Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Connolly on January 14, 2024, 11:52:56 AM
-
Some recognition of great work done in 2023 by the architect community.
Best new private - Ladera Golf Club, Thermal, CA (Hanse and Wagner)
Best new public - The Lido, Nekoosa, WI (CB Macdonald/Doak) - with an assist to Peter Flory (my add!)
Best renovation - Lookout Mountain Club, GA (Raynor/Rae and Franz)
Best transformation - Lake Merced Golf Club, Daly City, CA 9 (Hanse and Wagner)
Several runners-up for each category as well.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/americas-best-new-courses-2024-lost-classics-reinvention?utm_medium=email&utm_source=011324&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM47789&uuid=ba4291d56ca44e1d930c11292aa0567c
-
Isn’t The Lido, private?
-
There is limited availability for resort guests Sunday thru Thursday so technically not purely private.
-
Cool to see Belleair West recognized....
-
I don't understand any of these awards anymore. Lido could and maybe should have been listed in the private club category; likewise, it's hard to see Lake Merced as a "transformation" instead of a "renovation / restoration" by the definitions they present.
It's almost as if they are deciding on the categories in order to help certain courses win. Did they want The Lido not to be overshadowed by Ladera, or the other way around? Your guess is as good as mine.
-
it's hard to see Lake Merced as a "transformation" instead of a "renovation / restoration" by the definitions they present.
It's almost as if they are deciding on the categories in order to help certain courses win. Did they want The Lido not to be overshadowed by Ladera, or the other way around? Your guess is as good as mine.
Agreed. maybe Derek can add some input.
I played Lake Merced and Belleair. Belleair was more transformational but Lake Merced is a better course. Lake Merced had quite a bit of restoration in it but also some new holes. Hard to understand how panelists can judge these transformations unless they are presented with some detailed photos and information.
-
it's hard to see Lake Merced as a "transformation" instead of a "renovation / restoration" by the definitions they present.
It's almost as if they are deciding on the categories in order to help certain courses win. Did they want The Lido not to be overshadowed by Ladera, or the other way around? Your guess is as good as mine.
Agreed. maybe Derek can add some input.
I played Lake Merced and Belleair. Belleair was more transformational but Lake Merced is a better course. Lake Merced had quite a bit of restoration in it but also some new holes. Hard to understand how panelists can judge these transformations unless they are presented with some detailed photos and information.
Derek changed the requirements for playing the best reno and transformations. The panelist needs to have played the course before the work was done.
-
I don't understand any of these awards anymore. Lido could and maybe should have been listed in the private club category; likewise, it's hard to see Lake Merced as a "transformation" instead of a "renovation / restoration" by the definitions they present.
It's almost as if they are deciding on the categories in order to help certain courses win. Did they want The Lido not to be overshadowed by Ladera, or the other way around? Your guess is as good as mine.
Tom,
That was my thought as well. I don't consider The Lido a public course, but for this award, they did. Now GD got two of the most talked about new courses as BEST of the year.
-
It's almost as if they are deciding on the categories in order to help certain courses win. Did they want The Lido not to be overshadowed by Ladera, or the other way around? Your guess is as good as mine.
Are you saying this is a rigged voting process? That does seem to be trendy these days..... ;D
-
I don't have the data, but my guess would be that something like 15-20% of the rounds per year at the Lido will be by members. Maybe another 25-30% of the rounds will be their guests. And 50-60% will be resort guests.
Only a few members live near the course, so most of them have to make a special trip to play- say a 3.5 hour drive from Chicago. They tend to bring guests for those excursions.
I guess something like Prairie Club would be comparable.
-
I don't have the data, but my guess would be that something like 15-20% of the rounds per year at the Lido will be by members. Maybe another 25-30% of the rounds will be their guests. And 50-60% will be resort guests.
Only a few members live near the course, so most of them have to make a special trip to play- say a 3.5 hour drive from Chicago. They tend to bring guests for those excursions.
I guess something like Prairie Club would be comparable.[size=78%] [/size]
Thanks for the information Peter!
I was told when I was there in August, that Lido would be private and only a few resort guests could play there. That is why I made the comment I made earlier. Since you have presented new information about the rounds played by resort guests, I guess it would be considered a resort course with that type of play. Thanks for clearing that up!!
