Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Duncan Cheslett on December 16, 2015, 12:51:05 AM
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National Club Golfer has just brought out their rankings of "affordable" GB courses charging less than £100.
In fact, it is more than that. Courses are ranked according to a formula which takes into account inherent quality AND the cost of a green fee. On this basis I don't quite understand the reason for the £100 threshold...
Nonetheless, it makes for interesting reading; if only for the identity of one of the panellists!
http://digital.nationalclubgolfer.com/launch.aspx?pbid=d6c7c9df-8c1d-4826-9ddb-9acdbdeace27&error=1&debug=d6c7c9df-8c1d-4826-9ddb-9acdbdeace27
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I actually had been planning to do a similar exercise over the Xmas break. The big issue for me was how do you give a mark for each of the course quality and the course value. This just adds up the rank and the green fee which I thought about but seemed the wrong way to me - is the difference in 30 places in the rankings really the same as £30 difference in green fee.
What I'd planned to do was take the top 100-150 courses from top100golf.co.uk and then see what the Confidential guide had given each of these as a mark (removing any where there weren't 2 scores). Say the top score was 10 and the bottom 7, I'd then use these as the bottom and top marks for the green fee. I'll probably still do it and probably get roughly the same results - I have previously done a course tour of Silloth with the title "The best value course in the world?"
I also think there needs to be the odd adjustment for obvious issues - I'm not sure how Askernish can be described as a value course when it costs so much to get there.
Also, I know Sean isn't but were a couple of the panellists members of Ladybank - 19th best course??? I have never, ever, heard of it talked in those terms. I haven't played it but top100 has it as 8th best in Fife and 46th in Scotland which would put it around 150-200 in GB&I. Just checked and it isn't in Sean's top 100 GB&I list. Would be very interested to know which courses would have been up or down on his own personal list - I imagine he talked Kington, Huntercombe and Cleeve Hill up the list.
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Ed
Hmmm, just saw this list.
I didn't pay any attention to the formula. I figured its a formula and as with any golf formula it will be quite subjective. There will always be large discrepancies in comparing the rankings of any four people. All I did was provide a ranking of courses under £100 as best I could.
Yes, I did talk up Kington and Cleeve Hill...I am not sure the other panellists have seen or perhaps even heard of these two. Although, I am quite surprised to see Kington rated so high...Cleeve Hill as well for that matter. To a large degree, this is the point of the ranking...to showcase fine courses which are often overlooked by the media. With this in mind, a few courses stand out for me...Thetford, Spey Valley, Irvine and Ipswich.
I do disagree concerning what it costs to travel to a course as a criteria. That sort of approach opens a huge can of worms which has no solution.
Ciao
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Interesting thanks Duncan.
I believe the 'average' golfer considers the green fee most closely and so they have come up with a very simple and effective equation.
If this could be a spread sheet one could write our own formula. Personally I place less importance on the green fee but agree that a £45 vs a £95 difference should be considered in this kind of rating. I would reduce the importance by dividing the green fee by 1/3rd. To use the Doak scale I would then have to put 1 over the new value figure and multiply.
However the real value of his kind of article is to remind the Non GCA majority, that there are great courses out there and they needn't cost more than a trip to a Premiership game.
If
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Spangles
Personally I place less importance on the green fee but agree that a £45 vs a £95 difference should be considered in this kind of rating. I would reduce the importance by dividing the green fee by 1/3rd.
That's where the rubber hits the road. I don't really have a formula in mind for value golf other than to say the green fee is about 10-15% of my overall view of a course. Once a fee starts to move above £125 I begin to lose interest unless the course is very special.
Ciao
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Ed
Hmmm, just saw this list.
I didn't pay any attention to the formula. I figured its a formula and as with any golf formula it will be quite subjective. There will always be large discrepancies in comparing the rankings of any four people. All I did was provide a ranking of courses under £100 as best I could.
Yes, I did talk up Kington and Cleeve Hill...I am not sure the other panellists have seen or perhaps even heard of these two. Although, I am quite surprised to see Kington rated so high...Cleeve Hill as well for that matter. To a large degree, this is the point of the ranking...to showcase fine courses which are often overlooked by the media. With this in mind, a few courses stand out for me...Thetford, Spey Valley, Irvine and Ipswich.
I do disagree concerning what it costs to travel to a course as a criteria. That sort of approach opens a huge can of worms which has no solution.
Ciao
I agree re travel except in obvious outliers. The only 2 outliers that spring to mind are Askernish and Machrie. Even Machrihanish is only 3 hours from Glasgow so it is not that remote. Devon and Cornwall have almost 2 million people. Askernish and Machrie however have no real population to speak of and you have to take cost of travel into account. Probably best though if you just do the list and people can factor this in themselves.
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I looked at the list and thought wow this is an unusual list, Sean will be pleased to see his favourites finally in a ranking.
I think an UNDER £50 list is actually more affordable. I think most people see £100 as too much and only for very special times. A day at Sunningdale seems fair value.
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I agree Adrian.
£100 is WAY more than the average golfer would ever pay for a round of golf, other than as a once in a lifetime visit to a really top course.
£50 is certainly nearer to the average golfer's idea of "affordable".
Having said that, given the high weighting given to cost jn the rankings, I don't see why a threshold is needed at all. The likes of Sunningdale and Birkdale would automatically be demoted by the formula.
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It's certainly nice finally to see Reddish Vale on a top 100 list (other than Sean's).
We wondered what Ed Battye of Golf Empire was doing booking on our system for a solo round at 7am one morning in August!
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It's sad that Silloth and Southerness, separated by eight miles, requires a 1 hour 45 minute drive.
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I agree Adrian.
£100 is WAY more than the average golfer would ever pay for a round of golf, other than as a once in a lifetime visit to a really top course.
£50 is certainly nearer to the average golfer's idea of "affordable".
Having said that, given the high weighting given to cost jn the rankings, I don't see why a threshold is needed at all. The likes of Sunningdale and Birkdale would automatically be demoted by the formula.
I agree, £50 would be a better cut off, but it would also require a much better knowledge of the hinterland courses.
I think seeing Sunny Old ranked 99 would look very odd :D...and go against the grain of highlighting lesser courses.
Ciao
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As ever some good grist to the mill for getting a discussion started. About a million years ago Golf World used to do a top 1,000 courses in UK which rather than try and rate 1,000 courses from 1 to 1,000 banded courses from 1* up to 5*. The top 100 courses were then ranked as were the next 100 courses and the whole lot brought out in book format.
They also had a value for money list and surprise surprise, Silloth topped that list also. The book is sitting on my bookshelf at home and I think I might have a peek tonight to see what else was on the list. I'll be very surprised however if Ladybank gets a mention. For me that is the one course that really jumps out. It's been many years since I played it but I recall a course overgrown with Christmas trees flanking what seemed to be each and every fairway. No doubt there was a very good course somewhere in there but frankly even if price was no object I would rather play any number of the lower ranked courses with cheaper greens fees.
Also Gullane 2 at 49 and Gullane 1 at 46 while Gullane 3 is much further down the list. Seems to me they got that one a**e over t*t. And in the name of all that is holy how can they have a list of the best affordable courses and not include FORFAR !!!!!
Niall
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Putting Ladybank in there between Silloth and St. Enodoc and Machrihanish and Pennard is pretty strange.
I see, however, that they accomplished their main goal with the list ... there must be thirty advertisements from clubs that made the new top 100.
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I played Ladybank in the Summer. Nice course but I think perhaps the ranking for that one is more price than quality - I think I paid £25 in early September online.
Surprised Brora isn't higher, but a good list. The magazine is delivered free to most Clubhouses so perhaps those featured may not be such good value in 18 months time as Committees after being pleased to feature then put the prices up.
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Putting Ladybank in there between Silloth and St. Enodoc and Machrihanish and Pennard is pretty strange.
I see, however, that they accomplished their main goal with the list ... there must be thirty advertisements from clubs that made the new top 100.
In fairness, they normally ring up after you have made the list. It actually becomes a very good advert if you have made the list, hence so many.
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In fairness, they normally ring up after you have made the list. It actually becomes a very good advert if you have made the list, hence so many.
I didn't mean to suggest otherwise ... just that producing such a list generates a lot of new ads.
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Our secretary/manager came under extreme pressure to place an advert when we were first told of our inclusion. Such pressure indeed, that we began to wonder whether our place on the list was dependant on an advertisement being placed!
Happliy that was not the case.
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Thank you, Duncan.
I had never seen this magazine before, but came away impressed by its layout and the articles/interviews and with this list - a compact and nicely balanced blend of numbers and commentary, and for an outsider like me a handy (as I think of it, the handiest I've come across) snapshot of quality golf in GB.
Sean - I'm glad you were a part of the panel. If you get a chance, please pass on my compliments to the publishers. I read through quite a lot of this edition, and it was a pleasure in every way.
Peter
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No real dogs on this listing :)
The price point is quite high though, too high I suggest.
I image we can all suggest a few other courses that could/should be included and there is a notable absence of 9-holers, of which there are several around the UK of golfing merit and more appropriate price.
Atb
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I also think a good percentage of the clubs use the mag for ads regardless of the content.
I did help to add several courses to the process and several were selected. I am, however, disappointed Leckford, Cumberwell Park Orange, Yelverton, Church Stretton and Shiskine didn't make the cut. You can't win em' all :D
I enjoyed the piece on Maurice Bembridge. One of those names you hear, but from a time before there was a true Euro Tour.
Ciao
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Read the review on Silloth - great picture by the way. Had to laugh when I read "If forced to find fault, the short par 3 9th is too fiddly and the back to back par 5s are not the strongest holes on the course". He needs to read Ran's write up in Course by Country as the 9th and 13th are singled out for high praise.
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Read the review on Silloth - great picture by the way. Had to laugh when I read "If forced to find fault, the short par 3 9th is too fiddly.."
"Too fiddly"? 9 Silloth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgiqXeYMEus) is one EPIC golf hole!!
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I am hoping something like this starts in the US. Tragic that the magazines stopped the Affordable Lists in the US.
Would a course like Dormie make it in the off season? ... and then with the re-play rate?
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C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! ;D
Ed
No need to read Ran's review, there are several of us on here who are former members and long time fans of Silloth who have been lauding its virtues on here for a number of years. The 13th is simply the best par 5 I've ever played while the 14th is perhaps one of the most fun.
As for the description of the 9th, deary deary me. I recall taking a pal to play Silloth for the first time, my friend being a member of Troon for 40 odd years. Without any pre-warning from me, he stepped on to the 9th tee, looked at the green and simply said "Postage Stamp". Any hole based on a classic like that has to have something going for it. As an aside, my friend who is still off low/mid single figures hit a 3 iron flush to the back of the green.
Niall
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C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! ;D
Ed
No need to read Ran's review, there are several of us on here who are former members and long time fans of Silloth who have been lauding its virtues on here for a number of years. The 13th is simply the best par 5 I've ever played while the 14th is perhaps one of the most fun.
