Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Chris DeToro on September 08, 2016, 01:05:58 PM
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I've always found the 2nd at Kingsley to be one of the most frustrating holes in golf. A complete card wrecker right out of the gates. The 2 or 20 par 3 at Engineers plays a similar card wrecking role just later in the round.
What is the strategic intent of such dangerous par 3 holes that leave little margin for error where a missed green easily leads to 5 or worse?
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I've always found the 2nd at Kingsley to be one of the most frustrating holes in golf. A complete card wrecker right out of the gates. The 2 or 20 par 3 at Engineers plays a similar card wrecking role just later in the round.
What is the strategic intent of such dangerous par 3 holes that leave little margin for error where a missed green easily leads to 5 or worse?
I think it is the allure of a frighteningly short yet frightening hole. Not much better than a sub 150 yarder that one can make 5 or 6 in the blink of an eye.
Strategy wise it's a test of equal parts skill and nerve with a short iron. The 18 handicapper can make a 2 in the same group a scratch makes 5... good stuff.
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Chris,
I have heard it stated that high handicappers can't fully appreciate the strategy because they aren't good enough to make the decisions that matter. Most time, they are happy to aim at the centre of the green, which gives the greatest margin for a push/pull.
I don't agree with this point of view, but in the case of the dangerous par-3 (like Greg, I'll assume its a short shot), the high handicapper (like the scratch player) has the opportunity to look at the pin location and make a decision whether to go for it and risk disaster, or play safe, and as long as he doesn't short side himself, could still salvage a bogey (if not a par!!). Because even the high handicapper is likely to have a short iron into the green, there is some degree of confidence and decision to be made.
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Chris,
In terms of the examination of the golfer's skills, with the exam structured by the architect, I think those holes are pass/fail holes.
Most of those holes were built in the era of match play, hence there was no over riding or heavily weighted burden that followed the golfer after the hole was played.
But, with medal play, failure on those holes follows you for the rest of the round....... and then some.
# 14 at PV has ruined more than a few rounds for me, mostly because I wouldn't use the drop area and "Tin Cupped" it.
Analyzed in a "Match Play" context the hole is no different than any of the other 17, but, analyzed in a "Medal Play" context, they can indeed be round ruiners.
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Patrick:
I like your assessment of these kind of holes re. match play vs. stroke play. Lawsonia's famed boxcar par 3 7th fits in this category -- a volcano-like green with steep falloffs all around, but the green is larger than meets the eye on the tee, and the shot (161 yds from the tips, 146 from the whites) isn't onerous.
Miss the green, and a bogey is a good score, with 5 distinctly possible. But hit the green, and bogey will be your worst score. It's a great match-play hole, because if you're hitting first, and hit the green, the pressure ramps up on your opponent to follow suit.
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The 13th at Cape Kidnappers, one wrong step and it is all over. Very Dangerous!
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#2 at Royal Dornoch is a classic par-3 "card wrecker." In fact, if wrecked my card just this morning. ;)
The two deep fronting bunkers and the severe slopes off both sides of the green are to be avoided at all costs. The smart way to play it is to hit a 130-yard shot 15-20 yards short of the green, then chip on and putt out for a routine bogey 4.
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Chris,
In terms of the examination of the golfer's skills, with the exam structured by the architect, I think those holes are pass/fail holes.
Most of those holes were built in the era of match play, hence there was no over riding or heavily weighted burden that followed the golfer after the hole was played.
But, with medal play, failure on those holes follows you for the rest of the round....... and then some.
# 14 at PV has ruined more than a few rounds for me, mostly because I wouldn't use the drop area and "Tin Cupped" it.
Analyzed in a "Match Play" context the hole is no different than any of the other 17, but, analyzed in a "Medal Play" context, they can indeed be round ruiners.
Great point about Match Play, I can think of Par 3's at Ballybunion, RCD, and Portrush that are round ruiners....
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The 13th at Cape Kidnappers, one wrong step and it is all over. Very Dangerous!
The version of the hole we considered building, with the green hanging down over the edge of the cliffs, would have been a true "Death or Glory" hole. [That was the name of a hole in the UK at the turn of the last century, illustrated in Darwin's book -- I believe it was at Romford.]
The hole we actually built is a tough little bugger, but if you fall off the left side of the green you're just going to break some bones, not go over the edge of the cliffs to the beach below.
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Chris,
I have heard it stated that high handicappers can't fully appreciate the strategy because they aren't good enough to make the decisions that matter. Most time, they are happy to aim at the centre of the green, which gives the greatest margin for a push/pull.
