Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ran Morrissett on January 27, 2020, 08:16:03 PM
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https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/morrison-wayne-a-comparison-and-contrast-of-the-donald-ross-and-william-flynn-routing-plans-for-the-country-club-of-York/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/morrison-wayne-a-comparison-and-contrast-of-the-donald-ross-and-william-flynn-routing-plans-for-the-country-club-of-york/)
Wayne Morrison's newest contribution to GolfClubAtlas represents a f-a-s-c-i-n-a-t-i-n-g comparison of William Flynn's proposed routing for Country Club of York against Donald Ross’s that was actually implemented.
The storyline is one that is not often repeated. Here are two grand masters, both renowned for their superb ability to route. They are given the identical parcel of land and each produces a routing, the documents of which have weathered the test of time. In theory, it would hardly be surprising if the two routings had multiple points in common but they have shockingly few. Indeed, they share only two (!) similar playing corridors in the same direction.
Wayne and his co-authors Messers Crosby, Disher and Green (Andrew Green is the consulting architect at CCY) show how Ross radiates holes from the flat central plateau that Flynn uses to build ... a practice field! Meanwhile, Flynn eschewed the central plateau and headed into the most rambunctious portion of the property to build holes with the most convoluted land tending to be in the middle of the holes. As Wayne notes, Flynn focuses on the northeast ridge which ' serves as a hub for several holes that traverse the severest topographical features on the property.' Flynn was also unafraid to build greens in some of the low-lying areas. Meanwhile, Ross shies away from the property's most rugged portion, sometimes sticking closer to the perimeter where the land was tamer and then layered on some pretty darn zippy greens.
After you peruse this presentation, I imagine you will agree with their conclusion that Ross's course was easier to walk and Flynn's would have been more dramatic. Which would you prefer? Happily, there is no correct answer, which helps explain why golf architecture is endlessly fascinating. Heck, the answer might even vary with your age. This case study also might prompt you one rainy day to muse about what Flynn would have done at Seminole and Ross at Shinnecock Hills, for instance. Impossible to imagine either being better but … still, this piece sets in motion some mental gymnastics.
So much of a course's quality hinges on its routing but it's a subject that is only now coming to the fore. Everyone awaits Tom Doak's long forthcoming book on what is arguably architecture's single most important - and least discussed - subject. For now, have fun and dig your teeth into this analysis (which is somewhat shorter ;D than Wayne and Tom Paul’s 2,400 page disc entitled The Nature Faker on William Flynn). It is intellectually stimulating even if, like me, you have never been to the Country Club of York.
You might think Flynn was from Mars and Ross from Venus, which simply wasn’t the case. Both shared far more in common (great routers, adept at shifting hole directions, low profile tees, move minimal dirt from tee to green, fit bunkers into landforms where possible, great green complexes, strategy) than not. Bottom line: Their courses always looked at peace with the land and they both found ways to do so here, albeit in wildly different ways.
Best,
P.S. This kind of compare and contrast is made for GolfClubAtlas - if anyone has something similar, please, please, please shoot me an email.
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8) ;D
Great stuff....thanks
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Great piece of writing and research. Thank you for sharing.
If you haven't taken the time to read and follow along with the different routings you really should. The Flynn routing is really pretty amazing. He lays out a dramatic par-3 across a stream cascading down a ravine to a green set on a knob. It's on a part of the course that Ross completely avoids and remains a small forest the current routing plays around. It's one of a number of excellent contrasts between the two plans.
Great stuff!
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Between the Flynn courses listed plus Cherry Hills, could we argue that William Flynn may have been the best at utilizing a creek for golf? Both for better (interest) and worse (flooding).
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Great piece of writing and research. Thank you for sharing.
If you haven't taken the time to read and follow along with the different routings you really should. The Flynn routing is really pretty amazing. He lays out a dramatic par-3 across a stream cascading down a ravine to a green set on a knob. It's on a part of the course that Ross completely avoids and remains a small forest the current routing plays around. It's one of a number of excellent contrasts between the two plans.
