Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Sean_A on July 30, 2021, 09:48:10 AM
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It’s quite simple; Gullane exists for golf. The elder statesman of Gullane Golf Club is the #1 course, records for which reach back to 1650. In total there are three courses at Gullane, all of which, like a magnet, play over Gullane Hill and on some of the best turf in the game. The three courses are essentially divided by their overall yardage and when they were opened. Built in 1884, Gullane 1 is the oldest and longest of the three and has championship pedigree as the multiple times host of the Scottish Open and Open Qualifying plus a long list of other events. Taking a page from the book of St Andrews, the 2015 Scottish Open used 16 holes from #1 and two holes from #2.
It was at Gullane that Babe Didrikson, certainly in the conversation as one of the best women to ever play the game, won the British Ladies Championship in 1947. Her awesome display of power is legendary. It is reported that with a modest tailwind she reached the uphill 15th, a hole of 535 yards, with a drive/4 iron! Not only a top class golfer who in less than 10 years as a pro won 48 events, including 10 majors, was also a founding member of the LPGA. Babe's final major championship, the 1954 US Women's Open, was won wearing a colostomy bag shortly after what turned out to be cancer surgery. Not to mention winning three Olympic medals in athletics at the 1932 Games, playing in spring season major league ball games etc etc. In short, Babe Didrikson was a remarkable person.
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The opener is a proverbial handshake with the drive playing into a pocket of bunkers...perfect.
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The game is afoot on 2. The hole isn't overly long, but it is narrow without much in the way of forgiveness. To my eye the hole looks built. I suspect earth moving took place to make the hole playable. The green is tucked between dunes near the top of the valley.
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Back down Gullane Hill we go with the third...a short par 5.
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The short holes are compelling. #4. Although, the bunkers add nothing.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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Played with a guy yesterday who grew up there. He said they always referred to their famous neighbour to the east as Gullane 4.
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So in order;
Gullane 4 (Muirfield)
Gullane 5 (Renaissance)
Gullane 6 (Dirleton)
Gullane 7 (Fidra)
Gullane 8 (NB West links)
A question; what would you call Luffness ? The original ?
Niall
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Gullane #1 Cont
A very tough hole, the dogleg left 5th takes us up the hill for 435 yards. The green mimics the slope of the hill and can be very fast when above the hole.
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The shortish par 4 sixth finishes the hill climb.
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Rountree painting
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Lauded as one of the best 360 degree views in golfdom, the 7th runs us back down the hill. Its very easy to get caught out too far left.
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Muirfield is behind the tee.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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I am in love with Gullane #1.
Thanks for the memories, Sean!
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Isn’t the view to the Edinburg Castle and the Firth bridge spectacular! And you turn around and see number 4. And the best chipping turf .
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Yer welcome Mike.
Mike B, I agree, Gullane has supreme turf kept at a good height.
Gullane #1 Tour Cont
I get the sense that other than dealing with the hill, another purpose of the routing is to take the golfer to the Firth of Forth. The 8th strikes me as a hole on this journey....nothing flashy. I do like the nasty 9th. The green seems to will tee shots to the rear.
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The 10th is a bit like the 8th, but running in the opposite direction and a bit longer. 11-14 form a triangle of good holes. The infinity view on the 11th is one of the highlights of the course.
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The club could do with trying to remove some of the vegetation behind the green to retain the clean view.
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A contrary wind more from the east-north can make the three-shot 12th play shorter than a few of the par 4s...a trait I admire in a design.
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There is a lovely dip left of the green. Plenty of WWII debris remains on the far dunes.
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A wonderful short hole, the 13th is benched gracefully into the hillside. A pack of bunkers short of the green encourage golfers to possibly take too much club.
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Looking back to the tee.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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GULLANE #1 TOUR CONT
Another of Gullane's ball buster holes comes at 14. Like most of the three Gullane courses, nothing flashy, just a solid hit the shots hole.
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Continuing the slow climb back up the hill, the 15th plays past its name sake, the pump house.
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The back to front green is one of the more entertaining on the course.
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More to follow.
