Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Niall C on May 01, 2023, 08:46:42 AM
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Please don't make this a political thread.
Trump is in the process of visiting his overseas golfing empire in Scotland and Ireland and has announced that he will be cutting the ribbon on the second course at Balmedie. Does anyone know whether Hawtree is still involved ?
Niall
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Press reports suggest Martin is the architect for the new MacLeod course.
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Press reports suggest Martin is the architect for the new MacLeod course.
There you have it.
Thread is now over.
;D ;D
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Apparently they started on site a few months ago.
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Does anyone have a sense of how busy the first course is?
I never understood why they wanted two 18's, except as a bargaining chip for more housing or for getting the first one through.
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Does the Trump organization provide the money for the resorts/courses in Scotland and Ireland or do they have a financial partner? I know for Trump hotels it is often a licensing deal where the Trump organization has very little involvement in many instances, other than getting a fee for the name.
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Has anyone wondered how much Turnberry has made per year on green fees alone - its astonishing how much and am really curious why its not shown as profit making business
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Has anyone wondered how much Turnberry has made per year on green fees alone - its astonishing how much and am really curious why its not shown as profit making business
Has Turnberry turned a profit? Trump spent a bomb on the hotel and course. There was the small matter of Covid as well.
Ciao
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Has anyone wondered how much Turnberry has made per year on green fees alone - its astonishing how much and am really curious why its not shown as profit making business
Has Turnberry turned a profit? Trump spent a bomb on the hotel and course. There was the small matter of Covid as well.
Ciao
Have PM you Sean :) they certainly made a lot of money on green fees alone. Don't think Covid was a huge factor in this regard for 2022.
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Apparently they started on site a few months ago.
I must have missed that, that and the press release. Did they get a separate planning consent for the second course or was it wrapped up in the consent for the first course ?
Niall
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Does anyone have a sense of how busy the first course is?
I never understood why they wanted two 18's, except as a bargaining chip for more housing or for getting the first one through.
I imagine the second course would help with the lodging and accommodation and might even make the hotel idea viable although I suspect not to the scale as previously envisaged. The housing is really a separate entity and was an attempt at maximising what he could do with the land.
Niall
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Apparently they started on site a few months ago.
I must have missed that, that and the press release. Did they get a separate planning consent for the second course or was it wrapped up in the consent for the first course ?
Niall
They had separate planning about 4 or 5 years ago. In fact, I suspect they are working on it now so the planning doesn’t lapse.
Only info I have that they are working on it is anecdotal from a member who sees it. I’m not sure they have even been informed. Very low key.
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Ally
So low key there is nothing on the web-site but I suspect there will be a big splash soon enough if Trump is doing a cutting of the ribbon.
Yes not letting the planning lapse might be a factor but I think I'm right in saying you now only have 3 years to start the project, but could be wrong.
Niall
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Has anyone wondered how much Turnberry has made per year on green fees alone - its astonishing how much and am really curious why its not shown as profit making business
Has Turnberry turned a profit? Trump spent a bomb on the hotel and course. There was the small matter of Covid as well.
Ciao
Have PM you Sean :) they certainly made a lot of money on green fees alone. Don't think Covid was a huge factor in this regard for 2022.
It is still a massive loss maker. Was privately offered up for sale last year, I can't remember the exacts but it was something like £100M less than Trump paid. Course itself is brilliant and very well thought of as is Trump Aberdeen, for the regular UK golfer Trump Aberdeen is an absolute must play unless you have political views. Comments back are ...its top 10.
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Apparently they started on site a few months ago.
I must have missed that, that and the press release. Did they get a separate planning consent for the second course or was it wrapped up in the consent for the first course ?
Niall
They had separate planning about 4 or 5 years ago. In fact, I suspect they are working on it now so the planning doesn’t lapse.
Only info I have that they are working on it is anecdotal from a member who sees it. I’m not sure they have even been informed. Very low key.
Planning got approved in 2020 (the application was submitted in 2015) - normally it is a three year period to commence construction to activate the planning permission - so they are just getting inside the three year period to avoid having to submit another planning application. The course construction can take however long they want it to be.
