Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: George Pazin on September 14, 2009, 03:08:45 PM
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I'm happy to report that Joe Hancock just got word that work is starting on a new project this week, so he's requested delaying his bit for a few weeks, and Anthony Nysse has been gracious enough to step up in his place.
Tony is another long time poster who is in the industry (in case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm trying to emphasize industry folks in the early stages of this series - and as another wise poster has suggested, I'm saving some of the folks who've done Feature Interviews for later on also).
The list of courses he has worked on are rather impressive, but I'll let him share that list with you.
Tony indicated he has a meeting Tuesday morning, but he'll try to check in both before and after it to answer questions.
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On deck: ?? Haven't gotten a firm commitment yet, will update asap.
Previous participants:
Jeff Brauer (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41283.0/)
Kyle Harris (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41354.0/)
Mike Young (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41379.0/)
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JOe just doesn't want to be the guy to follw Mike Young ;)
AG
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JOe just doesn't want to be the guy to follw Mike Young ;)
AG
Damn straight...but I'll support Tony in any way possible.... ;D
Joe
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Tony,
Getting a jump on the field because I'll be at work early tomorrow and DoD computers don't allow GCA discusssion groups. I am both fascinated and intimidated by what you and those in your field are asked to do everyday. Thanks for participating.
1) Just recently Old Waverly in Mississippi replaced their Bent with Champion Bermuda. Many other courses are doing the same with other grasses. Do you ever see horticulture getting to a point where it can support warm season grasses that play like finer bladed cool season grasses without compromise?
2) What's the single most important thing you'd like every green committee to understand about your job and what it takes to perform it?
3) The recent downturn leaves many in the golf business--like every business--in a struggle to "get lean". When it's time to make hard decisions, what goes first: conditioning, equipment, or payroll?
4) In allowing a turf to struggle to maintain firm and fast conditions; how far is too far before you're being counterproductive to the plant and playing surface?
5) What's the hardest thing you've ever been asked to accomplish on a golf course? Anecdotes are encouraged here.
6) Fried Eggs: sunny-side up, over easy, medium, or hard?
Thanks again for participating.
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I would like you to elaborate on Ben's question on warm season grasses:
"1) Just recently Old Waverly in Mississippi replaced their Bent with Champion Bermuda. Many other courses are doing the same with other grasses. Do you ever see horticulture getting to a point where it can support warm season grasses that play like finer bladed cool season grasses without compromise?"
Do you think Colonial would benefit from switching to a new strain of Bermuda as it relates to playing condtions for the members (as opposed to the Invitational for one week in May)? I am sure the club would save just on electric bills by getting rid of all those fans!!!!!
Enchilada's or Fajitas at Joe T.s? ( I am assuming the margaritas are a given)
Charleston or Fort Worth for better looking women?
Paul
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Anthony, do you see yourself becoming more active, perhaps a run for the board, in the GCSAA someday?
What is your Alma Mater if you are a grad of a specific turf science program?
Pardon me if you posted any of these things in past and I forgot....
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Just to catch everyone up to speed….
Well, I guess it is easiest to say that I was born into a golfing family. My father has been in the golf business for nearly 40 years and seems to love it as much today as he did 40 years ago. Some of my earliest memories are taking my entire class (30 students) to the golf course each spring for an afternoon of hitting golf balls, playing in the bunkers and eating popsicles. I can remember going to the course with my father after light rains to mow fairways with the old Toro 7 gang pull behind because the fairways would “stripe better.” In fact, when I was in kindergarten, I told the class I wanted to be a golf course superintendent-my mom still has the poster somewhere.
I began working on a golf course at the age of 12 as a divot boy, 3 days a week. I worked at Railside Golf Club, a short, quirky design by Jerry & Bruce Matthews. (Ironically, the course my dad current is at.) Railside is really good match play course with drivable par 4’s, reachable par 5’s…a fun 6400 yards. I worked there all through high school and college. I went to Michigan State after high school and after agreeing to intern for Mark Michaud at Shinnecock Hills, I received a phone call from Mr. Ken Bakst asking me if I’d be interested in working on his course during construction. (Little did I know at the time what Friar’s Head was going to be like) I was blessed to work with Bill Coore, Jeff Bradley, Dave Axland, Toby Cobb and “Jimbo” Wright. I spent most of my time with Jeff doing bunker work. At this time, I also met and worked with Chris Hunt, who has gone on and worked for Tom Doak. Kyle Hegland, the current Superintendent at Sand Hills was my college roommate and all Kyle could talk about was one day being the Superintendent at Sand Hills-Well done, Kyle! Upon graduating from Michigan State, I went back and helped finish up the bunkers at Friars Head in the spring of 2002. In August of the same year, I got my first Assistant Superintendent position at Crystal Springs CC. (Previous Superintendents include Harry Shueman of the PGA Tour and Steve Anderson of Inverness.) In the fall of 2003, the 2nd Assistant Superintendent position became available at Long Cove Club (1981 Pete Dye) on Hilton Head Island, SC. My other college roommate’s family live 20 minutes from HHI and we went there during breaks in college and I loved the area. Long Cove was the only course I wanted to work on in the area. Having never worked with bermudagrass, I knew it was a long shot, but I was tired of the cold winters and wanted to experience a high end golf course. Mr. Ashley Davis hired me and after 8 months, I was promoted to Senior Assistant Superintendent where I stayed until October of 2007. Prior to leaving, I took a trip to south Florida and played Pine Tree GC and told me father that I would love to work there one day. I had a desire to be part of a golf course renovation, manage bentgrass in the south and also hold a PGA Tour event. That brought me to Colonial CC, (1936 Maxwell/Bredemus) 6 months prior to a $3.5 million renovation. Mr. Scott Ebers hired me and I was brought up to speed quickly. Mr. Ebers has a deep understand of golf course architecture and the Old Dead Guys. There are few superintendents that are as passionate about their course as he is. His way of watering bentgrass during the summer periods not only keeps the bentgrass healthy, BUT keeps them quite firm, something uncommon on southern bentgrass. After a successful Crowne Plaza Invitational, Keith Foster and TDI came in and did the most detailed, thought out renovation that Colonial had ever had. Bunkers were repositioned, tees were lowered and squared off, bunkers that were once lost were returned, trees were moved to recapture old shots and FINALLY a sand was installed that could hold up to the rain events that northern Texas has. Keith is such a student of old architecture and never wants to be the one recognized for his work, BUT without Keith, Southern Hills would not have been restored right, Five Farms would not have been restored right, Eastward Ho! would have been restored right and Colonial would not have been restored right. Keith is tremendously underrated, but I believe that he restores a golf course as good as any.
After preparing Colonial for another Crowe Plaza, I had the itch to get away from southern bentgrass and I had always had a desire to move to south Florida. I got a phone call during tournament week at Colonial to gauge my interest about coming to Pine Tree. I flew out 3 days after the conclusion of the tournament. One thing lead to another, and here I am. I’ve been a member of GCA the whole time and I’d be lying if I said that GCA didn’t play a roll into the position that I’ve been blessed to obtain.
