Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Joe Hancock on December 14, 2008, 06:41:49 PM
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...still have fun? (Or as Ed Getka might say, "still effectively interface with the architecture" ;D)
Seriously, have you pondered this? I wrote on another thread that one of the most enjoyable rounds of the summer was taking three clubs (putter, wedge, sand wedge) to a par 3 course with yardages ranging from 70-ish to 220+.
Is there great courses that one could still play and enjoy with, say, 7 clubs? 10 clubs? 3 clubs?
And, what is it that makes it so?
Joe
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I think you can enjoy any course with 10 clubs. Driver, FW, 3I, 5I, 7, 8, 9, PW, SW, putter.
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I have played maybe ten rounds in my life with only a seven iron and I have never shot over 85. The key is using versatile clubs in that for example I can hit a hook 7-iron 200+ yards, and a choke down soft 7-iron 100 yards if I have to.
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Joe,
I have played the Old Course with three clubs. A three wood, six iron and wedge. I putted with the three wood and was reasonably successful doing so.
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I've played with 1 club a few times--I can usually shoot about 40-42 when a course isn't too tough and I don't hit into a deep bunker or something with a 6-iron.
I played the front nine at Ballyneal with 4 clubs (3W, 7I, SW, Putter) and shot 36, which was one of my best nines of the year. It helped that there weren't forced carries, so if I came up short occasionally it was still a recoverable shot. Plus I made an 80 footer on #2 for a birdie ;D
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Funny to read this thread, as I just returned from walking 7 holes with a seven iron and a putter. I was eight over, including a three putt.
The best part was it only took me one hour.
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When I lived in colder regions of the country, I would always start my golfing year by playing a round or two with a 7 iron and putter to get my swing back.
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Ditto on Ballyneal. Last trip out there, I played the front 9 with only 7 clubs (sans caddie, so no GPS assistance, either). The course allows you to score in so many ways, regardless of how many clubs you have.
On that 9, I managed 5 birdies (missed a 4 footer for eagle) and missed a 6th on #9 from 8 feet. I call that a LOT of fun. :)
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Not to be incendiary, but can someone explain the attraction to playing a course w/ 10 clubs or 7 clubs vs 14 clubs?
Seems to me, if you are out to learn the architecture that sure, taking a wedge and a putter to learn different shots around the greens would be beneficial. But, if you are out to play golf, why is it "more fun" or "better" to play with fewer clubs?
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I play a lot of golf in the evenings during the summer with 7 clubs. My score usually doesn't change much.
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Not to be incendiary, but can someone explain the attraction to playing a course w/ 10 clubs or 7 clubs vs 14 clubs?
Seems to me, if you are out to learn the architecture that sure, taking a wedge and a putter to learn different shots around the greens would be beneficial. But, if you are out to play golf, why is it "more fun" or "better" to play with fewer clubs?
In my case because I don't always feel like carrying the whole bag around...one club or four clubs is a lot lighter, especially after you've already walked 18. We walked the nine holes at Ballyneal in a little over an hour.
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In my case because I don't always feel like carrying the whole bag around...one club or four clubs is a lot lighter, especially after you've already walked 18. We walked the nine holes at Ballyneal in a little over an hour.
That makes sense. I just dont understand the idea that somehow the game is better or more pure if fewer clubs are used.
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In my case because I don't always feel like carrying the whole bag around...one club or four clubs is a lot lighter, especially after you've already walked 18. We walked the nine holes at Ballyneal in a little over an hour.
That makes sense. I just dont understand the idea that somehow the game is better or more pure if fewer clubs are used.
I also wanted to prove a point once to my high school girls team, so I played their tees with them with a 6 iron a couple times. Only one of them could outdrive the 6-iron and the rest were pretty close to it off the tee, so it was a good exercise for us.
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I'd say at the most, we all really only need every other club. We can easily choke down or take a shorter swing to fill the gaps.
Driver, 3iron hybrid, 5iron, 7iron, 9iron, some type of wedge, and a putter would just about replicate a full set with some minor modifications.
I'd say 7 is well equipped, 4 for some creative fun, and fewer if you can putt with a non-putter (I personally cant pull off the wedge putt or wood putt that others do in a fairly capable manner.)
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...I just dont understand the idea that somehow the game is better or more pure if fewer clubs are used.
There is the satisfaction of generating shots out of the normal.
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I prefer to play with 8 to 12 clubs depending on time of year.
Keeps the bag lighter when the back is acting up.
I also think it helps work on shot making without really hurting the score.
That is why I do not mind playing with less than 14 clubs - also growing up with a half set until I was about 14 makes it seem less "strange"
As has been mentioned, you can have some cracking rounds with only 3 or 4 clubs and it is a lot of fun. Just depends on how often you get out and where you are playing.