-
I think the issue with the awards regarding the Lido is just plain old taxonomy. On the wiki, I just put semi-private and moved on. I know there are technicalities there, but I feel like the golf world suddenly forgot we have a specific term for courses that could play without an invitation, but are not really just open to the public.
-
I wonder what the opinion of the Lido members is. Is it private with the occasional resort guest or is is semi private? If I was a member, I would want to understand the distinction. Semi private is like semi pregnant. Really doesn’t exist. You are either private or you are public. Nothing in between.
-
I can call Sand Valley and book a tee time at The Lido without knowing a member - therefore it is Public. I cannot do that with Ladera.
They could get specific and add additional category: Semi-Private
-
I wonder what the opinion of the Lido members is. Is it private with the occasional resort guest or is is semi private? If I was a member, I would want to understand the distinction. Semi private is like semi pregnant. Really doesn’t exist. You are either private or you are public. Nothing in between.
Daryl, what if a course is open to the public Monday-Wednesday, but closed off to members Thursday-Sunday?
-
I can call Sand Valley and book a tee time at The Lido without knowing a member - therefore it is Public. I cannot do that with Ladera.
Therefore it is a public course. Question answered. I would not want to be member. ;D
-
I wonder what the opinion of the Lido members is. Is it private with the occasional resort guest or is is semi private? If I was a member, I would want to understand the distinction. Semi private is like semi pregnant. Really doesn’t exist. You are either private or you are public. Nothing in between.
Daryl, what if a course is open to the public Monday-Wednesday, but closed off to members Thursday-Sunday?
Then it’s public. Apparently GD agrees with that.
-
Semi private is like semi pregnant. Really doesn’t exist. You are either private or you are public. Nothing in between.
I just... there are so many types of organizational structures that this dichotomy is silly at best. ANGC is a for-profit comany that chooses not to allow public access. Invited/ClubCorp is a for-profit that choses to allow public access. Most "private clubs" in America are 501c7's that can't advertise or offer tee times to the public, however, they are allowed to let you play if you inquire about playing, and many do. UK clubs don't have these restrictions so most offer tee times to the public, some don't, and some on rare occation. Many American clubs are equity memberships that allow public play, but don't have to. There are also essentially public clubs that offer memberships to get priority play times.
There are a half a dozen ways clubs can be somewhere in between fully public and fully private. Insisting it must be one or the other without substance is just a form of a no-true-scotsman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) argument.
-
Semi private is like semi pregnant. Really doesn’t exist. You are either private or you are public. Nothing in between.
I just... there are so many types of organizational structures that this dichotomy is silly at best. ANGC is a for-profit comany that chooses not to allow public access. Invited/ClubCorp is a for-profit that choses to allow public access. Most "private clubs" in America are 501c7's that can't advertise or offer tee times to the public, however, they are allowed to let you play if you inquire about playing, and many do. UK clubs don't have these restrictions so most offer tee times to the public, some don't, and some on rare occation. Many American clubs are equity memberships that allow public play, but don't have to. There are also essentially public clubs that offer memberships to get priority play times.
There are a half a dozen ways clubs can be somewhere in between fully public and fully private. Insisting it must be one or the other without substance is just a form of a no-true-scotsman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) argument.
You can’t have a dozen categories for rankings. That would be stupid. Either have only one category (Golf course) or two (private or public). With only two, then any course that allows any public non guest play is public. So, Lido is public. No big deal. Another example. Linville GC used to be public. I played there several times and was not a member. Guests at the Esseeloa lodge used to be able to book tee times. Not anymore. Therefore, Linville GC is now private and should be listed as one of the best private courses in the US. Lido should be listed as one of the best public course in the US. As it is. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
-
You can’t have a dozen categories for rankings. That would be stupid.
Or we could all just call the Lido "semi-private," which it is, and just avoid the urge to bend over backwards to give awards it's not really eligible for. GD would have done well to give a special award, just for this year, to the Lido for best semi-private club if they really wanted to.
-
From what I understand, Lido allows four (or thereabouts) resort tee times a day. 2024 has been sold out for months. Technically, it is open to the public, but you have to be lucky or connected to get a tee time.
-
Winged Foot was allowing public to book tee times on a few Mondays last year for $3500. Does that make it public? Semi-private?
-
Winged Foot was allowing public to book tee times on a few Mondays last year for $3500. Does that make it public? Semi-private?