As for the description of the 9th, deary deary me. I recall taking a pal to play Silloth for the first time, my friend being a member of Troon for 40 odd years. Without any pre-warning from me, he stepped on to the 9th tee, looked at the green and simply said "Postage Stamp". Any hole based on a classic like that has to have something going for it. As an aside, my friend who is still off low/mid single figures hit a 3 iron flush to the back of the green.
Niall
Niall,
You don't need to convince me:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24349.msg449657.html#msg449657
Ed
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Delighted to see Golspie at #74 on the list, one spot ahead of Garland's Bude & North Cornwall. ;)
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C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! ;D
Not me :D
Its pretty obvious Silloth wasn't anywhere near my #1 choice...that was always going to be between North Berwick and St Enodoc.
The great thing about a list like this, is over the course of 5 years, the likes of North Berwick, Ganton, Woking, Little Aston etc will slowly (or quickly) drop out....thereby leaving space for other courses which deserve some praise.
Southerndown being rated so low is a surprise...I think it would make my top 25.
Not that I think the course is any good (if ever there was a dumb blonde), but I am surprised there is no Nefyn on the list.
I would have thought Westward Ho! would have had a chance for top 10...not even close.
Broadstone near the end of the pile is pretty shocking as well.
I would have thought Seacroft and Seascale would be very close in the list. Seacroft is probably more steady, but Seascale owns the bulk of the best holes.
David - I too was happy to see Golspie and Bude make the list...same for Gullane 3 (this was a big surprise).
All in all, there are a lot of very cool courses mentioned.
Ciao
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I did think it was ironic that the first page after the end of the list of courses was a massive picture of Nefyn - a course that didn't make it on to the list.
We can nitpick. I only had a couple - Ladybank (which I haven't played so what do I know), and Broadstone which was ranked as the 69th best course by quality, way lower than Ferndown which is just plain wrong. Also no Mullion, but then not many people have played it.
A very interesting exercise though.
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C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! ;D
Not me :D
Its pretty obvious Silloth wasn't anywhere near my #1 choice...that was always going to be between North Berwick and St Enodoc.
The great thing about a list like this, is over the course of 5 years, the likes of North Berwick, Ganton, Woking, Little Aston etc will slowly (or quickly) drop out....thereby leaving space for other courses which deserve some praise.
Southerndown being rated so low is a surprise...I think it would make my top 25.
Not that I think the course is any good (if ever there was a dumb blonde), but I am surprised there is no Nefyn on the list.
I would have thought Westward Ho! would have had a chance for top 10...not even close.
Broadstone near the end of the pile is pretty shocking as well.
I would have thought Seacroft and Seascale would be very close in the list. Seacroft is probably more steady, but Seascale owns the bulk of the best holes.
David - I too was happy to see Golspie and Bude make the list...same for Gullane 3 (this was a big surprise).
All in all, there are a lot of very cool courses mentioned.
Ciao
Sean,
The article mentions the panel meeting at Formby to iron out the final rankings. Do I take it that you weren't part of this beano?
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I've played 35-40 of these courses, and all of them (with the possible exception of Gullane #3) are Doak 5-7s/Richelin 1* courses that are a much of a muchness ("Rating" wise). The only thing that separates them in the methodology is the green fee and the poshness. Doh!
I propose that my favo(u)rite value for money course is the infamous "Scarred Nine" which wipes all of those Doak 8 wannabies into the cludgie. At £10/9x2 holes, and with at least 6 of those holes hidden gems I would play this course 24/7 compared to even Silloth, one of my faves, for various reasons which are not hard to understand, if you really think what is important to you, as a golfer and an architecture afficionado.
Ricardo
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C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! ;D
Not me :D
Its pretty obvious Silloth wasn't anywhere near my #1 choice...that was always going to be between North Berwick and St Enodoc.
The great thing about a list like this, is over the course of 5 years, the likes of North Berwick, Ganton, Woking, Little Aston etc will slowly (or quickly) drop out....thereby leaving space for other courses which deserve some praise.
Southerndown being rated so low is a surprise...I think it would make my top 25.
Not that I think the course is any good (if ever there was a dumb blonde), but I am surprised there is no Nefyn on the list.
I would have thought Westward Ho! would have had a chance for top 10...not even close.
Broadstone near the end of the pile is pretty shocking as well.
I would have thought Seacroft and Seascale would be very close in the list. Seacroft is probably more steady, but Seascale owns the bulk of the best holes.
David - I too was happy to see Golspie and Bude make the list...same for Gullane 3 (this was a big surprise).
All in all, there are a lot of very cool courses mentioned.
Ciao
Sean,
The article mentions the panel meeting at Formby to iron out the final rankings. Do I take it that you weren't part of this beano?
Duncan
That is correct, I missed the Formby pow wow so didn't get the opportunity to meet the other panellists or better discover their particular tastes.
I played about 70 of the final list and agree with Rihc that the bulk of the quality level is Doak 5/6....so a very high standard. Also like Rihc, I think the Sacred 9 one of the very best in this group. Its in my top 10 favourites regardless of price.
Ciao
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Duncan
That is correct, I missed the Formby pow wow so didn't get the opportunity to meet the other panellists or better discover their particular tastes.
That's a pity.
I suspect that in particular you'd get along well with Ed Battye. His course reviews on his excellent and very useful Golf Empire website are informative and insightful.
http://www.golfempire.co.uk/golf-course-reviews/golf-course-reviews.htm
He'd fit in well on this board.
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C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! ;D
Also like Rihc, I think the Sacred 9 one of the very best in this group. Its in my top 10 favourites regardless of price.
Ciao
Sean
"Scarred 9" was not a tyop. It refers to a place far far away from the fens of Cambridge (I can hear the theme to Star Wars as I think of this magical place....)
Hicr
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This is a strange formula. They ranked 150 courses from 1 to 150 and then just added the greenfee to it and the courses are ranked according to the result. So if the best course costs 70 Pounds and the 5th best costs 65 Pounds it is ranked higher. The best thing is: If you are a golfer from outside the UK and would do the same ranking in Euro or Dollar it would give a completely different ranking.
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I enjoyed the piece on Maurice Bembridge. One of those names you hear, but from a time before there was a true Euro Tour.
Ciao
Thanks for the heads up.Great article. 1974 was my first Masters.Amazing how different things were then for the players.
Imagine being unable to afford to take your clubs to Australia.
What a fantastic magazine
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£100 greenfee being seen affordable for the average golfer, ha ha ha ha ha. Wht planet do these guys live on? Some interesting courses in the list and nice to see new names in there though.
As for value for money. It is not rocket science. Just judge how good the course is based on none monetary grounds and then divide the result by the greenfee and you get how many points to the pound. Higher the points per pound the better the value.
Jon
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Jon
Its even more simple for me. Do I like the course enough to pay the green fee? There can be no value without quality so all questions of value rely mostly on the quality (as I see it) of the product. I don't give a damn if Joe Bloggs muni costs a tenner...if the course sucks the value sucks.
Ciao
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Read the review on Silloth - great picture by the way. Had to laugh when I read "If forced to find fault, the short par 3 9th is too fiddly.."
"Too fiddly"? 9 Silloth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgiqXeYMEus) is one EPIC golf hole!!
Fiddly! They obviously didn't play it when the wind was blowing hard. That is one tough, but great little "fiddly" hole.
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I dug out My Golf Week Britain & Ireland Top 1,000 Courses book with the section on 50 Best Value Courses which I've listed below. This list dates from 1999 and is supposedly reader produced although they don't say how. Anyway some interesting choices, some of which I've not played and some I haven't heard of which interest me the most. For example the two Welsh scrabble entrants at no. 13 and 14, does anyone know anything about them ?
1. Silloth on Solway
2. Perranporth
3. Boat of Garten
4. Tenby
5. Isle of Purbeck
6. Southerness
7. Kingussie
8. Machrie Hotel
9. Burnham & Berrow
10. Royal St Davids
11. Dooks
12. Hayling Island
13. Llanymynech
14. Borth & Ynslas
15. Carlow
16. Nefyn & District
17. St Enodoc
18. Tilgate Forest
19. Dunbar
20. Glasson
21. Cruden Bay
22. Machrihanish
23. Aberdovey
24. York
25. Stoneham
26. Belleisle
27. County Sligo (Rosses Point)
28. Tralee
29. St Andrews (New)
30. Connemara
31. Woodhall Spa
32. Barton-on-Sea
33. Hankley Common
34. Prince’s
35. Tramore
36. Crieff
37. Nairn
38. The Hertfordshire
39. Thorpe Wood
40. Saunton (East)
41. La Moye
42. Broadstone
43. Hillside
44. Royal West Norfolk
45. Westport
46. Headport
47. Crowborough Beacon
48. Ladybank
49. Pennard
50. Pyle & Kenfig
Niall
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Niall,
I have played B&Y. It is the other side of the estuary from Aberdovey. Very basic I seem to remember - a lot of very flat holes. Sean has done a tour below. The drive on the 2nd is the thing I remember most - sea wall, fairway, road and nothing else!
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43575.msg944040.html#msg944040
Haven't played Llanymynech but this is famous for 2 things. Firstly for being Ian Woosnam's home course and secondly for one of the holes that tees off in England and putts out in Wales (or the other way round!).
Ed
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Thanks Ed, B&Y looks the type of course that appeals to me. Looks well worth a play.
Niall
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I would be interested to see a listing of courses by number of greenkeeping staff.
Not saying less or more is better or better value or whatever, but it would be interesting to see where the big names sit as against the gems and lessor courses which many posting herein hold so dear, me included, and how other factors, such as the type of terrain, can have an influence on the number of staff.
Atb
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Atb
I understand that Royal Dornoch with its two full size links courses employs 18 greenkeepers while Moray GC, also with two full size links courses, employs 6. The likes of Wick with its single course has one full time greenkeeper and whatever members are willing to help. It would be interesting to think how these courses were rated if there were a level playing field.
Niall
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Niall,
Yes it would wouldn't it. Maybe not easy to define an objective measurement criteria but how much better would Moray be with 18 or how much worse would RD be with only 6? I guess one would have to be careful with short-term-ism and kneejerk reactions in relation to decline/improvement however, although a long-term analysis ought to suggest something.
The kind of thing all golf clubs (and all businneses/organisations inc gov'ts) should be reviewing constantly. Do we really need those flowerbeds, as an example, and the maintenance cost that comes with it. To paraphrase what was said on another thread and repeated by me elsewhere "it's not the golf that's expensive, it's everything else that goes on around it".
Atb
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In comparing RD to Moray, I'd suggest the difference between the two is RD is consistently at a higher level, conditioning wise, than Moray which only really hits the heights a few times a year.
Niall
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"In comparing RD to Moray, I'd suggest the difference between the two is RD is consistently at a higher level, conditioning wise, than Moray which only really hits the heights a few times a year."
Niall -
I know you are not a big fan of Dornoch. But are you seriously suggesting that, if Old Moray had a larger grounds crew and was maintained to a higher standard, it would be considered by many authoritative sources to be one of the top 25 courses in the world?