I don't agree with this point of view, but in the case of the dangerous par-3 (like Greg, I'll assume its a short shot), the high handicapper (like the scratch player) has the opportunity to look at the pin location and make a decision whether to go for it and risk disaster, or play safe, and as long as he doesn't short side himself, could still salvage a bogey (if not a par!!). Because even the high handicapper is likely to have a short iron into the green, there is some degree of confidence and decision to be made.
I would totally disagree with this as well. A high handicapper should have more appreciation of the strategic options. A low handicapper is generally deciding to go at the hole vs. the middle of the green. A high handicapper should be considering playing short of the green, or going left or right of the green, vs. playing at the green. Now, perhaps the high handicapper has a higher handicap in part because he's failing to weigh the consequences of a missed shot vs. his ability to play the shot (I'm certainly guilty of this). But he should be much more in tune with the implications of a bad shot, in theory. I don't mind an occasional pass/fail par 3, but high handicappers know they're probably not going to pass even though it's fun to try.
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#2 at Royal Dornoch is a classic par-3 "card wrecker." In fact, if wrecked my card just this morning. ;)
The two deep fronting bunkers and the severe slopes off both sides of the green are to be avoided t all costs. The smart way to play it is to hit a 130-yard shot 15-20 yards short of the green, then chip on and putt out for a routine bogey 4.
Only because the stupid gorse should be cut well back ::) However, I did do exactly as you suggest...only my 130 yard shot was a 7 wood!
Ciao
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"Only because the stupid gorse should be cut well back"
Sean -
In my close to 400 rounds at Dornoch I have very rarely seen the gorse right of the green come into play. Much, if not most, of the gorse well left of the green has been removed. The gorse is the least of the problems on that hole.
DT
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Maybe I had bad luck. Twice in six games...unplayable lie in the gorse from what was far from a poor shot...landed within 3 yards of the green. I have also seen lost balls in the gorse. By far the biggest hazard I see when on the tee is the gorse. All else is managable.
Ciao
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The 13th at Cape Kidnappers, one wrong step and it is all over. Very Dangerous!
The version of the hole we considered building, with the green hanging down over the edge of the cliffs, would have been a true "Death or Glory" hole. [That was the name of a hole in the UK at the turn of the last century, illustrated in Darwin's book -- I believe it was at Romford.]
The hole we actually built is a tough little bugger, but if you fall off the left side of the green you're just going to break some bones, not go over the edge of the cliffs to the beach below.
....like one could off that cliffside green at the Sheep Ranch! Scary...
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The one short par-3 that has vexed me - more than any other - is #13 at Spanish Bay. Even #11 at Shinnecock has a solution to make bogey. Just hit it long left and putt up the slope.
#13 at Spanish Bay - particularly in the usual hurting crosswind - leaves no place to hide. You either hit the left front or make a 10. Long left is bunker, leaving a downhill fluff to a pit of perdition, short right is either in the other bunker or down tot he bottom of a ravine.
A back right pin is an impossible target in the wind - but if you go at it and miss one inch right, down you go.
The amount of times I've reached #13 with a smokin' round going, only to walk off with a rerouted rectum exceeds my fingers. And then the course really stiffens on the home stretch.
There is a reason, even when I could actually play this game a bit - that 76 is still my best.
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The gorse is the least of the problems on that hole.
If gorse exists on a hole, it is never the least of its problems.
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"If gorse exists on a hole, it is never the least of its problems."
Tom D. & Sean A. -
No doubt gorse presents one of the most severe, penal obstacles to be found on a golf course. That being said, I can only comment on the playing characteristics of #2 at Royal Dornoch as a "card wrecker" based on the 1,000 or more times I have played or seen that hole played.
There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of strokes that are lost on that hole come from balls played either from the 2 bunkers fronting the green or from the bottom of the slopes on both sides of the green. I have seen very few shots hit into the gorse there.
When I stand on the #2 tee, the gorse is at the bottom of the list of things I worry about.
DT
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Such a card wrecker is the innocuous looking 6th at Roaring Gap. At 145 yards this volcano green rejects balls 360 degrees likely down the 20 foot steep embankment which asks you to make very delicate blind shot hoping not to see the ball rolling back to your feet. That the greens are often rolling in the 12-13 range surely adds to the pucker factor on the tee shot.