Ben,
1. With Old Waverly changed from bentgrass to bermudagrass, I think that this continues this new trend, particularly at the very high end courses, that it’s okay to have bermudagrass greens. (Atlanta Athletic Club, East Lake to name a few) For courses below the Mason Dixon, it CAN BE very difficult to manage bentgrass, but it is doable. I think that the deciding factor at many courses is being able to provide 12 month conditions. Like bentgrass, there are new varieties of ultradwarft coming out all the time. Just in the last 15 years, Tifeagle, Champion and Mini Verde have become popular and a far cry from Tifdwarf. I think that we will continue to see varieties get better and better and more comparable to bentgrass.
2. Greens committees across the board must ALWAYS keep in mind that a golf course is a living, moving thing. There are variables that are out of a superintendent’s control AND when things go wrong with the turfgrass, it is not always fixed over night. Months and years of different cultural practices take months and years to fix, though progress can be show. Just 2 months of neglect to a golf course can take a year to put back together, depending on the time of neglect.
3. I think that it’s a superintendent’s duty to always be conscience of his/her spending. I think that watching payroll during these hard economic times if VERY important, but there are many ways to be more efficient and cut back with the use of fertilizers and growth regulators. The key to a lot of cost saving is water usage…too much water leads to more spending.
4. It’s one thing to have “stressed” turf WITH roots, it is another thing to have stressed to WITHOUT roots. Stressed turf with roots will recovery and hold on. I would want to be on the receiving end of turf with shallow roots…..
5. I wish I could go into more detail, but I think that task that I’m currently undertaking has been the most difficult task I’ve been ask to overtake/overhaul in my career.
6. Sunny side up, please!
Paul,
The topic of converting the A4 bentgrass at Colonial to an ultradwaft came up both summers that I was there, as I sure it came up prior and will continue to in the future. They finally have one of the best superintendents in the country for managing bentgrass in the south in Scott Ebers. Honestly, Colonial was built by Mr. Marvin Leonard because he played golf up north on the bentgrasses of the early 1930’s. As long as they still value and respect his legacy, they will continue to have bentgrass. (70+ years and counting) In that neighborhood of private clubs, it’s a feather in the cap to have bentgrass and I think a club like Colonial, with its history, would be VERY hard to convince for change. I know the maintenance staff would benefit from not having to handwater till 6pm in May, June, July, August and September!
I’ll take the Enchiladas washed down by the best margis in town!
According to the PGA Tour Officials, the 3 best tournaments on TOUR for “local talent” are Verizon Heritage (Harbor Town) The Players (TPC) and Crowne Plaza. (Colonial) I’ll take Fort Worth because that is where I met my girlfriend, although Dallas gets a little plastic for my taste….
RJ,
I do not envision myself running for the GCSAA Board of any sort. If I were to do anything, possibly a local chapter official. A lot of past presidents have either lost their jobs or been asked to move on because members/owners are paying these superintendents a lot of money and many of them are gone 100+ days are year with the GCSAA. If I was an owner and I was paying a superintendent a healthy salary, he was gone 100 days a year and the golf course remained is great condition-it wouldn’t be a hard decision for me. Plus, I’m one that just loves being on the golf course and need to see everything before a decision can be made….I’ll get better at that!
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Anthony,
Thanks for playing along at congrats on achieving your lifes goal.
You are a 2002 college grad but have already had some great experiences at some top notch courses, how old are you?
I am playing Friars Head in a couple of weeks, any tips? Where do I need to look to see your work?
Do you worry that you may be confused with Anthony Gray on some of your posts?
The super's job can be quit consuming,how many hours a week do you work?
Tom Izzo had alot of success when you were in school, do you follow the Spartens close?
Thanks for your time............Anthony
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Anthony,
Thanks for playing along at congrats on achieving your lifes goal.
You are a 2002 college grad but have already had some great experiences at some top notch courses, how old are you?
I am playing Friars Head in a couple of weeks, any tips? Where do I need to look to see your work?
Do you worry that you may be confused with Anthony Gray on some of your posts?
The super's job can be quit consuming,how many hours a week do you work?
Tom Izzo had alot of success when you were in school, do you follow the Spartens close?
Thanks for your time............Anthony
AG, (If I may!:))
Thank you for your kind words-I am a 2002 graduate of MSU and I am currently 28 years old, though feel like I’m 40!
Anthony, I spent about 75% of my time at Friars doing the bunker work with Jeff Bradley. The 3 right side fairway bunkers on #13 was the first time Jeff ever handed me the paint gun to look at bunker lines. In fact, I believe that there is still small bunker, about 100 yards off the #13-that was the first bunker that I did without too much of Jeff’s help. The only bunkers that I did not work on (as of the last time I saw it) are the bunkers on #8 and the green side bunkers on #15. My favorite bunker at FH is the bunker between the tee and fairway on #7. That is all man made. In fact, the native plantings in that bunker came from the field to the LEFT of #13. We called it “chunking.” At the end of the day, EVERY one of those bunkers are JBradley creations-he is truly one of the most talented! Chris Hunt and I spent about 2 weeks working on #16 green and it’s chipping surround. Unfortunately, about 30 minutes after Bill Coore blessed it, we has a gully washer and everything washed away! There is a large waste area/bunker to the left of #11 fairway-At one time, this was 4 smaller bunkers. The bunker to the right of #10 green used to be a haul road for the entire construction process. Enjoy your round there and try to gt some pics. I look forward to going back soon!
AG-You’re correct-this job can be time consuming, but rewarding as well. Right now, I’m around 80-85hours a week-There is just a lot of things to “get right.” I’m a big follower of the Spartys! In fact, Drew Neitzel is from my home town and played 4 years for Izzo. I got to watch Drew playing high school against my brother. I was in the minority last year cheering for them while I was in Texas as they made their Final for run….
And yes, I do worry about being confused. No one called me Anthony except for my mom…when I’m in trouble…
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Anthony,
Congrats on your new place....one of my favorites....
Sometimes on here someone will think I am being critical of supts as it pertains to rework or grow-ins....and in reality I am not...I am trying to relate individual cases while knowing that most are very dedicated at what they do. But this gives me a chance to ask a supt a few questions directly.
1. I have seen 5 major redos in the area in recent years and in every case the supt was out of there after a year or more....is this because the membership was expecting much more than the rework would have provided...or what?
2. Why would a supt wish to get in the middle of a construction project instead of telling the club..I grow the grass..give it back to me when it is ready.....don't you set yourself up for blame issues etc when this happens? Don't you agree that most supts know little of construction and are just curious? And that is in no way a slam at supts....
3. Do you think it is best to have a separate grow-in supt in most cases. And do many of the guys that get in trouble with redos do so because grow-in is so different than what they have been doing for the last 20 years?