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Adrian
For some reason I think Trump "only" paid £35m for Turnberry. I seem to recall that number. He may have then spent quite a lot of money on the property after purchase but the numbers they quote are often nonsense. For instance, you often read of the £100m course at Balmedie when I believe the Irish construction company were paid c.£7m.
Anyway, I note he was in todays paper shown cutting a ribbon. Hard to believe he'd being doing that unless he wasn't now going to go ahead and complete the course. He'd look rather foolish otherwise.
Niall
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Full details here.
https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/ground-broken-on-new-course-at-trump-international-golf-links?fbclid=IwAR3UBrBBP3dOujT5NeUzNEeCGiP0uauqPKxSgbYNhB7CEf7lIc6Ku2BcJnk (https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/ground-broken-on-new-course-at-trump-international-golf-links?fbclid=IwAR3UBrBBP3dOujT5NeUzNEeCGiP0uauqPKxSgbYNhB7CEf7lIc6Ku2BcJnk)
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Full details here.
https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/ground-broken-on-new-course-at-trump-international-golf-links?fbclid=IwAR3UBrBBP3dOujT5NeUzNEeCGiP0uauqPKxSgbYNhB7CEf7lIc6Ku2BcJnk (https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/ground-broken-on-new-course-at-trump-international-golf-links?fbclid=IwAR3UBrBBP3dOujT5NeUzNEeCGiP0uauqPKxSgbYNhB7CEf7lIc6Ku2BcJnk)
"We are going to build a great golf course that aims to replicate the outstanding championship links we already have here, and many believe to believe to be the greatest golf course in the world," said Trump.
I've not played so have no opinion on the existing course, but other than members of the Trump Organization and Trump Family, I don't think I've ever heard it called "the greatest golf course in the world."
Can anybody shed light on this claim?
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Here are the routing plan documents which were approved in October of 2020. I attempted to do a rough overlay on a Google map.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52864552744_ca766658a3_o.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52864552599_73e2376294_o.jpg)
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Adrian
For some reason I think Trump "only" paid £35m for Turnberry. I seem to recall that number. He may have then spent quite a lot of money on the property after purchase but the numbers they quote are often nonsense. For instance, you often read of the £100m course at Balmedie when I believe the Irish construction company were paid c.£7m.
Anyway, I note he was in todays paper shown cutting a ribbon. Hard to believe he'd being doing that unless he wasn't now going to go ahead and complete the course. He'd look rather foolish otherwise.
Niall
This is the text/email I had, it does not state he had spent 200M here, the main money was obs spent on the hotel which appears to have been the non return. dec 2021c
Morning
Ok to be clear, they are seeking 100m for the whole shooting match- 2 courses, hotel, clubhouse, lodges plus the 20m devel land. I was awaiting a more detailed site plan of there whole thing, hence the delay- should have shortly…speak then.
Purchase will include hotel, lodges, two golf courses, clubhouse and development land. This would suit a trophy purchaser looking to make a statement acquisition. More positively is the resort could secure the Open once again which is a huge positive.
I genuinely believe this is a great opportunity for your hotel investor to consider.
Wait to hear from you with initial thoughts.
Thanks
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Here is the original master plan that I could find.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52864754409_e013ca41f7_o.jpg)
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Can guarantee this one will cause even more uproar than the first because it’s over dunes used by the public and families. Right next to the public car park.
At least the land the first course occupied was far quieter and removed from public leisure activities.
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Here is the original master plan that I could find.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52864754409_e013ca41f7_o.jpg)
That is very old because layout and footprint of original course is incorrect and was changed.
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Went for a walk over the southern end of the new course today. Routing plan doesn’t jive with some of the tee pads and hole corridors that I saw roughed in.
Disappointing amount of landscape manipulation and sand mining for such a natural site.
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Seems to butt-up right against the Country Park boundary and a little further north use (decimate?) one of the most amazing sand dunes I’ve seen in the UK. Walked to the top of it once. Only once though. Damn high and damn soft sand. Legs have never been the same since.
Can’t help but think that a municipal 9-hole course linked to the Country Park mightn’t have been more suitable golfing use of the land (SSSI etc accepted). Indeed, apparently once upon a time some folks used to knock a wee white ball about in this area with some sticks. Might even have been a couple of rough-raked putting surfaces in the area.