Great stuff!
Yes. As well-laid out as the maps/topos/routings were, they would've all been Greek to me if not for the clear writing & descriptions.
I know I'm bad at 'reading' such topos/routings, but I sometimes wonder if the decision-makers back then were all that much better at it than me, i.e. if they could in fact see the strengths and weaknesses of the two proposals, and imagine/compare the 'feel' of the resulting golf courses based on one routing over the other.
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https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/morrison-wayne-a-comparison-and-contrast-of-the-donald-ross-and-william-flynn-routing-plans-for-the-country-club-of-York/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/morrison-wayne-a-comparison-and-contrast-of-the-donald-ross-and-william-flynn-routing-plans-for-the-country-club-of-york/)
Wayne Morrison's newest contribution to GolfClubAtlas represents a f-a-s-c-i-n-a-t-i-n-g comparison of William Flynn's proposed routing for Country Club of York against Donald Ross’s that was actually implemented.
The storyline is one that is not often repeated. Here are two grand masters, both renowned for their superb ability to route. They are given the identical parcel of land and each produces a routing, the documents of which have weathered the test of time. In theory, it would hardly be surprising if the two routings had multiple points in common but they have shockingly few. Indeed, they share only two (!) similar playing corridors in the same direction.
Wayne and his co-authors Messers Crosby, Disher and Green (Andrew Green is the consulting architect at CCY) show how Ross radiates holes from the flat central plateau that Flynn uses to build ... a practice field! Meanwhile, Flynn eschewed the central plateau and headed into the most rambunctious portion of the property to build holes with the most convoluted land tending to be in the middle of the holes. As Wayne notes, Flynn focuses on the northeast ridge which ' serves as a hub for several holes that traverse the severest topographical features on the property.' Flynn was also unafraid to build greens in some of the low-lying areas. Meanwhile, Ross shies away from the property's most rugged portion, sometimes sticking closer to the perimeter where the land was tamer and then layered on some pretty darn zippy greens.
After you peruse this presentation, I imagine you will agree with their conclusion that Ross's course was easier to walk and Flynn's would have been more dramatic. Which would you prefer? Happily, there is no correct answer, which helps explain why golf architecture is endlessly fascinating. Heck, the answer might even vary with your age. This case study also might prompt you one rainy day to muse about what Flynn would have done at Seminole and Ross at Shinnecock Hills, for instance. Impossible to imagine either being better but … still, this piece sets in motion some mental gymnastics.
So much of a course's quality hinges on its routing but it's a subject that is only now coming to the fore. Everyone awaits Tom Doak's long forthcoming book on what is arguably architecture's single most important - and least discussed - subject. For now, have fun and dig your teeth into this analysis (which is somewhat shorter ;D than Wayne and Tom Paul’s 2,400 page disc entitled The Nature Faker on William Flynn). It is intellectually stimulating even if, like me, you have never been to the Country Club of York.
You might think Flynn was from Mars and Ross from Venus, which simply wasn’t the case. Both shared far more in common (great routers, adept at shifting hole directions, low profile tees, move minimal dirt from tee to green, fit bunkers into landforms where possible, great green complexes, strategy) than not. Bottom line: Their courses always looked at peace with the land and they both found ways to do so here, albeit in wildly different ways.
Best,
P.S. This kind of compare and contrast is made for GolfClubAtlas - if anyone has something similar, please, please, please shoot me an email.
Ran,
Very interesting to say the least. Not to go off on a tangent, but I’m wondering if Sebonack would be a modern example of the same thing. At least kind of.
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One of most insightful and illustrative (literally) pieces I have read on any subject in quite some time.
Ira
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When Wayne and I walked the course many years ago we were struck immediately by how differently two architects saw the same piece of property. If you have the opportunity to visit CCofY with any of the topo maps in hand, don't pass it up.