4. I have a friend who was a well educated (Penn State) supt and who had been in the business at some really big places and had a great job....he said to me" I got to find me a small course somewhere to own....you just don't see any supts past 50 any more" he was right.....and he did and he has done well.... Question do you agree? And for the older supts would you agree that so much has come along technology wise that it is often hard to change and therefore they often do not..and get left behind....( sort of like a mechanic that really knows carburetors but cannot work on electronic ignition)
5. It seems that some architects begin a redo with a new supt and actually suggest in a subtle way such to the clubs....do you see any logic to this?
If you had good pushup greens with good surface drainage and a club wanted to redo the greens to USGA specs....and the offer was made...."we will pay you an extra $50,000 per year to manage these greens or we can give you USGA greens"...what would you do?
And last----why do so many supts lose their jobs after going from push-up to USGA spec greens..is it expectations are too high from membership or is it methodology?
Thanks.
M ike
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Mike,
Always a pleasure to talk with you. I’ll try my best to answer your questions.
1.If the superintendent is leaving on his own terms, I think that he/she may use a construction/grow in as a stepping stone to their next position-some superintendents like jumping around from course to course doing the grow in part. If the membership is asking them to leave, they probably kept them around because the superintendent was involved in all the planning and budgeting for the renovation work, therefore its hard to get rid of a superintendent who has been so intimately involved until a project is complete. I think some members feel as though that have a new course, let have a new face maintaining it as well.
2.I think that is this day in age, so many superintendents are nervous about losing their position, that they get into the middle of a construction project to ensure that they are still employed. Thankfully, with the network capabilities many superintendents have, getting the right answers aren’t usually too far away. A superintendent does became the first finger that is pointed if a renovation/grow in doesn’t go well…BUT they can also be the first finger that is pointed when things go right, as was part of the case at Colonial, because of S. Ebers passion and depth for the project. He was there everyday, making sure every detail was right because he knew it was his reputation. As far as most superintendents NOT knowing about construction-I think that you have a small group of individuals that can be successful as a superintendent OR a grow in superintendent. When I was the Assistant at Long Cove, I lost out on a superintendent position at a really good club that was doing a renovation. The gentleman that they hired had done 2 grow ins…this was the #1 reason I went to Colonial because it was the biggest thing missing on my resume. (I had already done construction/grow in at Friars Head)
3. I think that if a club has the right board or committees in place, they will have the right superintendent there to be able to accept the task of becoming the grow in superintendent as well. I think that it’s great for a superintendent to be brought into a construction project as early as possible so that he/she can start their practices as early and plus, they know if anything is being buried, when pipe is being laid, cables are being laid, etc….
4. I’d have to agree that there is a stigma that superintendents over 50 “don’t have it” anymore or that they are set in their ways. Is this true? Yes and no. Some of America’s best superintendents are over 50, but there are currently 2 high end courses in America right now that have new a superintendent because the membership thought that the previous superintendent was too old. I think the GCSAA has to step up and market the older superintendents MUCH BETTER than what they have. I’d have to say that it’s very important to accept change because of all the new technology. MOST of the newer technology is better or will present a better golf course. Some guys like to stick with what they know works.
5. Yes. In some cases where the superintendent has been in place 30+ years it MAY BE better for the club to start off with someone fresh. Each club has to review their long term goals before making that decision.
6. Are the greens like Oakmont or Merions where the XGD has been done? There are A LOT of fine golf courses with great push up greens. So many people believe that USGA greens are the best because they say USGA. I don’t know if a lot of superintendents lose their jobs over switching, BUT there is a learning curve and the greens act much differently. A lot of memberships believe that the switch to USGA is “cure all.” It still takes sound management practices to provide a great project-members don’t want to hear that after they have spent $40k/ green to renovate.
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Tony, those bunkers at Friars Head are world class and incredibly natural. My day there playing with John Bernhardt and a caddy was a blur of great golf holes, great terrain, wow.
My favorite bunker was that diabolical thing in front of the fifth green. Jeez, give me a break! Combined with the knob, that is amazingly difficult to get close to a pin in the front half of the green.
My two favorite holes there were probably the 7th and 14th, the holes that take you from the flatlands up into the dunes again.
You should certainly include construction/grow in at Friars Head on your resume if you haven't already!
What are the greens at Pine Tree? What's your experience been with Champion if any? Old standby Tifdwarf has worked well for us at Pensacola, so long as we don't overseed.
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Anthony -
When it comes to architecture/design, I'm inclined to think that any and all architects worthy of the name have the talent and know-how to pretty much create any style of golf course the client wants; what separates architects from eachother are the choices they make, their personal tastes, the clients they work for, and the land/site they get to work on.
Is it the same in the maintenance/superintendent context? That is, in your experience do most/all superintendents have the talent and know-how to maintain a golf course into whatever playing conditions the client(s) want? Given enough time, money, and support of the higher-ups, can all of them create exactly the field of play required?
Kind of an open-ended question, but I hope it is at least clear.
Peter
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1. Is Pine Tree open year round? If so, how does your job change during the hottest months?
2. Is having the course closed one day a week enough?
3. How important is communication with the green committee and/or the membership? Does the filter of the green committee help or hurt?
4. Any outrageous member complaint stories?
5. Silly question - how do you pronounce your last name?
Interesting reading about your connection with Railside. I used to travel to Bloomington, IL a lot and was supposed to play at Railside one time years ago and had something come up work-wise and I had to cancel.
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Anthony -
When it comes to architecture/design, I'm inclined to think that any and all architects worthy of the name have the talent and know-how to pretty much create any style of golf course the client wants; what separates architects from eachother are the choices they make, their personal tastes, the clients they work for, and the land/site they get to work on.
Is it the same in the maintenance/superintendent context? That is, in your experience do most/all superintendents have the talent and know-how to maintain a golf course into whatever playing conditions the client(s) want? Given enough time, money, and support of the higher-ups, can all of them create exactly the field of play required?
Kind of an open-ended question, but I hope it is at least clear.
Peter,
I’m going to try to answer your question carefully. I think that there are guys to strive, each and everyday, to make the most with what they have and who they have around them. I, personally, think that given an even playing field, some superintendents still wouldn’t be able to provide the desire conditions. This may be because:
1. They do not get out and golf their course. (Which, to me, is VERY important)
2. Possibly they are afraid to ask others for help with turf issues
3. Get comfortable with their job and the condition of their course.
4. Family-I wouldn’t be able to do some of the things that I had if I family duties-games, dinners, etc….
5. Lastly, they may not want to start at the bottom of the latter as a spray tech/irrigation to move up into the top spot.
I decided at a young age to bite the bullet, take a pay cut and demotion to go to Long Cove, BUT I was at an age where I could-no family, no college debt. I cannot stress the importance of training a crew, training assistants, training interns. I think that is what really sets a lot of superintendents apart.
Peter
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Tony, those bunkers at Friars Head are world class and incredibly natural. My day there playing with John Bernhardt and a caddy was a blur of great golf holes, great terrain, wow.
