Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Matt_Ward on August 28, 2010, 02:52:07 PM
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Time is too short to go into much detail -- but during my abbreviated visit to the northwest I had the opportunity to play the sensational Wine Valley GC in Walla Walla, WA.
Designed by Dan Hickson the course is truly a MUST play for any person who happens to be nearby or traveling through.
The course was in stellar firm and fast conditions -- better than some of the ones I visited in Bend -- and the property is a joy to behold. I visited the site in late '08 when it was being built and the finished product is a testament to what golf design can and shold be when the right minds are at work.
People rightly rave about Wild Horse and other such courses -- Wime Valley is easily in that league. And I mean easily.
The rolling land -- the sweeping off-site vistas and the true inclusion of such an outstanding array of natural design features made me just shake my head in awe. So much of golf today has lost its bearings -- Wine Valley proves otherwise in a big time way.
I'll opine more on the individual holes and hopefully will even post some pics as well.
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(Hooray for Slag Bandoon! ;D )
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http://winevalleygolfclub.com/
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Matt,
I'm a similar fan of Wine Valley. I know Palouse has gotten a lot of pub, but Wine Valley is a significant step ahead in my mind. I hope Dan get's a lot more projects. He really has a great sense for the game as a playing pro and a club pro.
Cheers, Jeff
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Matt, I'm looking forward to your photos and more commentary. I don't know what your itinerary is, but it would be really fun if you got to go a little further and take a run at Chambers Bay this trip as well.
The crew that designed and built Wine Valley seemed like a really special one of fortunate meetings of personalities, talent and passion. We got to watch much of the development as it progressed. I'd call it one of those GCA.com baby darlings, right from the start. Good people, good product. ;D 8)
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MATT,
I found the bunkering there to be superior.The bunkers were placed to effect different levels of golfers and were aesthectically awesome.A great course for a higher handicapper and a nice setting.I look foward to your pics.One of my favorite courses I have played.
Anthony
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Matt,
I've heard that it is a good course for match play competition. What's your take on that?
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Anthony:
Agree w you 100% -- just a real treat -- anyone within 250 miles needs to make a detour and play it. I played Palouse Ridge last year and liked it -- but WV is more than a few steps ahead.
RJ:
Right on target -- a labor of love indeed. My trip could not take me to CB but I have a few other courses of note that I did play and will opine oln all of them in due time. W V is a real treat and is no less than places like Wild Horse, Rustic Canyon and those at that level.
Posted by: astavrides
Matt,
Are you being compensated by Wine Valley for publicity?
Garland:
W V works whether it's match or stroke play.
The course plays to a par-72 but can be played as a more demanding 70 par with two par-5's as par-4 holes. They just played the NW Open there and the place got rave reviews from all in the field -- they were right on target and most importantly the course has a superintendent who truly understands firm and fast conditions.
astavrides:
I write what I feel -- I was not solicited by the club in anyway. I played the course and simply opined. I have done that for all courses I have ever visited. I have recommended a few courses to consideer raising their profille because of what they provide as quality golf courses. Wine Valley is just a joy to play and with a bit more exposure can easily be rated among the best public courses -- even more so for courses under $100.
Let me say this -- how bout you and any others for that matter head to Walla Walla, WA and see it for themselves. If you think it's even remotely less than what I have said thus far I'll be happy to pay your green fee.
I can tell you this -- my $$ is quite safe from any potential takers.
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I heard one crit." The greens are too difficult". I didn't heed that opinion too much because it was likely based on their poor play. But, I might as well ask about it. Matt, were the greens too undulating at certain speeds? What were the speeds?
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Adam,
At least for someone showing up in August and playing the standard set up, I would say the greens are purrrrfect.
Don't know about what they would do to them for a tournament of players more talented than I.
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I would put Wine Valley in the same category as Rustic Canyon and Sagebrush. All play fast and firm with very tight and large bent grass greens. Rustic Canyon does not have as much elevation change as WV or Sagebrush and for that reason I prefer WV and Sagebrush more, but they all share the same DNA. They are loads of fun to play and beatiful to look at.
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I would put Wine Valley in the same category as Rustic Canyon and Sagebrush. All play fast and firm with very tight and large bent grass greens. Rustic Canyon does not have as much elevation change as WV or Sagebrush and for that reason I prefer WV and Sagebrush more, but they all share the same DNA. They are loads of fun to play and beatiful to look at.
I don't know how much elevation change there is at WV, but the climb from #4 green to #16 tee at Rustic Canyon is a bunch! I'd love to know the actual number for each.
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The elevation change at Rustic Canyon is consistent and gradual. The elevation change at Wine Valley is much more varied. Some holes play up and then down or vice versa. These changes are much less gradual than at Rustic Canyon, so you experience much more elevation change at Wine Valley.
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Adam:
If someone bitches and moans that the greens at WV are over the top -- then they would need to say no less for the greens at Old Macdonald which I also played. There are plenty of pinnable areas at WV and frankly they are a good bit less severe than what you see with Old Macdonald.
Before I played the NW Open was played and the greens were at near 12 stimp speed. They were slightly less than that when I played -- likely around 11 but they did not take away from the course whatsoever in my mind. I wish greens could always be that consistent and true.
Richard:
Good commentrs -- but I see WV ahead of Rustic Canyon -- the topgraphy is more challenmging and WV can easily up the intensity meter in having two par-5 holes played as long par-4 holes if desired. The key for WV is getting a wider audience aware of what is there -- hasrd to imaghine such fine two public courses at two totally different and remote areas of the same state as Old Macdonald and Wine Valley.
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,,,-- hasrd to imaghine such fine two public courses at two totally different and remote areas of the same state as Old Macdonald and Wine Valley.
What state would that be? Orewashingonton?
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Garland:
Forgive me -- but WV is just across the stateline in WA -- if you factor in Bandon being in the SW corner of Oregon and WV being in the far corner of WA and OR it's quite a distance between them. Factually you are right -- but my point on the spread of such distance is still spot on.
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I will try to post some of the pics I took at WV -- the property really does look great -- especially with the contrasts with the native grasses.
What's amazing is that since my last visit to WV -- it happened as the course was being grassed -- the local road (hwy 12) is now a four-lane road and allows for speedy access to the course. When I was there previously it was two lanes.
I was blessed when I played the course -- temps were in the low 70's which is quite unusual for late August and the wind was quite gentle and far from what it had been the day prior during a PING demo day 00 then gusts were a steady 25 mph with gusts upwards to 40 mph.
Generally the prevailing win at WV during summer months is from the west - southwest direction. That means the 1st hole plays into the wind -- especially for the 2nd shot.
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WV is one course that gives you areas to miss.And for the higher handicapper that has to rely on ups and downs for pars it makes the course very playable and enjoyable.Very good design to allow misses.
Anthony
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Garland:
Forgive me -- but WV is just across the stateline in WA -- if you factor in Bandon being in the SW corner of Oregon and WV being in the far corner of WA and OR it's quite a distance between them. Factually you are right -- but my point on the spread of such distance is still spot on.
It's really a long distance because there is no hypotenusal route.
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Garland:
Forgive me -- but WV is just across the stateline in WA -- if you factor in Bandon being in the SW corner of Oregon and WV being in the far corner of WA and OR it's quite a distance between them. Factually you are right -- but my point on the spread of such distance is still spot on.
We'll just have to see if Dan Hixson comes up with something special in remote eastern Oregon to substitute for Wine Valley in your original statement and make it true without having to incorporate the state of Orewashingonton. ;) :o
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Examples of places the architecture gives to miss.
The first hole
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/dscn1228.jpg?t=1283175444)
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/dscn1229.jpg?t=1283175486)
Misses right/long/left.
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/dscn1283.jpg?t=1283175522)
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/dscn1284.jpg?t=1283175573)
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/dscn1290.jpg?t=1283179425)
The long miss.
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/dscn1310.jpg?t=1283179459)
Hole 18.Bail outs short,right and long.
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/dscn1351-1.jpg?t=1283179498)
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/dscn1352.jpg?t=1283179570)
Garland loves this course!!
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/dscn1298-1.jpg?t=1283179606)
Anthony
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Garland thinks it's a great match play course.
;)
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Just open this post and now my screen has shattered, my hair is falling out and what’s left has just turned white – please Guys no more close-ups 8)
Melvyn
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Just open this post and now my screen has shattered, my hair is falling out and what’s left has just turned white – please Guys no more close-ups 8)
Melvyn
A face only a mother could love! ;)
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Adam:
If someone bitches and moans that the greens at WV are over the top -- then they would need to say no less for the greens at Old Macdonald which I also played. There are plenty of pinnable areas at WV and frankly they are a good bit less severe than what you see with Old Macdonald.
Before I played the NW Open was played and the greens were at near 12 stimp speed. They were slightly less than that when I played -- likely around 11 but they did not take away from the course whatsoever in my mind. I wish greens could always be that consistent and true.
Richard:
Good commentrs -- but I see WV ahead of Rustic Canyon -- the topgraphy is more challenmging and WV can easily up the intensity meter in having two par-5 holes played as long par-4 holes if desired. The key for WV is getting a wider audience aware of what is there -- hasrd to imaghine such fine two public courses at two totally different and remote areas of the same state as Old Macdonald and Wine Valley.
SO you favor WV over OM? Are you doing a review of Old Mac anythime soon?
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Jim:
Just to be clear -- Old Macdonald is superior when compared against the likes of Wine Valley but WV is ahead of such places like Rustic Canyon and Wild Horse in my mind. Unfortunately, WV is locared in an area of the USA that few people think superior golf can be found.
Given the limitaitonsd that the folks had in putting WV together they have achieved a superior product and one that offers both high quality golf at a very fair and realistic cost. It's a must play for any person traveling through the immediate area.
Jim, Old Macdonald is a sensational course -- in my mind, it's the best of the lot at Bandon and I say that not because of its newness but because of the sheer diversity of the holes and the way the land just fits each of them so well. I will opine on that layout in a separate threasd.
I'll also do a review of each of the holes at WV. The pics places on the 1st hole do not fully explain the nature of the hole and I'll try to do that when I include each of them shortly.
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WV's 1st hole is 430 yards from the tips. It plays from a slightly elevated tee and descends into a downhillk dog-leg right hole. TYhere are two bunkers -- the nearest one on the right is a 245-yard carry and cleverly the architect has added a snake addition to the rear portion of the bunker -- which you cannot see from the tee -- this extends the carry for those who push the ball a bit to roughly 280 yards. Without question -- one must avoid landing anywhere in this bunker as the likelihood of success in hitting the green from it is quite small.
The bunker on the left side is 340 yards from the back tee placement. Golkfers sho opt for the left side will be rewarded with a full view of the putting surface -- the main issue is that you do add a club or two from that spot to reach the surface. Those hitting down the right side and opting to challenge the bunker on that side can get a favorablle bounce of the ball and have it run out a few more yards. In my tee shot -- I reached the 85-yard plate and had a short wedge shot to the target. However, the right side is more uneven in terms of llies - you also have to hit the green coming across the shallower width of the target. As some of the pic posted by others have shown the area just off the green allows for a range of diffetemt shot situations. Recovery is possibly but not an automatic chip and putt for par by any means. The green is also contoured with a small rise in the front left center are and the green appreciably narrows the further to the right rear you go.
The 1st at WV is an excellent starting hole -- birdie is doable but a fast boget or even worse can happen. The background scenery is also a stunning reminder of its stellar location.
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...In my tee shot -- I reached the 85-yard plate and had a short wedge shot to the target...
Matt,
I measly 345 yards was all you could muster on the opening tee shot?! Pitiful ;)
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Matt -
I am glad we agree on the best at Bandon. But both are in my top 10. I look forward to your review.
As for WV, I hope to get out there next year. The trip I took out west last year was among my favorite trips ever. Unfortunately I was unaware of WV or I would have added a day.
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Matt -
I am glad we agree on the best at Bandon. But both are in my top 10. I look forward to your review.
As for WV, I hope to get out there next year. The trip I took out west last year was among my favorite trips ever. Unfortunately I was unaware of WV or I would have added a day.
That was quite a day you missed! ;D
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Garland -
I heard the stories and wish I could have seen the carnage. Maybe next time.
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George:
It helps to have no wind against you -- and then to have the benefit in having a fairway which is downhill and also including firm turf conditions.
Jim:
I was thoroughly impressed with Old Macdonald and will opine later. WV is a tour de force public layout -- it is prepared correctly and the architecture uses the terrain in a superb fashion. There's ample width for all levels of players and there is enough meat to keep the better player at bay should they not execute flawlessly when called upon.
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WV's 2nd hole is a great counterpoint to the 1st hole.
Instead of going downhill the hole reverses course and heads uphill. The hole turns left but the faiorway shoves balls to the right and it is as smart ploy by the architect that two bunkers are placed inthe area where balls that fade or are pushed can end up. Since WV plays firm and fast it's not too hard for balls hit in that direction can end up there.
There is more room to the left than you might think when standing on the tee. But the visual imagery at the tee says very clearly you don't want to pull a tee shot left and visit the pesky native grasses.
The more daring line down the extreme left side opens up the green which is aboive the fairway for at least one additional club. The green has three distinct parts to it and when placed in the extreme front left section is very challenging -- ditto the extreme rear right side/. For a hole of 390 yards the 2nd is a solid counterpoint to what one faces with the opening hole.
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Matt:
What are the three biggest weaknesses of Wine Valley?
Bart
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Bart:
WV has five par-5 and five par-3 holes. Not all of them are solid -- not to say any of them are weak or poor but having five of each is a tough feat to handle for any architect. Jim Engh is noted for doing this and at times he has done well but not all of his layouts hasve done this successfully.
I believe WV would succeed to an even higher level with a standard formula of four pat-5 holes and four par-3holes -- but make no mistake about it the concept of what is there works well.
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Matt, where does Wine Valley fall on your personal list?
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Matt:
What are the three biggest weaknesses of Wine Valley?
Bart
1) About every other person out there says pardner without knowing that Matt owns the copyright and trademark on it.
2) The stream running through the golf course has no water.
3) Some idiot named Slag Bandoon built a bunker on 16 that Matt fell in and fractured a most personal member.
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Ed:
Good question.
I'd have to say it's on the very short list of public courses I have played that offer a fee under $100 (cart included).
Just the marriage between design and turf conditions allows for the ideal blending of fast and firm conditions. You also have the walkability dimensiion plus the playabilioty dimensions for nearly all levels of handicaps.
WV is playable but it doesn't give away the store -- even for top players,
No disrespect to the likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon and others of that ilk -- but WV is ahead of that class. Dan H did a fantastic job in using the existing terrain to create a range of fun holes -- complimented by green sites that are very fair but truly demanding given their pitch and overall speed.
Ed, WV is a must play for any golf design lover -- simple as rthat.
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Agree on Matt's assessment. If you've never been to Sand Hills, visit Wine Valley. It's built in tribute to Sand Hills (the owner is a SH charter member and Dick Youngscap's college roommate) and Hixson did a damn fine job despite Slag's botched bunker work ;)
JC
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Ed:
Good question.
Matt, I'm glad my question was a good one. Unfortunately, you didn't answer it. I didn't ask how Wine Valley compares to other public courses under $100 including cart. Rather, I asked where it ranks on your personal list of courses played. Top 50? Top 100? Top 200? Top 500?
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Bart:
WV has five par-5 and five par-3 holes. Not all of them are solid -- not to say any of them are weak or poor but having five of each is a tough feat to handle for any architect. Jim Engh is noted for doing this and at times he has done well but not all of his layouts hasve done this successfully.
I believe WV would succeed to an even higher level with a standard formula of four pat-5 holes and four par-3holes -- but make no mistake about it the concept of what is there works well.
Yeah Matt:
You didn't answer my question either. I asked you to give 3 weaknesses of Wine Valley and you only gave me one.
Bart
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The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.
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Is it better than Pound Ridge?
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Jeff, perhaps you should start a thread on worst golf course names ever. :)
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MATT,
WHERE ARE THE PICTURES?
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The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.
Nearby? Seattle - Walla Walla per Google Maps, 273 miles 4 hrs 32 min. You are excused, that's a pretty good trek.
I am hoping to get there next summer........
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The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.
Nearby? Seattle - Walla Walla per Google Maps, 273 miles 4 hrs 32 min. You are excused, that's a pretty good trek.
I am hoping to get there next summer........
Close enough so that I feel like I should have played it, but I am never over there...Wine Valley...Some Day.
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Leary only hits privates... :)
Here are some pic to tie you over for a little while...
Hole #1:
(http://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pp4hrFvKnQKv3qE-lhZO6FamcWMWN8Feyl-G8lYowdKyLJiELQ7NCx9h4Vs5fRHT3K-xd5npJREJ8uQhqv4vABQ/Wine%20Valley%20-%20Hole%2001%20-%20F%20-%20Fairway%20to%20Green.jpg)
Hole #2:
(http://p26ujw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p1E1g_rd0ArKuFLblVgyrOk7nMF8LHXUoe1N7ntrgQqS0fRCXJ4ukFyeQCmqeUX7sYi9xQ05MbPxcx2EE3iNRKZzqRaXpqPPE/Wine%20Valley%20-%20Hole%2002%20-%20A%20-%20From%20Tee.jpg)
Hole #4:
(http://p26ujw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pMzGB65Xq29TNbuBttX-WEhW_MqZXGQECRUMJYdFlXp_9fUV--YZxOdyAk7ing2rC0V7VSjVvsfnnMTnCykRLNDGhDhAQfwfd/Wine%20Valley%20-%20Hole%2004%20-%20A%20-%20From%20Tee.jpg)
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The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.
I don't understand this one--where I come from, the name "Wine Valley" is an inducement, not a deterrent.
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Tim,
Maybe. To me it sounds kind of corny....of course I didn't initially like the name Old Mac either but it has grown on me.
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Ed:
I have to think about that answer with a bit more thought. My overall top 50 and trop 100 listing (worldwide) is a tough one with so many outstanding courses. I simply answered with a quick reply that when held against other public courses where costs are capped at a max of $100 -- WV is on the very, very short list of superior plays. For many people as Jonathan C mentioned -- WV will be the closest they will get to a Sand Hills experience. They will not be cheated.
Ed, give me a day or two to answer your question -- sorry for the dodge ball initial reply it was not intentional.
I believe WV can safely make a top 200 listing.
Jeff L:
Yes, WV is infinitely better than Pound Ridge in my mind. WV evokes fun and passion -- PR, on the other hand, inflicts incessant pain for those who don't carry the name of Fred Funk for total straightness off the tee.
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Garland:
Hold your horses -- been traveling and have not had much time to post. By the way -- maybe you or someone else can post the manner by which pics can be posted -- I'm slightly rusty on that front.
Bart:
Yes, you asked for three weaknesses -- let's just say I can count two of them -- one too many par-5 holes and one too many par-3 holes. I'll have to think a bit more for a 3rd weakness -- the course is THAT good and whatever ones there are certainly do not leap off the page as obvious.
Sean:
The name works for me given where the course is located and what is the dominant theme for the overall area.
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WV's 3rd hole is a gambling downhill / tumbling par-5 hole -- plays 575 yards from the tips -- 535 from the next set of markers.
The tee shot is usually into the prevailing wind -- although it was not an issue when I played the hole.
There are two center-placed fairway bunkers on the hole -- the first requires a carry of 260 yards -- the 2nd a carry of 305 yards. One can play to the side of both -- those opting for the more daring left side can get a slight turbo boost and an oportunity to go for the green in two blows. Those staying to the right of the bunkers will need to play the hole in three shots.
There is a oond which jealously guards the left side of the hole -- any shot pulled can easily reach the water -- especially for those who want to give the green a try with their 2nd shot. There are 3 otrher bunkers which can come into play for 2nd shots -- two hugging close to the pond and one to the far right for any person who blocks the shot too far in that direction.
The green is another winner at WV -- goes from wide in front to more narrow in the rear -- there atre falloffs in different places so you need to judge with precision where to land the ball. A possible birdie hole but not without flawless execution.
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Matt,
Just go the #21 on this thread and push the quote button. You will have clear examples of how to post pictures. All you need is the URL of the picture where it has been loaded on the web (such as at photobucket) which you can then fill in the fashion shown in #21.
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The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.
Which would you rather visit? A wine valley, or a prairie? IMHO Prairie Club doesn't cut it for attracting attention. You can cross a continental divide in the prairie and have no idea one could possibly be in sight, with over 30 miles of visibility in all directions.
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The name Wine Valley probably doesn't help from a national marketing perspective. Haven't made it there myself yet and I live nearby.
Which would you rather visit? A wine valley, or a prairie? IMHO Prairie Club doesn't cut it for attracting attention. You can cross a continental divide in the prairie and have no idea one could possibly be in sight, with over 30 miles of visibility in all directions.
Again, to me, it just sounds a bit cheesy. Plus it is one letter off from Pine Valley, so it just isn't my cup of tea.
Besides, it isn't private so I have no interest in playing it. ;)
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Sean, forget the cheesy name and get your beer drinking ass over to Walla Walla (so nice they named it twice) and play the track. It is a huge treat. It certainly lives up to the praise Matt and others have given it.
After the round, take in the wine scene and visit a few tasting rooms. Pepper Bridge will blow your socks off and Seven Rivers has a three hole course you can play while drinking. You will become cultured. ;D
In fact as I think of it, if they lifted the Wine Valley course, made it private and placed it somewhere around Napa, they would have a waiting list to join long as your arm.
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Gents:
One of the more "wow" moments you have at WV is during a fabulous sunset as you sit on the rear veranda and observe all its glory.
Those seeking where and in what manner public golf needs to go should head to WV. I may have said this earlier -- but hatfs off to the course superintendent for the stellatr firm and fast conditions. Shotmaking and execution at a high level is certainly required and rewarded when carried out.
*****
WV's 4th hole -- 390 yards from the tips -- is another example of strategic thinking beginning at the tee. The hole plays slightl;y uphill and turns ever so gently to the left -- Playing down the right side opens up the entire green -- small problem is avoiding a well-placed bunker that hugs the right-center side of the fairway. It's not large -- but ever so pesky. Going down the left side avoids the aformentioned bunker but then you must hit your approach over one of the largest bunkers faced at WV. The green is diaginally placed so going left only leaves you a far smaller target to land your approach. The hole is another example that mega length alone doesn't result in a sure-fire birdie.
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Matt:
You have still not answered where you would rank this course among those you have played.
Bart
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Matt:
You have still not answered where you would rank this course among those you have played.
Bart
Actually I think he said "Top 200."
Which is pretty good for a guy with Matt's resume.
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Matt:
You have still not answered where you would rank this course among those you have played.
Bart
Actually I think he said "Top 200."
Which is pretty good for a guy with Matt's resume.
Bill:
If the course is only TOP 200, why can't he identify more than one weakness. Courses that are Doak 10s still have weaknesses. "One too many par 3s and one too many par 5s" is shameful analysis...give me a break.
Bart
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Matt:
You have still not answered where you would rank this course among those you have played.
Bart
Actually I think he said "Top 200."
Which is pretty good for a guy with Matt's resume.
Bill:
If the course is only TOP 200, why can't he identify more than one weakness. Courses that are Doak 10s still have weaknesses. "One too many par 3s and one too many par 5s" is shameful analysis...give me a break.
Bart
How would I know, I am NOT Matt! But I do remember him saying WV would be in his Top 200.
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For those who have played a lot of other courses in Washington as well as Wine Valley, is WV the best piece of land occupied by a golf course, both for terrain and soils? I know that is subjective. My best comparable is Royal Oaks, and that is too clayey.
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WV is in my top five of "fun" courses.
Anthony
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Bart:
You ask for a definitive answer and given the amount and range of courses I have ever played that takes some digesting. I don't want to simply spit out a number -- lgeeze, it's the 154th best ! -- I want to think that one over. On the public side where courses can only charge a max of $100 Wine Valley is among my personal top five. Just a real good layout and one that gives public players an option of immense fun and challenge. Allow me a bit of time to ansser you in more certain terms.
Bart, one other trhig -- you say "shameful analysis" -- OK fair enough for you. I've played the place and I said that courses -- including WV -- which go the route of five par-5 andf five par-3 holes often run the risk in having holes that are inferior or less than what the better ones are. WV has that situation and I think the course would have been better served with a mofre traditional xi of no more than four par-3 and four par-5 holes.
Before you bark about my "shameful analysis" just play the course yourself and let me know what you think.. There are others on this site who have opined on the course and I went there to see if all the chatter were true or even close to it. The course exceeded my expectations.
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WV's 5th hole plays 475 yards. You tee from a slightly elevated area and the hole turns ever so gradually to the left. The dieal drive is down the left side but there is a long bunker that follows that side. Just tug it left a hair and you find it. The best part of the hole is the green complex. Here you have a slight dip in the middle section with the front and back third being slightly higher. Missing to the side of the green with your approach leaves a tough recovery. I was fortunate to have played the hole when the prevailing wind into your face was nearly non-existent. The green is also narrow and deep and therefore club selection is critical -- being too far from the hole after your approach invites a likely bogey or more.
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Where are the pictures Matt?
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Garland:
Ease off partner -- I had a photographer with me and they are on another assignment now -- will be posted shortly. Trust me -- ;D
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WV's 6th hole plays 210 yards and is a par-3. The hole generally plays downwind -- althoiugh calm air was present when I played it. The teeing area is enormous and the pin placement can be placed in the far corners to correspond to the length of the shot you play.
The green is divided into two sections and while balls can bounce into the green from the left side -- but anything that hits ont he corners will likely have the chipping areas repel them and send them farther away making for a very challenging recovery. The 6th is a not a great hole and is one of the weaker ones when all the par-3 holes are considered together but it requires the right club selection to have a go at a birdie try.
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Wine Valley a bad name?
- Andrew Will
- Abeja
- Cayuse
- Leonetti
and so on and so forth - yeah, a couple of these are not open but you can find their juice in the town.
Wine Valley = heavily name for course in the wine country for any grape slut - mmm
Still need to get out there - for the golf . . . and other . . . stuff.
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Rob:
WV does offer the golf side and the immediate vicinity does offer some interesting wine tasting options as well.
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Wine Valley a bad name?
- Andrew Will
- Abeja
- Cayuse
- Leonetti
and so on and so forth - yeah, a couple of these are not open but you can find their juice in the town.
Wine Valley = heavenly name for course in the wine country for any grape slut - mmm
Still need to get out there - for the golf . . . and other . . . stuff.
Meant "heavenly" not "heavily" - and hit quote instead of modify.
36 at Wine Valley is ample calories burned for a fine meal and a few taste of a great cab or blend from the region.
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WV's 7th hole is 625 yards and the tee shot starts with a challenge -- trying to favor the right side to get the best angle to the distant green.
The players are best advised to keep your ball down the right side because the green complex is one of WV's best. The green is heavily contoured and pitched from the left side and any ball finishing up after the 2nd shot on that side will be challenged to get somewhere near rthe pin when it's placed closer to that respective side. An easy bogey hole but one that will be quite miserly on the birdie give aways.
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Matt W.
How about some critical analysis? Your descriptions read like the website; that is, very fluffy descriptions, e.g., "...being too far from the hole after your approach invites a likely bogey or more, " or "There is a oond [sic] which jealously guards the left side of the hole."
For those of us who have not been there, please try to provide us a good reason to do so. Don't try to sell us a membership with trite advertising gimicks aimed at people who have never seen a golf course before (which again, is how your words read from time to time). Instead, engage us in an actual discussion about the holes.
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Steve:
There is no fluff -- the course is THAT good. I'm sorry if for some reason you believe one has to be "some critical analysis." Steve, do you wish for me to simply say things about specific holes and shots that are not true.
WV is beyond likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon -- I have said that before and I have tried (likely not to your satisfaction) in trying to explain that. The course plays firm and fast and has exceptional stragtegic challenges from each tee box and the green designs are very well done -- contoured to accept only the best of shots.
You ask me to "provide us a good reason to do so." I think I have done that and will try to add a bit more detail.
WV is very flexible for all types of players. The firm and fast conditions were a joy to see because it then opens up the door to a range of execution options. The ground game does have a clear and important role when playing the course. I am not here to "sell us a membership with trite advertising gimmicks ..." -- please Steve I don't try to be glowing about courses unless they have something to offer.
WV is very affordable -- and likely it will be a course that many may not be able to play because it's location in Walla Walla doesn't make it so easy to get to when traveling.
I can add more comments as needed but I see the course as a true testament to what people can do in providing firsdt rate golf. If you think that's cheap promotion then you should go there and play it for yourself. Plenty of people have already played it and commented about the course -- if you notice their comments and size them up against mine you will see a certain commonality about why playing there is so very special. Hope this helps your understanding.