During the walk, I took some photos. Many trees have been removed since our visit and the views now are much more dramatic and probably closer to what Ross and Flynn saw.
This photo is the 4th green - I think. Trees behind the green have been removed, exposing the wonderful vista that was in Ross's design.
(https://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/cadcaddo/gca/york2_zpsshjnst10.jpg) (https://s99.photobucket.com/user/cadcaddo/media/gca/york2_zpsshjnst10.jpg.html)
I believe this is a view of the 18th back toward the tee. It shows the dramatic elevation changes in the eastern area of the property that was so attractive to Flynn.
(https://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/cadcaddo/gca/york1_zpswkcfly4c.jpg) (https://s99.photobucket.com/user/cadcaddo/media/gca/york1_zpswkcfly4c.jpg.html)
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Craig - the second photo is looking back down the 16th. The trees have been thinned out on the left side of the photo (right side of the fairway) and the entire green has been redone to restore it back to Ross' original drawings. Definitely proof that not all parts of his greens are accessible from all other parts using a putter. The extensive tree thinning/removal you referred to really opened up the visuals although the playing corridors were not affected that greatly.
CC of York is special and one of my favorite days out. It is a very walk-able routing with only the area from 15's tee through 17's tee being a tough hike. The land between Ross' 11th and 14th is densely forested and steep. My assumption was that it was not usable for holes and that necessitated the 14th-15th routing. Obviously not knowing what the land looked like before any build changes what one would think of as usable or not.
This was a wonderful piece that finally allowed me to see the Flynn routing. I had known of it, but had never seen.
When Wayne and I walked the course many years ago we were struck immediately by the how differently two architects saw the same piece of property. If you have the opportunity to visit CCofY with any of the topo maps in hand, don't pass it up.
During the walk, I took some photos. Many trees have been removed since our visit and the views now are much more dramatic and probably closer to what Ross and Flynn saw.
This photo is the 4th green - I think. Trees behind the green have been removed, exposing the wonderful vista that was in Ross's design.
(https://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/cadcaddo/gca/york2_zpsshjnst10.jpg) (https://s99.photobucket.com/user/cadcaddo/media/gca/york2_zpsshjnst10.jpg.html)
I believe this is a view of the 18th back toward the tee. It shows the dramatic elevation changes in the eastern area of the property that was so attractive to Flynn.
(https://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/cadcaddo/gca/york1_zpswkcfly4c.jpg) (https://s99.photobucket.com/user/cadcaddo/media/gca/york1_zpswkcfly4c.jpg.html)
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That was a wonderful read, indeed.
I'm fortunate to have played CCofY a couple of times. It is really good and fun.
Here are more photos from a June 2014 visit:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/CCofYork/index.html (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/CCofYork/index.html)
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Definitely on my shortlist for 2020.
Well done!
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This was very well done and interesting to read. Is there any information available to compare the greens the two proposed? DJR always provided detailed green drawings. Did Flynn? That could add an interesting level of comparison as well. What impact did the disparate routings have on the green sites and contours?
Thanks to all that worked on this. Very interesting.
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This was very well done and interesting to read. Is there any information available to compare the greens the two proposed? DJR always provided detailed green drawings. Did Flynn? That could add an interesting level of comparison as well. What impact did the disparate routings have on the green sites and contours?
Flynn did not. However, he provided separate hole drawings for most if not all of his projects that were actually built. The drawings often contained insets that gave detail of the green and surrounding bunkers.
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On my tablet, I cannot read the topo lines very well. Can an analysis be done of the green sites based on the maps? As Tom Doak said in his Little Red Book, “If you get the routing right, you get the drainage right, ... and you ought to get the green complexes right because you’re in a good place to build a green.”
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A great deal of time and effort and research has obviously gone into this piece, this project, so well done to all involved.
Atb
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Incredible piece of work. Very cool. Thanks! Is there any surviving evidence of why the club chose one plan over the other? Interesting that this thread about 1925 plans is tacked up next the thread about Hunter's 1926 book.