My favorite bunker was that diabolical thing in front of the fifth green. Jeez, give me a break! Combined with the knob, that is amazingly difficult to get close to a pin in the front half of the green.
My two favorite holes there were probably the 7th and 14th, the holes that take you from the flatlands up into the dunes again.
You should certainly include construction/grow in at Friars Head on your resume if you haven't already!
What are the greens at Pine Tree? What's your experience been with Champion if any? Old standby Tifdwarf has worked well for us at Pensacola, so long as we don't overseed.
Bill,
A lot of guys that have Tifdwarf and switched to Eagle swear by dwarf. It's less maintenance intensive, requires less cultural practices, less of a thatch maker and you can buring it in sand and it loves it! I have not had any experience with Champion. I cut my teeth at Long Cove with Tifeagle, BUT it was overseed Nov-May. Here at Pine Tree, we have tifeagle greens, tees AND approaches.
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Tony, do you believe the bunkers such as those at Friars Head require significantly more (read: costly) maintenance? That seems to be cited quite frequently on here as to one reason most courses have more simplistic bunkering in terms of style.
I'll be perfectly honest - I have no idea what goes into maintaining a bunker.
What other things would surprise us golfers who have little or no knowledge of course maintenance work?
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1. Is Pine Tree open year round? If so, how does your job change during the hottest months?
2. Is having the course closed one day a week enough?
3. How important is communication with the green committee and/or the membership? Does the filter of the green committee help or hurt?
4. Any outrageous member complaint stories?
5. Silly question - how do you pronounce your last name?
Interesting reading about your connection with Railside. I used to travel to Bloomington, IL a lot and was supposed to play at Railside one time years ago and had something come up work-wise and I had to cancel.
John,
Pine Tree IS open year round, but in the summer we have less than 15 rounds a day in the summer and can do our necessary cultural practices. The biggest part, to me, is that we do all our cultural practices in the summer time to set up for winter play. We are closed BOTH Monday and Tuesday in August and September to allow us the time to get things prepared for the winter. From October to April, were closed Mondays till 10am so that we can topdress greens. I like to topdress lightly every week to keep them smooth and firm.
I think that you cannot communicate enough. In fact, I speak to my greens chairman almost daily, email pictures and have a twitter account for out of town members to see what were doing. My Greens Chair does a tremendous job of keeping the membership informed as to what is being done, he embraces the opportunity and really seems to love the responsibility. In fact, I think he thinks about the golf course operations as much as I do!
I really haven’t had too may outrageous member complaints, but I’m young!
My last name is pronounced like NICE, just spelled different.
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Tony, do you believe the bunkers such as those at Friars Head require significantly more (read: costly) maintenance? That seems to be cited quite frequently on here as to one reason most courses have more simplistic bunkering in terms of style.
I'll be perfectly honest - I have no idea what goes into maintaining a bunker.
What other things would surprise us golfers who have little or no knowledge of course maintenance work?
George,
I think that the bunkers at FH are less costly to maintain BECAUSE there is no need to maintain a laser like edge and Mr. Bakst likes them as natural as possible. They were built with the intension to maintain AS HAZARDS, not overly manicured. I would assume that the faces are cut back ever fall to allow for new growth the following season.
I wouldn’t guess that a lot of golfers know the different between walking mowing greens vs. tri-plexing greens. This is an age old debate between superintendents as to what is better. I swear by a walk mow for many reason, several being you don't lose the edge of the green as easily, you wont have hydraulic oil leaks, I think that you get a better cut, it allows members of the staff to walk on every green, which I BELIEVE, they see more things that are happening to the greens surface and not having the weight of a triplex during stress periods.
Most golfers wouldn’t believe how difficult and time consuming it to get firm, fast conditions-it's so much more than just shutting the water off.
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Tony, those bunkers at Friars Head are world class and incredibly natural. My day there playing with John Bernhardt and a caddy was a blur of great golf holes, great terrain, wow.
My favorite bunker was that diabolical thing in front of the fifth green. Jeez, give me a break! Combined with the knob, that is amazingly difficult to get close to a pin in the front half of the green.
My two favorite holes there were probably the 7th and 14th, the holes that take you from the flatlands up into the dunes again.
You should certainly include construction/grow in at Friars Head on your resume if you haven't already!
What are the greens at Pine Tree? What's your experience been with Champion if any? Old standby Tifdwarf has worked well for us at Pensacola, so long as we don't overseed.
Bill,
A lot of guys that have Tifdwarf and switched to Eagle swear by dwarf. It's less maintenance intensive, requires less cultural practices, less of a thatch maker and you can buring it in sand and it loves it! I have not had any experience with Champion. I cut my teeth at Long Cove with Tifeagle, BUT it was overseed Nov-May. Here at Pine Tree, we have tifeagle greens, tees AND approaches.
Do you overseed at Pine Tree?
As green chairman a few years ago at Pensacola, I led a group (including our young super) who fought hard to stop overseeding. Our longtime green chairman had stubbornly insisted on overseeding for many years. As a result you had a few months of green and two months of nightmare, September and April. All we overseed now is the driving range tee and the target greens. Everyone is happy. We dye the greens all winter, no complaints.
I have heard nothing but high maintenance about Champion, know nothing about miniverde.
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Tony,
You know that I am a big fan of Keith's work. I was very interested in a small portion of what you said about what was done at Coplonial, especially as it seems to fly in the face of both sides of one of the most contentious issues that golf clubs face today; tree removal - to do or not.
You stated that at Colonial, "trees were moved to recapture old shots..." Do I read that correctly? Trees were transplanted? If so, how was that proposal received by the membership? It seems like it could be a wonderful compromise solution in specific instances. What type of cost was invovled?
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Tony,
I will try to get out this fall and play the new Colonial. Historically, the greens went to hell shortly after the NIT around the time that the bermuda in the rest of the course reached its optimum condition. The greens some summers were so soft that a high approach hitting an upslope would plug at times. I've seen #1 and #3 with minimal grass coverage. I am glad to hear that Foster has done a great job and that the supertintendent is keeping the greens firm in the summer (though I heard from other sources that they were not in good shape this summer).
You are right about Foster and his renovation work. His work at Westwood CC in Houston is particularly good.
Questions:
1) how good a player are you?
2) how often do you play?
3) how important is it for a superintendent to play the golf course he is responsible for?
4) does being a good player help the superintendent in a meanigful way?
5) which do you like better, Colonial or Long Cove?
6) Dallas National or Friar's Head?
7) how often do you verticut Eagle? Roll? What is optimum?
8 ) will you be overseeding your greens? tees? fairways?
9) would you prefer not to overseed?
10) what is the #1 complaint you've heard from members? Legitimate?
11) what is the #1 complaint you hear from your colleagues regarding members?
12) what is your attitude about member suggestions? Helpful? Intrusive? A waste of time? Resent, but tolerate?
13) how important are communication skills in your work?
14) how much do you consider course setup on a daily basis relative to weather conditions, design, and nature of the day's play?