Ciao
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Gullane 1 Tour Cont
Gullane finishes with a flurry of shortish holes thus creating some doubt as to the outcome of many matches. An uphill par 3, 16 is like much of #1, good, honest golf.
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I have a lot of time for the downhill 17th. It is perhaps a more graceful way to make the final serious descent than is the case on #3 course. Everybody knows wind plays a major factor on links and on 17 it is abundantly clear that anything goes. The hole is about 390 yards, but into the wind that downhill advantage can be completely eliminated.
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There is some dead space beyond the bunkers, but not a lot to work with if the hole plays downwind.
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A fine home hole gives golfers a chance to finish on a high note.
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Handsome surroundings! One of the finest scenes in golf.
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The house was refurbished a few years back and impressive it is.
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Yes, dogs are allowed!
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It is always a treat to play any of the three Gullanes. #1 offers a kinder, gentler championship test than many other courses of its stature, but its certainly no pushover with bruising holes such as 5, 10 & 11. I was pleasantly surprised by the rough in high summer. It was very harsh in places, but generally ok. However, as stated previously, the one single aspect I enjoy the most is the turf. With three courses and that turf, it must be glorious to be a member of Gullane. 1* 2023
Other East Lothian courses
Kilspindie
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66109.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66109.0.html)
Luffness New
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66102.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66102.0.html)
Dunbar
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64305.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64305.0.html)
North Berwick
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.0.html)
Gullane 3
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67899.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67899.0.html)
Gullane 2
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71153.msg1711897.html#msg1711897 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71153.msg1711897.html#msg1711897)
Renaissance
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58937.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58937.0.html)
Longniddry
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,72306.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,72306.0.html)
Ciao
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Sean - as usual, excellent review. You nailed it concerning #17… it’s all about the wind. First of all, it’s a tricky tee shot to get correct, then the second can be anything from a gap wedge to a hybrid depending on the wind. It seems like a pushover from the teebox, but it is a vexing hole. Par is a good score here and very welcome!
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This is the best tour of any of the Gullane courses that I've seen. This looks like very thought provoking and fun links golf, within bunkering that demands good play. I need to see it.
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Thank you for the great tour. Gullane has to be a near ideal golf club. As terrific as the #1 course is, my group enjoyed #2 and #3 as much, perhaps even more! We played multiple rounds on the short, but still challenging #3 course. To have three courses play across the same topography, with each so enjoyable in different ways, is just too good to be true.
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Brian,
You are so right! I am in the process of closing out month three of my four month summer at Gullane and I can attest the courses never grow old. As you say, having the three courses available is a wonderful benefit of membership and it does feel too good to be true sometimes.
In addition to the fabulous courses, the membership is outstanding… warm, welcoming and amazingly hospitable.
Gullane GC has far exceeded my hopes and expectations.
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Thank you for the great tour. Gullane has to be a near ideal golf club. As terrific as the #1 course is, my group enjoyed #2 and #3 as much, perhaps even more! We played multiple rounds on the short, but still challenging #3 course. To have three courses play across the same topography, with each so enjoyable in different ways, is just too good to be true.
Brian
Yer welcome. #3 is my favourite of the three courses. I have a lot of time for the holes around the visitor house. It would be a lovely boozer loop.
Ciao
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Fond Memories
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I hear Mackenzie and Ebert have worked up some fairly radical plans, including turning 1 and 2 into a par 5.
Ciao
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I hear Mackenzie and Ebert have worked up some fairly radical plans, including turning 1 and 2 into a par 5.
Ciao
Just saw the plans. Overall about 9 new holes throughout the links. Biggest changes to No.2.
The changes have merit and may indeed be an “improvement” but the extent of them is hardly necessary. It’s the detailing that concerns me as much as anything.
Clubs really need to write better briefs if they want to ensure they don’t end up with wholesale change to their courses.
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Interesting. It's amazing what a bit money tempts clubs to do !
Ally
I agree to a point about the brief. But sometimes its worth letting the gca's imagination run away with them as long as you have the ability to then decide what works and doesn't work in their plan. Being too prescriptive in the brief might lead to missed opportunities.