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Morrison, Crosby, Disher, and Green present a terrific discussion of Flynn vs. Ross at CC York.
This is the kind of article that stokes a fire for golf course architecture discussions, and their routing maps and topographical sketches added considerably to the narrative.
It is remarkable how different the Ross and Flynn links are designed on the same land!
I am grateful for this essay, and learned a lot.
The observation that Ross routed holes parallel to slopes and Flynn crossed slopes (and creeks) caught my attention. This is consistent with how Ross works the land in many of his designs.
It is also consistent with how links golf holes follow the land in Ross’ native Scotland.
The observation that Ross used elevated land for tees and greens is not surprising.
At Seminole, Ross earned the commission over other well known architects based on his proposed utilization of the sand ridges, which other architects wanted to eliminate.
William Flynn may have been one of the competing architects.
I was not surprised with Andrew Green's comment on the cost-effectiveness of the Ross routing.
In general, Ross presented modest operating budgets for his clients, and his team, Donald J. Ross Associates, were well known to deliver cost effective designs.
Finally, I appreciate the observation that the Ross layout might be an easier walk.
If I am not mistaken, the walk associated with the game was important to Ross.
Gentlemen, Thank you for a stimulating article.
Bill Healy
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It's definitely an interesting exercise that I enjoyed looking at. In addition to the easier terrain for holes, it also looks like the Ross green/tee walks are shorter. Hard to say very accurately from the images due to the size, but total difference could be a few hundred yards.
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A great read.
It brought to mind the Ross quote that "golf is a pleasure...it's not a penance."
Sven
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As Bernie noted, it's interesting to have this thread next to the one on Hunter's book. As I wrote on that thread, it surprised me how 'practical' The Links is -- and how it combines so well the craft/construction of golf courses with the artistic/aesthetic goals. And that relates to this thread/essay -- because rightly or wrongly, one thing I took away from reading it was that Ross' routing 'balanced' the art & craft of gca better than Flynn's did. From reading it, I thought: both routings would've produced lovely and natural looking golf courses, but the Ross version would be easier to maintain, more 'permanent', less prone to flooding and in some ways more 'elastic'.
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As Bernie noted, it's interesting to have this thread next to the one on Hunter's book. As I wrote on that thread, it surprised me how 'practical' The Links is -- and how it combines so well the craft/construction of golf courses with the artistic/aesthetic goals. And that relates to this thread/essay -- because rightly or wrongly, one thing I took away from reading it was that Ross' routing 'balanced' the art & craft of gca better than Flynn's did. From reading it, I thought: both routings would've produced lovely and natural looking golf courses, but the Ross version would be easier to maintain, more 'permanent', less prone to flooding and in some ways more 'elastic'.
What do you think of this summary:
Ross provided a design for a fine golf course that minimizes the impact of the challenging ground.
Flynn provided a design for a fine golf course that maximizes the potential of the challenging ground.
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Ross provided a design for a fine golf course that minimizes the impact of the challenging ground.
Flynn provided a design for a fine golf course that maximizes the potential of the challenging ground.
How about this.
Ross provided a design suited for the everyday club goer.
Flynn provided a design closer to the challenge found at a championship course.
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Absolutely fantastic piece.
I'm an admirer of Flynn and think Rolling Green is incredibly underrated.
It seemed to me like the Flynn routing would have been so much more memorable and fun to play until I read that his 14th hole went uphill 90 feet! The drop from tee to green at Augusta's 10th is 110 feet so that would almost be like playing Augusta's 10th in reverse. That seems ridiculous. Is this even feasible? Does any hole play that uphill? I'm fairly young and always walk but I don't think I would want to walk that.
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It seemed to me like the Flynn routing would have been so much more memorable and fun to play until I read that his 14th hole went uphill 90 feet!
I think the 14th is the par 4 that climbs up out of the ravine.