Access is contingent on $$$$. If you look at events hosted by The Golfers Journal, Fried Egg and the like some of the pricing is truly eye popping. I’m most baffled by the freight these orgs charge at public/resort venues where if you set up the trip yourself you would pay far less. Finally I realize that the sponsors of these events are in it to make money…..
-
It's almost as if they are deciding on the categories in order to help certain courses win. Did they want The Lido not to be overshadowed by Ladera, or the other way around? Your guess is as good as mine.
Are you saying this is a rigged voting process? That does seem to be trendy these days..... ;D
I very much DID NOT say that. There is a difference between a rigged voting process [not counting the votes correctly], and making an editorial decision on how to categorize the contestants, which is what I wondered about.
I am not a GOLF DIGEST panelist and don't know many, so I don't know whether they told the panelists beforehand that Lido was to compete in the public space, or whether they decided afterward, with the numbers in hand. They also did not publish their numbers, so we can't see which course would have benefited from any reclassification . . . though they used to send the results to all panelists, so maybe someone here does know.
Likewise, I don't have any reason to think that any votes were altered in the recent GOLF Magazine list. That was an accusation by one guy whose course got left off. It's worth noting that I made my observation even though my course won one of the prizes, which is a very different situation.
-
Panelists knew that Lido was a resort course.
-
Panelists knew that Lido was a resort course.
Thanks Tommy.
-
Semi private is like semi pregnant. Really doesn’t exist. You are either private or you are public. Nothing in between.
I just... there are so many types of organizational structures that this dichotomy is silly at best. ANGC is a for-profit comany that chooses not to allow public access. Invited/ClubCorp is a for-profit that choses to allow public access. Most "private clubs" in America are 501c7's that can't advertise or offer tee times to the public, however, they are allowed to let you play if you inquire about playing, and many do. UK clubs don't have these restrictions so most offer tee times to the public, some don't, and some on rare occation. Many American clubs are equity memberships that allow public play, but don't have to. There are also essentially public clubs that offer memberships to get priority play times.
There are a half a dozen ways clubs can be somewhere in between fully public and fully private. Insisting it must be one or the other without substance is just a form of a no-true-scotsman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) argument.
You can’t have a dozen categories for rankings. That would be stupid. Either have only one category (Golf course) or two (private or public). With only two, then any course that allows any public non guest play is public. So, Lido is public. No big deal. Another example. Linville GC used to be public. I played there several times and was not a member. Guests at the Esseeloa lodge used to be able to book tee times. Not anymore. Therefore, Linville GC is now private and should be listed as one of the best private courses in the US. Lido should be listed as one of the best public course in the US. As it is. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
So what are Sunningdale and Royal Melbourne and Muirfield and Royal County Down, etc?
-
Semi private is like semi pregnant. Really doesn’t exist. You are either private or you are public. Nothing in between.
I just... there are so many types of organizational structures that this dichotomy is silly at best. ANGC is a for-profit comany that chooses not to allow public access. Invited/ClubCorp is a for-profit that choses to allow public access. Most "private clubs" in America are 501c7's that can't advertise or offer tee times to the public, however, they are allowed to let you play if you inquire about playing, and many do. UK clubs don't have these restrictions so most offer tee times to the public, some don't, and some on rare occation. Many American clubs are equity memberships that allow public play, but don't have to. There are also essentially public clubs that offer memberships to get priority play times.
There are a half a dozen ways clubs can be somewhere in between fully public and fully private. Insisting it must be one or the other without substance is just a form of a no-true-scotsman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) argument.
You can’t have a dozen categories for rankings. That would be stupid. Either have only one category (Golf course) or two (private or public). With only two, then any course that allows any public non guest play is public. So, Lido is public. No big deal. Another example. Linville GC used to be public. I played there several times and was not a member. Guests at the Esseeloa lodge used to be able to book tee times. Not anymore. Therefore, Linville GC is now private and should be listed as one of the best private courses in the US. Lido should be listed as one of the best public course in the US. As it is. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
So what are Sunningdale and Royal Melbourne and Muirfield and Royal County Down, etc?
Sunningdale et al. are in a category all by themselves. They are very private for residents but are gracious to overseas players like me. The same holds true for some US courses that offer to host players that belong to the Sunnningdales of the world.