15) do many superintendents really understand architectural intent?
16) do many architects?
17) have you ever seen an explanation of how the architect wants the holes to play and maintained? Are you aware of any that provide this information (such as a list of pin placements)?
18) do you see yourself getting into golf course management and/or ownership? Design?
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Tony, those bunkers at Friars Head are world class and incredibly natural. My day there playing with John Bernhardt and a caddy was a blur of great golf holes, great terrain, wow.
My favorite bunker was that diabolical thing in front of the fifth green. Jeez, give me a break! Combined with the knob, that is amazingly difficult to get close to a pin in the front half of the green.
My two favorite holes there were probably the 7th and 14th, the holes that take you from the flatlands up into the dunes again.
You should certainly include construction/grow in at Friars Head on your resume if you haven't already!
What are the greens at Pine Tree? What's your experience been with Champion if any? Old standby Tifdwarf has worked well for us at Pensacola, so long as we don't overseed.
Bill,
A lot of guys that have Tifdwarf and switched to Eagle swear by dwarf. It's less maintenance intensive, requires less cultural practices, less of a thatch maker and you can buring it in sand and it loves it! I have not had any experience with Champion. I cut my teeth at Long Cove with Tifeagle, BUT it was overseed Nov-May. Here at Pine Tree, we have tifeagle greens, tees AND approaches.
Do you overseed at Pine Tree?
As green chairman a few years ago at Pensacola, I led a group (including our young super) who fought hard to stop overseeding. Our longtime green chairman had stubbornly insisted on overseeding for many years. As a result you had a few months of green and two months of nightmare, September and April. All we overseed now is the driving range tee and the target greens. Everyone is happy. We dye the greens all winter, no complaints.
I have heard nothing but high maintenance about Champion, know nothing about miniverde.
Bill,
We do not overseed anything here, other than the logo lawn. OUr memberhsip perfers the course to play fast and firm and I think it's just too difficult to give them those conditions withoverseeded grass.
Mini Verde is becoming a highly intensive grass as well...A LOT of grain reduction needed!
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Tony,
You know that I am a big fan of Keith's work. I was very interested in a small portion of what you said about what was done at Coplonial, especially as it seems to fly in the face of both sides of one of the most contentious issues that golf clubs face today; tree removal - to do or not.
You stated that at Colonial, "trees were moved to recapture old shots..." Do I read that correctly? Trees were transplanted? If so, how was that proposal received by the membership? It seems like it could be a wonderful compromise solution in specific instances. What type of cost was invovled?
Phillip,
The trees that were transplanted were trees that were already located on the golf course. A beautiful pecon that was once hidden by other trees was transplanted to the left of #18 fairway to overhang the left edge, to penalize those to try to cut the corner too much. The orginal tree was lost many years ago. In fact, it was planted right where Mickelson hit is wedge shot in 2008. We transplanted about 15 small oaks that cluttered the interior of the golf course and added some behind #13 green, left of the landing area on #1 for the long bombers, in the rough right of #2 fairway and in the rough left of #7, all planted near landing zones. The membership loved the movement of the trees and how well they fit into the natural terain of the golf course. Any tree removal was done during the renovation. (Left of #3 tee, #4 tee, behind #4 green, right of #7 tee, behind #8 green, etc... Overall, we moved about 35 trees at about $1k/tree
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1) How good a player are you?
I play to a 1, but haven’t played too much since my arrival at Pine Tree.
2) How often do you play?
I used to play twice a week and hope to get back into that routine.
3) How important is it for a superintendent to play the golf course he is responsible for?
I do not think that I would be able to relate with the membership if I didn’t play the product that they were playing.
4) Does being a good player help the superintendent in a meaningful way?
If you are at a club with a very good base of low handicap golfers-ABSOLUTLY
5) Which do you like better, Colonial or Long Cove?
Colonial is a better players course and you have everything laid out in front of you-COLONIAL, though I only played it 3 times…
6) Dallas National or Friar's Head?
Friar’s Head, BUT some of that is because it’s close to my heart. DN is REALLY, REALLY good, better than anything in Texas
7) How often do you verticut Eagle? Roll? What is optimum?
In the summer, we try to verticut 2 directions weekly. We roll everyday we single cut and roll some days that we double cut. Tifeagle just sucks with a single cut if you’re hoping to get any speed.
8) Will you be overseeding your greens? tees? fairways?
Nothing but the Logo lawn
9) Would you prefer not to overseed?
It took me while to get south enough to not have to overseed and be mostly green year round.
10) What is the #1 complaint you've heard from members? Legitimate?
Most golfers say the greens are never fast enough BUT many of the same golfers couldn’t put on greens at the speeds that wish.
11) What is the #1 complaint you hear from your colleagues regarding members?
I think that those who have a better attitude with there membership will be more successful
12) what is your attitude about member suggestions? Helpful? Intrusive? A waste of time? Resent, but tolerate?
I find most to be helpful. Each member has their own agenda, that’s why it’s so important to have a consistent Greens Chairman or BOD.
13) How important are communication skills in your work?
#1 thing, without hesitation
14) How much do you consider course setup on a daily basis relative to weather
conditions, design, and nature of the day's play?
We adjust our pin location and tee set everyday depending on the wind and its direction. If it’s been wet, well move the tees up to make up for the lack of roll in the fairways.
15) Do many superintendents really understand architectural intent?
If a superintendent has a love for architecture and is a golfer, they understand. I think that those superintendents that do understand are more successful and enjoy their work even more.
16) Do many architects?
I think that most do. I think that Jim Engh and Pete Dye are the 2 least friendly architects when it comes to helping out a superintendent, especially Jim Engh.
17) Have you ever seen an explanation of how the architect wants the holes to play and maintained? Are you aware of any that provide this information (such as a list of pin placements)?
In working with Keith, features were added to green surrounds because of certain pin placements. Now working with Bill Coore, we specifically made sure that there was certain number of pin locations on every green and in certain areas to highlight surrounding features or greens contouring. Much different going from an existing course to one that is still dirt.
18) Do you see yourself getting into golf course management and/or ownership? Design?
MAYBE design, because it’s something I’ve always be into, but I had my chance to go down that road and decided that maintenance was my direction…
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I think that you cannot communicate enough. In fact, I speak to my greens chairman almost daily, email pictures and have a twitter account for out of town members to see what were doing.
Sounds like a great application for Twitter. Is this something that you introduced down there?
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John,
I just introduced it to the membership about a week ago. the link is www.twitter.com/pinetreegrounds. I believe that it's a great was to communicate to that memberhsip that isnt around from May to October to keep them informed what practices are being done. I try to update daily.
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Anthony,
IMHO I think Pinetree might be the best golf course in Florida.....why don't people hear of it as they do the other "big names" down there.
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Anthony,
IMHO I think Pinetree might be the best golf course in Florida.....why don't people hear of it as they do the other "big names" down there.