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I've also done a few one-club practice rounds with my boys' golf team, and it had a big impact on the way they approach a round of golf.
I've enjoyed a number of one-club rounds myself, usually walking out of the shop at the end of the day with a co-worker and playing nine with a 6-iron only. It's a blast if you're on a course that otherwise plays a little bland, and can be extremely fun even if you're on a more difficult course.
We played the front nine of Greywalls once with full sets and both went double bogey/bogey on holes one and two. Frustrated at the conclusion of the round, we decided to play them both over again for kicks with only six irons. I went bogey/par and he went bogey/bogey.
It's a ton of fun if you've never tried it, and a tremendous exercise in shot-making and strategy. Try it in a match play format and it's a blast.
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I also enjoy playing with just one club on an occassional after dinner visit to the course. But to still feel like I am getting the full feel of the course, I want a driver (on some older shorter courses the driver can be left out and the 3 wood can be used), a putter and a sand wedge. From there I add a fairway wood, and a few irons. I think 6 clubs is the low end for me. With 6 clubs I would go: driver, putter, SW, 5wood, 5iron, 8iron. I have played a lot of golf with only 7 clubs (I like having both a PW & a SW in my bag).
I prefer to try to never play with more than 10 clubs, and I think that should be the limit in the rules.
To answer a prior post about why one prefers to play with less clubs, I prefer less clubs for the additonal challange of having to play a variety of shots. Rather than picking the club that matches the yardage and then making the same swing all day, I enjoy having to play an "easy 5 iron" for 150 yards, or having to decide where to try to run a shot onto a green.
There are other benefits to having less clubs. Less clubs makes buying equipment less expensive. Less clubs, makes the bag lighter, thus easier to walk, thus again making the game less expensive. Also, more walking means more health benefits from playing golf.
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I wouldn't say playing with less clubs is better or more pure, just another way to play this great game we all love.
Also, when I play with one club, I never find myself concerned with yardage at all. Just visualize the shot and hit it.
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...I just dont understand the idea that somehow the game is better or more pure if fewer clubs are used.
There is the satisfaction of generating shots out of the normal.
Maybe you should hit it sideways more often like me ;D Then you get the chance to hit all kinds of different shots from all over.
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I play quite often carrying (with no bag) just a handful of clubs (particularly in the evenings if I go out to Lehigh with my son to play for an hour or two). It is not a purist or macho thing. It's just fun and it forces creative shot making. Plus is saves my back not having to carry my bag.
One more thing, I can't name one course that I feel I would have to have all 14 of my clubs to be comfortable playing. If you play a lot of links golf, you know very well that 14 clubs is overrated. It is more about feel and creativity and hitting half shots, knock down shots, etc. Take out every other iron and a good player (most players) will be just fine!
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Not to be incendiary, but can someone explain the attraction to playing a course w/ 10 clubs or 7 clubs vs 14 clubs?
Put me in the camp of it simply being a lighter bag to carry for an extra nine or more. The MOST clubs I ever carry is 13 anyway.
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Is there great courses that one could still play and enjoy with, say, 7 clubs? 10 clubs? 3 clubs?
And, what is it that makes it so?
Joe
On the American courses I play that have an abundance of greenside rough and bunkers it's hard for me to imagine getting by with a really small number of clubs. I have played nearly all of 2008 with 10-12 clubs and rarely felt limited.
Driver, 18* five wood, 21* seven wood, 5,7,8,9, 10 hybrids plus "normal" GW and LW, and a putter. That's 11, and has been my stock set all summer. I currently am at 12, with a PW and SW instead of the Gap.
But on a links course where I could play it on the ground more I easily could to get around without so many wedges, and probably drop one of the irons.
I think that 7 or 8 is enough on a fast course.
K
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this reminds me of a story I heard Brett Quigley tell.
he didn't feel like he was playing well so for whatever reason he decided that in the next round (during official play of a PGA Tour event) he would never hit the club that was called for. meaning, if it was a 7-iron, he'd either rip and 8 or carve a 6. did that every shot of the round, shot a low number, and went on to win a lot of money that week. so I'd assume a half set would have been just fine as far as he was concerned.
we often talk about playing a round with2 or 3 clubs, but never actually do it for whatever reason.
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An older fellow in our men's club always played with only 5 or 6 clubs. He maintained about a 8-9 handi. He only recently started taking about 10 after knee failed him, and he is now in a cart.
I'd really like to see one of these silly season golf events have a competition with some pros with a half bag of clubs. It would be interesting to see which clubs various pros would select to carry and how it changes their strategy, not to mention shot making attempts. I'd also like to see them do this reduced clubs with RTJjrs suggestion that they eliminate tees.