DT
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DT
Actually I am a fan of Dornoch but just don't rate it as high as others. As for "authoritative" sources I've already bumped heads with a few on here and frankly I suspect many are like sheep, which is why a lot of these ranking lists are self-perpetuating.
With regards the qualities of Moray, what brought it home to me was when I was up there this summer after a couple of years absence, was how good Moray was when in peak condition (I played in the week between the Moray Open and the Scottish Amateur Strokeplay). It was simply stunning, but it's a fact that it can't maintain that level of conditioning throughout the season as well as RD can which has 3 times as many greenstaff.
So when I say that I think Moray Old is as good if not better than RD, when Moray is in peak condition, I mean that as a compliment to Moray and not a slight on RD.
Niall
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DT
Actually I am a fan of Dornoch but just don't rate it as high as others. As for "authoritative" sources I've already bumped heads with a few on here and frankly I suspect many are like sheep, which is why a lot of these ranking lists are self-perpetuating.
Niall
Not only is it self perpetuating, when MOST rank and file travel up north they ONLY play Dornoch, along now with Castle Stuart and maybe Nairn so they aren't exposed to much else-thus further elevating the select few they play.
Ironically, many "second tier" courses got there because of their (perceived) lack of "championship" qualities, yet most of the time on the well knowns the tourists are herded forward to the front of visitors tees, and play a course far shorter (distancewise) than available at other courses slighted for their lack of scorecard length.
Not that there's anything wrong with golfers playing shorter courses, but often the "championship" length that keeps them "viable" is simply scorecard and not available to most.
One can be a fan of a course and still think it overrated.
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Jeff
That's pretty well what I mean about self-perpetuating rankings, you sum it up nicely.
To illustrate that point, on another thread I read someone say that Machrihanish certainly didn't have the best opening hole in Scotland and that Prestwicks 1st was definitely the best. It was a throw away line but it did occur to me that how qualified was that poster to make that statement ? Had he played more than a handful of the top courses in Scotland, bearing in mind you don't have to have a great course to have a great opening hole ? How many wonderful opening holes are there on fairly average courses that never get a mention on here.
As it happens I think modern big headed drivers have robbed the 1st at Machrihanish of much of its bite as it's simply too easy to get the ball airborne for Battery to scare you the way it used to. However off the top of my head I can think of one opener better than Prestwick (IMO) and that's Dornoch. And I don't say that to curry favour with DT. The first is simply a very good simple hole with any interesting green. Nothing dramatic required.
Niall
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"In comparing RD to Moray, I'd suggest the difference between the two is RD is consistently at a higher level, conditioning wise, than Moray which only really hits the heights a few times a year."
Niall -
I know you are not a big fan of Dornoch. But are you seriously suggesting that, if Old Moray had a larger grounds crew and was maintained to a higher standard, it would be considered by many authoritative sources to be one of the top 25 courses in the world?
DT
David,
I think the point Niall is making is made when you flip your point. If you were to halve the number of greenkeepers at Dornoch do you really think it would drop out of the top 25? I do not. I personally think that the few extra greenkeepers only improve the presentation but have no effect on the actually quality of the playing surfaces and overall standard of the course. Is it worth that extra £100K to have the cutting lines crisp all the time. As links golf is about blending one area seamlessly into another I for one do not greet this Americanisation of the presentation of some of our top links courses nor the hike in the price that comes with it.
Jon
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I think the point Niall is making is made when you flip your point. If you were to halve the number of greenkeepers at Dornoch do you really think it would drop out of the top 25? I do not. I personally think that the few extra greenkeepers only improve the presentation but have no effect on the actually quality of the playing surfaces and overall standard of the course. Is it worth that extra £100K to have the cutting lines crisp all the time. As links golf is about blending one area seamlessly into another I for one do not greet this Americanisation of the presentation of some of our top links courses nor the hike in the price that comes with it.
Jon
Spot on Jon. Too many higher echelon links courses are OTT with the manicuring etc so some nice aspects of playing them out of the usual main playing season is that the price is both lower and that they are also a bit less perfect, a bit more realistic, but still fine to play.
Atb
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I see, however, that they accomplished their main goal with the list ... there must be thirty advertisements from clubs that made the new top 100.
Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I'm sure the clubs will enjoy the extra play and income that will come from their ads being seen by an interested audience. These are commercial ventures after all, aren't they?
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I'm so glad to see Silloth get this recognition. It is truly one of the greatest pleasant surprises of my golfing life. Our Buda Cup there was off the chart. Of all the places we have visited I'd put Silloth at the top of the list for a repeat if that should ever come up. Of course, it would have to be scheduled during the beer & cider festival to entice Eric Smith! ;D
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I think the point Niall is making is made when you flip your point. If you were to halve the number of greenkeepers at Dornoch do you really think it would drop out of the top 25? I do not. I personally think that the few extra greenkeepers only improve the presentation but have no effect on the actually quality of the playing surfaces and overall standard of the course. Is it worth that extra £100K to have the cutting lines crisp all the time. As links golf is about blending one area seamlessly into another I for one do not greet this Americanisation of the presentation of some of our top links courses nor the hike in the price that comes with it.
Jon
Spot on Jon. Too many higher echelon links courses are OTT with the manicuring etc so some nice aspects of playing them out of the usual main playing season is that the price is both lower and that they are also a bit less perfect, a bit more realistic, but still fine to play.
Atb
I must run in different circles because I am dying to see courses in top nick...if I am lucky this happens a couple times a year. Most of the time even big dawgs are indifferently presented.
Ciao
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Come on, Sean, you know what they mean. Too many courses are chasing the American Dream of perfect presentation and losing the "natural" nature of their look. It is happening at a LOT of links courses, for example in the Highlands where Castle Stuart is driving the market to higher and higher prices. As prices escalate customers expect better and better conditions, which cost more and more money to maintain with larger and larger staffs. A bit of a vicious cycle that tends to price the average person out of the market. When I joined Deal six years ago the weekend guest fee was £75-80. It is now £150! The course has made great strides in improving its condition during this time and I enjoy the "new" status it has attained, but I've been shocked watching the rates creep up every year... as they have at nearly all highly rated courses. These "bang for your buck" lists help the average golfer find good value whereas the corporate outing doesn't care what it costs to entertain customers. It's the Pebble Beach syndrome.
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Come on, Sean, you know what they mean. Too many courses are chasing the American Dream of perfect presentation and losing the "natural" nature of their look. It is happening at a LOT of links courses, for example in the Highlands where Castle Stuart is driving the market to higher and higher prices. As prices escalate customers expect better and better conditions, which cost more and more money to maintain with larger and larger staffs. A bit of a vicious cycle that tends to price the average person out of the market. When I joined Deal six years ago the weekend guest fee was £75-80. It is now £150! The course has made great strides in improving its condition during this time and I enjoy the "new" status it has attained, but I've been shocked watching the rates creep up every year... as they have at nearly all highly rated courses. These "bang for your buck" lists help the average golfer find good value whereas the corporate outing doesn't care what it costs to entertain customers. It's the Pebble Beach syndrome.
+1 and most courses look WORSE for it.
It was once an outdoor game
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I'm so glad to see Silloth get this recognition. It is truly one of the greatest pleasant surprises of my golfing life. Our Buda Cup there was off the chart. Of all the places we have visited I'd put Silloth at the top of the list for a repeat if that should ever come up. Of course, it would have to be scheduled during the beer & cider festival to entice Eric Smith! ;D
Eric Smith + Cider (or was it Scrumpy?) = Not a good match LOL. I agree with you Mike re: Silloth it was awesome and tough.
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Whitty
To which kind of work for unnecessary preening are you referring? I don't come across a lot of preening on the courses I play...I am clamouring for better conditions (as my many posts above attest). The only thing I can think of which may be unnecessarily expensive for the results are revetted bunkers, but many people like that look even if it can be costly. I am not sure we can attribute the increasing green fees to this though. I think supply and demand is the main cause for the huge increase in green fee at the marquee clubs. There is also a rising the coat tails effect for neighbours. People will pay the green fees so clubs will continue to increase them regardless of budgetary considerations. Bottom line, it is the fault of golfers that green fees are so high because they have shown a willingness to pay more irrespective of other considerations.
For me, the work at Deal to encourage fescues and bents is not a scam to increase green fees. I think it needed to happen probably because of many decades of neglect and/or harmful practices. I have said it before, for decades golf in the UK was too cheap if a long term plan to mantain the proper playing characteristics and aesthetic sensiibilities of courses was in any way considered important. There is no question that many clubs went the wrong way in wasting money on water & feed regimes back in the day (and I still think so to some degree now), but if there is any hope of properly preserving links, heathland, downland and moorland courses money must be budgeted for long term purposes.
We all have choices and can skip the more expensive clubs we know are taking the mickey. I like cheap golf as much as the next guy, but I also realize we must be realistic and more importantly, strive to preserve what made our courses great in the first instance. There is no way I am buying that current maintenance practices are the cause of £100 plus green fees....that is nearly all down clubs getting their buck because they can...I can't blame them...especially if they are putting the money to good use in improving the courses.
Ciao
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Sean
Specifically on conditioning, what is it that lets the GB &I courses down in your opinion?
The few you felt were in top nick, what did they have/do that the others didn't?
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There is always a bit of luck involved when you choose your day at another course.
Weather on the day plays a big part in the conditioning as well as the enjoyment and ability to take a good look at the design features versus the need to keep dry.
Weather the days before plays a big part. They might not have been able to cut wet or dry can be reasons in the UK.
How near are you playing to a maintenance procedure. A good tip is to check when the club championship is as this is a good indicator that the course will be attempting to hit the high notes.
Greenstaff can't have their golf courses 10 out of 10 every day especially in the UK. The need to feed, top dress and aerate are all minus if they are done on your day or close to it.
It is a real shame when you see some golf reviews curse and downgrade courses because there were holes in the greens or there was a lot of sand on the green or the greens were bumpy (and the review date was March 3rd).
A good rater will discount conditions and see beyond, you certainly should not be downgrading a course in the winter time, however a top 100 for good winter conditions might be another thought.
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When a club has more than one course the lessor course is often not as well conditioned as the main course yet the conditioning of the lessor is none the less normally more than acceptable.
Atb
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Whitty
To which kind of work for unnecessary preening are you referring? I don't come across a lot of preening on the courses I play...I am clamouring for better conditions (as my many posts above attest). The only thing I can think of which may be unnecessarily expensive for the results are revetted bunkers, but many people like that look even if it can be costly. I am not sure we can attribute the increasing green fees to this though. I think supply and demand is the main cause for the huge increase in green fee at the marquee clubs. There is also a rising the coat tails effect for neighbours. People will pay the green fees so clubs will continue to increase them regardless of budgetary considerations. Bottom line, it is the fault of golfers that green fees are so high because they have shown a willingness to pay more irrespective of other considerations.