Atb
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Can anybody shed light on this claim?
Is this a troll? If so, quite a good one.
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Can anybody shed light on this claim?
Is this a troll? If so, quite a good one.
Thank you (as I bow and exit, stage right).
One of my favorite examples of Trump's hubris was when I was invited to play Trump Los Angeles. While I didn't run into him on this trip, after the round their Membership Director was all over me with her pitch and before I left, she handed me several slick marketing pieces and a shirt (much too small...I think she was trying to tell me that I could stand to drop a few pounds).
That night, after an hour or so of trying to fall asleep, I pulled out the marketing materials. On the biggest, there were several blurb quotes, such as:
"The Greatest New Golf Course Built in the Last 50 Years!!!"
"Best Course in California!!"
"Will host a US Open soon...."
I could not read who these quotes were attributed to, but my curiosity got the best of me so I went to my briefcase and got my readers, hopped back in bed and was then able to see who made such stunning statements about a so-so (my opinion) golf course.
Each quote was from "Trump Magazine".
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If they rebrand as Cabot they might be Top 50 before they open.
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If they rebrand as Cabot they might be Top 50 before they open.
Funny Bernie.
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This might be the best GCA joke I've ever seen. Well done!
If they rebrand as Cabot they might be Top 50 before they open.
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Press reports suggest Martin is the architect for the new MacLeod course.
There you have it.
Thread is now over.
;D ;D
That made me laugh. Good one, Ian.
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Can anybody shed light on this claim?
Is this a troll? If so, quite a good one.
Thank you (as I bow and exit, stage right).
One of my favorite examples of Trump's hubris was when I was invited to play Trump Los Angeles. While I didn't run into him on this trip, after the round their Membership Director was all over me with her pitch and before I left, she handed me several slick marketing pieces and a shirt (much too small...I think she was trying to tell me that I could stand to drop a few pounds).
That night, after an hour or so of trying to fall asleep, I pulled out the marketing materials. On the biggest, there were several blurb quotes, such as:
"The Greatest New Golf Course Built in the Last 50 Years!!!"
"Best Course in California!!"
"Will host a US Open soon...."
I could not read who these quotes were attributed to, but my curiosity got the best of me so I went to my briefcase and got my readers, hopped back in bed and was then able to see who made such stunning statements about a so-so (my opinion) golf course.
Each quote was from "Trump Magazine".
I too went there 10+ years ago after these claims. Left after 9 holes. Land is unsuited for golf and the garish contrived “features”, waterfalls etc. we’re too much to take. May be one of the worst courses in CA. Although The Crossings at Carlsbad probably wins that contest.
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Back to Trump’s second course, I downloaded the updated planning documents which did show a changed routing but not as much as I had suspected in the dune holes.
Current plan has holes 8-13 in the serious dunes. These are as big as on the original course. There was no sign of earthworks or marker posts to the very south (through the dune slack, near the public car park). There were - as always in this area - a lot of walkers and beach goers who are going to get a big shock when this work continues.
Some of the cuts on the dunes were incredibly severe. Much of it looked like mining of sand for the inland holes. Some of it was to widen hole corridors.
I’ll wait to see the finished product but I already know it will have taken a very different approach to one I would likely have taken over the same landscape.
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Ally,
I'm too lazy to update myself on all the details/background, but I'm wondering how, considering all the controversy surrounding the first course, is it possible to yet again route so many holes in the sand dunes? Is there no protection at all of these "unique" (debatable I know) habitats in the UK?
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Ally,
I'm too lazy to update myself on all the details/background, but I'm wondering how, considering all the controversy surrounding the first course, is it possible to yet again route so many holes in the sand dunes? Is there no protection at all of these "unique" (debatable I know) habitats in the UK?
Wasn’t the 2nd course granted permission with the first course?
Ciao
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No, it was approved in late 2020. I think if it had been approved at the same time as the first course, the planning consent would have lapsed by now.
https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/aberdeenshire-council-approves-second-course-at-trump-international-golf-links (https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/aberdeenshire-council-approves-second-course-at-trump-international-golf-links)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/vcfgHm8x/GFf8-NN8-WAAASn-K7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vcfgHm8x)
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https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/golf/6550235/eric-trump-aberdeenshire-venue-hosting-golfs-biggest-tournaments/
Eric Trump believes the second course at Trump International Golf Links will ensure the venue has “the best 36 holes in the world” and will be able to host golf’s biggest tournaments.