Mike,
I have only been at Pine Tree for a short time, BUT I think part of it is that the membership enjoys their privacy, but I think that the last 2 renovations have taken away the Dick Wilson bunkering (Some thing that I hope I'm there for when they restore) possibly turning some people off. I dont belive the Pine Tree has a great ambassador. Beth Daniel and Meg Mallon carry the flag, but that may not get to the audience to keep PT in the spotlight more oftern. Honestly, other than a few changes to #10, Pine Tree is VERY close to how it was designed by Mr. Wilson, himself. It's too bad the last renovation didnt restore the bunkers in the WIlson fashion and it took away one of the best features of the course. I think the other big names on the block are Seminole and Jupiter Hills...I have yet to see Indian Creek, but am looking forward to it. I think that Bear's Club get notoriety because it's Jack's course and who lives there, The Medalist gets fame because it's Greg's course and McCarther because of it condition and green speeds
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Anthony,
IMHO I think Pinetree might be the best golf course in Florida.....why don't people hear of it as they do the other "big names" down there.
Mike,
I have only been at Pine Tree for a short time, BUT I think part of it is that the membership enjoys their privacy, but I think that the last 2 renovations have taken away the Dick Wilson bunkering (Some thing that I hope I'm there for when they restore) possibly turning some people off. I dont belive the Pine Tree has a great ambassador. Beth Daniel and Meg Mallon carry the flag, but that may not get to the audience to keep PT in the spotlight more oftern. Honestly, other than a few changes to #10, Pine Tree is VERY close to how it was designed by Mr. Wilson, himself. It's too bad the Bobby Weed decided to put his own style bunkers in and take away one of the best features of the course. I think the other big names on the block are Seminole and Jupiter Hills...I have yet to see Indian Creek, but am looking forward to it. I think that Bear's Club get notoriety because it's Jack's course and who lives there, The Medalist gets fame because it's Greg's course and McCarther because of it condition and green speeds
It's interesting you would say that, Tony. On another thread I mentioned how grievous it was that Rees had turned the fine Wilson bunkering at Cog Hill into Reeses Pieces. I think the changes to Wilson's design at Doral Blue have been an ongoing desecration. Now you bring in the changes to Wilson's bunkers at Pine Tree. This is a tragedy. Wilson is really underappreciated.
I'll never forget my first round at Doral Blue. The first hole was a 520 yard par 5. I hit a decent drive and a pretty good lay up to 100 yards. I stood out in the fairway and all I could see was the top of the flagstick and what looked like 2 acres of sand! The bunkers overlapped and the effect was overpowering. Great stuff.
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Anthony,
IMHO I think Pinetree might be the best golf course in Florida.....why don't people hear of it as they do the other "big names" down there.
Mike,
I have only been at Pine Tree for a short time, BUT I think part of it is that the membership enjoys their privacy, but I think that the last 2 renovations have taken away the Dick Wilson bunkering (Some thing that I hope I'm there for when they restore) possibly turning some people off. I dont belive the Pine Tree has a great ambassador. Beth Daniel and Meg Mallon carry the flag, but that may not get to the audience to keep PT in the spotlight more oftern. Honestly, other than a few changes to #10, Pine Tree is VERY close to how it was designed by Mr. Wilson, himself. It's too bad the Bobby Weed decided to put his own style bunkers in and take away one of the best features of the course. I think the other big names on the block are Seminole and Jupiter Hills...I have yet to see Indian Creek, but am looking forward to it. I think that Bear's Club get notoriety because it's Jack's course and who lives there, The Medalist gets fame because it's Greg's course and McCarther because of it condition and green speeds
Anthony,
Who and what has been done to Pinetree in recent years.....I think I may have told you before but my wifes father was supt at Indian Creek and she grew up there..he was also at Gulfstream and Everglades in your area....Indian Creek is good....I played the new JH and just could not get into the white sugar sand rough areas.....maybe that has changed since it reopened....be sure and look up Dick Gray down that way.....
Get er fixed up.... ;)
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Mike,
This is what I know-Ron Forse renovated the course in 1997 and did a decent job of capturing the Wilson style bunkering. Bobby Weed was called upon in 2005 to renovate the bunkers, tees, greens and regrass the fairways. Unfortunatly, the Wilson style bunkering was not restored. Unfortunately, that seems to be a theme with Wilson courses-Bay Hill, Doral, Cog Hill to name a few...I wonder why his work doesnt get more respect...is it because RTJ was designing courses that had similar features? I dont know....
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Mike,
This is what I know-Ron Forse renovated the course in 1997 and did a decent job of capturing the Wilson style bunkering. Bobby Weed was called upon in 2005 to renovate the bunkers, tees, greens and regrass the fairways. Unfortunatly, the Wilson style bunkering was not restored. Unfortunately, that seems to be a theme with Wilson courses-Bay Hill, Doral, Cog Hill to name a few...I wonder why his work doesnt get more respect...is it because RTJ was designing courses that had similar features? I dont know....
Anthony,
you know the old saying that sometimes too much money at a club is worse than not enough when it comes to preserving the old.....My opinion is that much of the elimination of wilson is nothing more than a pure sales job to unknowing memberships or resorts or developers....I have always enjoyed good wilson vs RTJ and thta is not to say I don't like some RTJ.....but I think the tides were against Wilson as his courses came up for renovations or redos and his work was often eliminated or covered.....JMO
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Tony, you are much younger than I had thought over the years reading your posts. You are obviously a real dynamo and a human sponge in sucking up knowledge and experience as you go. I imagine your being single and able to put in that kind of time (80-85 hours a week) is a benefit at this stage of your life. Your enthusiasm to communicate intensely with your membership is also extraordinary. Even your thoughtful and straight forward answers on this thread seem like they could be printed out and given to turf students at various schools. I'm sure the next 10 years will bring some amazing opportunities and maybe unforseen surprises (good ones) to you.
Just do guard against mental and physical fatigue. With a lifestyle like you describe, the rush of being on top of your profession can obscure other needs, that are important to know when they are a-callin. I think the best superintendents tend to manage most effectively from the top green side of the turf. ;) ;D 8) 8)
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A very wise post from Dick, everyone, but especially our younger posters, would do well to read it closely. :)
When I hear Pine Tree I always think of Hogan - does the club do much to reinforce this? Any special rooms, plaques, that sort of thing?
If the club was okay with it, it would be terrific if you could do a My Home Course piece on PT. I would certainly understand if you didn't want to, however.
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George,
There is a plaque behind #1 tee where Mr. Hogan stated "Pine Tree is the greatest flat course in America." To my understanding, Mr. Same Snead was on the grounds more often and even granted a honorary membership. There are several photos and clubs thoughout the clubhouse with his signature on it.
I would enojy doing a "My Home Course" on PT and done in the right taste, I'm sure the membership wouldnt have any issues.
Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL
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I would enojy doing a "My Home Course" on PT and done in the right taste, I'm sure the membership wouldnt have any issues.
That would be terrific, can't wait to read it.