For me, the work at Deal to encourage fescues and bents is not a scam to increase green fees. I think it needed to happen probably because of many decades of neglect and/or harmful practices. I have said it before, for decades golf in the UK was too cheap if a long term plan to mantain the proper playing characteristics and aesthetic sensiibilities of courses was in any way considered important. There is no question that many clubs went the wrong way in wasting money on water & feed regimes back in the day (and I still think so to some degree now), but if there is any hope of properly preserving links, heathland, downland and moorland courses money must be budgeted for long term purposes.
We all have choices and can skip the more expensive clubs we know are taking the mickey. I like cheap golf as much as the next guy, but I also realize we must be realistic and more importantly, strive to preserve what made our courses great in the first instance. There is no way I am buying that current maintenance practices are the cause of £100 plus green fees....that is nearly all down clubs getting their buck because they can...I can't blame them...especially if they are putting the money to good use in improving the courses.
Ciao
+1
S,
This site in an essence proves your point which i agree with 100%. People in the US would sell their mother down the road to get on X golf course. Mid Pines a US example, since picking up members has raised their resort fees to $240. I played it peak season 20 years ago for $80. People don't think paying $240 is crazy for a round of golf, so go ahead and charge it if you can get it. Funny is I believe someone posted on here that Pebble Beach was $25 to play in the early 1970's. Did people have more sense back then?
I'm sure there are plenty of Arble choices that are good nics. He seems to be able to gauge value well.
$1,000,000 maint budget with 15,000 rounds(conservative for year round golf) gives you $66.66 a round it up to $85 to pay for golf staff. People fail to factor in F&B expenses and door greeters tripping over themselves. They have no problem overlooking the elephant in the room to focus on Maint. even if the course is improving its drainage which would make the shoulder season more enjoyable.
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Ben
A million dollars is £650,000. Most uk clubs don't turnover this let alone spend that much on maintenance.
Your price per round is way off as well for all but the 1% ers.
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Ryan,
$85 is 77 Euros. I can afford $85 and I'm not a 1%er. There are always going to be high end courses. IMO it isn't due to rising maint costs, it's due to a group of people willing to pay that much money to play there. My price per round is not off assuming F&B isn't losing their ass. I think what sean is saying is there isn't anything wrong with trying to improve shoulder season conditions and those costs don't make green fees double.
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Ben,
You need to look into US-UK salary's, pension's, general living costs etc etc before attempting like-for-like comparisons.
$85/€77 is £56 in the UK and I suggest that for 18-holes £56 is high enough to turn most UK golfers off (although some who are better off financially or are very enthusiastic might pay it on an occasional basis).
Atb
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Thomas,
I don't pay $85 that much to play a public course. If a course is private and allows outside play and has a high unaccompanied rate, why can't they charge it, if lemmings line up to play it? Just like every town and city in the US has different cost of livings and so forth. If UK golfers are turned off, don't play the course, I'm sure you have many courses that are very affordable. Ur just upset that over sea's travelers pay ridiculous amounts of money to play some of your sought after courses. If anything those people should help make certain clubs more sustainable and keep members dues from going up.
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Anyone can charge what the hell they like, it's a free country. But that doesn't mean people will go play there no matter what the price. We are talking about whether it is good business to price like that.
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Ryan,
$85 is 77 Euros. I can afford $85 and I'm not a 1%er. There are always going to be high end courses. IMO it isn't due to rising maint costs, it's due to a group of people willing to pay that much money to play there. My price per round is not off assuming F&B isn't losing their ass. I think what sean is saying is there isn't anything wrong with trying to improve shoulder season conditions and those costs don't make green fees double.
Price per round even for those who are members at top 100 courses won't be more than £45 or £50 for most. Membership of a very good course can be had for £1,200 - £1,300 in south / south west England and much less in Wales and Scotland.
Price per round means expenditure divided by number of rounds played. Not how much was paid twice in Scotland on a mini tour, your figures are way off for the uk. Your low maintenance vision is actually in the high end bracket here.
High end falls into two categories. Those looking for return on their initial investment. And members clubs looking to subsidise the annual subscription.
Sean ain't banging on the Sec's door at Burnham about the sharp rise in green fees over the past few years. He like all of us wants his membership subsidised by visiting players at times that don't impinge on him. When he plays away, he longs for the good ol days.
I'd suggest the sharp rise in greenfees at upper mid and high end is due to the following rather than market forces: members wanting their cake and eating it. Those at the better clubs can and do it. And due to better clubs being scarce and a treat, we'll keep paying the high Greenfees and the members get top 100 golf at nondescript suburban prices.
Most clubs in this bracket are just breaking even and keeping modest cash reserves. They probably should charge higher subs and plan better for failing irrigation, dillapidated clubhouses etc. Golf clubs are businesses and even those owned by members should charge the highest obtainable greenfee to benefit the owner / member.
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I would be happy enough just to see 'Sean A's best value courses'. Leave out silly and statistically dodgy rating scales. Benign autocracy is always the best form of government.
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Sean ain't banging on the Sec's door at Burnham about the sharp rise in green fees over the past few years. He like all of us wants his membership subsidised by visiting players at times that don't impinge on him. When he plays away, he longs for the good ol days.
In truth, Burnham's prices haven't risen that sharply in the past 10 years. It must have been 10 years ago or more that the green fee was £65. The market in the southwest is 5-10 years away of being capable of sustaining the £150 free for all seen in Scotland or London.
Sure, I don't want to pay a ton to play away, but I am very picky about where and when I play just for that reason. I am not going to give the Muirfield's, Birkdales Pebble Beaches and Pinehursts of the world their pound of my flesh because I think its a rip off...doesn't matter...they get plenty of people who will pay. Thats life in the big city.
Adrian...expectations of presentation is a sliding scale...the more I pay the more I expect. I don't care if it is winter when a club charges £75 for a course in poor nick. That is a lot of dosh and I expect good return for my money. If a club can't deliver I will slap it.
Martin...my value list would be exactly the same as my favourites because those are the courses that I really enjoy and would pay full whack to play at least once in a while.
Ciao
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Sean - Yes I agree, I too expect a lot for £75 though £75 and less in our winter is pretty much most courses, there can't be many at a hundred in the rainy season.
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Is Ladybank really that good? I played in 1992 and recall enjoying the course but it has never occurred to me that it was a course that deserves to be listed on a ranking.
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Ladybank gets a mention. For me that is the one course that really jumps out. It's been many years since I played it but I recall a course overgrown with Christmas trees flanking what seemed to be each and every fairway. No doubt there was a very good course somewhere in there but frankly even if price was no object I would rather play any number of the lower ranked courses with cheaper greens fees.
Niall
Of the twenty odd "major" courses I have been fortunate enough to play in Scotland, I have to agree with you regarding Ladybank, as it was there I had the least fun and my worst score. As a short and not very straight 18 handicapper, I was ending up in those trees about every other shot. With no option other than knocking it back in the fairway and trying again.
If I come back next year, there are courses I want to play again (N Berwick, Machrihanish, Brora, Fraserburgh) but not Ladybank.
I can find plenty of courses like that here in North Carolina!
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All this discussion about lists? What would Melvyn think? ;D
I quite like this list. The methodology isn't perfect but it gets rid of a number of usual suspects to top a list because of their cost and then the formula brings a few others to the top, raising their profiles, which can't be bad for them. Many of these are still going to be special trips for most UK golfers anyway.
I'm naturally chuffed that Notts (Hollinwell) makes it to number 12 and would happily play any of those above it at the drop of a hat, except perhaps Ladybank which isnt bad, but I'm never likely to be in Fife looking for heather and pines to be honest...
Cheers,
James
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I think indeed this is a good list and a valuable one for most readers of this publication. It's an excellent discussion piece has found it's own niche with the in the ranking lists and is likely at least if not more interesting than top 100 world ranking lists for their readers. On top of that yes it sells advertising and that's how they survive. 100 extra possible clients at least once a year. I'm certain that many of them could use the extra greenfee revenue generated from such an exercise and exposure.
Sean's involvement gives it a real sense of validity as far as I'm concerned. He knows his GCA and knows the courses extremely well.
Nice work Sean! Though I'm not sure how keen I would be to have been publicly outed as a US expat. You might end up being shut out of most UK clubs...
As for the Deal example of raising prices. I think it's a good thing. It's a private club, that opens it's doors to the public, supply and demand are working there, it's a brilliant course and seems to be getting more and more US traffic if I'm not mistaken. Upping the rates allows the locals a few more pints for putting up with 5 hour rounds from yanks trying to navigate the wind swept dunes.
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A couple of observations. Nothing more.
Ladybank. I have a couple of good mates who are members so I've played it lots over the years. It's a lovely place to be and used to have awesome catering, but, to use an Americanism, it ain't all that. There's maybe three or four great holes, ten or twelve okays and three or four clunkers. Like so many of Fife's old courses, it used to host local Open qualifying, which gave it some kudos, but that's gone now. It's also still highly regarded amongst the chattering classes, so is one of the few courses in Scotland to still have a waiting list for membership.
Blairgowrie. I waited about twenty years before an opportunity finally arose to play it. Needless to say, my anticipation levels were off the scale. The reputation, the MacKenzie connection, the photos I'd seen, that fabulous clubhouse.
I've never been more disappointed in anything in my life. I was bored to death by about the eighth hole. Sure, it's a lovely place to play golf and was in very fine condition, but there seemed to be very little Mackenzie left in it, lots of repetitive shots and very little quirk. I enjoyed my day, but I'm not rushing back.
F.
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David
Thanks for the kudos, but I think the other chaps are well versed in GB&I courses.
I am not at all sure why Ladybank is so high up the list...just one of those things.
My top 10 (at the time of the ranking) of which 4 made the top 10.. so not bad....
North Berwick (gone over £100 for 2016 :-\ )
St Enodoc
Alwoodley
Woking
Notts
Sacred 9
Ganton
Burnham
Little Aston
Pennard
Merry Christmas
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It would be interesting to see a listing like this but with the winter greenfees used instead of the main season ones.
Atb
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Atb
Wouldn't most fees come down in a fairly regular manner, meaning the threshold would need to be dropped to £50 or whatever? Otherwise, many of the big names jump back into the picture.
Over time I would like to see high season threshold drop to about £50. It would take a lot more knowledge of wee provincial courses, but I am convinced a very cool list of courses could be had. Maybe it would only be 50 courses to start. I bet there are less than 40 courses on the current list at £50 or below.
Ciao
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I bet there are less than 40 courses on the current list at £50 or below.
Actually, 27.
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Would the order of the 27 change plus, to make the list up the 100 again, which courses would 'replace' the 73 that drop out?
atb
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Over time I would like to see high season threshold drop to about £50. It would take a lot more knowledge of wee provincial courses, but I am convinced a very cool list of courses could be had.
+1
No small panel is likely to have the necessary in-depth local knowledge of such courses across the country, but a wide network of local enthusiasts most certainly would.
Surely contributors to GCA comprise just such a network? For a little seasonal fun why don't we all compile our own top twenty list of courses we know charging under £50 - ranked according to an agreed scale - which can then be consolidated into a meaningful national survey?