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We used to play practice rounds in high school w/ just a 7 iron.....nothing else. It was fun until you got into a bunker.....blasting out backwards isn't the greatest of fun.
I'd say a 3w, 5/8/gap wedge and putter is pretty doable and could still have a really fun time without feeling that holes weren't totally unplayable.
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didn't seve shot Even par on the old course with a 3-iron...
man a wish they would have filmed that round and put it on a dvd
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I play year round with an odd set myself (e.g. Driver, 3W, 3i, 5i, 7i, 9i, GW, SW, LW) and enjoy the game just as much.
This mainly helps to develop feel and touch, but also because I find it annoying to lug more clubs. I think it works to an extent. I will admit to bringing in the 5W now and again for the longer par 3s where I just can't seem to throttle back enough on the 3W.
But I have to agree on a fast and firm course I could probably play with an even smaller bag. All about more distance control flexibility with fast and firm conditions.
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didn't seve shot Even par on the old course with a 3-iron...
man a wish they would have filmed that round and put it on a dvd
is that a true? wow, i so wish i had a high def dvd of seve!
i could probably take 3-4 clubs out of my bag and not see the difference.
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8) 5i, 8i, PW, putter, D & 4w make for hot summer fun
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Joe:
Here's an interesting little fact for you. In my tournament playing days I ran into a really really competitive player (in big time tournaments) who always played golf with what we used to refer to as a "stripped set". He was probably in the top echelon of competitive amateurs in Eastern Canada and he never competed with a full set. He always carried his own bag too---a little tube-like thing. That guy was really something to watch---he was really long and when he got to iron shots he would either draw it for a bit more distance or fade it for a little less because his irons went something like 3-5-7-9.
Only player I ever saw who did that in class A competition and Man did he do it well. Up there in Canada in those days was another player some of the guys I knew up there played a lot with who was apparently one of the most remarkable shot-makers golf has ever heard of for accuracy and everthing else. His name was Moe Norman. Apparently some of the tour players of the day like Crenshaw heard Moe was the best ball striker in the world and a few of them went up there to check him out and word was they were in no way disappointed with what they saw.
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didn't seve shot Even par on the old course with a 3-iron...
man a wish they would have filmed that round and put it on a dvd
is that a true? wow, i so wish i had a high def dvd of seve!
i could probably take 3-4 clubs out of my bag and not see the difference.
Thad Daber, who played at NC State, was one of the best with just one club. Several times he won a big one-club tourney that was held in NC for years. I remember seeing him on the charity outing circuit afterwards.
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1016344/index.htm
This article references the Seve/Trevino round at St. Andrews...says Seve shot 3-over for 9-holes.
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1127005/index.htm
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I have played the last two years, at my home course, with 9 clubs in my bag which is how many I want to carry. During that period my handicap index has fluctuated from .9 to 4.2 which is a range I can live with. Many times I let the bag room kids pick my clubs just to test myself.
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Ditto on Ballyneal. Last trip out there, I played the front 9 with only 7 clubs (sans caddie, so no GPS assistance, either). The course allows you to score in so many ways, regardless of how many clubs you have.
On that 9, I managed 5 birdies (missed a 4 footer for eagle) and missed a 6th on #9 from 8 feet. I call that a LOT of fun. :)
Sheesh!
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There is another active discussion on this site about the possibility of the USGA limiting the loft of wedges. I have appreciated the recent comments by some in golf (including Seve), that there is too much loft in some of the wedges being used by today's pros and that there should be a limit on the legally allowed loft. However, after reading some of the postings about this possibility it made me realize the logistical difficulty of creating, legislating and enforcing this type of rule.
PROBLEM:
Too many wedges in bag being used as “specialty clubs” and viewed by some as reducing shotmaking.
HISTORY:
In 1938 USGA created 14 club limit because pros had too many clubs in their bags, and some perceived this as reducing shotmaking.
SOLUTION:
Same as 1938. In 1938 20+ clubs was seen as too many for a competitive round of golf. The 14 club limit was enacted to correct this problem. Now the 14 club limit may be too high. Something less than 14 clubs may be needed. Thus 10 club limit is proposed.
DISCUSSION:
One of the reasons (among others) for limiting the allowed clubs to 14 was so that golfers did not just have a club created for every imaginable shot, but instead would have to use some clubs for a variety of different shots. This removed the benefit of carrying spare left-handed clubs by right-handed golfers for example.
With today's pros having as many as four or five wedges, each for a variety of specialized situations for shots around the green, it appears there may again be an "over specialization" of clubs in the pro's golf bag.
It would seem that the USGA could use this theory to change the rule limiting golf clubs from 14 down to 10. They could state that they are using the same theory they used when the 14 club limit was enacted, and in an effort to preserve the purpose and spirit of the 14 club limit, that they must now reduce the number to 10.