Trump, the executive vice president of the Trump Organisation and head of Trump Golf, was speaking on a visit to the Staysure PGA Seniors Championship which is being held on the existing championship course at the Aberdeenshire links.
The second course will open next summer and Trump believes the two courses will be “the best 36 holes in golf” and offer “endless potential”.
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Funnily enough, I was there today taking a walk on the edge of the new course. The natural dune holes look like they could be more interesting than the existing 18. But there are only six of them.
The shaping I saw on the inland holes looked a little over the top for my liking. However, I really didn’t get a close look at most of it. So I will wait and see.
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https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/eric-trump-aberdeen-new-course/ (https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/eric-trump-aberdeen-new-course/)
"The new course has, like its predecessor, been designed by the acclaimed Martin Hawtree in tandem with Christian Lundin of Sweden-based (re)GOLF and Christine Fraser, a golf course architect from Canada."
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I was on Google Earth having a look at the mid-construction aerial. With many of the tees shaped, it’s relatively easy to work out the routing. Looks like they’ve squeezed an extra hole or two in to the natural dunes.
Going to be an interesting course I think. A lot of frilly waste bunkers and water hazards on the inland holes.
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Going to be an interesting course I think. A lot of frilly waste bunkers and water hazards on the inland holes.
Ick. Interesting for some people, maybe.
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With Pics like this, how can you say no? ???
(https://d23jngptvnttd7.cloudfront.net/2024/03/24120240/Trump-2nd-course-MAIN.jpg)
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Going to be an interesting course I think. A lot of frilly waste bunkers and water hazards on the inland holes.
Ick. Interesting for some people, maybe.
With Christian Lundin at the helm, it’s already obvious the the course is going to be quite different in style to any of Hawtree’s other links work.
Does that mean that the course is going to appear seamless between the dune holes and the artificially shaped inland holes? I very seriously doubt it. In fact, with all the water and frilliness, the styles could very well be quite starkly different… which will be interesting to see… which is different to saying successful.
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With Pics like this, how can you say no? ???
(https://d23jngptvnttd7.cloudfront.net/2024/03/24120240/Trump-2nd-course-MAIN.jpg)
That’s the first hole behind yer man’s strong forearm…. Note the shaped waste bunkers in the carry area in front of the tee.
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Going to be an interesting course I think. A lot of frilly waste bunkers and water hazards on the inland holes.
Ick. Interesting for some people, maybe.
With Christian Lundin at the helm, it’s already obvious the the course is going to be quite different in style to any of Hawtree’s other links work.
Does that mean that the course is going to appear seamless between the dune holes and the artificially shaped inland holes? I very seriously doubt it. In fact, with all the water and frilliness, the styles could very well be quite starkly different… which will be interesting to see… which is different to saying successful.
Hi Ally et al,
From what I understand is that Martin Hawtree is still the lead golf course architect in a consultant role (he is in his 80s) - Christian is the hands on more like Project Architect role during the construction process working with Esie O'Mahony from GolfLink Evolve (main contractor)
It's great news for Christian and gives the opportunity to an upcoming golf course architect not well known in the States - Christian's other big project is the Crownwood Club with Henrik Stenson which looks stunning.
https://crownwood.club (https://crownwood.club/)/
https://henrikstensongolfdesign.com/portfolio/61-crownwood-club (https://henrikstensongolfdesign.com/portfolio/61-crownwood-club)
Christian is not only a talented golf course architect (I have seen him doing sketches which are great) he is a great character one of the most likeable and well known guys in EIGCA. He owns regolf with Jeff Lynch who recently worked on Jamieson Links (formerly Portmarnock Links) and works with Henrik Stenson Golf Design alongside trainee GCA Pontus Leijon (one of the best golfers I have played with was off +5!)
Cheers
Ben
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Ben,
Martin may be the named architect but the style of this course is all Christian Lundin (from what I’ve seen)….
…in the way our phones listen to us, a new feed just popped up from Christian showing the latest promo video for this course.
It most definitely will be an interesting course, far from a classic links but still with potential to be more entertaining (or at least have significant more variety) than the original 18 on site. I just hope the shaping is not too obvious and overblown in an attempt to marry it to the duneland.
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Ben,
Martin may be the named architect but the style of this course is all Christian Lundin (from what I’ve seen)….
…in the way our phones listen to us, a new feed just popped up from Christian showing the latest promo video for this course.
It most definitely will be an interesting course, far from a classic links but still with potential to be more entertaining (or at least have significant more variety) than the original 18 on site. I just hope the shaping is not too obvious and overblown in an attempt to marry it to the duneland.
Yes Trump released a 2 min movie on social media both Martin and Christian are in it. I agree that the final details are Christians and it's interesting to see holes with water on a links course probably inspired by the courses on the Falsterbo peninsula. There seems to be quite a bit of shaping work based on the latest google aerial of the course under construction.
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Balmedie, Florida ::)
https://www.australiangolfdigest.com.au/trump-golf-course-aberdeen-scotland/ (https://www.australiangolfdigest.com.au/trump-golf-course-aberdeen-scotland/)
(https://golfdigest.sports.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/golfdigest/fullset/course-photos-for-places-to-play/Trump%20International%20Golf%20Links%20Scotland-New%20Course-Hole%206-Jacob%20Sj%C3%B6man-August%2024.jpg.rend.hgtvcom.966.1208.suffix/1728931025097.jpeg)
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Well, the way I'm looking at it, it's a bit like the European where Ruddy got the consent to build a course that is sort of a sham of a traditional links, and this is similar. In due course ownership will pass on as it is doing at the European and the new owner will have the opportunity to make the course a bit more Scottish links rather than Florida.
Trump can't be that much younger than Ruddy ?
Niall
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Balmedie, Florida ::)
https://www.australiangolfdigest.com.au/trump-golf-course-aberdeen-scotland/ (https://www.australiangolfdigest.com.au/trump-golf-course-aberdeen-scotland/)
(https://golfdigest.sports.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/golfdigest/fullset/course-photos-for-places-to-play/Trump%20International%20Golf%20Links%20Scotland-New%20Course-Hole%206-Jacob%20Sj%C3%B6man-August%2024.jpg.rend.hgtvcom.966.1208.suffix/1728931025097.jpeg)
Doesn't that look more like Arizona? Whatever it is, it doesn't look like a links. There are lots of reasons I won't go there and that photo gets added to the list.
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That green in the foreground is giving off strong mid noughties Bro Hof vibes.
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Think you’re picking on one photo and being a bit harsh folks.
I give you that the clean rock edge can be seen as a misfire. But that area of the site was incredibly wet so they’ve just embraced it.
I’m actually far more interested in this course than I was before. They could have shaped the inland holes in a very “faux dune” poor way to tie it in to the real links holes (7 to 14) but they’ve embraced the vegetation and water to give an overall experience that could be a bit of fun.
Certainly more encouraged.
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Used to be a nice place to go for a walk.
Atb
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Used to be a nice place to go for a walk.
Atb
Are you saying it is now becoming a good walk spoiled?
Ally seems to be indicating it may be better than the first course, which would make the place a shoo in for best 36 holes of any site in the world. After all, the first course was awarded "Best Course in the World"!
(by a Trump magazine)
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I once played the first course up there and liked it a lot. It's confusing why they would bastardize such a wonderful, rare piece of linksland.
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Not sure how that type of green is expected to work in a heavy wind. Also, if keeping the green firm firm how can you not have real issues with run out given that there is no option to play the shot short of the green. It all looks well done, just less than appropriate given the location.
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Hi Jim,
You may be looking at the photo the wrong way. The near green (the 6th) plays as a 4 or 5 from bottom left of the photo. Pin is back right. The green in the distance (7th) is played as a par-3 from tees just out of picture to the right.
Unless - of course - you are actually talking about the green in the distance
(N.B. I am giving this info from working out the routing on an old Google Earth before any of this was grassed.)
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Ally - you are correct, I was thinking that the near green was being played form the right or bottom right as a forced carry. Still a scary shot with firm turf and any wind kicking from the left.
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Trump can't be that much younger than Ruddy ?
Trump 78, Ruddy 79