Here's my contribution;
1 Tenby £30.00 6.50
2 Reddish Vale £30.00 6.10
3 Cavendish £35.00 6.00
4 Pleasington £42.00 6.00
5 Conwy £50.00 6.00
6 Bramall Park £40.00 5.90
7 Carlisle £40.00 5.80
8 Fleetwood £35.00 5.80
9 Crosland Heath £32.00 5.70
10 Romiley £35.00 5.70
11 Sutton Coldfield £40.00 5.60
12 Brampton £32.00 5.60
13 Morecambe £35.00 5.50
14 Lancaster £39.50 5.50
15 North Manchester £25.00 5.40
16 Mottram Hall £50.00 5.40
17 Bramhall £44.00 5.40
18 Oswestry £40.00 5.30
19 Oakmere Park £26.00 5.20
20 Halifax £25.00 5.10
Most people seemed to have played Cavendish so I used this at a 6 as my benchmark and rated other courses in comparison.
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Duncan
I think you can see the problem with a big panel when comparing our lists. They are very different because our experiences are very different. Most people will be familiar with 2nd/3rd tier courses in their general area, but not in other parts of the country or very hit and miss in other parts of the country. A small panel has a chance to engender an element of trust between panellists.
My top 20 based on quality, not preference.
Kington £28
Perranporth £36
Cavendish £26
Leckford Old £25 (for 18)
Cumberwell Park Orange £35 (for 18)
Carnoustie Burnside £45
Reddish Vale £30
Sutton Coldfield Winter £35
Harborne £45
Cleeve Cloud £18
Oxford £28
West Cornwall £37
Yelverton £30
Church Stretton £30
Seascale £35
Golspie £45
Gullane #3 £33
Painswick £20
Temple £35
Players Club Stranahan £20
_________________________________
Shiskine ?
North Wales £37
Stonehaven £32
Musselburgh Old ?
Ashburnham £45
B&Y £40
Nefyn & District £46
Stinchcombe Hill £25
Minch Old £19
Worcester £40
Porthmadog ?
Tadmarton Heath £40
B&B Channel £20 (all day)
Canterbury £40
Askernish £35
Bude & N Cornwall £28
Seaton Carew £42
Fraserburgh £45
Plus Boat of Garten £45
Note: Courses with green fees costing £49 or £50 were dropped as I expect they will go up for 2016.
Note 2: Courses in Blue are ranked in the National Club Golfer Magazine...I haven't seen them or not in a long time, but I suspect they have a good chance to be in my top 20.
Duncan...according to the mag piece Tenby & Conwy are more than £50 for the most expensive weekday fee.
Ciao
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A few more not mentioned bynothers to add to the mix - these are the most expensive greenfees, cheaper deals are also often available
South, West and Mid Wales -
Cardigan £30 mw, £40 we - clifftop, great seaside views
Welshpool £25 mw, £30 we - hilltop quirk by Mr Braid and mowed by sheep
Clyne £40 mw, £50 we - moorland with sheep etc
Borth & Ynnnnymejig £40 - out and back links
Llandrindod Wells - prices are slightly confusing, might be as low as £12 mw - hilltop with better views than Kington!
England -
South Staffs - £43 mw - immaculate parkland, long yardage, well worth a visit
Tavistock - £30 mw & we - upland/moorland including ponies and cattle and sheep
And a couple of UK splendid 9-holers -
St Olaf at Cruden Bay - £25 mw, £35 we - these are play all day prices
Channel course at Burnham - £25 for twice around
Atb
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Mike I'm not sure what you are saying about the weekend visitor rate at Deal. The club despite ever increasing member and member guest play chooses to allow limited visitor play on weekend afternoons. Are you saying we should cut prices and fill up the course to the detriment of the membership?
I joined the club in 1998 and since then subs have tripled, visitor fees have tripled and the member guest fee has gone up 50% from £20 to £30. Fortunately the guest fee is a member benefit so it don't want it to rise further!!
David as for 5 hour rounds members tend to avoid the visitor times!
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Chappers
To be honest I would prefer only dormy guests allowed weekend access to advance tee times at my club. Otherwise, tee times would only be available on the day and at full rate no matter the season. The course needs a chance to recover!
Ciao
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Over time I would like to see high season threshold drop to about £50. It would take a lot more knowledge of wee provincial courses, but I am convinced a very cool list of courses could be had.
+1
No small panel is likely to have the necessary in-depth local knowledge of such courses across the country, but a wide network of local enthusiasts most certainly would.
Surely contributors to GCA comprise just such a network? For a little seasonal fun why don't we all compile our own top twenty list of courses we know charging under £50 - ranked according to an agreed scale - which can then be consolidated into a meaningful national survey?
Here's my contribution;
1 Tenby £30.00 6.50
2 Reddish Vale £30.00 6.10
3 Cavendish £35.00 6.00
4 Pleasington £42.00 6.00
5 Conwy £50.00 6.00
6 Bramall Park £40.00 5.90
7 Carlisle £40.00 5.80
8 Fleetwood £35.00 5.80
9 Crosland Heath £32.00 5.70
10 Romiley £35.00 5.70
11 Sutton Coldfield £40.00 5.60
12 Brampton £32.00 5.60
13 Morecambe £35.00 5.50
14 Lancaster £39.50 5.50
15 North Manchester £25.00 5.40
16 Mottram Hall £50.00 5.40
17 Bramhall £44.00 5.40
18 Oswestry £40.00 5.30
19 Oakmere Park £26.00 5.20
20 Halifax £25.00 5.10
Most people seemed to have played Cavendish so I used this at a 6 as my benchmark and rated other courses in comparison.
Duncan,
the list is still flawed in my book. Value for money is not best course score under a certain greenfee cost but the cost per point. Halifax comes in at just under £5 per point where as Mottram Hall is over £9 so far less value for money.
For a course charging £100 to be as good value for money as Halifax it would need to be scoring around 20 points and how many would do that.
Jon
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Fair point Jon, but for most golfers in the UK £50 is at the limits of what they are prepared to pay for anything less than a top 50 course. 99% of golfers wouldn't pay £100 for a round, even at Muirfield or Birkdale. In my area it's hard for any club, no matter how good the course, to sell green fees for more than £25!
A list of good quality courses under £50 would be a great asset.
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Jon,
Doesn't your formula assume that the ranking score is linear (and most are not) and also that value for money is a linear function? Again, I doubt that is really true. The fact is that value for money is entirely subjective, which makes this sort of ranking so difficult.
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Jon,
Doesn't your formula assume that the ranking score is linear (and most are not) and also that value for money is a linear function? Again, I doubt that is really true. The fact is that value for money is entirely subjective, which makes this sort of ranking so difficult.
Mark,
yes it does but then I would assume that all courses in the same list are judged through the same criteria and so the scores reached are valid in comparison to each other. It is also the points ranking of the formula which is subjective as the greenfee cost is a given. This means that value for money is also a subjective but then any type of ranking is so thus value for money is no less valid than the points ranking it is based on. What it does show is that the higher priced courses are not as good value for money than many lower priced courses.
Duncan,
all valid points. I used value for money as it is the OP title for this thread. As such I do not believe a limit on the cost of the greenfee is a point to take into account. Indeed, I would imagine that such a ranking including all courses would show that any course with a GF above £75 would have difficulty making the top 200. Food for thought!!!
Jon
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In a ranking of courses charging a rack rate of under £50 I wouldn't include a "value for money" component.
Apart from anything else, the rack-rate green fee is almost totally meaningless in many cases. A good example is Tenby. Their website doesn't actually list the summer green fee. If you dig down however, into their BRS booking system you find that their standard midweek summer fee is £60. This is discounted at most times to either £25 or £40. Below is the example of May next year.
http://www.brsgolf.com/tenby/visitor_month.php?course_id=1&d_date=2016-5-01&nav_date=2016-01-01
So what is the green fee at Tenby? It is quite clear that there is no need to pay more than £40, so why class it as being £60?
We are planning on doing something very similar at Reddish Vale, Hike the rack-rate up and then discount down via the on-line booking system at the quieter times of day.
Leave visitors feeling as though they've got a bargain without sacrificing any revenue and juggle visitor rounds into the quieter afternoon periods, so keeping members happy.
I suspect that the published green fee at many second tier courses will become increasingly meaningless as everyone utilises the BRS system or something similar to adapt their fees to supply and demand. Many clubs also give their pro almost total discretion to negotiate green fees on a case by case basis.
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Duncan
For mine, the most expensive weekday rate is the rate I would use for anything like this sort of endeavour. Once we get into the business of discounted fees as the "real" rate it never ends and we end up in twilight rates etc. If you get a deal great, but mags have to be realistic in what they publish and its too complicated to list all the discounts etc.
Unlike Jon, I would simply set the top rate and rank the best courses under that rate. Trying devise a value formula will raise more questions. Its easier to understand Best Courses Under £50 than anything else.
Ciao
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I agree. You've got to have some kind of benchmark.
If such a listing found favour I'm sure that clubs such as Tenby which rely to a large extent on holiday golfers would adjust their rack rates slightly to ensure inclusion. As most of their visitor rounds are clearly below that level anyway it would not compromise revenue.
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A few more not mentioned bynothers to add to the mix - these are the most expensive greenfees, cheaper deals are also often available.
Atb
On reflection, this is the problem with the list and why it is flawed. I very rarely pay the absolute full rate as I look for deals so this list is not accurate. For example, playing St. Enodoc before 9.30 reduces the fee to £45. Saunton green fee after 2.30 is £45. Also , in August, the green fee is £50, or £160 for a 4 ball, and £35 after 2.30. i'm arranging a Sat/Sun trip next August playing 2.30 and 10.50 where green fees at Saunton are £75 each in total - the £80 rate is irrelevant for me.
I would be more interested with a list of how you can play great courses for less than £50 as this would be much more useful.
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I picked up a copy of NCG at Craigielaw on Monday. FWIW, I read that they will publish a "next 50" list in the next issue.
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Even some of the big name courses in GB&I are accessable with lower prices if you do enough research. Twightlight or earlybird, shoulder season, winter season, open comps etc.
Atb
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I would simply set the top rate and rank the best courses under that rate. Trying devise a value formula will raise more questions. Its easier to understand Best Courses Under £50 than anything else.
Ciao
Sean,
How is trying to devise a value formula any less valid than a formula for quality of the course. At least the top rate GF is an actual defined fact where as the rating you seem to accept as valid is based much more on opinion with very little actual solid facts. Why is £50 the correct cut off point rather than £48 or £45 or any other figure randomly plucked out of the ether?
New Rankings of GB Courses by "Value for Money" is the theme of this thread so how do you rate that if you do not include the varying costs between courses of their top rate greenfee into the equation? If the value for money rating is ever invalidated then it is by the contrary nature of course ratings.
Jon
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This is a great idea, ah, but never mind a rating system or a value rating, agreeing the cost is a major stumbling block!