The 13th is the par 3, and while I can't discern the distance between each line on the contour map, by counting lines it looks like the 13th tee is 1 contour line below the 13th green.
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Ross provided a design for a fine golf course that minimizes the impact of the challenging ground.
Flynn provided a design for a fine golf course that maximizes the potential of the challenging ground.
How about this.
Ross provided a design suited for the everyday club goer.
Flynn provided a design closer to the challenge found at a championship course.
My original 'summary', and then David's and then Sven's, brought to mind again an aspect of gca that we don't often mention around here, i.e.
Intention.
Whether any of our summaries are 'accurate' is almost besides the point (not really, but...): more to the point, I think, is the architect's fundamental intention and priorities in designing a course, e.g.
A championship test or a member's club
Highly dramatic or easier to maintain
Minimizing the challenge of a severe site or maximizing its potential
Reading Mike C's thread, and looking at the 10 and the 8s and the 5s: obviously, lots of factors involved in the quality/rating, but I wonder if one of the more important factors in that 'final score' is what the architect aimed for/intended the course to be.
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If I might, I think Flynn was heavily influenced by men like Hugh Wilson and George Crump, both of who were no strangers to bold, audacious golf holes that bordered on Herculean.
Imagine playing the 4th at Pine Valley with hickory and facing that steep wall of sand. These guys were looking to develop champion golfers and they designed courses specifically for that purpose.
Witness the original 6th hole at Cobb's Creek (which we're hoping to restore) from an article by Joe Dey that Joe Bausch discovered a few years back. It rises 80 feet in the first 150 or so yards before swinging right, following a steep ridge on that side. Flynn was responsible for building the greens and other man-made features, was a very good player himself, was heavily influenced by the prevailing Philly architectural thinking of the time and thus was not the least bit shy in presenting stark challenges in his designs.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49474446576_51d5db6f8a_w.jpg)(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49474672262_ba2808ba68.jpg)
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For uphill steepness, I was also reminded yesterday of the 5th and 8th holes at Merion West.
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This is an excellent piece. Love the maps and the comparisons. Thank you for sharing.
Yeamans Hall is another candidate for comparison between Ross and Raynor. Both architects drew 36-hole plans for Yeamans Hall Club.
Kudos to the authors, this is a terrific piece they put together.
Bret
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Excellent stuff, well done to all involved. Unfortunately I don't know the course so it's hard to get a very real sense of the fundamental differences of the two designs but this essay certainly gives me an inkling of how different Flynn's design would have been.
Niall
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That was a fantastic read ... thanks for your work Wayne!
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This article brings back very fond memories. I had the opportunity to play CC of York in October and immediately classified it as a Hidden Gem. The greens are classic Ross without being over done (in spite of my 20" birdie putt on #4 that ended up 25' offf line and off the green). I loved holes 9 (par 4)and 12 (3)....the latter reminding me of a par 3 at Hackensack. I thought the holes sat perfectly on the land and felt like they had been there forever. Overall the course very much reminded me of Ross' Aronimink (albeit shorter version).
Unfortunately was playing it on my drive south from Boston to Pinehurst and had to run after the round so do not remember some of the land forms well enough to picture the Flynn holes...except clearly can visualize different use of Ross' #11 through the valley.
In any case, IMO this on his a must play and Wayne's efforts simply make it even more so...
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Played Country Club of York yesterday with Joe Bausch and Matt Frey. Definitely a challenging piece of terrain to route a course on so indeed a fascinating exercise described here. Also, a fun course with a number of really distinctive, noteworthy golf holes.
Here's a 1937 aerial, if Flickr still works these days.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50232006113_3cd413daee.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/2jwQamV)
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Any superintendents or architects wish to chime in, about which of the two designs would present drainage/maintenance issues? Asking for a fiend, not a friend.