What has been your biggest surprise from the theoretical world at MSU to the real world at several top golf clubs? Are there any changes you would recommend to the folks back at MSU to better prepare one for the real world of green keeping?
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Tony,
As a member of the 2001 class at Michigan State, your early successes do not surprise me, they just prove how great we are!!
As a new resident to south Florida (west side), I have noticed that unlike a courses just as far north as Orlando, the courses dont require much to stay green. To what do you credit this and do you have any saturation issues with the heavy, and daily, storms?
Also, since I am in Naples and you are in Boynton, do you think there is a bar in the middle of the swamp that we could meet up at to watch a State game this winter?
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Tony – well done with your success to date - hold on to that passion.
- Would you share with us your opinion of the XGD system?
- Push-up greens v usga?
- Bunker liners – do you feel there is a time and a place to use liners - and a time and a place not to - where / when?
- The most effective way ahead to achieve improved course sustainability?
Appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers - Lyne
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also Tony...
Any thoughts / opinions / experiences to share with regards forward tees?
Odd locations, grateful short hitters, unhappy members, greens committee issues, nuisance maintenance etc?
Thanks - L : )
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Lyne,
- Would you share with us your opinion of the XGD system?
I, personally, do not have any experience with the XGD system, BUT the superintendents that have installed it, swear by it. The courses that have installed it are mostly OLD courses with push up greens that do not want to risk changing the contours OR losing the existing grass. (Oakmont) From what I have seen, it appears to be a great way for the old, push up greens to compete with the USGA greens, while keeping the integrity of the original greens contours.
- Push-up greens v usga?
SO many people assume that USGA greens =perfect green surfaces all the time. TO ME, it only gives the superintendent an edge to begin with. It still needs to have proper cultivation methods done and after 10+ years of improper care, a USGA is no different than a push up. Friars Head’s greens are not USGA spec greens and I think that they turned out just fine!
- Bunker liners – do you feel there is a time and a place to use liners - and a time and a place not to - where / when?
We used liners last summer when I was at Colonial. The shape of the bunkers, their slopes and the sand used; there was no way that those bunkers could be built without a liner. IN fact, the old bunkers at C3 would wash out and fill up with water after .4” rain. The new ones can take what ever you can throw at them. Friar’s bunkers were built without liners. IN fact, I’d be interested to see courses if any courses with the natural style bunkering HAVE liners in them, because those bunkers have a tendency to “move” with time.
- The most effective way ahead to achieve improved course sustainability?
Cut out the crap-The valet parking, the armor alled seats and wheels on the carts, the fans and misters on carts, the starters, the club washer at the driving range, the manicuring fairway bunkers every or every other day-twice a week is plenty. Get rid of the merchandise manager and have the pros and assistants make the purchasing and lastly, ENCOURAGE a MUCH lower greens fee for walking, up to $50 off. At least people are out there playing.
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...and lastly, ENCOURAGE a MUCH lower greens fee for walking, up to $50 off. At least people are out there playing.
Pretty interesting, this is somewhat contradictory to all of the folks who claim cart revenue is crucial to profitability.
I love it when people think contrary to the accepted standards.
I'd think Rich Goodale would agree with that last statement, but he and I are required by this site's bylaws to disagree almost all the time, so that leaves us in a tough place...
:)
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George,
I will disagree with you (and Dick Daley). My advice to young Tony is to keep his nose to the grindstone while still managing the other important aspects of his life. I've yet to meet a really outstanding individual in any field of endeavor who only works the average work week. The best performers I've known do not look at long hours as hardship, but as the opportunity to achieve excellence and build their careers/business. Love of work is a blessing. Family is hugely important, but as you will learn soon enough to your dismay, your son will welcome your time less and less in favor of spending his with his friends. Anyways, the quality of the time spent with others is much more important than the amount.
Tony,
What do you mean when you say that you verticut in both directions during the summer weekly? Once a week, north or east, then south or west? I was under the impression that ultradwarfs required more frequent verticutting, say 2 or 3 times per week during the growing seasons.
Also, MSU put out a study years ago that greens should be rolled 4 to 5 times per week without causing harm or compaction. Does this apply only to bent, or to ultradwarfs as well?
You said you haven't had much experience with Champion bermuda, but it has been my experience from playing on this grass is that it is much superior to TiffEagle in terms of minimizing grain. The only ultradwarf greens I've played that resembled bent in terms of smoothness and the putt holding the line were at Whispering Pines during a drought. The Champion greens were extremely firm and fast, and absolutely perfect. Have you been satisfied with Eagle in regards to grain and thatch? Other than verticutting, is there anything that can be done to minimize the grain that I've see as a major problem with Eagle?
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...and lastly, ENCOURAGE a MUCH lower greens fee for walking, up to $50 off. At least people are out there playing.
Pretty interesting, this is somewhat contradictory to all of the folks who claim cart revenue is crucial to profitability.
I love it when people think contrary to the accepted standards.
I'd think Rich Goodale would agree with that last statement, but he and I are required by this site's bylaws to disagree almost all the time, so that leaves us in a tough place...
:)
I am assuming that Tony's position is from the standpoint of a maintenance professional with budget responsibilities. If he was the general manager of a profit center, I suspect that his views might be different. He did indicate little interest in being a GM. One can be more of an idealist not having to manage a bottom line or make a payroll.
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What do you mean when you say that you verticut in both directions during the summer weekly? Once a week, north or east, then south or west? I was under the impression that ultradwarfs required more frequent verticutting, say 2 or 3 times per week during the growing seasons.
Lou-Picture the hands on a clock. When we verticut here, (Or when I was at Long Cove) we verticut in a direction of 10 to4, then 4 to 10, 2 to 8, then 8 to 2. We just call it down and back twice on the same pass. Were actually verticutting the green 4 times. This really makes for a channel for the sand to get into and removes a lot of material. Now, we also groom 1-2 times a week and also brush 1-2 times as well, but only when the grass is growing enough to handle the stress.
Also, MSU put out a study years ago that greens should be rolled 4 to 5 times per week without causing harm or compaction. Does this apply only to bent, or to ultradwarfs as well?
We roll 5-6 times a week, BUT were are allowed to aerifiy and needle tines a lot as well, so I’m not worried about compaction. New studies show that rolling 5 times a week and mowing 3-4 are producing similar speeds and healthier turfgrass.
You said you haven't had much experience with Champion bermuda, but it has been my experience from playing on this grass is that it is much superior to TiffEagle in terms of minimizing grain. The only ultradwarf greens I've played that resembled bent in terms of smoothness and the putt holding the line were at Whispering Pines during a drought. The Champion greens were extremely firm and fast, and absolutely perfect. Have you been satisfied with Eagle in regards to grain and thatch? Other than verticutting, is there anything that can be done to minimize the grain that I've see as a major problem with Eagle?