I can't wait :-)
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I would simply set the top rate and rank the best courses under that rate. Trying devise a value formula will raise more questions. Its easier to understand Best Courses Under £50 than anything else.
Ciao
Sean,
How is trying to devise a value formula any less valid than a formula for quality of the course. At least the top rate GF is an actual defined fact where as the rating you seem to accept as valid is based much more on opinion with very little actual solid facts. Why is £50 the correct cut off point rather than £48 or £45 or any other figure randomly plucked out of the ether?
New Rankings of GB Courses by "Value for Money" is the theme of this thread so how do you rate that if you do not include the varying costs between courses of their top rate greenfee into the equation? If the value for money rating is ever invalidated then it is by the contrary nature of course ratings.
Jon
Jon
The formula for value is easy...set a cut off point. I don't see much value in coming up with a tortured formula for value or quality for that matter. All formulas do is provide fake numerical "evidence" for what our guts and brains are telling us. I always say the most important aspect of value is quality. A cheap mediocre course which we don't look forward to playing doesn't provide good value...it provides good opportunity to play. I don't see any reason in setting a limit and adjusting ranking based on price to quality. Its way too difficult and arbitrary to devise and the results will be "fixed" to one's preferences anyway. Save time and just go with your preferences :D
Ciao
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When calculating 'value for money' should the time and cost of travelling and staying and food and various sorts of beverages be included in the calculation? Even time off work (unless retired)? Just asking.
Atb
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All you really need to do is create a larger 'best of' perhaps to 500 regardless of the price and then just filter out by price.
Eventually Clubs like Cleeve Hill will win best course in the UK under £19.
I think the real golf price barriers are at £20, £30, £40 and £50 anything plus those prices are real special treats.
The biggest section just want low price say sub £20.
The £30 section are probably members of clubs but resent high prices and look for the best value deals.
The £40 and £50 are similar to the thirtypounders but like a bit more quality and like to play different courses each time.
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Adrian
There is precious little out there worth playing with green fees under £40 in high season. At £20 there isn't a list. The point of list is first and foremost is about quality. I can't see any point in a list where folks know the courses are dog tracks.
Ciao
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Sean - I totally agree no point in playing dogtracks. There are plenty of courses worth playing sub £40 (full rack rate). There are some sub £20. Cleeve Hill is £18 Midweek £20 Weekend (not under £20 if it is weekend rate) and your beloved Kington chips in at £28 and £34.
Point being exactly what you say. Firstly you make the list by quality. All you then need is the price. You merely filter out the ones at £51 or more or at any price bar you want..
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Thomas,
I do not think you should factor in travel expenses, etc. as these will vary depending on where you live.
Adrian,
I agree totally with your premise that first you make a list by quality and then you need the price to set against it. Indeed, I have said just this several times on this thread already.
Sean,
it is difficult to know what you are saying as you strike an idea down as useless in one sentence only to use said useless idea to back up your point of view with the next line. If a 'value for money' rating using the factual cost of greenfee set against a quality rating is not valid then a 'quality' rating based up on opinion is no more valid. Yet you dismiss the former and vaunt the latter. You have stated on many occasions how some top end courses are high quality yet the greenfees are set at a price above that which you are willing to pay, ergo you do not find them to be value for money.
Jon
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Jon
When I say a course is too expensive that is a personal judgement for my wallet. It is not a blanket statement for all.
Its hard enough deciphering quality let alone trying to do the impossible and devise formulas for value. That is not something which I think has much truck across a wide spread of golfers. Its much easier to set a limit and pick the best courses under that limit.
Ciao
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The formula is simple;
Firstly list the best courses.
With that list add the price to each course.
What that will show you is;
The best course in the UK regardless of price is.
The best course in the UK at under <insert your price>.
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Adrian
That isn't formula for value :o Its simply the best courses under a price limit...which is what I have been advocating all along.
Ciao
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Jon
When I say a course is too expensive that is a personal judgement for my wallet. It is not a blanket statement for all.
Yet this is a judgement by you on whether it is worth paying or not ergo a judgement on its 'value for money'
Jon
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I just borrowed Duncan's list as an example and by deviding the quality score by the GF you arrive at a 'value for money' rating (I rounded up or down to the nearest second decimal). The ranking by quality is in brackets.
GF Quality vfm
1 (1) Tenby £30.00 6.50 0.22
2 (15) North Manchester £25.00 5.40 0.21
3 (2) Reddish Vale £30.00 6.10 0.20
4 (19) Oakmere Park £26.00 5.20 0.20
5 (20) Halifax £25.00 5.10 0.20
6 (9) Crosland Heath £32.00 5.70 0.18
7 (12) Brampton £32.00 5.60 0.18
8 (3) Cavendish £35.00 6.00 0.17
9 (8 ) Fleetwood £35.00 5.80 0.17
10 (10) Romiley £35.00 5.70 0.16
11 (13) Morecambe £35.00 5.50 0.16
12 (6) Bramall Park £40.00 5.90 0.15
13 (7) Carlisle £40.00 5.80 0.15
14 (4) Pleasington £42.00 6.00 0.14
15 (11) Sutton Coldfield £40.00 5.60 0.14
16 (14) Lancaster £39.50 5.50 0.14
17 (18) Oswestry £40.00 5.30 0.13
18 (5) Conwy £50.00 6.00 0.12
19 (17) Bramhall £44.00 5.40 0.12
20 (16) Mottram Hall £50.00 5.40 0.11
So a course charging £100 for a greenfee would need to score 22.0 points to be as good value for money as Tenby. Of course other factors such as location, popularity and facilities to name but a few would also have an effect on the GF price.
Jon
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Jon
Of course I make a judgement for myself...don't we all? The point is we all have different thresholds and different ideas of which courses to push the boat out with.
I guess if your formula floats yer boat then very fine. For mine, I would prefer not to combine two subjective lists when its hard enough to devise one. To me, the value aspect is far more subjective (at least we have a list of some 150 or so courses which are in the conversation for "best"...for value every damn course in the country is a candidate) so I would just forget about it. Eliminate the word "value" and instead call it "Best Courses Under....."
Ciao
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Adrian
There is precious little out there worth playing with green fees under £40 in high season. At £20 there isn't a list. The point of list is first and foremost is about quality. I can't see any point in a list where folks know the courses are dog tracks.
Ciao
Sean
I nearly jumped right in on your "at £20 there isn't a list" comment, to give a long list of courses up north that I played on several occasions that are great fun and under £20, and then I thought, are they really under £20 ? If you look at the website, the rack rate is probably greater although not that much greater but in reality when do you ever pay the rack rate ? I remember pitching up at Kingussie, and they would only take £7.50 from me as they thought the greens weren't the best. I've played Cullen, Moray New, Forres, Buckpool, Strathlene, Spey Bay, Hopeman, Duff House Royal and even Elgin, all on several occasions for £20 or less. Most times you don't have to ask for the reduced rate, they just give it to you. It makes you wonder how realistic the rack rates are on the websites.
Now I suppose the other question is just how good are these courses ? They certainly aren't dog tracks and I'd have thought Elgin and DHR at least are more than contenders if you use Ladybank as a benchmark. I suppose what I'm getting at there are pockets of great value golf out there, away from the masses, that are there to be played.
Niall
ps. supplementary question, for £20 a round, how many clunker holes will you put up with ?
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Sean,
I agree with you on the point of it is all subjective when it comes to 'quality' but the added factor which produces 'value for money' (VFM) is factual and not opinion. If a VFM rating has a failing then it is the 'quality' part of the formula that is questionable. If you reject VFM rating then you must also reject 'quality' rating. A person not doing so holds an invalid position.
The reason I have brought up VFM is because it is the OP Topic Title where as the I pluck a figure out of the ether 'best under' idea is not.
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Jon
I am not sure what you think "value" means, but the term is absolutely subjective. Its an evaluation or estimate of the value of something...in this case the value of green fees. For me, good value is a willingness to pay full whack. Excellent value is thinking I would pay more if asked. Poor value is an unwillingness to pay full whack. Your idea of the three may be completely different.
Ciao
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Jon's right Sean. If you accept that, in some way, value is Fn(quality,price) then the price is set. Only the quality is subjective.
If you don't accept this, what else comes into value other than quality and price?
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Jon's right Sean. If you accept that, in some way, value is Fn(quality,price) then the price is set. Only the quality is subjective.
If you don't accept this, what else comes into value other than quality and price?
Adam
The concept of value is about a personal combination of price and quality...a combo which is different for each and every person...I think often on each and every day...depending on how the course was presented etc. Many people could care less about paying £150 for a game whereas others would baulk at the idea of £75 for a game....for the same course. I can't see how it is possible that one formula can even begin to cover the gambit of personal opinions concerning value.
Ciao
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Jon's right Sean. If you accept that, in some way, value is Fn(quality,price) then the price is set. Only the quality is subjective.
If you don't accept this, what else comes into value other than quality and price?
Adam
The concept of value is about a personal combination of price and quality...a combo which is different for each and every person...I think often on each and every day...depending on how the course was presented etc. Many people could care less about paying £150 for a game whereas others would baulk at the idea of £75 for a game....for the same course. I can't see how it is possible that one formula can even begin to cover the gambit of personal opinions concerning value.
Ciao
Sean - You simply have a ranking depending on nothing but quality. You also have the PRICE which is objectve since it becomes a fact. You could have any amount of additional columns, for which in column A: courses are deleted (unranked from the UNDER £100 LIST) in column B courses are deleted (unranked from the UNDER £75 LIST) column C could be £50 and D could be £30. Thus a course ranked number 96 in the main list might be 45 in the under £100 list 29 in the under £75 list 14 in the under £50 list and NUMBER ONE in the under £30 list.
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Never even crossed my mind you'd ask for a discount on published green fees, not that I usually pay a green fee more than 4 rounds a year on a boys trip.
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As we are talking in The UK where would Doak rated courses stand with GF rates as a starting point?
I've no idea and an waiting on my CG V1 to get a start, a few best rated and price down to a few cheapest and rating?
If you can start with something that fits there you can move it to non CG rated courses, no?
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Never even crossed my mind you'd ask for a discount on published green fees, not that I usually pay a green fee more than 4 rounds a year on a boys trip.
Life is unfortunately very different away from the very top clubs charging £100 or more.
The pro at a typical second or third tier club spends a good proportion of his time fielding telephone enquiries from potential visitors, all of whom are trying to negotiate a deal and are playing one club off against another. The "rack rate" is paid by almost no-one.
Across huge swathes of the country, outside of the elite clubs it is increasingly difficult to attract visitors at more than £20 a round. Clubs with healthy memberships can get by fine without casual visitors, but membership levels at most clubs are in decline, making green fees a vital source of income.
Why are membership levels in decline? Amongst other reasons, because casual golfers can play pretty well wherever they want for £20 a round! The curse of TeeOffTimes!
It truly is a death spiral...
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Duncan,
spot on with the assessment of clubs discounting GFs being suicide.
