed setups randomly for everyday weekend play like we see at the US Open?  For example, would it be fun if one medium length par 4 was moved up to 280 and played from the regular ladies/short tees? Obviously not all courses have the flexibility or clientele to do this and it might be best utilized at a country club where all players know the course well.  I would be excited for a surprise like this, but I'm not sure what the "public" would think.  Has anyone seen something like this?  Did the players like it?

[John Kavanaugh]

Joe,

Victoria National does this regularly. It's fun and a huge advantage for certain players from given tees. I love it.

[Sean_A]

The course is fantastic...until they get to the greens.  The golfing public will never accept greens like these.

+1, well said.

   It would be cool if they had a few test chipping greens with the modern bent varieties out there to see how they fair.  With no shade issues the modern bent grass IMO would keep the poa out.  They also require much less water.  Some of the fescue elitist haven't experienced the modern bents in a non Arb setting and might be surprised.    Enjoying the US Open.   

The golfing public pay a load of money to play on greens no better (and likely worse) than at CB.  Ever play in GB&I?  People get over the slow and bumpy greens if the course is compelling. If they didn't Scotland would be bankrupt.


Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

I've done my part on a pair of websites to convince the public to "get it," although I won't provide links lest I be accused of pimping my wares.

[Terry Lavin]

Let's be real here. If these conditions occurred at the first PAC NW Open at Seattle Golf Club, the USGA would quietly rip the club and never host another Open north of San Francisco. Now, they'll wait for some separation, some healing and announce that they'll be back in ten years. They own this now.