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I've always found the 2nd at Kingsley to be one of the most frustrating holes in golf. A complete card wrecker right out of the gates. The 2 or 20 par 3 at Engineers plays a similar card wrecking role just later in the round.
What is the strategic intent of such dangerous par 3 holes that leave little margin for error where a missed green easily leads to 5 or worse?
Chris,
Great call on Kingsley 2nd, by far the best 3 on the course imo and prob one of my favs of all. The fact you think about the hole prior to it makes it great. The beauty is there is no water hazards needed to make it challenging. Engineers and all things Emmet is high on my list...
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11 at Tumble Creek.
It is just 150 yards from the (White) 6000 yard tees that about 95% of men play from, and 170 from the (Gold/Black) 6600 yard tees that the >5% who are scratch and not faint of heart play, so not a long at all; however, it has a small perched green, the prevailing and almost daily gusty wind is in your face, seven deep bunkers surround a lot of the green and approach, a slice right of the bunkers is an unplayable ball down the mountain-side. Countless rounds have been and will be wrecked by a hole that is birdie-able with no wind.
I remember seeing two members playing in a match. The first hit, ball was cutting just a bit, ballooned and rode an extra 15-20ish yards right on the 20 mph breeze down the mountain-side. The second knew he could now take the safe route. Took what looked like a 5 or 6 iron and slapped it over the top shot bunker and into the approach. He then pitched on, 2-putted, and won the hole. Not the first nor last time someone will intentionally lay-up on that hole to just take their bogey and run.
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All really great examples. I get the focus on match play which makes perfect sense though, given that our game is more focused on individual stroke play these days, it would seem a hole with danger such that one poor swing makes it impossible to recover from over the course of a round would be too much.
What's the ideal distance/type of club or shot for a pass/fail type hole? What is the max you would push the player?
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17 at Old Elm. Very very precise 150 yd iron shot required here. Long or right is an automatic bogey or worse.
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7th at Barnbougle Dunes.
Treacherous.
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Ninth at the New Course, down right nasty hole.
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"If gorse exists on a hole, it is never the least of its problems."
Tom D. & Sean A. -
No doubt gorse presents one of the most severe, penal obstacles to be found on a golf course. That being said, I can only comment on the playing characteristics of #2 at Royal Dornoch as a "card wrecker" based on the 1,000 or more times I have played or seen that hole played.
There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of strokes that are lost on that hole come from balls played either from the 2 bunkers fronting the green or from the bottom of the slopes on both sides of the green. I have seen very few shots hit into the gorse there.
When I stand on the #2 tee, the gorse is at the bottom of the things I worry about.
DT
This was the first hole that came to my mind in the "Dangerous Par 3" category. In my one and only go at Royal Dornoch #2, I took an 8 without hitting into the gorse or the bunkers. The slopes were my downfall, and after watching my adventures, my playing partner was quite happy with his 3-putt bogey.
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The "Calamity Corner 14th"(210 yards uphill) at Royal Portush was dangerous for me. It is easy to bail out to the left of the putting green to miss the lurking abyss to the right. First try, I challenged the danger and lost . 2nd time hit a running 3 iron safely to the left and saved par.....maybe best not test the abyss? Loblolly Pines in hobe sound Fla has their version with the uphill 16th. It may be even more dangerous, as the "safe"left bail out puts you in the rough 30 feet below the green.
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5th Royal Worlington, don't go left, right, long or too short
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Let's not forget the 9th at Kingsley as well. I once saw a stubborn 7 hdcp walk off with a 13. Any other courses with 2 short (ish) par 3s on one 9 that are both potential card-wreckers? I disagree that the potential for medal play disaster is necessarily in-and-of-itself a bad thing.
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"Any other courses with 2 short (ish) par 3s on one 9 that are both potential card-wreckers?"
Jud T. -
You could certainly add #6 at Royal Dornoch to #2 as "card-wreckers." #6 is another narrow green with a very steep drop-off on one side and 3 pot bunkers up against the other side of the green. A big number is very easy to come by there as well.
DT
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Any other courses with 2 short (ish) par 3s on one 9 that are both potential card-wreckers? I disagree that the potential for medal play disaster is necessarily in-and-of-itself a bad thing.
As TOC is often the best answer for golf questions,so too is Painswick where par 3s are concerned. I don't know of a course with a better set! The 5th is about the most monster hole imagineable for a 114 yarder....seemingly as high as it is long. The 7th is a bit longer at 150ish yards, but anything not in line with the green is in trouble.
Ciao