Sean,
value for money is something that is assessed for almost every product that is sold on the market from toothbrushes to Ferraris. The concept is well practiced and well accepted. However, what you are talking about is the price a person is willing to pay which is dependent on their wealth and possible individual preferences but it is not a judgement of value for money.
Jon
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Using the "most expensive weekday rack rate" would seem a very oxymoronic way to rate courses on a value for money scale as nearly anyone looking for value doesn't pay the rack rates.
Most times for my groups, the only time the rack rate ever comes in is when using a "2 for 1" or 50% discount such as Open Fairways. Nearly always there is a better rate available, but generally not as low as 2 for 1.
A[size=78%]s Niall states, it's generally not something you have to negotiate for.[/size]
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For those who think that under 20 squid courses are all dog tracks check out the following:
http://www.fifegolftrust.co.uk/
Of the 7 courses (all at or under 14 squid) for 18+ holes, in order of value for money:
1. Kinghorn. Old Tom Morris design, scrunched in WWII to make room for an airfield, but still good and very linksy and quirky, with (currently) the best greens in Fife. Good modern clubhouse.
2. Dunnikier Park. Built in the 70's as a possible Open qualifier, this is a solid parkland course that has dramatically improved in presentation over the past few years. Good old fashioned clubhouse.
3. Scoonie. That course you first see on the right when driving on the Standing Stanes road towards Leven, Lundin and Elie. Some very good holes, particularly the latter ones which abut Leven. "Clubhouse" only to be entered to play your green fee.
4. Glenrothes. Similar to Dunnikier, with many good holes and excellent views. Decent working man's clubhouse.
5. Aucterderran. The famous "Scarred Nine." 9-holes built over coal mines, by miners and used by ex-miners. 3-5 of the holes would not be out of place on the best of the UK heathland courses. Like Scoonie, the club is an afterthought, but has some great photos if what working man's golf in Fife was like 100 years ago.
6. Cowdenbeath. Modern track that is worth the 10 squid green fee, if you are adventurous. Another small cinder block clubhouse which serves calofiric food.
7. Lochore. Modern track with some nice loch views, integrated with a wildlife center. Never been in the clubhouse.
Enjoy
Rich
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Rihc
Sure, there are some good courses for under £20, but 100 or even 50? Its a non-starter idea.
Jon
Perhaps we have been at cross purposes, but because any list of the sort we are talking about will be comprises 100% of good courses the definition of value I would use is the following...hence the idea of something being over-priced is very common.
The worth (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/worth#worth__8) of something compared (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/compare#compare__2) to the price paid or asked for it:[/size]at £12.50 the book is good value[/size][COUNT NOUN]:[/size] [/color]North American the wine represents a good value for $17.95[/font][/font][/size]
Adrian
I agree with your idea (and have said so at least twice previously), but it is not a value formula as Jon proposed. Its simply a best of list with cost limits. To me this is by far the easiest and best method to use as it concentrates solely on quality at a certain price.
Jeff
I don't see how it is possible to publish a list which is based on the cheapest price some guy allegedly received at some point. All discounts based on discount schemes, pro affiliations, guest of member, season, opens, county card, reciprocals, society (usually for 8 or more players) etc should not be included because any one price can be misleading due to very limited availability, etc etc etc. Prices must be verifiable for the mag and easy to convey on the list. If a punter is interested in playing a course he will do his own investigation into costs. The list included in this thread is meant to offer a flavour of what is available to punters for £100 or less...not be an exhaustive expose on pricing. Using the costing as the editor chose is the only way to obtain a consistent measurement across the board.
Ciao
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Never even crossed my mind you'd ask for a discount on published green fees, not that I usually pay a green fee more than 4 rounds a year on a boys trip.
Mark
In truth, it's not something I'm in the habit of asking for however when I was up north the Press & Journal used to do deals with "local" clubs and publish them every Spring and Autumn for certain periods. They probably still do. I used to take advantage of the deals (usually £12 a round from memory) to play courses I wouldn't normally play and more often than not I came away having discovered, if not a great course, certainly some entertaining golf.
As I was travelling about a fair bit with the clubs in the back of the car, on several occasions I stopped off at a club where the course looked interesting and asked whether they were part of the P&J scheme. Some weren't but knew of the deal and were happy to offer the discounted price. The green fee at Kingussie was actually a discount on the discount. Basically you don't need to hussle to get deals which leads me to believe that the published rack rate is often the exception rather than the norm.
Niall
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Duncan I appreciate Deal is at the higher end of clubs but interestingly since the recession in 2009 our green fee rate is £50 higher but revenue has remained steady and membership is very strong possibly because it's very good value against the green fee multiplier. We even raised the joining fee for country members with no adverse effect on applications.
I didn't agree with raising green fees so steeply but was proved wrong.
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Duncan I appreciate Deal is at the higher end of clubs but interestingly since the recession in 2009 our green fee rate is £50 higher but revenue has remained steady and membership is very strong possibly because it's very good value against the green fee multiplier. We even raised the joining fee for country members with no adverse effect on applications.
I didn't agree with raising green fees so steeply but was proved wrong.
Chappers
I believe your club raised fees with long term purposes in mind. A lot has been done to the course and house with that expected cash intake. These are good reasons to raise fees if you ask me.
Ciao
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Sean it would be fair to say all golfers had their golf too cheap at Deal for many, many years and we have invested heavily in the past 15 years, partly through ambition and partly necessity.
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Chappers
Nearly all golfers in Britain have had golf too cheap at the expense of future health.
Ciao
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Sean,
I think maybe we have been talking at cross purposes. Players generally do not chose courses due to VFM but rather whether they enjoy playing them. Having said that, it is interesting to be able to compare what you are getting for your money from course to course. VFM is not about deciding which is the best course to play.
As to your comment
Nearly all golfers in Britain have had golf too cheap at the expense of future health.
I find this to be a totally alien attitude and I suspect very few would agree with you. I for one feel golf is a sport open to all levels of society from the very wealthy to the working class and even unemployed. From the very old down to the very young. It certainly is not and should never be only for the better off and thankfully in the UK this is not the case.
The only people who might be accused of getting golf too cheaply are those course rater bagging freebies ;)
Jon
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By too cheap I mean golfers have been paying for what it costs for the immediate round without putting away any money for infrastructural investment. Golf always costs more than immediate costs if the long term health of club is important.
Ciao
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Value for money.
Gold Digests recently advised No 1 course in the World, Royal County Down, has a full summer season midweek morning greenfee price of £200 for 18-holes.
Does this represent good value for money? Would you pay this?
If not, what would be your 'value for money' price point to pay to play 18-holes at RCD on a mid summer midweek morning?
£175? £150? £125? £100? £75? £50? Less?
Atb
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Atb
£200 is well outside my comfort zone for Co Down. I could see paying ~£125 once every few years...thats about it.
Ciao
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Value for money.
Gold Digests recently advised No 1 course in the World, Royal County Down, has a full summer season midweek morning greenfee price of £200 for 18-holes.
Does this represent good value for money? Would you pay this?
If not, what would be your 'value for money' price point to pay to play 18-holes at RCD on a mid summer midweek morning?
£175? £150? £125? £100? £75? £50? Less?
Atb
No. Do as I did and play twice over two days and stay the night in the Slieve Donard in March for the same price.
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Sean,
I am in agreement with what you said in post 129 though any properly run club should have this factored in.
Thomas,
it is important to understand that VFM is not the same as what you are prepared to pay for it. I do not think any course is worth more than about £80 from a VFM perspective but would probably pay more for a one time play of a course that had a high reputation such as RCD. However, £200 is way outside what I would pay for it unless it was a deal such as Ryan talked about.
Jon
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Sean,
I am in agreement with what you said in post 129 though any properly run club should have this factored in.
Thomas,
it is important to understand that VFM is not the same as what you are prepared to pay for it. I do not think any course is worth more than about £80 from a VFM perspective but would probably pay more for a one time play of a course that had a high reputation such as RCD. However, £200 is way outside what I would pay for it unless it was a deal such as Ryan talked about.
Jon
Jon
If properly run clubs factored in the future they wouldn't be in a mess! Hence the reason golf was too cheap for far too long. For sure there is a fine line between a club having too much and simply being in a position to waste reserves...which most clubs will surely do given the chance. The bottom line is clubs are not run for the future or with forward thinking. Golf clubs are very reactionary and in these times that is an approach that will not often fare very well.
Ciao
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Value for money.
Gold Digests recently advised No 1 course in the World, Royal County Down, has a full summer season midweek morning greenfee price of £200 for 18-holes.
Does this represent good value for money? Would you pay this?
If not, what would be your 'value for money' price point to pay to play 18-holes at RCD on a mid summer midweek morning?
£175? £150? £125? £100? £75? £50? Less?
Atb
200 lbs for RCD, ranked #1 is an absolute steal, given what most would pay to play the course ranked right behind it ;) ;D [size=78%].[/size]
Someone spends thousands to cross the pond and then balks at $300 to play the #1 course in the world?
Those who live in Ireland and the UK are spoiled by an incredible amount of great 1st and second tier courses. No doubt the BEST value lies in the second tier courses, as well documented on the value for money thread, but value is in the eye of the beholder, especially if he's never played the course and has dreamed of playing it for years.
Lately I avoid nearly all the so called top tier courses, ironically not because of paying the green fee (I'm comped as a PGA)but mainly because if a course is getting such a high fee, the culture and/or hoopla tends to be not my flavor, but I certainly understand why people want to pay the fees to play the courses they've heard of.
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Thousands to cross the pond? You must travel in a way unfamiliar to me ;D. The way I travel, if I paid $300 a pop, in a few days that would be my flight cost. So yes, the green fee makes a big difference to me. Though I spose I could stand to go without five or ten meals :o.
Ciao
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Interesting variety of answers.
Folks in different parts of the world do however, earn different income levels and have different social expectations, which can effect things like your personal idea of value for money and the price point you may be prepared to pay for something, plus if you've saved up for years and travelled a long way on a once in a lifetime trip I can see why you might be prepared to splash the cash. But for UK dwellers paying out of their own pocket (ie no business golf freebee's) the price some of the biggies charge is a big wedge of cash, although you can't blame them for charging it if some are prepared to get their wallet out of their pocket.
Atb
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Thousands to cross the pond? You must travel in a way unfamiliar to me ;D . The way I travel, if I paid $300 a pop, in a few days that would be my flight cost. So yes, the green fee makes a big difference to me. Though I spose I could stand to go without five or ten meals :o .
Ciao
Sean,
You know me. As frugal as they get.
In fact my recent 10 course trip to Ireland was done for under $1700 including $900 in airfare, 6 nights lodging, car, pubs,and meals.
When one "crosses the pond" he doesn't sleep in the streets and walk to the courses without eating, and his green fees aren't comped as mine are, and I would bet he stays in hotels far more expensive than the shared Air B &B's I stay in, and doesn't drive a shared manual transmission car.
So "thousands" to cross the pond and play golf is a conservative estimate, and I'd guess the average Carr golf tourist pays 2-5 times what I pay in total on a 10 course excursion.
Ask your UK friends if they'd pay $300 to play Augusta, Shinny, or Pine Valley(both ranked behind RCD) without a member invite on a golf trip to America where they've already spent "thousands".
NO ONE is suggesting you pay $300 a pop every round and match what ultimately is only a small-medium component of your travel budget (airfare).
Unless there are multiple $300 courses ranked number one in the world near RCD, it wouldn't be a consideration anyway ;D ;D
I am suggesting that one paying $300 for a one time play of the TOP RANKED course in GD's rankings would be good value for someone who's never played it compared to other courses on the list in the grand scheme of the real cost playing a distant course in a foreign country, especially paired with a series of other nearby courses(think Donegal) which would bring the average green fee down close to $70-80 per round.
To be fair, once one has played RCD, or any other great UK/Ireland course, there are many other courses that present better value(to you and I) in those areas, but who can put a price on never playing a course you've dreamed of playing, especially when you've already spent considerable $ to be there.
Besides with your Socialistic tendencies re practice and handicaps, you could win it back anyway once you returned to form ;D which I guess would be a nice splash of capitalism. ;)
Which reminds me per the other thread, the ultimate ticket for Socialism and God on your side would be a Sanders/Huckabee ticket ;)
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Jeff
Well, if you are putting yourself in the hands of an expensive travel agent then yes, paying $1500 a week for green fees on $5000 trip is not the end of the world. However, I suggest that that sort of costing for a week is very expensive and not the sort of thing most golfers would entertain. You hang out in an uber rich area so perhaps your touch stone is wharped 8) I am assuming guys are going on a golf holiday...so many of the costs are similar no matter where one goes. Again, if a guy wants to drop $250 a night on hotels he is likely doing that no matter where he goes. Flights and green fees are two big stand out items which can be better controlled and saving $700 in fees over week is significant for many, many golf tourists.
I don't know about my friends, but I would drop everything if invited to Augusta National...I would have to find a way to make it work. I can't say that for any other course, though I would stump up for Pine Valley and National to name a few expensive places....and for a return to Merion. Some courses are worth more to me than others. So sure, I can understand folks paying $300 for Co Down...I mean enough do don't they? But that sort pf price is not working on me for Co Down.
Ciao
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Jeff, does Tom H know you're proposing him for the veep slot?
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Jeff
Well, if you are putting yourself in the hands of an expensive travel agent then yes, paying $1500 a week for green fees on $5000 trip is not the end of the world. However, I suggest that that sort of costing for a week is very expensive and not the sort of thing most golfers would entertain. You hang out in an uber rich area so perhaps your touch stone is wharped 8) I am assuming guys are going on a golf holiday...so many of the costs are similar no matter where one goes. Again, if a guy wants to drop $250 a night on hotels he is likely doing that no matter where he goes. Flights and green fees are two big stand out items which can be better controlled and saving $700 in fees over week is significant for many, many golf tourists.
I don't know about my friends, but I would drop everything if invited to Augusta National...I would have to find a way to make it work. I can't say that for any other course, though I would stump up for Pine Valley and National to name a few expensive places....and for a return to Merion. Some courses are worth more to me than others. So sure, I can understand folks paying $300 for Co Down...I mean enough do don't they? But that sort pf price is not working on me for Co Down.
Ciao
Sean,
because you've PLAYED RCD! and have so many great choices!
Otherwise you would drop everything for it.
Of course it doesn't work for you or me.
But for a punter from nearly anywhere he would plunk down that in a heartbeat-especially compared to Pebble (ranked below it) at $500.
With what I see punters pay for wine and dinner, I would think $300 to play #1 in the world for something they are passionate about, a steal-especially given the unavailability of the courses ranked 2-4
Conversely, I would never pay $300 for a dinner, even for 2, though that's about the going rate out here, in London, or New York.
I grew up in Augusta and jumped the fence many a time so I might not find value in the going rate (about $10000) before that member got busted :)
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Jeff
No, I wouldn't drop everything for RCD even if I hadn't played it. I still haven't played Kingsbarns (which I really want to see) simply because of the cost. Just because its there and wonderful doesn't mean I will jump on it. I ain't ever going to pay full whack for Pebble and thats fine...it just doesn't interest me that much. Heck, I absolutely think Formby is awesome (top 20 GB&I for me) and I like it more than Co Down, but there ain't no way I am paying full whack.
I also think a lot punters would not pay £200 for Co Down.
Ciao
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Jeff
No, I wouldn't drop everything for RCD even if I hadn't played it. I still haven't played Kingsbarns (which I really want to see) simply because of the cost. Just because its there and wonderful doesn't mean I will jump on it. I ain't ever going to pay full whack for Pebble and thats fine...it just doesn't interest me that much. Heck, I absolutely think Formby is awesome (top 20 GB&I for me) and I like it more than Co Down, but there ain't no way I am paying full whack.
I also think a lot punters would not pay £200 for Co Down.
Ciao
i agree with all of the above.Ironically I haven't played RCD in years as its a bit stuffy for me.
Just remember you have options to play these courses during discount periods, and you live near enough where you know it's not a once in a lifetime opportunity.
the tourist traveling during (hopefully ;) )good weather season has to pay rack rates.
No American has ever heard of Formby so of course they wouldn't pay $300.
RCD is #1 IN THE WORLD on GD's list-that is value compared to what one would pay to notch his belt on any other course in the top 2-10.
Even if it was available-which it isn't without being with a member.
I read posters regularly stating they stay at The Slieve Donard ($241 in peak season for a double bed) and no doubt another $100 for dinner-throw in caddy and there's another $100.
$300 to play the reason they crossed the ocean (RCD) is good value, even if you and I personally deem it too much $ for US to play.
If I had to pay the $300 I'd eat in a pub , share a room in a B&B, and take a trolley ;)
Then it would be a value package
Me I'll take Portsalon at 40 euro(full price) or $43 (or comp in my case)
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Jeff
Yes, I saw RCD last after the proshop caught on fire and the club was still snooty...made us use a visitors bar. Never been too bothered about going back. Trust me though that I am not getting on a plane to play RCD in the winter ::) on cheap rates ...well, at least I wouldn't organize it ;D I am far more keen to see what Ally does with Strandhill and what happens to the Valley Links.
Ciao
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RCD is number one on one very flawed list. At least my number one has the door number to back it up!
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I find myself perusing the GD list thinking how over rated the Open courses are in the ranking. But on the other hand thinking RCD can't be number one - never held an Open (even though it's way better than the Open courses I have played.) only the best of us are not swayed by these things probably.
In the same vein Formby to my mind is the best course in NW England but again the Open factor sees it put too far down most lists.
The open certainly leads to reduced VFM.
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I find myself perusing the GD list thinking how over rated the Open courses are in the ranking. But on the other hand thinking RCD can't be number one - never held an Open (even though it's way better than the Open courses I have played.) only the best of us are not swayed by these things probably.
In the same vein Formby to my mind is the best course in NW England but again the Open factor sees it put too far down most lists.
The open certainly leads to reduced VFM.
Ryan,
While I conceptually agree with you re The Open inflating the price and ranking of courses, who's to say what value is.
for you and I it may be different, but for someone who wants to report back home to his buds that he played X,Y, and Z Open course and relive that moment every time the Open is staged there, 100-200 pounds is certainly better value than he'd find in the US, especially given that he has little chance of access to the top US Open privates in the US, and at a UG or charity auction rate far higher, and usually in off peak seasons and conditions.
I personally find value in off the path gems, as much for the warm welcome,culture, scenery, and discovery of the club as for the quality of the course itself.
But that's easy to say once one has played the Open courses.(in my case I've only played TOC, Troon, Lytham, Hoylake, Prestwick, Muirfield, Turnberry-though I must say I do want to play RSG)
I will say last year during the Open last year I had a tee time at Carnoustie with my son but at 160 pounds each I opted to cancel. part of that is because I am usually comped, and part of that is because I really wanted to play Forfar-which cost exactly 7 pounds for both of us.
Interestingly, other than TOC, I really don't look to return to any of the Open courses other than to expose my son or another friend. There are just too many fantastic yet to be discovered courses/experiences to be had in the UK and Ireland to que up with the masses and play the Big guns.
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Here's the 'Next 50' follow-up to the previous Top-100 under £100 listing in the UK's National Club Golfer magazine -
......from page 55 on the following link.......
http://html5.nationalclubgolfer.com/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=National%20Club%20Golfer&pubid=d6c7c9df-8c1d-4826-9ddb-9acdbdeace27 (http://html5.nationalclubgolfer.com/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=National%20Club%20Golfer&pubid=d6c7c9df-8c1d-4826-9ddb-9acdbdeace27)
Atb
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Jeff/Sean
Interesting discussion particularly as I'm flying across the Atlantic to play Pebble Beach in a couple of months and haven't yet played RCD. What does that say about me :-\
Niall
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Some of these courses are only average and very expensive (Bovey Castle) wtf is the list about. Bovey Castle must be getting close to the worse value course in the country at £70 not in the best 150? Ladybank at 2 says it all really. Far better would be a top 100 under £40. More Stinchcombe's, Kington's and Painswick's. There are plenty of them around.
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Some of these courses are only average and very expensive (Bovey Castle) wtf is the list about. Bovey Castle must be getting close to the worse value course in the country at £70 not in the best 150? Ladybank at 2 says it all really. Far better would be a top 100 under £40. More Stinchcombe's, Kington's and Painswick's. There are plenty of them around.
Absolutely.
If you look closely at the map that's part of the most recent article, some of the courses on the list don't appear on the map. Says a bit about overall care and credibility IMO.
Atb
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Adrian
I do agree that the fees are too high for some of the courses to be considered good value, but a lot of the courses are good. Coventry and Copt Heath are the only ones I know on that list I would say are average. That said, the conditioning of those courses is outstanding. In my experience, these two blow away most of the high end courses I know in the UK...proving that good maintenance is down to club culture as much as money.
Ciao
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Sean,
an interesting point you raise with which I agree. It shows up a common misconception that quality and VFM are linked. In my experience most of the courses that are really good value for money tend to be at the lower end in the conditioning stakes quality wise though greens should be true rolling at least. What I would say about conditioning is that it is important to play a course a few times at different times of the year and over a few years before saying it is in good condition as many inland UK courses have peaks and troughs throughout the year.
Jon
Jon
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Adrian
I do agree that the fees are too high for some of the courses to be considered good value, but a lot of the courses are good. Coventry and Copt Heath are the only one I know on that list I would say are average. That said, the conditioning of that courses is outstanding...same for Coventry. In my experience, these two blow away most of the high end courses I know in the UK...proving that good maintenance is down to club culture as much as money.
Ciao
What Bovey Castle...good? Those last 6 or 7 holes must be about as bad as it get's. They wanted to change them years ago. Few pretty holes on the front nine but a minger to start with.
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Adrian
I have not seen the "new" Bovey so can't comment. The old version was short on space, but had some good holes using water...and...wait for it...trees....very well.
Ciao