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This is a bit of a "Should have been Flynn" article. How can you say that three holes (14-16 Flynn) form the centerpiece of his design? Is there such a thing as a centerpiece, over the course of 18 holes? Would someone not completely enamored of a local, Philly boy, write that about St. Andrews OC? About NGLA? About any other top course?
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Ron,
Whether there is some advocacy shown here isn't really important to finding interest in the routing differences between two experts faced with 160 feet of elevation change and 80% of it in 20% of the property.
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Ron,
Did you really ask if there is a centerpiece section to an 18 hole course?
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Played Country Club of York yesterday with Joe Bausch and Matt Frey. Definitely a challenging piece of terrain to route a course on so indeed a fascinating exercise described here. Also, a fun course with a number of really distinctive, noteworthy golf holes.
Here's a 1937 aerial, if Flickr still works these days.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50232006113_3cd413daee.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/2jwQamV)
How did you like the long downhill par five? What line did you choose? Lay up or go for it in two? gives you some great options. Just rated it, nice place.
ed
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Ron,
Did you really ask if there is a centerpiece section to an 18 hole course?
No, I declared quite vehemently that there should never be a centerpiece section to an 18-hole course. It is akin to declaring a spotlight or showcase hole, at the expense of the remainder of the holes or course.
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Played Country Club of York yesterday with Joe Bausch and Matt Frey. Definitely a challenging piece of terrain to route a course on so indeed a fascinating exercise described here. Also, a fun course with a number of really distinctive, noteworthy golf holes.
Here's a 1937 aerial, if Flickr still works these days.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50232006113_3cd413daee.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/2jwQamV)
How did you like the long downhill par five? What line did you choose? Lay up or go for it in two? gives you some great options. Just rated it, nice place.
ed
Hi Ed,
That long downhill par five (#14) is definitely the wildest hole I've ever seen attributed to Donald Ross. It probably falls about 100 twisting feet from tee to green and as a left handed player with a predominant draw I found the quickly turning left dogleg very awkward from the tee. I tried to hit a fade but double crossed it and although Matt F. found my ball in the woods I struggled from there. (Mean Joe B. stated that my ball was probably going to be found at CC of Harrisburg after I hit my tee shot)
On the other hand, Matt laced one with a slight right-handed draw down the left center and was left with only a six iron to the green far below, so I can't say it's an unfair hole.
To get back to the topic at hand, though, it seems to me that both Ross and Flynn made compromises with their respective routings due to the fact that 80% of the 160 feet of elevation change happens on 20% of the property. Ross spent most of his routing up in and around the highest plateau, such that he created a more walkable routing for the most part, then swung way down along the eastern border for holes 13, 14, 15 before coming back uphill towards the clubhouse. One might argue that those are the three most awkward holes on the course. Flynn's routing seems less concerned with walk ability and challenged some of the major slopes directly, without going as far east (and down into the chasm) as Ross. In a perfect world, it would be fun to play both and contrast and compare but in the case of both architects I find it difficult to imagine either saw the property as ideal for building 18 holes, given the topography.
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I played CC of York yesterday and read about Flynn's design when I got home. Great stuff! As Ran noted, it would have significantly ratcheted up the difficulty of walking. Do not for one minute think the Ross routing is an easy walk, despite The Walking Golfer's "Easy to Walk" rating (https://thewalkinggolfer.com/walkability_ratings_pa.html). Even some of the downhill walks - such as those from tee to green/fairway on #s 6, 11 and 14 - could leave your quads wobbly by the end of the round on a hot summer day. Us four dedicated walkers were somewhat relieved when told that unaccompanied guests must take carts. Does anyone know whether the club had caddies at one time?
My view as a first-timer is that #14 is over the top, although that might change with additional plays and/or a mid-iron to the green for my 2nd shot.
All of that aside, the golf is excellent, the conditioning top notch and the greens very challenging. We sat in the lounge afterwards and watched several groups have multiple three-putts on #18, their first putts either getting only halfway to the hole or trickling 10+ feet past and, in some case, practically off the green.