The good thing is that weekend golf can easily comply with this rule. No clubs in current existence need to be declared illegal. Most occasional golfers can not properly use the high-lofted wedges. As evidenced by prior comments in this discussion most have seen very little change in their scores. Yet those that have played with smaller sets, have found it easier to walk rather than ride (good for ones own health and for the environment) and have enjoyed the challenges presented with not having the "ideal" club at hand for a particular shot.
How would this affect the pro's bag? I would expect that they would start with 4 automatics: driver, putter, PW & SW (the driver may be close to a 2wood for occasional 2nd shots off the deck). The next 3 may be the 7, 8 & 9. The 8th club will be a choice between a fairway wood, hybrid or long iron (e.g. 2iron). The last two club may be between a long iron or mid iron (e.g. 4 & 6 irons?), or maybe just a 5iron, with than a 3rd wedge thrown (depending upon the course). However, I would be shocked to anything more than 3 wedges in a bag, and I would expect only 2 wedges would more common.
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I have played maybe ten rounds in my life with only a seven iron and I have never shot over 85. The key is using versatile clubs in that for example I can hit a hook 7-iron 200+ yards, and a choke down soft 7-iron 100 yards if I have to.
Pat - do people call you Tin Cup?
And man you must have putted darn well each time with said 7iron....
;D
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These responses remind me of the topic about how far you drive the ball ...
Pat - What do you normally score with 14 clubs?
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I've finished a lot of rounds with 10 clubs
Unfortunately I started them with 14
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I've finished a lot of rounds with 10 clubs
Unfortunately I started them with 14
DYING.
;D ;D
I assume you too always kept the trusty 7iron?
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at my club we have a 3 club championship every fall. Last year I played with a driver, 8 iron and putter. Shot 84 and won the event. Next day went out with 14 clubs and shot 86!!! Is there a lesson here?
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There is another active discussion on this site about the possibility of the USGA limiting the loft of wedges. I have appreciated the recent comments by some in golf (including Seve), that there is too much loft in some of the wedges being used by today's pros and that there should be a limit on the legally allowed loft. However, after reading some of the postings about this possibility it made me realize the logistical difficulty of creating, legislating and enforcing this type of rule.
PROBLEM:
Too many wedges in bag being used as “specialty clubs” and viewed by some as reducing shotmaking.
HISTORY:
In 1938 USGA created 14 club limit because pros had too many clubs in their bags, and some perceived this as reducing shotmaking.
SOLUTION:
Same as 1938. In 1938 20+ clubs was seen as too many for a competitive round of golf. The 14 club limit was enacted to correct this problem. Now the 14 club limit may be too high. Something less than 14 clubs may be needed. Thus 10 club limit is proposed.
DISCUSSION:
One of the reasons (among others) for limiting the allowed clubs to 14 was so that golfers did not just have a club created for every imaginable shot, but instead would have to use some clubs for a variety of different shots. This removed the benefit of carrying spare left-handed clubs by right-handed golfers for example.
With today's pros having as many as four or five wedges, each for a variety of specialized situations for shots around the green, it appears there may again be an "over specialization" of clubs in the pro's golf bag.
It would seem that the USGA could use this theory to change the rule limiting golf clubs from 14 down to 10. They could state that they are using the same theory they used when the 14 club limit was enacted, and in an effort to preserve the purpose and spirit of the 14 club limit, that they must now reduce the number to 10.
The good thing is that weekend golf can easily comply with this rule. No clubs in current existence need to be declared illegal. Most occasional golfers can not properly use the high-lofted wedges. As evidenced by prior comments in this discussion most have seen very little change in their scores. Yet those that have played with smaller sets, have found it easier to walk rather than ride (good for ones own health and for the environment) and have enjoyed the challenges presented with not having the "ideal" club at hand for a particular shot.
How would this affect the pro's bag? I would expect that they would start with 4 automatics: driver, putter, PW & SW (the driver may be close to a 2wood for occasional 2nd shots off the deck). The next 3 may be the 7, 8 & 9. The 8th club will be a choice between a fairway wood, hybrid or long iron (e.g. 2iron). The last two club may be between a long iron or mid iron (e.g. 4 & 6 irons?), or maybe just a 5iron, with than a 3rd wedge thrown (depending upon the course). However, I would be shocked to anything more than 3 wedges in a bag, and I would expect only 2 wedges would more common.
Excellent posting response. Well written and thought out.
In my experience, I have found that whether I play with my normal 10 clubs or with a limit of 14, my scores really are no different. Sometimes, my scores are better with 10 - 11 clubs, as I have less indecisiveness per shot.
I suspect reducing the bag # to 12 or 10 clubs would not affect most golfers (except less aching backs), but would cause the pros to rethink their games.