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Steve,
What he writes sounds like he is reading off the scorecard. He has no pictures. I don't believe he even played the place. Probably visited all the wineries and dropped by looked at the first hole and picked up the scorecard, maybe a yardage book.
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Garland:
Do yourself a huge favor -- before you glue your foot in your mouth -- contact the club directly and speak to Elijah -- the assistant pro there. Met him when I came to the course and he's a first rate guy. I had a photographer with me -- which he will attest -- and once she finishes her current assignment will post some photos. Played all 18 holes and even re-visited a few of the holes before leaving.
An apology is clearly warranted on your part. I assume you have some class to understand how utterly foolish you are with such ignorant blather on your part.
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Garland:
Do yourself a huge favor -- before you glue your foot in your mouth -- contact the club directly and speak to Elijah -- the assistant pro there. Met him when I came to the course and he's a first rate guy. I had a photographer with me -- which he will attest -- and once she finishes her current assignment will post some photos. Played all 18 holes and even re-visited a few of the holes before leaving.
An apology is clearly warranted on your part. I assume you have some class to understand how utterly foolish you are with such ignorant blather on your part.
Actually Matt, I think the shoe is on the other foot. Write something that doesn't sound like it came right off the score card, and get the promised pictures up here. Then, I might change what I believe. I certainly have no apologies for what I believe. However, your bombastic "utterly foolish" and "ignorant blather" is not what some would consider the best in taste.
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Garland:
You stated in clear terms -- that I was not at WV and did not play the course.
This is what you ignotantly and erroneously posted ...
" I don't believe he even played the place. Probably visited all the wineries and dropped by looked at the first hole and picked up the scorecard, maybe a yardage book."
"What you believe" is wrong.
I played the course and the photographer who came with me is on another assignment and will be glad to post the various pics taken.
I don't opine personally on courses I have never played. I really liked the course and see it at the very top realm of courses the general public can play for less than $100.
You stated that I have not played the course. THAT IS WRONG ON YOUR PART. Show some class as a gentleman and take the high road with a clear apology. End of story.
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Matt,
You seem to need to learn the English language, unless of course you are God. I think you need to apologize for calling me a liar. I told you what I believe. You replied that I posted erroneously. Unless you somehow are omniscient and know better than I do what I believe, then you are calling me a liar.
What I believe may be wrong from time to time, but I have seen no evidence other than your insulting replies that my belief system is wrong.
As they say, put up or shut up.
I await your alleged pictures. I doubt your writing will improve at Steve's and my urging.
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Why oh why must we have these posts that are clearly antangonistic, confrontational and bickersome? Frank commentary is not synonomous for personalized and pointed chiding of people's writing style, nor mobbing on a personality parade of cliques where certain posters pile on to criticize individuals they don't like, for whatever reasons.
This may be impolitic to say, and it may further the confrontation unintendedly by me, but it is an ever present 800 pound gorilla in the room when ever certain posters offer up their thoughts. Ive seen it with Jay Flemma being lambasted on his prose, and this seems the same to me where folks are criticizing Matt for his naratives on the play of each hole at Wine Valley. Let's be fair gentlemen. If Matt says something on his narrative of a particular hole, and its design characteristics, and you have played it and think otherwise, then by all means be frank and comment. But, to say his narrative sounds like a scorecard description, and all the other lambasting, subtle or obvious, is getting old, and continues to detract from what this DG should be all about.
Matt, please continue, and the one criticism I would have to support the other side of this back and forth, is to add the photos with the narrative, or wait until the photos are in to start of the hole-by-hole. But, from what I've read by Matt so far, I'm trying to figure out a way and time when I can get out thee to see Wine Valley. Better than Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon is a tall order in my book. But, from the photos I have seen, and the challenge by Matt, I am very open minded and anxious to see for myself. It may very well be so...
Please don't be discouraged to continue Matt, with a few photos when possible.
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There is no fluff -- the course is THAT good. I'm sorry if for some reason you believe one has to be "some critical analysis." Steve, do you wish for me to simply say things about specific holes and shots that are not true.
WV is beyond likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon -- I have said that before and I have tried (likely not to your satisfaction) in trying to explain that. The course plays firm and fast and has exceptional stragtegic challenges from each tee box and the green designs are very well done -- contoured to accept only the best of shots.
Matt,
I am not suggesting that you are saying, or will say, things about the course that are not true, or even that the course itself is "fluff." I am, however, suggesting that your description is "fluff." For someone who is as well traveled as you say you are, and as knowledgeable about good and bad courses as you claim to be, I would expect a larger vocabulary to describe the place, and less of a reliance on catch phrases. Comments about "firm and fast" or "exceptional stragtegic [sic] challenges" are far too broad, and hardly befitting of the praise you assign to the golf course. For example, I know of a municipal golf course in my area that is low on design merit, though remarkably firm and fast, but that is because they are short on funds and I don't think they have aerified the place in 2-3 years; just being firm and fast is not a strong enough argument.
Ultimately, I wouldn't plan a trip out there just because Matt Ward, or anyone else says it is a good place (except of course, for my brother, whose tastes I trust implicitly). The relative quality of the golf courses you have played does not necessarily mean that your opinion of a given golf course is worthy of being heeded. However, if you present a good, reasoned argument about the quality of given facility, without peppering it with catch phrases that have been used in advertising materials for over one hundred years (and which, not coincidentally, exist on the hole-by-hole descriptions on the Wine Valley website), then your recommendation gains merit
I would honestly love to hear more about the course, and so I do hope you continue the "tour," but I also hope that it is done so in a more telling manner.
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Steve, in your further discussion with Matt, it is interesting how you also have that tag quote from Descartes. But, when it comes to well worn descriptions and narratives on golf design, I'm not sure most any original things are left to be said or phrases used that haven't been used already in marketting, or prolific golf design/architecture writers. Can you give examples of narratives on hole by hole, or general course descriptions that you don't find somewhat repetitive if not trite? I mean really... should we try to substitute the terms like 'firm and fast' with something like repelling or or rebounding and rapid and hyper reactive to inertia? How many ways are there to say something compelling about GCA that haven't been said?
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Matt, you took a photographer with you? That sounds more like business than pleasure.
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Steve, in your further discussion with Matt, it is interesting how you also have that tag quote from Descartes. But, when it comes to well worn descriptions and narratives on golf design, I'm not sure most any original things are left to be said or phrases used that haven't been used already in marketting, or prolific golf design/architecture writers. Can you give examples of narratives on hole by hole, or general course descriptions that you don't find somewhat repetitive if not trite? I mean really... should we try to substitute the terms like 'firm and fast' with something like repelling or or rebounding and rapid and hyper reactive to inertia? How many ways are there to say something compelling about GCA that haven't been said?
Granted, I can't think of anything right now that could replace these otherwise over-used expressions.
But I suppose my real concern is that, at some point, it all starts to sound the same. If everyone is using the same written and/or verbal vocabulary, then no one course separates itself from another, at least by way of description. The differences obviously reveal themselves on the ground (Wine Valley is different from Riviera, is different from Crooked Stick, and so forth), but that cannot be known without a visit. But here, his goal seems to be to convince people that a trip to Wine Valley is worthwhile. However, short of trusting the recommendation of a complete stranger, whose experiences are distinct from my own--and whose preferences for "good" or "bad" golf may be entirely dichotomous--and, moreover, if virtually every golf course has similarly worded hole-by-hole descriptions, I have no real understanding of the various strategic challenges I might encounter on a visit to Wine Valley or otherwise. If I have played golf courses who use similar terminology, but have been disappointing to me upon visiting and playing them, then, lacking any more convincing description, I have little reason to to believe that this course is any better or different than those.
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I guess I'm just not seeing your point Steve. I didn't catch whether you had actually played WV or not. But, using the following random selected hole desc., above by Matt, could you tell me or explain to us, what is lacking in the narrative of the hole?
WV's 4th hole -- 390 yards from the tips -- is another example of strategic thinking beginning at the tee. The hole plays slightl;y uphill and turns ever so gently to the left -- Playing down the right side opens up the entire green -- small problem is avoiding a well-placed bunker that hugs the right-center side of the fairway. It's not large -- but ever so pesky. Going down the left side avoids the aformentioned bunker but then you must hit your approach over one of the largest bunkers faced at WV. The green is diaginally placed so going left only leaves you a far smaller target to land your approach. The hole is another example that mega length alone doesn't result in a sure-fire birdie.
The only thing that would definitely aid me in this would be a photo of the tee ball, the LZ, and the green. The narrative is in the vernacular of a golfer. Does it need more metaphorical, allegorical, or analogical writing devices? Jay Flemma uses heavy metaphors and a writing style that fits his literary studies. Yet, I think he gets criticized for using that too heavily. Not everyone is Bernard Darwin, or HWW. Style is one thing, but I don't think that style must take precidence over using the conventional vernacular to get to the substance in describing the architecture found, as Matt is doing in his hole by hole examples.
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RJ:
Be happy to oblige on the photo side of things when they become available.
Suffice to say if you go to Wine Valley I believe you will love it given your deep personal feelings for Wild Horse and other courses of that ilk.
WV is set-up so well for the firm and fast conditions that people want so much to enjoy. The superintendent, who I had the great fortune in meeting and was present late in the day checking the greens when I was there, understands thoroughly how a modern "links" (I use that word in the most favorable way) can be accomplished here in the States even if the address is Walla Walla and not Ireland or Scotland.
RJ, the great thing about WV is that although it sports a 75+ course rating from the tips -- the slope from the back tees is very reasonable 130. That means the course provides a great amount of elasticity so that the average player can get around the course without being bombarded by inane forced carries or unreasonably narrow fairways that will result in lost balls or other such delays / frustrations. I really enjoyed Palouse Ridge in Pullman but WV is at minimum a good two to three steps ahead of it in my mind. The fees charged are very reasonable and the best time to play the course may be in the late afternoon as the sun slowly descends and you see the magnificent sunsets and the panorama of colors it provides.
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Ed:
Yes, business was the primary reason.
Steve:
I read your comments and understand your point.
No amount of words that I provide can make up for the fact that I have played the course and likely you have not. Is it worth the visit? I'd say 100% yes indeed. I believe my background in visiting plenty of courses throughout the USA gives me some insights into my what constitutes a superior play. Do you think I say WV is superior to Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon as empty hyperbole? All I can say is for you to see the other comments made by those who have played there.
I will add photos when time allows and add addiditonal commentary as well.
And, I will try to add info in a more "telling manner." Be patient and judge me for what additional info I will provide.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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RJ,
Here are some pictures and the hole schematics at the golf club website; http://www.winevalleygolfclub.com/golf-gallery.
Grudge match thread, for a comparison. http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40942.0/
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Gents:
The par-3 8th hole at WV plays roughly 225 yards but is a bit shorter -- the green is set up a slight angle from the tee shot and it requires careful though as to where the pin is located. A solitary bunker hugs the right side and you can use the hill on the left side to bounce balls into the target. I played with little wind -- I am told it generally is behind the player. There are several internal contours and while they are not major obstacles it pays to be within 30 feet of the hole to have a reasonable effort without too much internal movement.
The par-3 holes at WV give the player a fairly ordinary appearance in many ways but they do require approaches to use the existing land contours so you can bounce the ball into the areas when provided for.
No doubt budget plays a role but fortunately Wine Valley is blessed with a site that provides quality rolling property and the holes seem to fit quite naturally where they do.
The 8th provides an e-z appearance and is very dioable for the higher handicap player -- it just doesn't provide the lower handicap player with a sure fire birdie hole by any means.
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I was asked previously about any weaknesses at WV and the one glaring one is that it doesn't have a short par-4 of note. There are some excellent mid-range par-4 holes that are under 400 yards -- but nothing under 350 yards with a range of options.
As I said previously when an architect opts for five par-5 and five par-3 holes -- not only is the challenge to get quality for such an array of holes but you are also left in any such configuration with only eight (8) par-4 holes and trying to get the range and diversity for such holes can be difficult and sometime something can be missed. In the case of WV it's the really solid short par-4 inclusion.
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Matt,
Imagine the back tee markers did not exist on the fourth hole and the hole played between 325-335. Do you think that hole would fit your description of a short par 4 under 350 with multiple options that Wine Valley is missing?
Would you automatically hit driver at the green? Or would you take the easy lay-up left, short of the large bunker, leaving a tougher, longer approach over the big pit withthe angle of the green making it kind of shallow (and hard to see)? Or, would you try to carry the small center bunker and fit the shot into the narrowing fairway with a long iron/hybrid/three wood leaving yourself a little sand wedge in with the green opening up to you and visible?
Curious how you would play this shortened version of the hole.
To me this is a great example of a hole where adding yardage is detrimental to the actual golf holes design and where card and pencil/scorecard yardage mentality gets in the way of good golf. What do you and others that have played it think?
PS- I think 7 is a better hole from the next tee up also- way more options and way better looking hole from there too- as the bunkers were created to visually connect from that spot-had no idea another tee would ever be added.
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This was a larger than usual summer love fest tour out west for Matt.
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Gents:
The par-3 8th hole at WV plays roughly 225 yards but is a bit shorter -- the green is set up a slight angle from the tee shot and it requires careful though as to where the pin is located. A solitary bunker hugs the right side and you can use the hill on the left side to bounce balls into the target. I played with little wind -- I am told it generally is behind the player. There are several internal contours and while they are not major obstacles it pays to be within 30 feet of the hole to have a reasonable effort without too much internal movement.
The par-3 holes at WV give the player a fairly ordinary appearance in many ways but they do require approaches to use the existing land contours so you can bounce the ball into the areas when provided for.
No doubt budget plays a role but fortunately Wine Valley is blessed with a site that provides quality rolling property and the holes seem to fit quite naturally where they do.
The 8th provides an e-z appearance and is very dioable for the higher handicap player -- it just doesn't provide the lower handicap player with a sure fire birdie hole by any means.
You mean you don't routinely birdie 225 yard par 3's? I am shocked............
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Matt W.
How about some critical analysis . . . engage us in an actual discussion about the holes.
Steve -
I find this to be a strange request. Matt Ward provides more detailed strategic analyses of more golf holes than anyone else on this site, by a mile.
I admit that it took me a while to come around to his insane prose style, with its hyperbole, mixed metaphors, braggadocio, and generalized logorrhea. But if you scratch the gonzo veneer, you will find plenty of intelligent analysis.
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You know Matt, pictures are digital these days. Your photographer could just email them to you so you can post them.
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Garland, I'd say they'll need to appear in whatever she was commissioned to shoot them for before they can be published elsewhere.
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You know Matt, pictures are digital these days.
Not real ones, Garland.
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You know Matt, pictures are digital these days.
Not real ones, Garland.
That might be news to Aidan.
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Tiger:
You say "love fest" -- OK , but consider the quality of courses played -- I didn't mention the turkeys I played (just yet).
kyegoalby:
True, the 4th can be pushed up with its tee boxes. But I try to look at how the architect views the hole from his original conception -- the 4th is set for 390 yards. Let me point out that other holes at Wine Valley can be changed too. The uphill 14th can be pushed just a bit up and play as a long par-4 -- ditto the 18th which can be played a good bit shorter to do that. All of these "moves" are manipulations and while they can add a good bit to the conversation I try to look at the original intent of the architect and judge the course from that perspective. Do not misunderstand me I still see WV as being a gem of a layout -- has nearly the entire package for what the un-affiliated player is seeking.
Bill McBride:
What I meant to say is simply this -- the 8th is among holes at WV that allow the higher handicap the room to breathe without cluttering up the design with a battlefield of items to either fly over or have to escape -- in short, they can be bogeyed and that level of player can also make pars from time to time. The better payer is challenged through the positioning of the greens -- in the 8th's case it's diagonally set-up and the green has plenty of pitch and contour to mandate a first rate approach to have a go at the birdie putt.
Michael Moore:
Thanks -- but you forgot to mention I was allowed away from the rubber room during this recent visit out west. ;D
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oops- removed. Will re-post later
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kyegoalby:
True, the 4th can be pushed up with its tee boxes. But I try to look at how the architect views the hole from his original conception -- the 4th is set for 390 yards. Let me point out that other holes at Wine Valley can be changed too. The uphill 14th can be pushed just a bit up and play as a long par-4 -- ditto the 18th which can be played a good bit shorter to do that. All of these "moves" are manipulations and while they can add a good bit to the conversation I try to look at the original intent of the architect and judge the course from that perspective. Do not misunderstand me I still see WV as being a gem of a layout -- has nearly the entire package for what the un-affiliated player is seeking.
Matt,
Since you try to see the hole from the perspective of how it was conceived, I can promise you the back two sets of tees on the fourth were last second additions prior to seeding at the request of the owners. The hole was absolutely created to be a short (under 350) par four with multiple options-including hitting driver at the green.
The back two sets of tees were added because the owner, a very good player, basically wanted scorecard yardage and there was room to go up the hill (also see post construction addition of back tee on 7) and they had a bit of concern that a potentially driveable hole could create slow play issues.
Since the length of the hole was conceived to be under 350 does your view change and the alluded to weakness of the course go away?
As someone who sounds like a big hitter I would also really like to hear how you think you would play the hole from 330 as opposed to 390?
One other piece of info:
The greens superintendent out there you mentioned is Tyler Daniels, a former golf pro (really good player), who was also on site throughout construction doing just about every possible dirty job (and is a helluva shot with a .22!). I am pretty sure he is still being assisted by another great and talented guy, Chris Borgman, who spent every day on site during construction and his skill and talent was a huge help getting the greens finished to perfection. So, he knows every intricate detail about them - and it sounds like it shows.
Speaking of the greens, I really appreciate your nice comments about them. A lot of people worked very hard to get all elements of them to come together strategically, aesthetically and agronomically. It is nice to hear that being noticed. Thanks
P.S. The other options you mentioned for adjusting holes (15 and 18) were not the original intent- they were meant to play just as you played them.
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kyegoalby:
Thanks for the info and inside perspective.
Too bad the original intent wasn't followed -- the owner could have achieved the needed yardage elsewhere.
Yes, what you provided does help me realize what was being contemplated but was aborted for the reasons you cited.
I like the 350-yard equation -- I would opt for the green if circumstances permitted it. The right side gives you room for the tee ball because anything tugged left is not going to provide a real future for the player. The issue though is does the green provide sufficient contours and different sections that would put pressure on players who cannot manage themselves with their approach. I like what the green is but the key for any potential outstanding short par-4 is to have a challenge both on the tee shot dimension and the green. I don't believe the existing green provides that final elemtn.
Your thoughts ?
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WV's 9th hole plays 455 yards -- slightly uphill.
The hole turns softly to the left with a solitary bunker on that side -- in fact, the bunker is roughly 70 yards in length. It appears you have all the room to the right and that is where the architect is baiting the player. The more right you go the more daunting the approach. H20 guards much of the right side of the green with another bunker also thrown into the mix. The close to the left you hit the tee shot the better the approach angle.
Even after doing that -- should the pin be in the right corner the best play is hit to the center of the green. The putt is far from automatic but it avoids putting DB or even worse on the card.
A solid closer to the out bound nine.
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Not a big fan of the 9th hole. The large pond is out of characteristic with the rest of the course. There is also a small ridge you have to carry off the drive and if you fail to carry it, you have no idea that the shot that you just hit which you thought was pretty good is now wet.
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Richard:
Nothing wrong in having detention ponds on any course. If people can rave about County Down and it has the most out of place water hazard one can imagine at the 17th there -- the 9th is fine.
Tough par-4 holes rarely get much love.
Be curious to know your favorite hole at the course and given that you have played Chambers Bay how would you assess the two side-to-side.
Gents:
Just to let people know because I was asked this several times off line -- peak rates at WV are $75 -- you can walk -- power carts are $30. Still when a cart is shared the overall rate is still less than $100. The reply rate during peak times is $40. A solid deal indeed. Range balls are included.
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I love Wine Valley and I am friends with both Dan Hixson and Slag. I'd never want to hurt their feelings because in the grand scheme of things the course is killer.
But I yearn/yearned for a drivable par 4 out there too.
Even at 350, I don't consider #4 to be that hole. It's slightly uphill. There is a bit of a hump to the side of the bunker to clear. Nor is the green terribly receptive to that type of shot. It repels some low burning approach shots, surely a driver will not stick.
I think of a drivable par 4 to be something in the 300 yd range.
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Michael:
Sometimes the issue boils down to the decision to have five par-5 and five par-3 holes. Sometimes in reducing the amount of par-4 holes in total -- you lose that opportunity to insert a quality short par-4 into the mix.
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Matt, I have posted my thoughts about Chambers and Wine Valley (and Rustic Canyon) on this thread...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40356.0/
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Matt, I have posted my thoughts about Chambers and Wine Valley (and Rustic Canyon) on this thread...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40356.0/
But you aren't exactly rational about Chambers, so it isn't really that helpful.. ;)
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Michael,
Kye wrote the back tee was to be at 330. Apparently, the next back tees would have been in your wheel house at around 300. I believe that's what the white's are today.
Tee it up there. No one is stopping you. That's what Dan intended for you to do.
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In support of Richard, I would remind everyone that TD has written that if the water hazard did not exist before the course was built, it doesn't belong there.
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Michael:
Sometimes the issue boils down to the decision to have five par-5 and five par-3 holes. Sometimes in reducing the amount of par-4 holes in total -- you lose that opportunity to insert a quality short par-4 into the mix.
At WV you dont notice there are 5 par 3s and par 5s they blend in and flow very well.
Anthony
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Anthony:
The issue is not whether they par-5 and par-3 holes blend in well together -- it's whether the cumulative nature of the par-4 holes is at its maximum at WV. I believe one less par-5 and par-3 hole would have added to the combination of par-4 holes at the course. Just my opinion.
No doubt people can move tees around -- but the original intent of the architect simply left off a driveable risk/reward par-4 off when linked to the back tees currently in use.
FYI -- at the 4th one would have to play the hole from the extreme front tee to get a length near 300 yards.
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The 10th at WV is a 600+ yard par-5 that plays back into the prevailing wind -- a decent hole but lacking in any comparable strategic elements you get from the other holes there. There are no bunkers in the drive and 2nd shot areas and I believe if a center-placed bunker(s) were added it would add a bit more thinking when you step on the tee.
Those who opt for the green in two blows -- will need to avoid pulling their 2nd shots to the left -- the approach fromt he left side is quite demanding given the drop-off from that side of the putting surface.
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WV's par-3 11th is one of the weaker holes on the course and in my mind the weakest on the inner half. The green is fairly straightforward it provides a great opportunity for birdie given the stretch of holes that follow.
The uphill 12th is listed at 435 yards but plays at least 25 yards longer given the rise from tee to green.
The thing about the 12th is that the green is quite deep -- almost 40 yards so with any pin placement near the rear you need to make sure you have sufficient stick in your hand. A very tough hole that starts the concluding series of holes that makes WV so very special and fun to play.
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The 10th at WV is a 600+ yard par-5 that plays back into the prevailing wind -- a decent hole but lacking in any comparable strategic elements you get from the other holes there. There are no bunkers in the drive and 2nd shot areas and I believe if a center-placed bunker(s) were added it would add a bit more thinking when you step on the tee.
Those who opt for the green in two blows -- will need to avoid pulling their 2nd shots to the left -- the approach fromt he left side is quite demanding given the drop-off from that side of the putting surface.
This brings to mind the placement of the bathtub size bunker on the 13th at Rustic Canyon. Not a big gathering bunker, but with enough influence to get one's attention. But, at what distance to place such on such a long hole; maybe at the 240 forward tees, 280 back tees?
Matt really, how many folks reading this explanation of 'those who opt for the green in two blows' take that comment to heart? Unless it is some serious downhill tee to green elevation change, I'm thinking less than 1/2 of 1% of golfers relate to that! ::) ;) ;D
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RJ:
I like what Doak did w the 3rd at Pac Dunes. You can have two bunkers placed 60 or so yards apart to account for the different wind directions. Either way they are present and give the player a bit of thought before pulling the trigger.
RJ, if you saw the firm and fast conditions at WV you'd be surprised at how close someone can get there. I grant you it's a very, very small percentage but others can get near to the target -- having another bunker nearer to the lay-up area would also be a plus.
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Matt, I agree with that concept yo explain at PD. Do you think this is one 'suggestion' for future consideration at WV that would be taken seriously in the future? I would like to hear what Kye has to say about such original design modification in this one particular regard of setting a moderate centerline B configuration on such a hole design.
This same idea can be thought of on Wild Horse 6th, the bunkerless par 5. But, in that case, there is enough ground movement in elevation change and angles off tee and second shot, along with a very well crafted green, that in that case, I don't think a center line bunker would be needed. One, very small one (again in the vain of the Rustic Canyon bathtub on 13) but in the very wide second shot layup area at WH 6th, might be a notion to ponder. But, I don't necessarily want to second guess the design intent, as it was always a solid and cohesive one from the start out there at WH. The sum at WV may be also of this concept of not to tinker.
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RJ:
I can't say for certain what will happen in the future - but the 10th and 11th holes at WV are a bit of a lull in the overall course. I don't view corrective actions as a "tinker" but more as an awareness on how to make a hole better than what is there now. Given the 10th's length -- it generally plays into the prevailing wind -- the feeling may bave been that less is more and that players have enough to tackle without adding more minefields.
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(http://www.winevalleygolfclub.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gal-thumb-200/gallery/golf/12-gc_0.jpg)
I don't know how current this photo is of the 12, but it looks like that was mown with a 7 gang. But, that may be just after grow in. Most of the other FW photos look like triplex. But, if the idea might be efficient mowing considerations, maybe the design intent had to be sparing with mid centerline bunkers. Again, I'd like to hear from Dan or Kye or Slag on that aspect of keeping the bunkering numbers down and mowing times and crew lean.
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RJ:
The problem with photos and their interpretation is that it often fails to mirror what is THERE.
I'm sure the folks in the know can respond to your comments.
My point was that the 10th might be helped by such an addition -- it doesn't mean it has to be.
In regards to the 12th -- it is what I mentioned previously. A demanding hole calling for two quality shots
to get to the target and then a fine touch to hopefully leave with a par in hand.
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This brings to mind the placement of the bathtub size bunker on the 13th at Rustic Canyon. Not a big gathering bunker, but with enough influence to get one's attention. But, at what distance to place such on such a long hole; maybe at the 240 forward tees, 280 back tees?
Thanks for bring up that hole at Rustic. I love the center bunker and the central Lion's Mouth bunker at the green. Depending on where the pin is located, you are steered to one side or another, but the second set of fairway bunkers can suddenly make what seems like a hundred yard wide fairway seem very narrow!
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Michael,
Kye wrote the back tee was to be at 330. Apparently, the next back tees would have been in your wheel house at around 300. I believe that's what the white's are today.
Tee it up there. No one is stopping you. That's what Dan intended for you to do.
That reminds me of the members who complain that a certain hole is too short-and they are playing one-two tees up
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WV follows the demanding uphill 12th -- with an equally demanding challenge going back the other way. The slight dog-leg right 13th is another long par-4 -- this time at 505 yards from the tips.
The tee shot provides a blind sight line because you cannot see your ball land. Two main bunkers bracket the fairway but it pays to be as near as possible to the right bunker to soften the approach angle. The green is one of WV's best -- it favors a shot that can be faded into the target. The green has a favorable entry way for those who want to avoid the bunkers that protect the entire right side of the target.
Both the 12th and 13th make for a stunning twosome in their overall design and breath of challenge.
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The final five holes at WV are quite a mixture.
The par-3 14th plays roughly 170 yards -- but the green provides a range of contour movements --especially on the wings.
The uphill -ar-5 15th could be changed to a par-4 if desired. The hole length is complicated by a left frontal bunker that blocks off much of the green. Just a small target and the elevation change is worth at least 2 clubs.
The par-3 16th looks very simple but the green angle is set in a slight diagonal and balls that come into the target from the left side have a great shot in getting close - but the ground on that side can deflect balls if they are tugged just a tad too much to that side. The back right bunker is well-placed and will grab any errant shot that is off the mark even slightly.
The 17th at Wine Valley plays abotu 420 yards -- uphill again with a very pesky bunker that blocks the ideal line from the right -- the green is not especially deep but it's quite wide and requires roughly 1/2 more club to get into the target.
The closing hole is a downhill par-5 of 565 yards -- bunkers guard the drive zone from both sides and the hole provides a closing birdie opportunity but the tee shot sets that motion.
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Thanks for the pictures Matt.
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Garland:
Patience.
The photographer who came with me to Wine Valley has a number of first rate pics -- including a sensational sunset !
She's on assignment now and once that concludes and once the pics have been sorted out for what can be posted on GCA you'll be able to judge for yourself.
thanks,
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Just one other comment for now -- the sum of WV is really well done. Plenty of options galore and the playability element is clearly alive and well. Angles do matter when playing the course and when you have truly solid fast and firm conditions the bar of shotmaking is clearly high.
I'd be curious to know from those who have played it how high would they rate the course against other public courses that are $100 or lower in playing fees?
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Falls behind The Links of North Dakota for me.
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Garland:
You're joking -- I hope.
Wine Valley is in line with the likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon to me.
Links of ND doesn't sniff that trio.
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The Links of ND makes golfweek top 100 modern. Rustic doesn't. So you are alone on your assessment in that regard.
So LND plays in a similar arena with Wild Horse. I doubt Wine Valley will.
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Garland:
That's rich -- you hold out Golfweek as the sole determining ingredient for course greatness.
They've missed the boat on plenty -- just check out their latest best places to play in each state summary.
Rustic Canyon is beyond Links of ND -- have you played the CA course or simply just LND and WV ?
Please state with clarity what YOU have played. I prefer to get solo opinions on such matters for total clarification.
WV is a superb layout and has the better terrain, routing and overall presentation than LND.
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Garland:
That's rich -- you hold out Golfweek as the sole determining ingredient for course greatness.
Not hardly. I use Golfweek to demonstrate that I am in the vast majority comparing LND to RC, whereas you may be in a minority that could be as small as 1.
They've missed the boat on plenty -- just check out their latest best places to play in each state summary.
Rustic Canyon is beyond Links of ND -- have you played the CA course or simply just LND and WV ?
Please state with clarity what YOU have played. I prefer to get solo opinions on such matters for total clarification.
I have played LND, RC, and WV, but not WH.
WV is a superb layout and has the better terrain, routing and overall presentation than LND.
The number of absurd statements that you make to put down LND continues to grow.
Fortunately Golfweek keeps past rankings on their site, so I was able to discover that RC has only recently fallen out of the top 100. Therefore, although you hold a minority opinion of it, it is not as minority as I had suspected.
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Garland:
Look at the Golfweek listing for the best places to play in each state -- there's plenty of holes on that list.
The western states and those in the mountain time zone seem to be especially bizarre.
WV is right there with Wild Horse on all architectural elements -- I see it ahead. The lone area where WH winds conclusively is on the price front. WV is still a bargain biut WH is a steal.
Absurd?
Let's try this again -- the first six holes at LND are pedestian holes. Only when you get to the par-5 7th does the course raise the stakes. The rest of the layout is quite good but when you have 1/3 of the course being quite ordinary you have a major hole to fill. WV has the better overall consistency in terms of the holes. A few of the par-3 holes there are quite tame but the green contours more than make up for that. There's one siure thing that LND does win -- utter remoteness.
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Garland:
Look at the Golfweek listing for the best places to play in each state -- there's plenty of holes on that list.
The western states and those in the mountain time zone seem to be especially bizarre.
WV is right there with Wild Horse on all architectural elements -- I see it ahead. The lone area where WH winds conclusively is on the price front. WV is still a bargain biut WH is a steal.
Absurd?
Let's try this again -- the first six holes at LND are pedestian holes. Only when you get to the par-5 7th does the course raise the stakes. The rest of the layout is quite good but when you have 1/3 of the course being quite ordinary you have a major hole to fill. WV has the better overall consistency in terms of the holes. A few of the par-3 holes there are quite tame but the green contours more than make up for that. There's one siure thing that LND does win -- utter remoteness.
Absurd, because of your claim the terrain and routing are inferior. You seem not to remember the terrain and routing as you have claimed Eastmoreland in Portland had better terrain.
Then every time you have written in the past that the first six holes are pedestrian, when reminded of the 2nd you write oh yes the 2nd, I forgot about the second. Perhaps you need to go back to ND and refresh your memory.
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Garland:
The first six holes at LND are merely warm-ups for what lies ahead. The game begins with the par-5 7th.
WV has the better collection of holes -- the better terrain and the better green sites -- especially the last item by far.
LND is a fine course but anyone making plans to travel there outside of 250 miles will not be thrilled that they took that much time, $$ and effort to get there.
The collaborative efforts that created Wine Valley really focused on a myriad of design details be present during one's round -- they certainly did a stellar job with the budget they had to work with.
You see it whatever way you wish -- WV, in my mind, is ahead of the likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon -- and I like the aforementioned courses. I also like LND but too many people provided votes for it simply because of the isolation factor being in Ray, ND.
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Matt, I have a question for you.
I believe Wine Valley share the same DNA with Sagebrush, Bayonne, Rustic Canyon, and perhaps with Whistling Straits and Black Mesa, neither of which I have played. They are all new generation of links style courses that perhaps not quite play like authentic links courses.
How would you rank all of those courses in order? I have a hard time picking the favorite between Bayonne, Sagebrush, and Wine Valley with Rustic Canyon a definite step behind.
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Richard,
Don't confuse Black Mesa as having the same "DNA". It does not have the wide fairways of the others, and can be a ball eater.
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Richard:
Interesting question.
WV provides ample fairway width and doesn't have the same driving requirements of the others -- notably Black Mesa. However, I do believe that places like Black Mesa are superior to WV because of that ingredient. Driving the ball is an important skill and one that needs to be emphasized rather than just creating mega-fields of open areas that diminish that skill. At BM you get eye-targets that can pysch-out player before they pull the club back. I see the par-4 10th at BM as being one of the finest holes you can play anywhere because it puts mental pressure on the player on the tee. BM, unlike WV, integrates all of the elements at a very high level.
WV, as you correctly pointed out, is a "new generation" of links courses but I am quite hesitant to lump the word "links" in any sort of discussion with the courses you mentioned.
WV champions playability, but it also has the elasticity to provide serious challenges that will not bore the better player. What really interested me in WV is how the greensites are so contoured but not to the point where you have massive waves of movement -- places like Tetherow and even Old Macdonald, come quickly to mind on that front. At WV you have greensites that call upon superior imagination from the player - the bounce of the ball is clearly evident and necessary as a tool to be used by the player.
I want to give some thought to the question you asked in terms of course compariosns == it is something that needs to be weighed carefully before I write down my thoughts with some sort of definitive reasoning.
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Richard:
Just a few additional thoughts.
Bayonne is just beyond anything else -- primarily because it was created from such a vision given what was there previously.
For all the ink that places like Shadow Creek generate -- the creation of Bayonne is truly mindboggling. Eric Bergstol deserves plenty of credit for succeeding in a location and environment where failure was just a step behind at any time. Bayonne is quite a bit narower than Wine Valley -- the front nine holes especially. I also don't see the turf conditions at Bayonne being as firm and fast as one gets at WV.
I have not played Sagebrush yet -- but from all the reports I have read and received it appears the BC-located course is a winner and does what you mentioned -- provide a 2010 links "style" albeit removed from direct connection to a large body of water nearby. I hope to play it in 2011.
Wine Valley and Bayonne are two entirely different premised courses. WV took a wonderful existing piece of property and made a course with a fairly limited budget. Bayonne, on the other hand, is simply a mega story on man's ability to overcome and impose one's vision on a property that was simply never remotely thought of as a golf option. Clearly $$ made that happen -- so did dogged tenacity.
To paraphrase Tom Doak -- I would place such courses in my favorite listing of places to play because they provide such a thrilling and unique element far beyond your basic variety of courses that are often mass-produced with little attempt at real detailing.
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I don't think anyone put up a link to some of these early photos of WV, that Slag took mostly. They do show some interesting views, even though they were recent grow-in and bunkers a little raw.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37672.0/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37672.0/)
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I don't think anyone put up a link to some of these early photos of WV, that Slag took mostly. They do show some interesting views, even though they were recent grow-in and bunkers a little raw.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37672.0/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37672.0/)
It would be good if Matt would add his promised pictures.
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Garland:
I have not forgotten -- when they become available happy to post.
thanks,
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Thought I would make a return to the forum and post up about wine Valley.
First off, I've read a few comments that compare, or attempt to compare Wine Valley to Palouse Ridge. As I now live in the Spokane area, I had a chance to play Palouse a couple of months ago...and I can definitivly say that WV blows away PR. Don't get me wrong, PR is no chopped liver and a very good course in its own right, but WV is a clear step up.
I'm headed down there tomorrow to take a 2nd look at the course and I hope the 2nd visit will be just as enjoyable and memorable as the 1st one.
Kalen
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Kalen:
Agree w you on the PR v WV situation. John Harbottle did a fine job with the Pullman layout -- but WV has the more natural flow of holes and the green sites are really tied in very well with the various approach shots one plays.
The sad fact is that these two layouts are far better than many might imagine but because of their relative isolation, even with all the discussion here, are not as fully appreciated as they and should be.
Look forward to your follow-up comments.
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I'm bummed that I didn't get the chance to get out there this weekend. Mother Nature was unkind to the area this weekend so the plans feel thru.
I may try to get down there next weekend though. Can't wait to get back.
P.S. I'll be bringing the camera along to get the latest pics of the place.
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WV is just set in a remote area where little real golf attention is paid.
No doubt that can change with more discussion on what it provides.
Look forward to your stuff.
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Matt, glad to read that you made it back out west to Walla Walla and doubly glad you enjoyed the golf. Thanks for the interesting opinions. I'd be interested in the pictures that everyone is bugging you about. It is a trek, to be sure, but not too far from civilization and I think the drives up the Columbia River Gorge on I84 and SR14 and up the Wallula Gap are damned cool.
As Kye credits, Tyler and Kris are the tenacious bulldogs that have kept the turf in F&F conditions that have set a new standard for the inland Northwest.
There is some updating going on with some new tees and bunkering but I'll have to make some phone calls first.
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Slag:
I have a great photo person and once the article is set in motion I can then use the other photos in other areas as I wish.
WV is a wonderful layout and frankly for all the hype places like Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon get -- WV is, in my mind at least, superior to both.
The Gorge area you mentioned is a treat to see and with the new highway completed leading out to the course it's so much e-z-ier to get there now.
The superintendent at WV deserves high marks for the manner in which the course presents itself. F & F is talked about frequently on this site but WV is the real deal in that regard. I look forward to a return round there -- hopefully with you in the same group with me.
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Should have a few photos up very shortly ... thanks for the patience !
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Wine Valley is indeed an incredible golf course and experience! Being lucky enough to have played the likes of Rock Creek Cattle Company, Bandon's Big 4, Chambers Bay and Circling Raven, the Wine Valley Golf Club needs to be put in the same catagory! The group was comprised of 8 golf industry guys and we all loved it! Challenging yet fair test of golf. Instant favorite!
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Mark (and entourage), glad y'all enjoyed it.
I just spoke with Super Tyler this afternoon. New back tees have gone in on 1,2 5, 8 and 9.
A few new bunkers are still being considered.
As an aside, they have not watered anything except greens since mid-September. All lines purged now.
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Slag:
Can you provide specs on just how much length has been added to the holes you mentioned ?
Are the tees that were added angled in anyway -- or just extended from where present tee boxes are now ?
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I was at Wine Valley on Memorial Day playing a tournament, foursomes in about five hours. A lot of time was spent watching the group in front putt and putt and putt as they had some uber-difficult pins and most of the field was neophytes to WVGC. SW (dead into you on #1) wind varying from 8-15 mph, which I guess was the opposite directon from the day before. Shirt sleeves by noon even for the less hardy. Stimping around 11 with some uber-difficult pins chosen. Scoring was high and I beat some players who can usually whip and outdrive me with ease. They now have a yardage book which is best used for determining how your tee shot measures up against the fairway bunkering. I guess this was my first time playing to the #3 pin settings as sor the first time I had to putt to the shelves on the left side of 2, 6 and 8.
I had forgotton how much fun I have playing at this course, especially since it is cheaper and closer to my home than Bandon. Can hardly wait until the next time.
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I was at Wine Valley on Memorial Day playing a tournament, foursomes in about five hours. A lot of time was spent watching the group in front putt and putt and putt as they had some uber-difficult pins and most of the field was neophytes to WVGC. SW (dead into you on #1) wind varying from 8-15 mph, which I guess was the opposite directon from the day before. Shirt sleeves by noon even for the less hardy. Stimping around 11 with some uber-difficult pins chosen. Scoring was high and I beat some players who can usually whip and outdrive me with ease. They now have a yardage book which is best used for determining how your tee shot measures up against the fairway bunkering. I guess this was my first time playing to the #3 pin settings as sor the first time I had to putt to the shelves on the left side of 2, 6 and 8.
I had forgotton how much fun I have playing at this course, especially since it is cheaper and closer to my home than Bandon. Can hardly wait until the next time.
Pete,
Last time I was down there in March we had to play to those shelves on #2 and #8 as well. The left shelf on #8 is a doozy to try to get the ball to stop up there.
Wine Valley is indeed the real deal and can't wait to get down there again this year.
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Kalen,
Tee shots have to trickle down the side slope. With the angles I had strategy was to put safe to about 5-10 feet away and hope for a save.
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Say Matt, when are you going to put the pictures up? ;D
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There were some comments on the Gamble Sands thread about Wine Valley. Incidentally it was the last stop on my Washington road trip and it was the first time I had played the course. I knew a little about it but had not read any of the reviews etc. Together with Gamble Sands they were the missing links in my Washington resume. First of all as has been mentioned Walla Walla is a serious drive away from most of civilization unless the Tri Cities are qualifies there. I'm not 100% certain of that even having played a fair number of tennis tournaments there as a kid.
As for the course, I was really happy I made the 3.5 hour drive from Coeur d'Alene to play it before then driving the 5.5 hours home to my mom's house in Oregon. So yes, it's worth 8.5 hours of driving. That's a good start. I caught it on an extremely hot day (well maybe not for them). I hit the course at 105 degrees. It's a walking course for sure....I didn't walk. I wish I could of but honestly, I'm not that stupid. I could of done it and have done many rounds in 100 degrees but not followed by a 5.5 hour drive.
It's definitely an if you build it they will come affair. I was there on a Thursday, started playing at 12:30 and I was really surprised at how many people were out on the course. I was told there was a nice gap because nobody played at that time and several 4 balls had started early but seemed to see people all over the place and ran into groups as I approached the 7th hole. Happy to see this level of business being generated during the week, during working hours and while it's hotter than hell. Make no mistake about it. 105 degrees is hotter than hell.
I think they did a great job on this course. I enjoyed the routing, it felt natural, greens were very intersting as well. Bunkering also thoughtfully done and looking natural for the most part. The only part I really couldn't figure out was how lush and soft the course was playing. When I read Matt's initial comments he suggests firm and fast. Maybe that's because the course was new?
Has anyone been out there that has also played Chambers Bay or Gamble Sands? I mean those are perfectly maintained and very firm and fast. If Wine Valley had that level of firmness then it would be so much more fun.
So I'm missing something here. What's happened? Who's been out there in the last years and played a firm and fast course?
As of right now I'd say great fun course, but they need to send their Head Greenkeeper over to do an exchange with Gamble Sands and work that stuff out.
I don't see this as a negative comment just one they could very quickly do something about.
- however I will as the question to any of the experts here. What would be the reason they would keep the course so lush in these conditions when it's really not that kind of course. I mean it's not really a parkland. Would they lose the turf for example? I'm more in favor of courses letting the weather dictate the conditions. So when it's hot and dry for a long period the course would play firm and fast. When it's very wet, perhaps it will be greener but hopefully still firm and fast if it's a links or inland links style course.
Curious about others comments.
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David,
I've played the course 4 times in the past, and while it was never fast and firm like a Bandon, it certainly was never wet and slow either. My only guess is that given the super hot temps, its like many courses here in Salt Lake city where they put down a lot of water to make sure they don't lose the grass in the sustained dry heat, (especially like this summer where it didnt cool down much at night)
I suspect if you went there in October when the cooler temps have set in, it would be a very different experience, just like many of the courses here that firm up being cooler and using a lot less water.
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David,
I've played the course 4 times in the past, and while it was never fast and firm like a Bandon, it certainly was never wet and slow either. My only guess is that given the super hot temps, its like many courses here in Salt Lake city where they put down a lot of water to make sure they don't lose the grass in the sustained dry heat, (especially like this summer where it didnt cool down much at night)
I suspect if you went there in October when the cooler temps have set in, it would be a very different experience, just like many of the courses here that firm up being cooler and using a lot less water.
Kalen,
Thanks, I thought you might chime in. I can see that argument but why is it not also valid for Gamble Sands?
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Hey David,
It could be that Gamble Sands is built on actual sand, so the surface drains better and less wet? Unlike Wine Valley which is not built on sand, but a very fine dirt.
Could also be that given its quite a bit further north and higher elevation the summer temps could be a lot more mild. I know the tri-cities area does get quite warm in the summers, even significantly more so than the Spokane area which is only 2-3 hours away.
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David,
I played Wine Valley in April 2015 and it was playing firm and fast, in fact, the greens were in perfect condition and required a deft touch. Kalen is probably right, extra watering during the exceptionally hot conditions.
Tyler
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Historically, its high 80s, low 90s this time of year, so 105 was certainly exceptional!
P.S. The Spokane area is full of soft, parkland courses where I played for several years, so going down to Walla Walla, i recall vividly how fast and firm it was relatively speaking. David, if you read this entire thread, you'll see most others who have played it report similar conditions from a few years back. Its possible mgmt has changed since then along with the "maintenance meld".
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My experiences at Wine Valley, maybe 10 plays, was that it was on the firm and fast side, playing about 350-400 yards shorter than the card. It is a course that rewards my relatively low ball flight. They must have had enough water on the course to allow cart usage, otherwise they'd leave semi-permanent tire tracks.
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Last time I played there it was 105 and the ball wouldn't stop running. But, a sample size of 1 is not a dependable indicator.
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I'll also add on saying I've always played it firm and fast. Wet and slow is news to me! If I were you, I would have gone inside and said, "I'm going to be honest, I was disappointed. I thought this course was supposed to be firm and fast" to give them some feedback and a backhanded slap. I'm sorry to hear that you had to play it in those conditions, but I'm glad to hear you still thought it was worth the 8.5 hours of driving. I always try to tell people about Wine Valley when I have a chance!
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Gents,
Really good to hear the norm is fast and furious. That is really what I had expected. I was just told they also had a big event coming up so maybe they were preparing for this so that could also help explain the softer than normal conditions. The other thing is that perhaps it's all relative and since I had just come from Gamble Sands which was also in perfect shape and as firm and fast as could be the fact that there was not a huge amount of roll in the fairways and the greens were receptive could be relative.
It's hard to determine without knowing you guy well what your individual ideas of fast and firm are. However, Matthew one thing I didn't really say was wet. I wouldn't call it wet. I would say too soft for my preference. Too lush for my preference but not too wet.
So in light of all the comments I'm happy to accept that the temps meant they needed to water more to save the turf and they were also preparing for the big event they have which was some big regional championship tournament.
Both do a lot to answer the questions. By the way the course was in excellent shape I will add. I hope I didn't give the impression of anything else. Otherwise I would of complained about the 8,5 hour drive ha ha...
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Sprinklers come on at night. The later in the day you play, the faster the course will play. I last played late in the day.