Niall
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Interesting. It's amazing what a bit money tempts clubs to do !
Ally
I agree to a point about the brief. But sometimes its worth letting the gca's imagination run away with them as long as you have the ability to then decide what works and doesn't work in their plan. Being too prescriptive in the brief might lead to missed opportunities.
Niall
Niall, it doesn’t work for either party if you leave an open brief and then use the solution as a shopping list for some changes and not others. That normally causes confusion, arguments and an inferior outcome.
A brief would be better written if it comes with certain priorities underneath the overarching goal such as - for example - “the club would like to change / relocate as few existing greensites as possible”.
The Gullane brief is essentially four sentences.
Given what he was asked to do, Tom MacKenzie’s plans actually make a lot of sense. But that’s a long way from making them the right answer.
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I played #2 and #3 on September 8 — memorable for the golf and the Queen passing that day.
Anyway, as I played # 2, I wondered to myself if there was room for another golf course on the property. There seem to be quite a bit of room to the south of #2 and then wrapping around #3.
I don’t know if another course would be feasible or advisable. But there did seem to be quite a bit of good land to build at least 9 new holes.
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I played #2 and #3 on September 8 — memorable for the golf and the Queen passing that day.
Anyway, as I played # 2, I wondered to myself if there was room for another golf course on the property. There seem to be quite a bit of room to the south of #2 and then wrapping around #3.
I don’t know if another course would be feasible or advisable. But there did seem to be quite a bit of good land to build at least 9 new holes.
I thought at least some of the land west and south G2 is a nature reserve?
Ciao
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I played #2 and #3 on September 8 — memorable for the golf and the Queen passing that day.
Anyway, as I played # 2, I wondered to myself if there was room for another golf course on the property. There seem to be quite a bit of room to the south of #2 and then wrapping around #3.
I don’t know if another course would be feasible or advisable. But there did seem to be quite a bit of good land to build at least 9 new holes.
I thought at least some of the land west and south G2 is a nature reserve?
Ciao
The proposal uses a parcel of land next to Luffness New to create 4 new holes for Gullane 2. However the vast majority of land at the far end of Gullane 1 is an SPA and off-limits.
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Any chance we can get a better idea (or illustration) of the changes? Also, what’s the timeline.
Seems a few places in EL are getting some notable changes
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Any chance we can get a better idea (or illustration) of the changes? Also, what’s the timeline.
Seems a few places in EL are getting some notable changes
I believe there is a club vote in early December, although some revisions to the plans are expected before then. The plans are only available to members in video form, although half the (interested) Scottish golf world seem to have seen them.
I find it all a bit depressing. The club has got lots of cash at the moment and they seem to have a committee very keen to make changes that have surprised large swathes of the membership.
The brief was -
'To investigate ways to reinforce the standing of number 1 as a championship course and consolidate its global reputation, to at least maintain the quality of number 2 but ideally to improve it and investigate ways to improve number 3.'
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It's all very odd. The Scottish Open was held very successfully with just swapping out a couple of holes from number 2 and this proposal is far more dramatic. It makes the course much longer for member play with some inelegant moves. Number one now begins with a long slog up the hill which will make for some slow getaways. And from the proposal tabled so far it is impossible to say that number 2 would be improved.
One of the big themes that Tom Mackenzie talks about in a very serious tone is the importance of addressing the issue of balls on the road which very few members seem to recall ever been an issue. However the need to have players, especially children, being able to cross the road safely is totally ignored.
Unfortunately I'm not the convinced the full membership are that engaged with the issues and many think 'if we need to make changes to help our rankings then we should do them'. As I say, for me it's all rather depressing...
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David
I'm in the half of Scottish Golf who haven't seen the proposals so can only really comment on what might be driving it. Like you I am baffled by any suggestion that balls go on the road. I can't think where that happens although I don't doubt it maybe happens on occasion. I should say that while not a member at Gullane I have played no.1 a handful of times and probably played 2 and 3 nearly a hundred times between them.
Gullane used to be one of those courses that largely went under the radar as far as foreign visitors were concerned but was very popular with visiting Scottish golfers. The club were/are in the enviable position of having 3 courses that provided good links golf all year round. They made so much money from (local) visitors they were able to build a visitor clubhouse, and their pricing structure was such that it ensured that no.1 was virtually left to the members to play.
The Scottish Open has obviously changed all that and when I was through this summer I was taken aback by the change. Not so much in the changes to no.3, the new practice short game area and the upgraded visitor clubhouse, but by the feel of the place. It looked like there was a couple of coachloads from Perry Golf milling about, complete with the obligatory caddy following behind everyone. Maybe they are trying to turn Gullane into the Pinehurst of Scotland ?!
Niall
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Believe it or not, I think #3 will be better for the changes, but they are relatively minor. Although, losing the 15th is a blow.
Who knows about #2? About a third of the course will be radically altered. It all depends on the quality of the design. This would require a walk through with the plans in hand. That said, losing the 3rd is a major plus. I don't think losing 7 & 8 is a big deal either.
With an increase of 400 yards on #1 I have to believe this was a high priority. That kind of added length doesn't just happen. Like David, the proposed opener sounds like a slog to me, but I have an anti-par 5 bias as a natural position. Besides this, the setting for 1 & 18 should not be altered. This area is one of my favourites in Scotland.
I didn't realize the 17th was disliked...I like it. However, coming at the 17th green from Course 2 17th fairway sounds very interesting to me.
Ciao
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This should gets things rolling!!! ;D
The club's secretary has given me permission to share the member's video presentation of the proposed changes to the three courses. I assured him that this group would be respectful in their comments ( ;D ;D ;D ) and that we might glean some worthwhile insights from your analysis. (Fingers crossed!)
In any case... here is the link: https://vimeo.com/750433259/1269f7e691
By the way... NOTHING has been decided and there will be a LOT of discussion amongst the members before anything is etched in stone.
I personally like most of the ideas, especially the change to #15 on G3 which I consider the worst hole on the property. The combining of #1 & #2 on G1 is controversial, but not a deal breaker for me. I like a par 5 opener and this would make the trek up the hill much more interesting as #1 on G1 is an easy hole and will never be used in any kind of meaningful competition. #2 on G1 is a tough hole for most players, but the greensite has real issues with drainage and light. Moving the green to a better location farther back on the current hole would just make it too difficult for nearly everyone, so changing to a par 5 seems an all around good compromise to me. I also like the new potential location for the 18th green on G1 that this change would allow. The hollows near this new greensite mentioned in the video are fantastic and would make for a truly memorable finish to the round.
Dropping #17 from G1 is not a surprise. While I do like the view from the tee, it is really not a good hole and plays extremely difficult for the weaker golfer who cannot carry the cross bunkers.
I look forward to your comments!
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The Scottish Open has obviously changed all that and when I was through this summer I was taken aback by the change. Not so much in the changes to no.3, the new practice short game area and the upgraded visitor clubhouse, but by the feel of the place. It looked like there was a couple of coachloads from Perry Golf milling about, complete with the obligatory caddy following behind everyone. Maybe they are trying to turn Gullane into the Pinehurst of Scotland ?!
Niall - when you visited this past June the club was in the middle of trying to clear three year's worth of visitors that had backed up due to COVID restrictions. Last summer I hardly saw a visitor or a coach. This summer it was constant. Folks who had booked for 2020 and 2021 were rolled over on top of those who booked for 2022. It was an EXTREMELY busy summer at Gullane, to say the least, with players and caddies filling the courses most afternoons (not so much in the mornings).
Sorry you were "taken aback" during your two visits. Due to your travel schedule, you weren't able to experience the club in the morning when it was less crowded. I hope you come down again in 2023 and see if the club returns to a more favorable environment. I think it will. ;)
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Mike
No need to be sorry, I had a great day, and in case you were in any doubt I thought the new par 3 finish on number 3, the practice chipping area and the changes to the visitor clubhouse were very well done and an improvement.
We will see what happens with overseas visitor numbers but I tend to think the genie is out the bottle and judging by some of the comments on the video (thanks for sharing BTW) the changes seem to be aimed at giving them more of a championship challenge.
As to the actual changes, I think it's a bit of a mixed bag and there are a few distinctly Gullane-like holes that I will miss in the 15th on number 3 and the 17th on number 2 although I don't doubt the holes that will replace them will be good.
In terms of the proposed new 1st on number 1 and the proposed new 3rd on number 2, it appears to me that in both instances they have simply replaced a short slog with a longer one.
The one proposed change that definitely gets my vote is losing the uphill par 3 11th with the benched green on number 3. I'd question though why you'd need to do anything with the previous hole (10th) as you could simply play from the existing 11th tee to the 12th green.
Niall
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I don't think there are any changes proposed to #10 on G3.
The proposal is to move the tee box on the current #12 down to the green area on the current #11 to straighten out the hole a bit... not a bad idea with the camber of the hole always an issue.
I think the changes are primarily motivated by trying to eliminate the truly awful holes on the three courses... and, there are a few awful holes... replacing them with something much better. I think the plan does that, but I kind of question that it might remove too much of the quirky "charm" of playing Gullane. I don't think G1 is ever going to be thought of in the same league as the Open Rota courses, so that is a fool's dream IMHO.
I absolutely HATE #4 and #15 on G3, so that is a great move to me... and, removing the current #2 on G2 (liked by Sean) makes that possible, so I'm OK with those changes as a whole.
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What many people overlook with these proposals is that although the concept may look good / work, no-one really has any idea whether the detailing will be appropriate to the rest of the links until it is in the ground.
For all the greens that are getting replaced, will the new ones fit? You tell me. That bit is on trust or an intimate and experienced knowledge of the architect’s previous work and values.
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I don't think there are any changes proposed to #10 on G3.
Mike
I've had another look and they are definitely looking at dog-legging the 10th left so that the new green will be closer to the new 11th/old 12th tee. It's a kind of blink and you'll miss it moment on the video.
Niall
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I don't think there are any changes proposed to #10 on G3.
Mike
I've had another look and they are definitely looking at dog-legging the 10th left so that the new green will be closer to the new 11th/old 12th tee. It's a kind of blink and you'll miss it moment on the video.
Niall
In addition to 10 doglegging left to a green site sitting underneath the present 11th green, the 12th will have its dogleg softened by having its tee move down to occupy the present 11th green.
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I don't think there are any changes proposed to #10 on G3.
Mike
I've had another look and they are definitely looking at dog-legging the 10th left so that the new green will be closer to the new 11th/old 12th tee. It's a kind of blink and you'll miss it moment on the video.
Niall
In addition to 10 doglegging left to a green site sitting underneath the present 11th green, the 12th will have its dogleg softened by having its tee move down to occupy the present 11th green.
Many of the ideas are good, it's just down to execution.
Ciao
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I’ve very recently seen the M&E Goswick front 9 proposals. They’re pretty interesting! Separate thread or offline maybe though…
F.
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I’ve very recently seen the M&E Goswick front 9 proposals. They’re pretty interesting! Separate thread or offline maybe though…
F.
I'm still waiting to see the Seaton Carew proposals. M&E are leaving their fingerprints everywhere!
Ciao
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All
See the updated photo tour on page 1. Gullane never fails to deliver.
Ciao
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Wanted to report that the M&E proposal to alter the three courses at Gullane will NOT be pursued. In an email letter from the captain the members were informed:
The Committee have therefore concluded that the Club should not proceed further with the course improvement proposals developed with Mackenzie & Ebert. We will, however, continue to explore ‘in-house’ options to enhance the layout of our courses, e.g. replace the 11th hole on No.3.
The club ran into serious opposition from the members for a good portion of the proposed changes, and NatureScot (the government agency in charge of overseeing SSSI’s) put the quash on using any of the land adjacent to G2 & G3 for new holes. So, it seems the Gullane courses will remain mostly “as is” for the foreseeable future.
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Wanted to report that the M&E proposal to alter the three courses at Gullane will NOT be pursued. In an email letter from the captain the members were informed:
The Committee have therefore concluded that the Club should not proceed further with the course improvement proposals developed with Mackenzie & Ebert. We will, however, continue to explore ‘in-house’ options to enhance the layout of our courses, e.g. replace the 11th hole on No.3.
The club ran into serious opposition from the members for a good portion of the proposed changes, and NatureScot (the government agency in charge of overseeing SSSI’s) put the quash on using any of the land adjacent to G2 & G3 for new holes. So, it seems the Gullane courses will remain mostly “as is” for the foreseeable future.
Brilliant.
God save Gullane.
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Wanted to report that the M&E proposal to alter the three courses at Gullane will NOT be pursued. In an email letter from the captain the members were informed:
The Committee have therefore concluded that the Club should not proceed further with the course improvement proposals developed with Mackenzie & Ebert. We will, however, continue to explore ‘in-house’ options to enhance the layout of our courses, e.g. replace the 11th hole on No.3.
The club ran into serious opposition from the members for a good portion of the proposed changes, and NatureScot (the government agency in charge of overseeing SSSI’s) put the quash on using any of the land adjacent to G2 & G3 for new holes. So, it seems the Gullane courses will remain mostly “as is” for the foreseeable future.
Brilliant.
God save Gullane.
Congratulations Gullane.
With The West Links at NB slamming the offer from the Royal Engineers of an attempted toe in the door, is this a revival of the traditional rivalry betwen the Lothians and Fife?
Well done the Clubs for swiming agianst the tide. Other service providers are available.
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I recently played Gullane 1 again and for some reason the 1st tee and 18th green area bleeding into town struck me as one of the great spots in golf. The recent proposal called for the 1st tee to be moved up the right of the fairway. I applaud the club for retaining the age old setting of 1 tee standing shoulder to shoulder with 18 green, the town and magnificent tree. Some things are more important than chasing professional events.
Ciao
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I recently played Gullane 1 again and for some reason the 1st tee and 18th green area bleeding into town struck me as one of the great spots in golf. The recent proposal called for the 1st tee to be moved up the right of the fairway. I applaud the club for retaining the age old setting of 1 tee standing shoulder to shoulder with 18 green, the town and magnificent tree. Some things are more important than chasing professional events.
Ciao
Completely agree, Sean.
Losing / altering that area was one of the major negatives in the proposal for me.
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I recently played Gullane 1 again and for some reason the 1st tee and 18th green area bleeding into town struck me as one of the great spots in golf. The recent proposal called for the 1st tee to be moved up the right of the fairway. I applaud the club for retaining the age old setting of 1 tee standing shoulder to shoulder with 18 green, the town and magnificent tree. Some things are more important than chasing professional events.
Ciao
Completely agree, Sean.
Losing / altering that area was one of the major negatives in the proposal for me.
Ally
The proposed change didn't really hit me until I saw the area again after reading the report. I hope that 1&18 scene never changes.
Ciao
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When we were there during Walker Cup the amount of play was extraordi.nary but not frantic. Well organized and even I was impressed with how the club organized a lot of play for any place; member and visitor both.Can it be that many of these clubs are simply collecting so many visitor fees that they have that money burning a hole in the pocket syndrome and look to "course " alterations as legacy outlets for that itch.
Very hard for me to see how they can "improve" Gullane materially!!!!
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Clubs are starting to bank meaningful amounts of cash. It does seem like some projects are at least partially about "because we have the money". The new Dornoch house is a prime example. To date, the Gullane big spend has been tasteful and aimed at servicing members and visitors. I may not agree with all of it, but I understand it and can see why it makes sense. I didn't get anything like that impression for the radical M&E proposals. Unless, the real goal was to add significant yardage to #1 for the purpose of chasing big events to host. Whether or not that possible goal justifies the radical changes is another matter.
Ciao
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I said it up in Reply 31 but I’ll say it again: It’s about the detail and these beautifully presented concept glossies never show that.
Sometimes it should just boil down to “Am I going to lose any greens?” in these renovations. That’s certainly where my focus is going to be when the inevitable starts knocking at my club’s door in the coming couple of years.