GRADEN! This machine is a deep verticutter (over 1” deep) that removes A LOT of organic material and inserts dry sand directly into the channel. We used it here for the first time last month and I hope to use it twice last summer. We were able to incorporate another 65 tons of sand into our profile ONTOP of the 125 tops from the 5/8 tine aerification done 3 days before. Our greens have never been firmer.
To me, there is a reason that Eagle is more widely used….it was funded and promoted by the USGA AND was the first real ultradwarf to come out on the market. Eagle is the most difficult of the ultadwarfts to maintain. In fact, because of it’s thatch making abilities and several other reason, Seminole actually has installed champion this summer-I’m excited to get over there and see it as I’m sure it was done well
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George,
I will disagree with you (and Dick Daley). My advice to young Tony is to keep his nose to the grindstone while still managing the other important aspects of his life. I've yet to meet a really outstanding individual in any field of endeavor who only works the average work week. The best performers I've known do not look at long hours as hardship, but as the opportunity to achieve excellence and build their careers/business. Love of work is a blessing. Family is hugely important, but as you will learn soon enough to your dismay, your son will welcome your time less and less in favor of spending his with his friends. Anyways, the quality of the time spent with others is much more important than the amount.
A very thought provoking post indeed. I believe there is a happy medium, that you can have your family as priority #1 while still working hard toward your goal(s). It's up to every individual to find that medium and figure out how to make it work.
I also believe strongly in quality AND quantity. It's great to discuss quality, but quantity certainly has an effect all of its own.
At any rate, I would encourage Tony to take advantage of his independent time to build a strong foundation, and it sounds as if he is already doing so.
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Even though I am not asking any questions, I just wanted to chime in and indicate I really enjoy these threads.
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Even though I am not asking any questions, I just wanted to chime in and indicate I really enjoy these threads.
Thanks, Jason, don't be surprised when I come knocking on your door shortly...
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Tony,
What do you mean when you say that you verticut in both directions during the summer weekly? Once a week, north or east, then south or west? I was under the impression that ultradwarfs required more frequent verticutting, say 2 or 3 times per week during the growing seasons.
Lou-Picture the hands on a clock. When we verticut here, (Or when I was at Long Cove) we verticut in a direction of 10 to4, then 4 to 10, 2 to 8, then 8 to 2. We just call it down and back twice on the same pass. Were actually verticutting the green 4 times. This really makes for a channel for the sand to get into and removes a lot of material. Now, we also groom 1-2 times a week and also brush 1-2 times as well, but only when the grass is growing enough to handle the stress.
Also, MSU put out a study years ago that greens should be rolled 4 to 5 times per week without causing harm or compaction. Does this apply only to bent, or to ultradwarfs as well?
We roll 5-6 times a week, BUT were are allowed to aerifiy and needle tines a lot as well, so I’m not worried about compaction. New studies show that rolling 5 times a week and mowing 3-4 are producing similar speeds and healthier turfgrass.
You said you haven't had much experience with Champion bermuda, but it has been my experience from playing on this grass is that it is much superior to TiffEagle in terms of minimizing grain. The only ultradwarf greens I've played that resembled bent in terms of smoothness and the putt holding the line were at Whispering Pines during a drought. The Champion greens were extremely firm and fast, and absolutely perfect. Have you been satisfied with Eagle in regards to grain and thatch? Other than verticutting, is there anything that can be done to minimize the grain that I've see as a major problem with Eagle?
GRADEN! This machine is a deep verticutter (over 1” deep) that removes A LOT of organic material and inserts dry sand directly into the channel. We used it here for the first time last month and I hope to use it twice last summer. We were able to incorporate another 65 tons of sand into our profile ONTOP of the 125 tops from the 5/8 tine aerification done 3 days before. Our greens have never been firmer.
To me, there is a reason that Eagle is more widely used….it was funded and promoted by the USGA AND was the first real ultradwarf to come out on the market. Eagle is the most difficult of the ultadwarfts to maintain. In fact, because of it’s thatch making abilities and several other reason, Seminole actually has installed champion this summer-I’m excited to get over there and see it as I’m sure it was done well
"Eagle is the most difficult of the ultadwarfts to maintain."
That's why we chose the conservative approach of using old reliable TifDwarf, un-overseeded, for our greens, and 419 for our fairways and approach areas.
I have had three supers, from Scottsdale to South Florida, tell me that Champion is very difficult to maintain after the first couple of years, heavy thatching, highly maintenance intensive. I look forward to hearing how it goes at Seminole. I suppose they have the budget to do the amount of work that's required.
Thanks for all your time and enthusiasm on this thread, Tony. George has done a great service with this concept, and the industry guys are really coming through with a lot of candid commentary and responses.
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Bill McBride,
I don't mean to hijack Tony's thread, but I think that Champion might be getting a bad rap, though varying soil and climate conditions as much as budget may have something to do with it. Great Southwest Golf Club between Dallas and Fort Worth converted its Brauer designed bent (SR1020) greens to Champion some 8+ years ago and they are among the best bermuda surfaces in this part of the country. It is a low-budget operation, probably around $500,000 annually, and other than two deep tyne and two smaller aerations each year plus some light sanding, they don't do much more to them. They don't seem to verticut frequently, and to the best of my knowledge, they don't roll, brush, or groom them with any regularity. Not surprisingly, the members are generally happy with the greens, but complain about how often they're punched and top-dressed.
The biggest complaints I've heard about Champion in this part of the country is that they can get pretty firm and fast, that they are hard to overseed without really tearing up the dense canopy (to get the seed to the soil), and that water tends to run-off a bit fast requiring heavier irrigation for the high spots creating soft conditions elsewhere, particularly the approaches (most greens drain to the front around here). I've also heard some concern that Champion may not do well in cold conditions, so some transition areas may do better with a different hybrid.
Concerning Tiffdwarf, the greens at a local muni were rebuilt using this strain. Lower maintenance was the main reason for choosing it. Now that I've played the ultradwarfs including Miniverde for a number of years, there really is no comparison. Unfortunately for this course (and the superintendent who chose Tiffdwarf), the city's other more upscale course converted to Tiffeagle, and the muni players as well as a fairly prominent councilman who play both courses are demanding that they gas the Tiffdwarf and convert to Eagle. The architect who redid the course agreed with the initial choice of Tiffdwarf, but acknowledges that even this older, cheaper grass requires considerable maintenance. The bottom line is that you get what you pay for. If the golfers demand putting conditions approaching bent, the ultradwarfs is the way to go. From what I am told, we are talking about more ongoing expense, but as the Great Southwest experience suggests, it may not be a huge amount more.
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Just to make sure we are all clear....
Champion greens were the first ultradwaft to be able to be used in a "no till" form. Meaning, a golf course could remove their bentgrass, tifdwarf, old 328 or other, remove another 2-4 inches and then spring Champion. A process where you could close a golf course and reopen 6 weeks later with new grass WITHOUT changing the subsurface and at a low cost, especially a good decision if a course already had USGA greens. Tifeagle has just come out with the "no till" method in the last few years....
Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL