Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim Bert on November 12, 2008, 10:48:54 PM
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Kingsley Club has generated a good deal of discussion on this board. In hopes of continuing and enhancing the discussion, I'm starting this thread in the spirit of the Pacific Dunes thread I created earlier this summer.
(At this point, some of you will also note that I started and never finished a similar Bandon Dunes thread. That will be brought back to life and completed at the proper time. I found that Bandon Dunes wasn't generating the same interest from the peanut gallery and I also wasn't as passionate about completing it at the time.)
Part of the reason Bandon Dunes got derailed is that I was introduced to Kingsley Club this fall, and that course has dominated my gca thoughts since that time.
I will kick off one hole at a time and provide some brief commentary. I will also provide several photos of the hole in question for those that haven't had the pleasure of experiencing the course firsthand. Any and all are welcome to chime in with discussion or additional photos that you'd like to share.
In the interest of full disclosure, this will in no way be an unbiased review. I must admit I absolutely love this course. Kingsley Club is on the short list of the best courses I've ever played. I've only grown fonder of the course in the two months I've had to re-live the holes in my mind.
Hole 1 to follow. Enjoy!
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Hole #1 is a par 5
589 from the Gold tee
568 from the Black tee
Your day at Kingsley is jump-started with this power-packed par 5. From the first view of the hole from the clubhouse to the trek across the 18th green to the tee... from the options on the tee to the magnificent green... this is a great start.
I was fortunate enough to play the morning round with Mike DeVries. The first official gca question of the day was "This is really cool looking. Is the lower left fairway really a reasonable option?" Standing on the tee it looked like a no brainer to play to the right side of the bunkers. It seemed like there was plenty of width and the view and approach to the green would certainly be superior from the high ground. Not to mention that if you really plugged one from the right tee it looked reasonable to expect that you might get over the hill and enjoy a splendid turbo boost. I'll tell you that no matter what Mike responded there was no way I was going to be aimed anywhere but right. I got off the tee reasonably well in the right side of the fairway, confirming (based on a sample size of one) that the right side was the right play.
Well, that afternoon I got a second crack at the hole. The wind was blowing a little harder our way. I'm a lefty that generally hits a fade (on a good day) off the tee. I faded my second effort right into the nasty bunker pits from Hell. After a couple shots extracting myself from the bunkers, proceeding to make a triple bogey eight to open the round, and determining that there was no way I was ever going to reach that green in two anyhow, I was sold on the fact that the left side was a reasonable option for me. It's a safer play for someone that hits the ball right to left. If you don't hit the ball far enough to roll over the mountain or to reach the green in two, then consider the left side a valid option. Just accept that when you stand on that tee for the first time, you too will take the right side option whether or not it is the correct play for you. Given a third shot at this hole, I'd probably still hit to the right side even though it doesn't make the most sense.
While the bunkers get all the attention from the tee, the entire fairway serves as a great preview of what the course has in store for the golfer. The movement is wonderful throughout, and the golfer would obviously benefit from multiple plays here. It's a fantastic members course, but playable and enjoyable for the guest as well.
The first green holds plenty of interest as well, though the golfer has no idea what's in store for him on the green complexes to come. The first is a memorable starting hole that in my opinion must be considered alongside great opening par 5s like those found at Sand Hills and Spyglass.
Thanks in advance to John Mayhugh for supplementing my photo collection. The tour I will present is a combined effort.
The view from the clubhouse
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king1fromclubhouse.jpg)
A view from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/1Tee2.jpg)
Another view from the tee widescreen style
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king1teews.jpg)
If your tee shot creeps back down the fairway you may be left with this intimidating second shot over the mini-mountain
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/1Fairway.jpg)
A view from the right side of the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king1fwy.jpg)
the approach
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/1Approach.jpg)
The approach from closer to the hole
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/1Approach3.jpg)
A nice look at the green from the side view which reveals the contours
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king1greenside.jpg)
Another angle of the green that shows off the movement
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/1Lookback2.jpg)
Finally, a widescreen look back on the first from the 2nd hole
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king1from2teews.jpg)
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Tim,
No comment except to say thanks for starting the thread. THis is a course thatI have always been interested in and a detailed analysis sounds like a brilliant idea.
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Tim,
Thanks for starting this thread.
The 1st is one of my favorite openers, and admittedly I have a fond memory of playing it with Dan Lucas and Mike DeVries. I flew the central bunkers, got a huge bounce down the slope, hit my second to about three feet, and made eagle. I won't mention what happened after that...
I think Mike grumbled something about needing a new tee, but got his revenge shortly thereafter ;D I believe we were playing from the "Black" yardage, it certainly wasn't any longer than that.
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Whose brilliant idea was it to stick those bunkers right in the way of where your supposed to hit it? ;D ;D
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Tim:
Agreed.
The 1st at Kingsley gets you off to a rousing start -- sort of like an Indiana Jones movie -- you don't have a second to settle back in your seats.
Only thing I would also mention - is how well Mike DeVries did with the 1st at Greywalls at Marquette GC. One can have a very interesting debate on which hole is the better.
Final item -- the aggressive play is to take on the center-placed bunker with a slight draw. Tim, I hear your comments but if you have someone who can hit it in the range of 280+ -- and the wind is not in your face -- then the right side is THE place to go for all the benefits you mentioned. No doubt a mishit can spell the situation you so correctly noted.
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Ooh, a Kingsley picture thread, is this Christmas?!?!
Tim, you're the man. Great pictures. I can't wait to hear more and more from lots of other players.
As far as that left side of the fairway... Im not a big fan. I was hitting some pretty powerful draws the two rounds I had. Just wanted to start it on the far right side of the huge fairway and let it go where it goes. From the back tees, I cleared the bunkers, barely. The left side trees blocked any look at the green (not that I was going for it anyway, 260 or so out). Had to hook a 7 iron hard to get back into the fairway. Next trip around, we played a set up, cleared the bunker again and ended up only a few yards past where I was earlier. Still had to lay up even more with a PW, then a 4 iron that didnt get up the hill. IMO, left isnt the way to go unless you short of the bunkers, then the trees are a little out of the way. Next time out, the right side of the fw is where I'll really want to be.
Cant wait to talk about #2... ;D
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Tim,
Thanks for starting this thread.
The 1st is one of my favorite openers, and admittedly I have a fond memory of playing it with Dan Lucas and Mike DeVries. I flew the central bunkers, got a huge bounce down the slope, hit my second to about three feet, and made eagle. I won't mention what happened after that...
I think Mike grumbled something about needing a new tee, but got his revenge shortly thereafter ;D I believe we were playing from the "Black" yardage, it certainly wasn't any longer than that.
Mike had us playing primarily the gold tees though we mixed it up a bit. He said that we were going to play "from the tee on each hole that he felt was most interesting." At least now I know we have you to thank for that. Apparently that was code for "from the tee where we were least likely to make eagle." ;)
He found out quickly enough that he didn't need to worry about eagles with our group, and we were just thankful he wasn't rushing us up to the front tee after the first couple of holes!
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Thanks for the thread, Tim. I look forward to learning more about this course.
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I'll add more as we along, but I had an eagle, birdie, par, bogey, double, and X in the first six holes of that round (2nd of the day). I did fly the bunkers the first time two (given two tries I believe as the first shot of the day).
My swing has deteriorated greatly the past couple of years...I can't even hit a fairway anymore period!
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First off, I couldn't be more excited for this type of analysis on the Kingsley Club...I'm not sure how I missed it until now. Thanks Tim!
Here are a few more pictures from the Kingsley Club website (hopefully I'm not infringing on any copyrights or anything, this is for the advancement of the club! :))
Standing on the first tee at Kingsley looking down #1 you know you're in for something special. I agree with the rest that the right side (or over) of the bunkers is the place to be with the drive. Not only do you get a good look at the rest of the hole, you also have the advantage of being substantially more elevated than the left side.
My only issue with the first is that if you find yourself too far on the left off the tee (yet still in the fairway), you don't have enough room to recover to get yourself in any type of reasonable shot to the green for your third shot unless you can hit a 160+ yard shot that hooks 90 degrees.
This first green complex is awesome and definitely a hint of what is to come. If you find yourself above the hole with the pin on the small finger at the front of the green, good luck, you're in for a wild ride...
another view from the tee
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/11.jpg)
This is the view from around 50-60 yards short of the green I think. As you can see from the difficulty this shot creates, I would prefer to be somewhere in the 100-120 yard range for my third
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/12.jpg)
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Tim,
Did Mike mention why he decided not to bunker the ridge that cuts into the fairway from the left, in the second shot landing area?
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Thanks for starting this thread..I'm in...
Great opening hole in preperation for many more to come.
Without the prevailing wind you can knock it over the traps from where the ball nicely collects into a favourable flat area....
However, I have only played it once under those conditions.
Then is the challenge...lay up with something shorter than the driver..or..challenge the right side.
The smart play lay up and play it is a true 3 shotter...but that ego thing!
The appraoch into the green is also very challenging...the pin location and the need to hit the ball into the correct quadrant of the green make this such a great shot.
Miss the green significantly left or right and you have an almost impossible chip shot....great green comlex..
great starting hole.
Bring on number 2..what a gem!
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I do wish the new feature allowed slightly bigger pics than 200K, but these are better than nothing.
These are great threads, Tim! Thanks!!
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One of the best opening holes in my golf world. Especially from high upon the back tee. About a 235 yard carry over the nest of bunkers.
The green is really tilted, and the proper approach shot yields a short birdie putt for many of the pin placements. The back right pin is by far the hardest. Never go beyond the front pin, as you risk sudden death! Well, an 80-90% chance of three putt anyway.
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Finally a MICHIGAN RELATED thread :P
Tim: Thanks for the thread
Matt: When I first read Tim's post I immediately was thinking the same thing in re Greywalls opener. Not to distract from the thesis of this thread, but I'm glad you mentioned it. Would be interesting to do a comparison piece on the two holes / courses in another thread. I'm not sure which I like more yet, do you have a preference?
As far as my experience relates to this hole, I must say that I too prefer the right side of the fairway (I'm sure everyone does). I've been buried left before, and there is just no recovery over there. I've also blown it out right (just right and way right) and you've got a chance to advance the ball and set up a reasonable approach. I've bombed it over the bunkers a couple times and enjoyed as Tim said a "turbo-boost" down the hill and into the flat some great distance from the tee. I quite like a long iron / hybrid shot from just over 200 in this situation, with the great kick plate right of the green the goal for me is to play a lower trajectory runnin type shot up the right side and let the land take the ball onto the green surface. Otherwise it's not a bad recovery from over there or just short of the surface. The green is double (triple?) terraced with plenty of slope / contour. When approaching in three I would argue distance control is as important as accuracy. When you're on the wrong tier, it makes for tough lag putting, esp. when you're ABOVE THE HOLE LOCATION. All and all a wonderful opener and a great introduction to the golf course / land / style (mad scientist) / difficulty / fun / ball-breaking / rewarding experience to one of the great courses built in the modern era.
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Interesting comments on the left side. It looked appealing to me after being in the bunkers but I didn't get the sense that those trees were going to block me out to the degree that many of you are commenting. Maybe it is because I can hit the low slice hybrid. Do you all think the left would become a better option if a few of those trees on the left were removed to better open the line of play? It is a fabulously wide fairway and I hate to think that the less desirable option (already less elevated and less direct) is also less safe. In that case it would seem to leave the left side to catch accidents only.
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I think it depends on HOW FAR you smack it down the left. I think for a short to medium length hitter or a long hitter who wants to hit a fairway wood off the tee it's not necessarily a bad option. But for me, if i try and crush a driver and take that hill, and miss it left, well its not good.
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That is really a dramatic false front. If you are just a t-e-e-n-y bit short on your approach, oh my what a false front disaster awaits. Or so I recall.... :P
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I think it depends on HOW FAR you smack it down the left. I think for a short to medium length hitter or a long hitter who wants to hit a fairway wood off the tee it's not necessarily a bad option. But for me, if i try and crush a driver and take that hill, and miss it left, well its not good.
Dave has got it right here. The farther back you are the more wiggle room you have concerning the trees as far as your options to get around them. However, if you get up close to them you can be in big trouble; most likely playing sideways out around them leaving a 180+ yard shot uphill in to this green. And believe me, you definitely want less than that going into this tricky sucker.
I'm not sure how I feel about the trees, I've actually never been down there in my three rounds at Kingsley (my miss is to the right usually) so I have no personal vendetta against them. I have seen other people do battle though...
Here is the ariel map from the website for further reference:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole1diagram.jpg)
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Dave - your comments are more in line with what I originally thought. I have no problem with the trees blocking you out if you are a big hitter and stray too far left. For someone that can carry those bunkers a high percentage of the time the fairway is plenty wide to penalize the WAY left miss.
As long as the safety bail left option isn't obstructed for someone that isn't trying to blast over the hill, then I think the fairway is perfect.
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First double of the day. Many more to follow as Tim's thread progresses.
I love The Kingsley Club. I especially love that first green complex. Getting there is only half the fun.
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I still think that going right is the ideal play.....
But, the bunkers are very penal
A big miss left is death
A short hitter down the right, who does not get it far enough up the hill will be faced with a blind / semi-blind second shot, which again is no cup of tea
Plus, lets not forget the WIND!!! or if your like Mr. Devries, you don't have to worry about the wind, just hit it low ;)
NEV
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Tim, spotting this thread today made my week.
Kingsley is worthy of such a thread indeed.
I played the course five times in July, and I cannot wait to return. In fact, we've realigned our yearly 8 man ryder cup to take place at Kingsley this June. Many are GCA Lurkers, I hope this thread provides them with an understanding of just how special a course it is.
I agree, the first is one of the greatest opener's I've ever played. I've not played Crystal yet, but I understand that the bunker complex defending the tee shot are at a minimum based on, if not an homage to the fifth hole there. I'm sure there are a few here who have played both many times. Is KC reminiscent of CD?
I have to add, the conditions I played in were nothing less than superb. The ground game is alive and well at KC, despite what Dye says about the state of that game in America.
It is going to be a long winter...
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I would consider Kingsley to almost be a tribute course to CD. Obvioulsy there are many connections between the two clubs. Fred Mueller HP at CD consulted on the design work and I think Mike Devries is a member or used to work there for many years.
I think the entire course could be considered a homage and I think that it's probably worthy of it's own thread. The man who could really answer these questions and provide some true insight is the one and only Mike Devries. I was thinking about the similarities of the two courses my last time out there, and I wish I would have posted then because these thoughts are no longer fresh. If you played both courses on consecutive days or rounds, you would easily spot a few. Maybe we'll start a new thread once this one is over, but I'm glad to see this thread pop up, finally something I can speak to with REAL first-hand knowledge.
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I too hope that Mike will chime in on this thread at some point if he has the time. I started this thread with his blessing.
My take on the relationship to Crystal Downs is that there are clearly some ways Mike was influenced by CD. I think the same could be said of Tom Doak at High Pointe. At the same time, I would not consider either of these courses to be tribute courses. To do so (as great as CD is) would not serve justice to either course and the original holes and ideas that are plentiful at each.
One can't help but notice the broad-brush similarities in routing of the three in terms of front nine more intricate and inter-woven and back nine meanders through the woods, but there are plenty of differences as well.
Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding. One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least two of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.
If it isn't yet obvious I walked away from this course feeling almost as strongly as Shivas feels about Rock Creek. And that's saying something.
Looking forward to the continued discussion.
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I was playing in the Peninsula Cup a couple of years ago with a guy who could really play, a former club champion at Oakmont in Pennsylvania. He had trouble off the first tee, but managed to get it to the front right of the green in three shots. The pin was back right, and as I cringed on the inside, he picked it cleanly with a wedge, pitching the ball to the back and spinning it to a stop two feet away for a tap-in par.
After the shaky start, he got hot and was really playing by the back nine. He must have shot 67 on his own ball that day, which is close to, or even equal to, the course record.
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Tim
Well said. I would not assume to say that it's a TRIBUTE COURSE, and in no way did I intend to take anything away from KC. As you pointed out there are many similarities and I do think that Mike's style has no doubt been influenced by CD and other Classical values of architecture. There are some small similarities, the challenge and tilt of the greens. To say Kingsley is a better course is a matter of personal opinion, and yes, I myself can see where you're coming from. I think the biggest similarity is variety, and even more so the day to day variety. I figure out / find something new every time I'm there. It was interesting to me to play a round with Mike, and see him attack his own creation. Particularly, the short par 4 13th, but I'll save that story for when we get there. These courses are playable for everyone, and everyone will play it differently. They don't favor a certain type of player (except for maybe the exceptional putter) and everyone from scratch to high handicap will struggle and vice versa. But each takes mulitple plays for one to feel comfortable and learn particularly you limits. A player is going to make bogeys and doubles and x's but they're going to be intersting bogeys to say the least. I could go on and on and on about the my own victories and stuggles at each course. To sum it up, I think they are perfect compliments to one another,they are easily comparable and similar, yet different in there own right. If someone asked you, what course would you say is truly comparable to CD what would be your response? If someone asked you to direct him to the closest copy of KC where would you send him? Furthermore, to say that KC is a tribute course takes away from the original holes and ideas throughout was not my intention. In fact it was an attempt to pay respect and the highest compliment I could think of using the contrast and compare argument.
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I did hit two balls off the tee the first time. I overhooked the first one a bit and it took the slope left into the trouble--I don't believe we even found it. For a longer hitter, it makes them think twice about blasting it, not to mention the bunker complex itself. Great opening hole, lots of options right off the bat. One of the five best openers I've played (not sure what the other four are off the bat, but it has to be there--Crystal Downs would be too).
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Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding. One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.
Tim,
It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement. It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.
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Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding. One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.
Tim,
It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement. It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.
Funny you say that because the other person that shares my view plays left-handed as well.
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I'll own up to the opinion Tim references and without shame note that I preferred Kingsley to Crystal Downs, but I loved and appreciated the opportunity to play both.
KC hole #1 is just the start to an exhilerating round of golf. Good shotmaking is rewarded, options are presented, and those of us playing so badly that our only justification for playing golf is for fitness reasons get some good exercise going down and up and down and up.
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I think there is some justification for those who prefer KC to CD. I dont agree with them but I think that there is a legitimate argument to be made that the disparity between the front and back nines (in terms of interest and architecture) is less at KC than it is at CD.
That being said, we are talking about going from an 11 to a 10 and from a 10.5 to a 10. CD only seems greater b/c of the superiority of the front nine.
Considering their proximity and their greatness, I think its impossible to not compare/contrast.
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JC
Agree. All four nines are outstanding. If I were forced to choose a front nine CD wins. Back nine KC wins. To me the deciding factor is that KC front nine is a closer match. What Mike was able to do with the back nine after having to follow up his own routing genius on the front nine blew me away. Most of my favorite holes on the course are on the back nine even though the front nine could be seen as superior as a set.
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Tim
I think the front nine is the superior set b/c it doesnt have any holes that allow for much questions whereas the back, although it has some great holes, does have one or two holes that dont live up to the rest (15 & 17) come to mind although its been 16 months since I've played it.
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I played Crystal and Kingsley back to back, although we played 36 at Kingsley and 18 at CD. When I first put them into my list I had Kingsley ahead--barely. After a little while to think about it I changed my mind and went with Crystal Downs, but its closer than many would give it credit for. I'm not surprised that one could prefer Kingsley
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I really liked 15, but I understand it draws some strong opinions in the opposite direction. As for 17 it is certainly different but I have never seen a hole of that scale (combination of width with the new fairway and the absurd up and down and up) and it thought it was pretty cool. We are getting way ahead of ourselves! I will post #2 over the weekend.
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Damn, you guys are making me home sick. Had one visit in the spring and never got back again this year.
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Kingsley is a great, great golf club. I had the pleasure of playing 36 back in July of this year.
The first is a classic risk/reward hole which gives you multiple options and lines of play. Those bunkers are death. If you manage to carry them, you can get home in two. However, if you don't carry them, you're looking at a one stroke penalty, maybe more. Those bunkers are deep. I should know, I was in the second one in round # 2. Painful to the scorecard.
I also like how the hole narrows and rises as you go. The more aggressive you play your second shot, the more trouble you bring into play.
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It can't be emphasized enough how Dan Lucas and crew maintain Kingsley. It's truly an ideal MM.
Crystal has just a few rough spots(in the rough), where recovery is impossible. It makes one wonder why the club doesn't go all out and eliminate or minimize. Until one realizes that this is 2008 and we are in America and the mindset of many is so clouded by the need for difficulty/penality.
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Adam,
I couldn't agree more. Kingsley Club is one of the best, if not the best, maintained courses I've ever played. And by best maintained I don't mean Augusta-like, I mean firm, fast and excellent playability. The fairways ROLL out, making all the movement in them actually mean something. The greens are kept at the perfect firmness and speed where they are perfectly challenging and playable; right on the correct side of playable/non-playable. Also, the scrub or long natuarl areas are more of a 1/2 stroke penalty than a full stroke and/or lost ball; and I really like that. You can most often find your ball in the hay, and a decent % of the time advance it pretty well, and other times only 40-60 yards. I think this is extremely better than the super thick stuff around some courses where finding a ball is lucky enough, let alone being able to get a club on it.
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You guys are stealing all my thunder with the maintenance meld comments. I agree it is the best I have seen. I imagine Ballyneal is close based on comments I have read, but my one day there was before the course could have been expected to be in a mature state.
I attribute KC success to Mike, Dan, and the crew and the constant communication and discussion that takes place on a regular basis. It can only help that it also happens to be the home course of the architectand that he has a strong relationship with the super. I have never played a course where the conditions felt more in tune with the intent.
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It can't be emphasized enough how Dan Lucas and crew maintain Kingsley. It's truly an ideal MM.
Crystal has just a few rough spots(in the rough), where recovery is impossible. It makes one wonder why the club doesn't go all out and eliminate or minimize. Until one realizes that this is 2008 and we are in America and the mindset of many is so clouded by the need for difficulty/penality.
I never got the sense that the mindset at Crystal was reflective of the general golfing public. Then again, I've only played there once and the member I played with is also a member at Kingsley...
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Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding. One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least two of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.
I'm unable to commit to liking one course over the other. Each is pretty special. It was great to be able to play the two courses on back to back days. Kingsley (like Ballyneal) does show that modern golf course design can certainly compete with the classics.
The opening tee shot is one of my favorites. It gets you in the right frame of mind for the wild journey ahead. I was scared of the left fairway because of the slope towards the trees and opted to go right each time. It just felt like the slightest pull would end up in trouble.
One additional picture here. Great place to sit and relax. That is if you can keep from rushing back out to get in more holes.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/kingsley/kingchairsedit.jpg)
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Thanks, Tim, for the pics and you and others for the comments. I've only played Mike D's The Mines, but I see (or think I see) some similarities. One is that Mike seems to like canted fairways, both for their aesthetic and their shot-making qualities/demands. I really like canted fairways, but don't come across them very much for some reason (even on courses/sites where the surrounding countryside has noticeable slopes/cants). The other is a more subtle similarity, and that's the sense of 'ease' and 'grace' that seems to characterize his work, i.e. he manages to make the finished product (and its bunkers and greens etc) seem effortless....if you know what I mean.
Peter
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Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding. One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.
Tim,
It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement. It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.
Funny you say that because the other person that shares my view plays left-handed as well.
I play left-handed too, but have never played here -- looks like I need to bump this up my list!
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Here's a look at #1 from behind the green that gives an idea of the options of playing left off the tee. After having a drive into the wind roll half-way back down the hill on the right, I may give it a try into a good wind the next time.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/1DPlassman.jpg)
A good story on the club from Links in 2004 about how the course came to be.
http://www.kingsleyclub.com/DIRpress/LINKSMagazine.pdf
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I never got the sense that the mindset at Crystal was reflective of the general golfing public. Then again, I've only played there once and the member I played with is also a member at Kingsley...
I wouldn't presume to get the membership's mindset, from a few native areas which are not maintained lean and mean. My comment was descriptive of the course and not meant as indictment of anyone.
The fairways and greens at CD were kept as well as TKC, and likely better due to maturity.
These two courses, and Greywalls, were the only Michigan courses I saw on my 2 weeks in the state that had Ideal Maintenance Melds. Sadly, nationally, that's probably a pretty high percentage. :'(
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I like a par 5 opener, and this one is exceptional. Add my thanks to the pile Tim.
Speaking of maintenance meld, however, am I the only one who wonders if the long nasty grass around the center bunkers is really necessary? (And yes, I am an embittered golfer who watched a slightly errant tee shot hop in there, never to be seen again...)
Aren't the bunkers penal enough all by themselves for those who miss the right or left by a bit?
Couldn't the grass be made playable, a 1/2 stroke penalty, instead of lost-ball deep?
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Hole #2 is a par 3
161 from the Gold tee
140 from the Blue tee
As one walks off the first green still astounded at the width of the first hole, the 2nd hits you like a ton of bricks for a couple of reasons.
The first reason is sensory overload. You step up to the tee and most of the front nine unfolds before you. The fifth green is in plain view (and pay sttention because it won't be when you play the 5th!) The third and fourth fairways lay just beyond the 2nd. Turn to your right and you can see the knee-knocking 6th tee shot in all its glory. The entire 1st is sprawled out behind you. The front nine comes together right here, and yet there's probably a fair chance you won't see another group when standing here.
The second reason is that the 2nd tee shot is terrifying for one of such little distance. After playing a couple loose shots up the fairway of the first, all of the room to miss is suddenly taken away from you. Yes, you will be hitting a mid or short iron, but that is no consolation standing on the tee. You see more long grass and bunkering than you do green. This is a hole where all but the most adept golfers should aim for the middle and hope for the best. I can't imagine the shot with the wind howling. We played in a fairly mild breeze both rounds.
As long as you don't miss short, long, or to either side of this green, you have a good shot to make par.
The view from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/2Tee.jpg)
Another view from the tee zoomed closer on the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/2Tee2.jpg)
The front of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/2GreenFront2.jpg)
From behind
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/2GreenBack.jpg)
Another looking back
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/2Lookback.jpg)
A skyline view of the 2nd from the 4th demonstrates the intimacy of the front nine
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/2Greenfrom4Green.jpg)
The view of the 6th (on the right) and the 4th (on the left) from the 2nd tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king2teeviewws.jpg)
The view of the 4th (foreground) and the 3rd (background) from the 2nd tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king2teeviewws2.jpg)
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The second hole at Kingsley might be the most demanding par three in the game.
It is certainly among the top 5 best short par threes in this country, and probably on the globe.
The closest parallel I can draw is number 11 at Shinnecock in terms of exactitude required, and severity of possible penalty incurred without taking a drop.
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I only played kingsley once well I will rephrase that twice in one day. First time around(hole 2) I put it in the left bunker with a front pin, the member say's to me good luck. Well I was able to get up and down after making my 5 footer and the member did get me that corona he promised.... Tim thanks for bringing back a fun day at kingsley. That course has stayed in my mind for over a year now. I love the way you drive up a dirt road in the middle of nowhere ,than start smiling with anticipation as you can't wait to see what comes ahead. Than you come upon the small but adequate clubhouse and that smile turns into a big dopey grin as you make your way to the first tee. When I was done I couldn't wait to go right back out,and that's exactly what I did. Kingsley left a lasting impression.
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Does anyone have a photo of the swale off the right side of the front of the 2nd green? For anyone to understand this hole without having played it, they need to see the depth of that area, it is as intimidating as any water hazard I've seen when the pin is up front.
Mike's comment about amount of potential penalty without taking a drop is truly in effect here. I would guess to a rear pin the hole wouldn't be nearly as intimidating.
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Andy, here you go! This is what you'll see when you miss the green on the right side by one foot going after a front pin...
This is your walk up to the green, and...
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_3657.jpg)
umm, don't try to be cool, just aim for the middle of the green!
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_3620.jpg)
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Here are a few more pics from the website...hopefully they will show the sevarity of the hole better. The hole drops off sharply left and right. To the left, sharp teirs of deep, penalizing bunkers await. To the right, a deep swale/collection area that gobbles up balls and makes recover a very delicate undertaking. You're a fool to go at the front pin postion (or very confident). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't have more than 3 yards of space left and right of the flagstick to miss...It has to be that perfect. I've heard members and pros affectionately call this hole the shortest par 5 in the world. The first time playing it you will laugh at the phrase; but then when you're walking off the green with a 7 you start to understand.
This is one awesome hole! And as Tim said, the view of the rest of the front nine are magical...
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole2diagram.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole2.jpg)
Here is the collection area short and right of the green...Good luck getting up and down from here
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole2b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole2a.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole2c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole2d.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole2e.jpg)
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This is my favorite hole on the course. It completely satisfies my fetish for the short par 3. It is exposed to the wind and a mishit shot spells disaster with a great green and devilish bunkering. To put it in perspective I had a tap in 4 on the first hole and a tap in 7 on the second.
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It's funny because I know the hole is difficult but reading the comments here I definitely didn't appreciate the terror in my two rounds. Two pars and no wind probably tainted my view. I thought the 2nd was only the second most terrifying of the short par 3s on the front nine - forget about the world!! The 9th was nearly impossible from both tee angles to the pin we played. More on that later.
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I think it wouldn't be that terrorizing to a back pin. Thanks for posting the photos of that area, I was down there three times in two rounds if that tells you anything :-[
I never tapped in for anything, I just gave up eventually!
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when the pin is on the front little finger, can I see a show of hands (figuratively) of people that have gone from one bunker. across the green to the other bunker over and over and....
I for one have done it more than once :D
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I think it wouldn't be that terrorizing to a back pin.
I think Andy is correct about this--as long as you keep it on line from the back tee. My first time around, I hit it close to a back pin.
The good news about being down in the right-side hollow is that it is recoverable--unlike target-golf par 3s that are surrounded by swamps or water, you can hit a poor first and still putt for par. Some of us get lots of practice at those difficult up-n-down attempts...
Excellent hole!
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Tee shots landing just right of center will feed into a small back right bowl.
Club selection is key here. It plays a little short of typical yardages, since the green is firm and only gently canted into the approach shot. The architect likes the blue tee box, 15 yards shorter but positioned about 25 yards left of the back tee box, which gives a more awkward angle of attack to front and back left pins.
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The second hole at Kingsley might be the most demanding par three in the game.
Did you skip #9? ;)
Both of the par 3s on the front are difficult just in different ways. Each seems to be well suited for match play and offers nice disaster potential in stroke play. 2 is visually so intimidating and we didn't play with much wind at all. Given where the green sits, I think wind could be significant. Very little of the green is visible from the tee and there really seems like no place to miss. In some ways, this tee shot reminded me of the one on 10 at Prairie Dunes.
I think the hole also plays a bit tougher because of the assault on your senses from all the other holes you can see from the 2 tee vantage point. Makes it hard to focus just on that one shot, especially for a first time player as you look around at what awaits you. I thought it was interesting how both the tee shot on 2 & the one on 11 prepared you for the character of those respective 9s. One could certainly stand on that tee and say "holy shit" more than once. What a magnificent site.
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The second hole at Kingsley might be the most demanding par three in the game.
Did you skip #9? ;)
Both of the par 3s on the front are difficult just in different ways. Each seems to be well suited for match play and offers nice disaster potential in stroke play. 2 is visually so intimidating and we didn't play with much wind at all. Given where the green sits, I think wind could be significant. Very little of the green is visible from the tee and there really seems like no place to miss. In some ways, this tee shot reminded me of the one on 10 at Prairie Dunes.
I think the hole also plays a bit tougher because of the assault on your senses from all the other holes you can see from the 2 tee vantage point. Makes it hard to focus just on that one shot, especially for a first time player as you look around at what awaits you. I thought it was interesting how both the tee shot on 2 & the one on 11 prepared you for the character of those respective 9s. One could certainly stand on that tee and say "holy shit" more than once. What a magnificent site.
When you say "both" par 3s on the front nine are difficult are you counting #5 as a par 4 from the tips? I'd ask if you skipped it, but I was there to see you play it. ;)
I'll see your statement and raise you an "all three par 3s on the front nine are difficult!"
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Oops. I was so demoralized by 9 the fifth hole didn't even come to mind when I saw Mike's post.
Is there a nine anywhere with three tougher par 3s?
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The second hole at Kingsley might be the most demanding par three in the game.
Did you skip #9? ;)
John,
No.
Number nine is a par five. ;D
Seriously...when our foursome walked off the green on 9 this summer, I had the only 4 in the group, and mentioned how thrilled I was with my birdie to the chuckled, shell-shocked amusement of my playing partners.
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Mike,
Great score. Didn't come close to that either time through.
If I had been able to, I would have kept going back to that tee over & over until I figured out a way to play the hole.
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In the weeks leading up to my visit to Kingsley, I read Ran's course review probably half a dozen times. The particular hole description I remember best and made sure to relay to my playing companions on the tee was of the 2nd hole.
Here's what Ran wrote : "Perhaps the finest short one-shotter built since World War II."
That is quite a compliment, eh?
I followed my double on #1 with a double on this hole as well. My hands were pretty much numb after 72 holes over the previous 2 days, playing Arcadia Bluffs and Forest Dunes. So my 9 iron didn't draw, careened off to the right just short of the green and ended up down below just like some of those pics above represent. At this point I'm telling myself, just enjoy the architecture Eric, which was easy to do.
You guys mentioning #9 here; you mean you didn't stick it 6 inches from the cup for a tap in bird and a smooth 49? ;D I'll expound when Tim gets to the 9th hole commentary.
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Mike,
Great score. Didn't come close to that either time through.
If I had been able to, I would have kept going back to that tee over & over until I figured out a way to play the hole.
John,
Let me describe one of my greatest ever golfing feats.
I hit 8-iron, which caught a head-wind and didn't even come close to reaching.
Worse yet, it landed, and instead of bounding forwards, it sucked back down the hill into the edge of the high stuff.
From there, I tried a Mickelsonian cut 60-degree wedge that came off pretty well and esconced itself onto the edge of the front-left fringe.
From there, I barely allowed the molecular structures of my putter to make contact with a single dimple of my golf ball, allowed for about seven feet of break, and left myself a 4-foot uphill return putt, which I thankfully holed, with a fist pump. ;D
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Wonderful short par three, brutal if you miss the green..as simple as that.
With the wind usually blowing, hitting this small target is no mean feat.
That is especially so, if you are pin chasing and the pin is located in one of the tight areas.
The fat portion of the green gives you a sizeable target but from there the putts to the corners are very tricky indeed...as such the cautious approach to the hole can still be very punishing.
From the back tee, the green looks miniscule, and to that back right pin...then it looks like the pin is just floating on air..
wonderful par 3...
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A few more pics of the 2nd, including the first one from below the pit on the right...
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John
The four par 3s on the back nine at Pacific Dunes (when the wind is blowing 20mph) can be of equal difficulty to those at Kingsley with the negligible wind we faced. With equal wind I haven't faced three tougher 3s on one nine.
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MIDDLE OF THE GREEN ;D ;D The miss here is long or right, IMHO. Anything left of the bunkers is going hard left in a hurry. One can reasonably make a 4 from long or right, probably 75% of the time. Again, the overall difficulty of this shot is dependent on wind velocity. In no wind, it's not super demanding (see hole #9), but in the presence of a mild to strong wind, it's certainly daunting. Nev's pro tip here, TRY AND MAKE BIRDIE ON 1.
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Happily added to http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/Michigan (http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/Michigan)
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The day we played, I chose to hit one less club. The ball missed the putting surface by what looked like a foot and was rejected into the front right bunker. One of the other players turns to me and says "What are you gonna say to the architect about that?" My reaction was nothing. I'm the guy who hit it there.
My initial impression was the only problem with the hole was it's early placement in the round for such an exacting shot. But, by the time the ninth hole rolls around, I'm without that excuse, so the hole is fine. ;)
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My one time playing I missed right and had no chance at keeping it on the green out of the hay. I played to the back of the green and smoothed a 3 putt up there for a 5. Tricky little devil of a hole.
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Thanks Tim for starting this thread -- great to hear everyone's fodder about the holes. I am travelling for the next week or so and won't have much time to check in, but will when I return home Thanksgiving week.
Mike D
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Time for the 3rd hole? Please ... ;D
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My vote (if I get one) is that Tim slows down the posting of holes until Mike D is able to participate. Doak's commentary added a lot to the Pac Dunes discussion and I think it would be great to have DeVries explain just what the hell he was thinking on a couple of holes. ;D ;D
Seriously, the hole by hole architect commentary is so valuable. I think we lose something if we expect Mike to play catch-up.
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I love the second hole and in my 10 rounds at Kingsley am probably only a few over par on it. I can recall two times making birdie and one time an X. The last time I played this hole I drew a 7 iron (playing the back tees around 150 yards) into a headwind to a back right pin (I'm a lefty) and it landed 2 feet past the pin and rolled into the back bunker. Hit it long over the green into a front bunker but then got up and down off of that bunker for a 4. I honestly think the way to go is take two clubs more and half swing the ball up the front of the green.
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I too hope that Mike will chime in on this thread at some point if he has the time. I started this thread with his blessing.
My take on the relationship to Crystal Downs is that there are clearly some ways Mike was influenced by CD. I think the same could be said of Tom Doak at High Pointe. At the same time, I would not consider either of these courses to be tribute courses. To do so (as great as CD is) would not serve justice to either course and the original holes and ideas that are plentiful at each.
One can't help but notice the broad-brush similarities in routing of the three in terms of front nine more intricate and inter-woven and back nine meanders through the woods, but there are plenty of differences as well.
Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding. One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least two of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.
If it isn't yet obvious I walked away from this course feeling almost as strongly as Shivas feels about Rock Creek. And that's saying something.
Looking forward to the continued discussion.
Kingsley is onviously influenced by the Downs because much of the course is local knowledge around the greens. I learn something new every time out at Kingsley and I'm into double digits on rounds there and I still learn something new every time out at the Downs and I've probably played 300 or 400 rounds there. Ask Mike D. the same thing and he would agree regarding both courses. You're constantly learning.
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I loved Kingsley my one time there. Unfortunately, that was the last time I've been in the area in decent weather. So I have not been back.
The first was a pretty nice hole. I'm not sure if I agree with all of the attention it gets as a great opener. For me it was just a standard three shot hole that almost yielded a birdie to me, but if I hit it further off of the tee, I could see how that bunker complex could be of real interest. I think Mike thought I was a ringer after the first hole. Other than the eye candy from the tee, the great view, nice terrain movement and the incredible green, what else is there... ;)
I dispelled all of those thoughts of superiority on the second hole. I hit a beautiful shot to the green that just managed to roll over the back and into the junk lining a bunker. I could barely see the ball, let alone hit it. 4 shots later I was walking to the next tee with my tail between my legs. I think the second was a really strong test that reminded me of a lot of Maxwell's template short par threes with tight bunkering and heavily contoured greens. There is a lot more going on with that hole than it appears.
Looking forward to the rest of the round.
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My vote (if I get one) is that Tim slows down the posting of holes until Mike D is able to participate. Doak's commentary added a lot to the Pac Dunes discussion and I think it would be great to have DeVries explain just what the hell he was thinking on a couple of holes. ;D ;D
Seriously, the hole by hole architect commentary is so valuable. I think we lose something if we expect Mike to play catch-up.
John this is my intention given Mike's response. I'm not going to stop, but I will slow down knowing Mike will be around next week. I plan to post hole #3 later this week (Thursday or Friday) and then will let Mike chime in with thoughts on the first three before I move along.
I too really enjoyed Tom Doak's commentary and think that if Mike is willing to add his commentary that it will improve immensely the experience of this thread.
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ok, it's past 'thursday or friday' Tim. Let's get this thread going! (thanks again for putting it together)
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Since there have been 82 posts on this thread so far and not a one that was even slightly negative, I feel compelled to say that I disagree with Ran's assessment of #2 as the finest par-3 built anytime lately.
The last time I played it, with Mr. DeVries, I watched him hit his tee shot in the left bunker ... blast out and across the green into the right bunker ... blast back out and across the green into the left bunker ... get it on the collar and two-putt for a six. And I didn't think he had played any of those bunker shots badly. [I think we played the tee that John Kirk referenced, since it is Mike's favorite ... I thought that angle was a bit awkward, as not even a straight shot could be assured of missing the bunkers.]
It's a very narrow target, surrounded by deep bunkers on all sides. That makes it a tough mother of a par-3, but I don't see how it makes it one of the great holes in golf. I'm happy to listen if someone would explain why it is, but there have been 30 posts so far and nobody's got there yet.
There are some really cool holes at Kingsley. In my opinion, this isn't one of them. I'll be glad to weigh in with more positive comments on the third and fourth holes when you get there.
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TD,
I'm wondering if you feel this way because the recovery shot is being overchallenged? Looks like an up and down is going to be seriously difficult. Making the hole somewhat too penal perhaps? Is the green too small in your opinion?
I don't think I can criticize anything I haven't played and I also do not like to compare courses or holes for greatness over one another, but this hole reminds me difficulty wise of your 3rd at Rawls. It is a very tough up and down if you're not on at Rawls. The big difference difference being at Rawls it's very much in front of you to see plus a bigger target perhaps (except the back bunkers are invisibile) whereas here at Kingsley it appears less obvious from the tee and a smaller target.
So what is not making this a great par 3 in recent modern design memory?
Just trying to understand the why part.
Since there have been 82 posts on this thread so far and not a one that was even slightly negative, I feel compelled to say that I disagree with Ran's assessment of #2 as the finest par-3 built anytime lately.
The last time I played it, with Mr. DeVries, I watched him hit his tee shot in the left bunker ... blast out and across the green into the right bunker ... blast back out and across the green into the left bunker ... get it on the collar and two-putt for a six. And I didn't think he had played any of those bunker shots badly. [I think we played the tee that John Kirk referenced, since it is Mike's favorite ... I thought that angle was a bit awkward, as not even a straight shot could be assured of missing the bunkers.]
It's a very narrow target, surrounded by deep bunkers on all sides. That makes it a tough mother of a par-3, but I don't see how it makes it one of the great holes in golf. I'm happy to listen if someone would explain why it is, but there have been 30 posts so far and nobody's got there yet.
There are some really cool holes at Kingsley. In my opinion, this isn't one of them. I'll be glad to weigh in with more positive comments on the third and fourth holes when you get there.
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Patrick:
You're asking why not?, but you've got to answer why? first. If a hole is going to be touted as one of the great par-3's in the world, I think it's got to have something going for it besides a small target and very difficult recovery. (Then again, the Postage Stamp at Troon does not.)
The hole you compared it to at The Rawls Course isn't that similar ... the green is very wide and relatively shallow and there is a lot of internal green contour. But I would never think of claiming it as one of the great par-3's in the world.
For that matter, the one par-3 I've built which does sometimes get mentioned, the eleventh at Pacific Dunes, I wouldn't nominate either. I think the best short 3 we've done is the one at Barnbougle ... a tiny target with nasty trouble, but which gives you one place to opt out if the wind is too severe and you just want to try and make a 4.
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Tom,
While I haven't played Kingsley either, I can understand the criticsm on its face.
I'm curious what your thoughts would be on 16 at PD. Its often been called one of the great short par 4s, and I can't argue against that. However it can be very diabolical with the huge steep false front, massive rear bunker, fall away to the right, and severe windyness to boot. I was 40 yards from the hole after my tee shot and walked away with a 7 after facing several difficult shots to get on the green.
Kalen
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Kalen:
No doubt 16 at Pacific Dunes is a severe hole, downright unfair in certain circumstances (when it's playing downwind). At the same time, as you say, in those conditions you were lying 40 yards from the green in one.
From there, there are three things you can try to do.
a) You can hit your L-wedge and pray it holds the green ... if you're going to do that, you should play toward the bit of grass that ramps up into the dune behind the green, and/or play to miss long left into the back bunker so you'll have a bunker shot back into the wind and into the length of the green.
b) You can try to putt the ball onto the green, allowing for it to swing to the right severely on the approach. Or,
c) You can putt your ball into the little pocket at the left front of the green, and try to make 4 or 5 from there.
The hard thing about assessing par-3 holes for me is that they almost never give you any options like these. Most people think the green has to be surrounded by trouble for a par-3 to be any good -- see: 17 at Sand Hills, 2 at Kingsley, etc. I think that's their weakness.
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I would agree that the 2nd isn't one of the great holes in the world by any means. It was the one hole that at the end of the day there I really disliked. As I thought it through more I have grudgingly accepted the difficulty and figured it had to be a better hole than I was giving it credit for, but the front pin is really severe.
I'm now willing to say its a good hole, but its nowhere near my favorite on the course--there's a lot of good ones so the competition is pretty steep. It might help if next time I actually manage to finish it though. Of the three par threes on the front, I'll take the 5th.
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Tom,
Hold on. I was comparing the level of difficulty. Not whether it was great. In other words, lost of bunkers ringing the green, movement on the green itself, and even a false front (false right in the case of Kingsley). Tough up and down in case the trouble comes in.
But I think you answered what I was hoping you would get at ... the need for more options. So if I'm not mistaken, the penal factor with no room for error is not balancing out the hole enough to make it a great par 3.
Patrick:
You're asking why not?, but you've got to answer why? first. If a hole is going to be touted as one of the great par-3's in the world, I think it's got to have something going for it besides a small target and very difficult recovery. (Then again, the Postage Stamp at Troon does not.)
The hole you compared it to at The Rawls Course isn't that similar ... the green is very wide and relatively shallow and there is a lot of internal green contour. But I would never think of claiming it as one of the great par-3's in the world.
For that matter, the one par-3 I've built which does sometimes get mentioned, the eleventh at Pacific Dunes, I wouldn't nominate either. I think the best short 3 we've done is the one at Barnbougle ... a tiny target with nasty trouble, but which gives you one place to opt out if the wind is too severe and you just want to try and make a 4.
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Tom,
I'd certainly agree that there are several options that I had there...and in fairness my ball was lying in a divot, making that 1st chip shot much more difficult. I chose to take the direct line at the pin and got in the bunker directly behind the green along with 2 others of us in our group. Being last to play out of the bunker and watching one of the guys go back down in the swale problably made me a bit gun shy in trying to finesse my first two shots out of that bunker which stayed in. :-X
In retrospect, I think I would have chipped directly left from that 1st lie in the swale and chipped back towards the green for a possible 4. Putting up that big slope to the green never occured to me, but I shall keep that in mind for my next trip. ;D
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Just a comment about #16 at Pacific Dunes downwind. Usually I try to drive it when it's downwind, favoring the right side, and almost always end up in the longer fescue about green high, 20-30 yards away and well below the green. From there I try to lob it up there and make four, where I've been successful about 60% of the time. At least I'm hitting into a crosswind.
When we start sidetracking into the 16th at another course, it's time for Tim to start the 3rd hole discussion.
Go Tim go!
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On the 2nd green at Kingsley, Tom Doak writes: "It's a very narrow target, surrounded by deep bunkers on all sides." That sounds exactly like The par-3, 17th at Sand Hills, which I've enjoyed playing (somewhat!!?) on several occassions. Both holes elevate your blood pressure and tighten your grip before you take the club back.
In my opinion, the 2nd at Kingsley compares favorably with the 17th at Sand Hills - short irons to a small target surrounded by bunkers with more room towards the back of the green. Both are world class.
It sounds to me like Mike's problem when he made the 6 playing against his Traverse City arch rival, Tom Doak, was ego-based! He should have blasted out to the fat part of the green and accept a gentleman's bogey. Being a golf course architect does not neccessarily mean you don't make poor decisions on a hole you designed! What a great story! The possibility of going bunker to bunker only makes the hole better in my opinion. Sounds like the 15th green at Fenway, or the par-3, 3rd at Winged Foot West. I've gone bunker to bunker on each of those greens and I consider myself to be a pretty good bunker player (just not that smart).
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Tom Doak,
Would you think "little tillie" at SFGC has much in common with this hole? Is hitting the green much easier at SFGC? Similar length, similar small target with some slope, similar how the land falls away everywhere around the green. How would you compare these two holes?
Why do I find Kingsley 2 to be perhaps the best short par three that I have ever played?
It doesn't just look exacting, but it actually is. Which is what a short three is all about to me. I love a short three hole that a good/great player can actually fairly easily make a 5. Too many short threes can be easily reached in one and parred after mishitting the tee shot. That immediately takes the thrill out of the hole the next time you tee it up at that course, knowing you can just hit within a certain yardage and be of moderate accuracy and be pretty much guaranteed a par.
You don't just have to pick the right club, but you actually have to hit one of your best shots of the day to be in great shape. I don't know of many others so exacting, a real equalizer between the short hitting average player and the top quality player.
The ground that it sits on is unlike any I have ever seen a hole designed on, looks like the green was slightly cut on top of a natural ridge and the tee may have been the same. Everything else on the hole is sloping away from your feet. A very heroic setting.
This hole has about as much regard for acting as the par that it is as the 1st hole at Crystal Downs. Perhaps those are two examples of more than "half par" holes.
A great match play hole, (forget about par for a moment) where any player could suprise his partner by hitting the perfect little shot or just avoiding the severe danger.
All that said my 8 iron slightly off line kicked into the short right bunker and I hit the "triple black diamond" sand shot of my life to 3 feet for a par.
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George posted this photo from the website, hopefully it shows up a bit larger here. I think it does a good job of showing the challenge of #2 looking back at the tees. The collective wisdom of those I've talked to is favor the back of the green regardless of the pin and if you go long into either of the 2 back bunkers you should make 4 at the worst. I never hit the ball left except on this hole -- that is a bad miss. I think you could lay up 20 yards short and right of the green if you were really nervous.
There was a thread on this hole a couple months ago and I told the story that this was the first golf hole my six year old ever played start to finish and he hit the green with his 3 wood -- he thinks it's pretty straight forward though he misread his bridie putt.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/2ndGreenEvening.jpg)
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Most people think the green has to be surrounded by trouble for a par-3 to be any good -- see: 17 at Sand Hills, 2 at Kingsley, etc. I think that's their weakness.
I've played the Kingsley hole just 3 times, but I don't see it as being "surrounded by trouble" because, well, I found the trouble, it wasn't that difficult, and I'm certainly not a short-game wizard. The 17th at TPC Sawgrass or the 13th at Blackwolf Run River, those are "surrounded by trouble."
I like this as the 2nd hole, as it really requires attention--it draws you into the task ahead of you. It would be really irritating to make double on this little short hole, so you really want to bear down. There may not be many options on the tee. If you hit a poor tee shot, then the fun starts.
"One of the greatest in the world" is over-wrought. But with its scariness and demands for precision Kingsley #2 reminds me of other excellent, short, demanding par 3s we've talked about recently...although it's missing the ocean...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3072/3036150032_e479f91e1e_b.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD11Tee3.jpg)
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You guys have a nice debate going now. You don't need #3. ;)
Seriously, the weekend traffic usually isn't all that great anyway. I'll post #3 Sunday night and hopefully we'll have Mike weigh in on the first three some time this week.
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TD,
You must be referring to the 7th at Barnbougle and I'm guessing the opt out option is short and somewhat left to left center. That still seems to be a tight option though or am I guessing wrong on the opt out. Maybe back left? But I'm thinking to opt out you would have to "see" the option. It doesn't appear as if a back left option would be viewable.
I guess I'm trying to visualize how obvious the option would be.
At any rate, I think it's coming down to one's philosophy and ideas/thoughts relative to that position.
I think my tendency would be somewhat like Josh's in the end. I'd be curious to hear how Tim Leahy feels on this. I like at times to be forced into a particular test or challenge.
With respect to what's being proposed on the 2nd at Kingsley, maybe the appropriate statement is that it's a very fine example of a herioc par 3. The challenge and test being proposed is to hit the green. You can not refuse the test. There is no opt out. Fail the test and you will be challenged even more to recover ... but you can recover. And the recovery options are not just bunkers.
At Barndougle, the proposal simply appears different to me. The challenge is there right in front of you ... with options. There is no forcing to hit the green. You can opt to NOT take the challenge of hitting the green and still find a way to a par / bogey. It's up to you to make the choice.
So two different approaches I'd say.
Each great in their own way.
Patrick:
the one at Barnbougle ... a tiny target with nasty trouble, but which gives you one place to opt out if the wind is too severe and you just want to try and make a 4.
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Patrick:
On the 7th at Barnbougle, you can play just short and right of the green, and try to chip for par. It's a very difficult chip, and not too many people will consider laying up on a 110-yard hole, but I'm sure there are days where that's the best play for a lot of golfers.
Josh:
I wouldn't have nominated "Little Tillie" as one of the best par-3 holes in the world, either. You're right that it is similar to #2 at Kingsley. The thing I like best about Little Tillie is that there is a clear pecking order to which bunker you want to be in, if you don't hit the green. The left and front bunkers aren't so bad, because either the green is tilted toward you, or you've got a fair amount of green to work with. In contrast, the right-hand bunker is a disaster, because the green all tilts away from there, and you might have problems just getting the next shot on the green. I don't know the second hole at Kingsley well enough to know if there is a similar pecking order there, but nobody has mentioned this so far, anyway.
Incidentally, I played the 17th at Sand Hills this spring in a 30-mph crosswind from right to left, and it was essentially reduced to "hit and hope". Maybe Tom Watson would have been able to hit a controlled low shot onto that green, although the front bunker makes it pretty tough to try.
Eric T:
Not sure what those two pictures were supposed to illustrate. There are bail-out areas on both holes if you are just trying to make four.
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Incidentally, I played the 17th at Sand Hills this spring in a 30-mph crosswind from right to left, and it was essentially reduced to "hit and hope". Maybe Tom Watson would have been able to hit a controlled low shot onto that green, although the front bunker makes it pretty tough to try.
Eric T:
Not sure what those two pictures were supposed to illustrate. There are bail-out areas on both holes if you are just trying to make four.
Tom, for me, a 10.5 index, all these nasty little holes are superficially similar. I am trying to make three, and if I miss the green I need to make a darn good recovery to make three, or settle for four. Five or worse is aggravating, but I'm not bright enough to think about "laying up" on a short hole to try to avoid it (#5, the longer par 3 at Kingsley, is different). In fact, I'm likely to think that ploy would more often result in five than four. To me, suggesting your holes have a bail-out and the others don't is hair-splitting, but as I haven't built any, nor played as many of these as you, perhaps I haven't learned to appreciate the differences.
If any kind of 30mph wind is blowing at Pacific Dunes, #11 would be a hit and hope for me!
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Meant somewhat short and somewhat right to right center (not left ... duh!). Also looks well below the hole from there.
Thanks for confirming the option.
On the 7th at Barnbougle, you can play just short and right of the green, and try to chip for par.
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Hole #3 is a par 4
420 from the Gold tee
387 from the Black tee
After walking off the 2nd green, the golfer welcomes an opportunity to take a free swing to a wide open landing area. This mid-length par 4 offers plenty of room in the landing zone, but the preferred zone is not quite as wide. The left side of this undulating fairway is preferable. The golfer landing on the high side is rewarded with a clear view of the green from the fairway. The ball that strays to the right faces a blind shot from the fairway at best, and a fairway bunker shot or even lost ball if the shot is played too far right. The left side, while preferable, feels rather slim. Too far left will roll off the fairway into the rough and down the hill, so a blind approach is possible from either side.
This green is enormous (I think it is one of the three largest, with #4 and #13 being the other two if I recall correctly.) With the 2nd still haunting ones thoughts, the green feels and plays even larger than it really is - if that is possible. The day we played the pin was on the front right section of the green. The back right side of the green seemed as if it could be a different hole entirely, like a large double green. A missed approach slightly left leaves a reasonable shot at getting up and down (at least when the pin is where we saw it - playing a chip from the left side all the way to the extreme right pin could prove challenging.) Missing short and right will send the ball running even further right. There are two greenside bunkers that also come into play when taking on the right side of the green. The run up area to the left side is wide open, providing yet another opportunity to take advantage of the turf conditions. The ball will run here, and a low flyer may be the best option, as long as the ball doesn't leak too far right.
Not only is the green very large, but it is also wild and great fun. It is one of many greens around the course where I could imagine spending an hour or so piddling around with some putts and chips.
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/3Tee2.jpg)
Another shot from the tee. The 4th fairway is in view on the far right.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/3Tee3.jpg)
The approach from the left side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king3approach.jpg)
The fairway from the lower, right side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king3fwy.jpg)
The approach to the front of the green. The green extends even slightly further right than the view of this photo
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/3Approach.jpg)
The view of the green from the front
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/3Green.jpg)
From just off the left side of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/3Green2.jpg)
Looking back to the front left of the green from the far right
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/3Green3.jpg)
A look at the bunkers guarding the right side of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/3GreenandBunkers.jpg)
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#3 might be my favorite hole on the course. It's a cool driving hole ... very difficult to pick the correct line off the tee. If you aim just a bit too far right you wind up in the hollow, and if you play too safely left you can go over and out.
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When it's playing downwind, I can carry that first bunker, otherwise, it's a tricky drive, where I'm trying to use that crescent shaped ridge in the fairway to keep my ball on top. 3-wood or the changeup driver with a fade.
In the Peninsula Cup this year, we started our final round on #3. From 138 yards in a light rain, I one-hopped an 8-iron into the hole for an eagle (front left position). One of those "Wow. Just might be our day today." moments.
Approaching the right side of the green is difficult. I believe this is the #2 handicap hole.
On the first day of this year's tournament, one of our competitors steps up and hits the ball 370 yards down the middle. 15-20 yards short of the green. First shot we ever see this guy hit. Could be a long day. But the pin is front right, and he has almost no chance to get it close. Gets a little too delicate, leaves it short of the ridge, and makes bogey.
We will revisit our immensely strong playing partner when we discuss the changes to #17.
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I liked the look you get at 4 green & fairway on the way to the tee for the third hole. Kind of hard to disengage from that hole and focus on the one you have to play. I thought this was one of the better holes. I found myself really afraid of losing it left and instead had to contend with a blind approach. There were all sorts of shot possibilities around the green. Wish I could play it sometime with the hole back right.
One additional photo of this green from behind.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/kingsley/king3greenedit.jpg)
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Love the 3rd hole. Always seems to be a stiff breeze in your face. The play for most people here (unless your Big Nev) is left toward the Beech tree. I always try and bite off a bunch of the hole toward the left and unless I clober one end up in the second bunker. Last time I played I cleared the second bunker on the right but had a little gust behind me. As far as the green goes I love the options, especially if you miss. The last two times I played the hole I got up and down with the putter from about 30 yards off the front once and off the side the other time. Really left is a nice bailout near the green.
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I really enjoy this hole. I think it kind of flys under the radar at Kingsley b/c of the quality of the other holes. What I really like is the fact that the better you know the hole, the much scarier and harder it becomes. The initial time you play this hole, you stand on the tee thinking you could hit it just about anywhere and be OK (except way right into the hay). The fairway is very wide, however as Tim mentioned, the ideal landing area is much smaller. All three times I've played this hole I have been out of position too far left; which leaves a blind shot and brings the hollow short/right of the green much more into play. I think the "ideal" landing area for the tee-ball could be disputable, depending on the pin position.
Here are some additional photos from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole3diagram.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole3.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole3a.jpg)
This picture is from right of the green and shows the large hollow short/right. It feels much larger in real life!
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole3b.jpg)
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And as John mentioned, one of the best parts of the hole isn't even actually the hole. The walk from the 2nd green to the 3rd tee is fantastic with the 5th to your left, the 4th green right next to you, and the 6th lurking off in the distance. The intamacy of the front nine is amazing.
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I don't think in either Tim or Tom D.'s description is it clear just how difficult it is to hit the fairway and have a good angle/view for the approach shot despite its width (more to come on that matter with the 4th hole).
Unless you take a quite aggressive angle from the tee, a tee shot further left will either a) leave a very long approach to an insane green, or b) funnel down into a deep bowl, leaving a completely blind approach to an insane green.
Only a drive that skirts/carries the first couple of right side bunkers and is place tight to the last one stays in a reasonable range for the approach.
Last summer I hit a perfect drive, and was left with a 3/4 8-iron into a medium breeze to a front pin.
I missed it a millimeter, landed just between green and fringe, and had about a 70-100 foot recovery shot from deep in the right hand bowl short of the green as my reward. ;)
For a second, I thought about being pissed...and then I just laughed at the wonderful exactitude required by the hole with not much more than shortly cut grass as the enemy.
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Mike C:
Maybe my heart wasn't in the description of difficulty because I striped a perfect one that got a nice roll deep on the high side in the morning. After hitting #2 green, two-putting for par, and following it up with this effort on the tee, this visitor was feeling rather invulnerable. This was before the holes yet to be discussed robbed me of my manhood and confidence.
To be fair, I'm now imagining my afternoon tee shot. It wasn't a whole lot worse, but it did trickle too far left and gave me a nastier approach into the green.
This is definitely one of the best jumbo fairway with small target zone holes I've ever played. I thought I mentioned something to that effect in my original post on the hole, thought I might not have emphasized small target zone enough. Maybe I should have said miniscule?
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Tim,
It's one of those holes that until you've been there, you don't easily notice the slim waist between glory and gory.
This picture probably shows it best, if you look outwards towards the line of the right-side greenside bunker, you'll note that the fairway turns into a sliver about where most decent length drives end up.
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole3a.jpg)
The picture claims that it's from the "tee shot landing area" and yes, it's very possible to layup back there, but most drives end up about 75 yards ahead, and it gets pretty skinny in that 120 yards from the hole range, which is where you want to be given the head-wind and the insane green.
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Mike - if you are driving it 300 into a head wind, then you have a different set of problems than me. ;D
I hit a really good drive for me and probably had somewhere in the vicinity of 150 remaining to the green. The picture that you re-displayed is a pretty good view from where my ball ended up. It's skinny where I was but not as sliver-like as the place where you big guys must be popping it!
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Tim,
At the time of the day I played 3, it was a medium, swirling wind, and my drive was maybe 275-280 with very firm conditions. As a 10, it was certainly one of my better ones, but for better players (and longer ones) than me, that's both the attraction and the ultimate risk of the hole.
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It's an interesting hole because the way it sets up it tempts you to hit it too far right on your tee shot to try and cut some distance off and then again because of the ridge in the middle of the green it tempts you to keep it right on your approach bringing that right swale into play. When I played it the pin was front right as well. Chipping from below the hole on the right is no easy shot because you risk leaving the ball on the top tier if you chip the ball too far which is what I did. The course was playing really fast when I played it and keeping the ball from scurrying too far past the hole was tough to do.
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The green is indeed HUGE and I'm not sure we can tell if that's just because of the lay of the land.
However, could there be another reason for why this green is so big?
I'm just wondering if Mike wanted to give the blind shot a better chance at the green from down the left side of the fairway.
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Tim,
Love the thread. Kingsley is one of my favorite golf courses in the world. Interesting take on the nines. I think the front nine at Kingsley is one of the best nines in the world. #9 doesn't quite work, but I just love the variety of demands of the front nine.
#3 is an excellent hole. I love the way the tee box ties in with #5 tee for starters. I love the way the hole sweeps steadily around to the right and as Tom D mentions it is difficult to pick the proper line off the tee. The tee shot is compounded in difficulty not only by having bunkering down the right, but a big drive played too safely out to the left can run through the fairway and down into a hollow, thus making the approach blind. The movement in the fairway ensures that most approaches are going to be more than just figuring out the yardage. The way the green is set on its axis with the diagonal ridge from 8 o'clock to 2 o'clock adds to the brilliance of the hole.
The eagle I made on this hole is a good illustration of how cool this hole is. I drove down the right side and was just in the fairway. The pin was far right so I did NOT have a good angle into the hole. I knew there was a slope just to the left of the greenside bunker that would help my ball move right if I could skirt the bunker. Pix #5 and 6 that Tim posted illustrate what I am describing. I didn't hit a great three iron but I did catch the slope, the ball moved a bit right, then up onto the diagonal ridge at which point it lost speed turned sharp right and rolled down into the hole. I never expected my ball to get that far right, but that is one of the brilliant things about KC is that there are features you can use to your advantage if you pay attention.
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Ed Getka lives!
Good to hear from you. Hope all's well in NC.
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Ed - If this thread can bring you out of the woodwork, then it is worth it in more than one way!
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To me the enormous hollow short and right of the hole defines the hole -- at least for a shaky 13. That thing is a blackhole that swallows anything offline right and/or short and makes for a brutal recovery. A chip/pitch from a tight lie to a wild green that must be 10 feet above your head over two bunkers is no fun and all to common for me.
The yardage book shows the green to be 48 yards deep and it basically wraps around the hollow from left to right. Lots of room left and better long than short as it seems pretty straightforward from behind the green. The back right pin sets up some wild putts up and over a big spine that bisects the green. Great matchplay hole on a great matchplay course.
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Can anyone accurately describe the 3rd green?
I can't.
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Mike-
Does this help -- it seems pretty accurate from what I remember.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/3TKC005.jpg)
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Agreed that the 3rd is a tremendous hole. As people have stated, the hole tempts you to take an aggressive line down the right side, bringing those deep fairway bunkers into play. I think that is a bad choice and you bring a big number into play with that line. I actually took a left center line and then a way left line, and both times the approach was longer, but the pin was available from that side. The stick was front left and I luckily landed my approach up on top of the fairway to the left and the ball trickled down to the hole location, leaving me maybe 12 feet. However, the second round I tried the same exact thing and this time my ball got stuck up top, leaving me a very difficult putt from off the green. That is one reason Kingsley is so great; the margin for error is very slim.
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Tim,
Thanks for starting this thread.
The 1st is one of my favorite openers, and admittedly I have a fond memory of playing it with Dan Lucas and Mike DeVries. I flew the central bunkers, got a huge bounce down the slope, hit my second to about three feet, and made eagle. I won't mention what happened after that...
I think Mike grumbled something about needing a new tee, but got his revenge shortly thereafter ;D I believe we were playing from the "Black" yardage, it certainly wasn't any longer than that.
Big hitter, the Lama! Nice to remember that one again, Andy!
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Mike,
That reminds me...
I have to wonder if anyone else has ever started 3-6-3-6-3 at Kingsley (and the 6 on #2 was of course adjusted).
Happy Thanksgiving!
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Ooh, a Kingsley picture thread, is this Christmas?!?!
Tim, you're the man. Great pictures. I can't wait to hear more and more from lots of other players.
As far as that left side of the fairway... Im not a big fan. I was hitting some pretty powerful draws the two rounds I had. Just wanted to start it on the far right side of the huge fairway and let it go where it goes. From the back tees, I cleared the bunkers, barely. The left side trees blocked any look at the green (not that I was going for it anyway, 260 or so out). Had to hook a 7 iron hard to get back into the fairway. Next trip around, we played a set up, cleared the bunker again and ended up only a few yards past where I was earlier. Still had to lay up even more with a PW, then a 4 iron that didnt get up the hill. IMO, left isnt the way to go unless you short of the bunkers, then the trees are a little out of the way. Next time out, the right side of the fw is where I'll really want to be.
Cant wait to talk about #2... ;D
Jon,
If you were hitting a huge draw/hook, then maybe driver wasn't what you should have hit? The fairway and bunkers in total for the first landing area is 110 yards wide -- it gets aggressively narrower the longer you hit it, but with the firm conditioning and slot off the right hill, it offers the really big hitter a great opportunity to get it close enough to hit the green in two. The left side is a very good options for shorter hitters, particularly those who are playing off the forward tees, as it stays below the wind more and can help those who slice into the hill. The trees at the end actually improve the risk/reward option of the left side by demanding a harder second shot (and subsequently longer third) for someone who overcooks their drive and ends up left and close to the trees. I definitely think the right side is the preferred line, but the left is a viable option for many reasons.
Best,
Mike
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Tim,
Did Mike mention why he decided not to bunker the ridge that cuts into the fairway from the left, in the second shot landing area?
David,
There are lots of bunkers on the hole and course -- the ridge doesn't really need bunkers to enhance it and I think the long rough is enough of a hazard. It's a good question and I don't think anyone else has ever asked it -- thanks for making me think about it!
Mike
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Plus, lets not forget the WIND!!! or if your like Mr. Devries, you don't have to worry about the wind, just hit it low ;)
Nev,
I always thought you were supposed to hit it low. . . that's what the Downs demands from you! ;D ;)
Cheers,
Mike
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I played the course five times in July, and I cannot wait to return. In fact, we've realigned our yearly 8 man ryder cup to take place at Kingsley this June. Many are GCA Lurkers, I hope this thread provides them with an understanding of just how special a course it is.
I agree, the first is one of the greatest opener's I've ever played. I've not played Crystal yet, but I understand that the bunker complex defending the tee shot are at a minimum based on, if not an homage to the fifth hole there. I'm sure there are a few here who have played both many times. Is KC reminiscent of CD?
I have to add, the conditions I played in were nothing less than superb. The ground game is alive and well at KC, despite what Dye says about the state of that game in America.
It is going to be a long winter...
Mike,
Glad you like the course and great to hear you are returning with your group -- sounds like fun!
The bunkers on #1 are not based on anything from the Downs, although CD has been, and continues to be, the most influential golf course for me -- every time I am on the course, I learn something about golf course architecture.
Further to some other questions following this, I grew up playing and working at the Downs, spending every day of the summer at the course throughout high school and college there. I have been a member for more than 15 years and have a lot of family in the area, so it will always be "home" for me. Personally, it is the reason that I got into the business -- I am not sure I would be as passionate about course design if I had grown up at Joe Blow Muni (not that there is anything wrong with that -- I am just lucky that my family was in the area where the Downs is and that gave me the opportunity to be influenced by its greatness early on). The Downs deserves its recognition as one of the great courses of the world and I appreciate that more and more with my exposure to the world's other great tracks.
Best,
Mike
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Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding. One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.
Tim,
It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement. It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.
Funny you say that because the other person that shares my view plays left-handed as well.
Hey, my dad and brother are lefties -- maybe I just have a soft spot for southpaws! ;D
Mike
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It can't be emphasized enough how Dan Lucas and crew maintain Kingsley. It's truly an ideal MM.
Adam and others following his lead,
Dan and his crew really "get it" and maintain the golf course so you can play it. Occasionally, the greens might get too fast but I haven't seen that in a long time. They are firm and roll true, allowing for a stroke even when above the hole, and don't just have you praying the ball will stop. The multiple options for some of the more extreme putting situations also make it fun and allow the player to hedge his bet in certain situations.
Best,
Mike
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I like a par 5 opener, and this one is exceptional. Add my thanks to the pile Tim.
Speaking of maintenance meld, however, am I the only one who wonders if the long nasty grass around the center bunkers is really necessary? (And yes, I am an embittered golfer who watched a slightly errant tee shot hop in there, never to be seen again...)
Aren't the bunkers penal enough all by themselves for those who miss the right or left by a bit?
Couldn't the grass be made playable, a 1/2 stroke penalty, instead of lost-ball deep?
Eric,
That is certainly an irregular occurrence -- it is not easy but it is unusual to lose a ball in there. The intention throughout the golf course is for the bunkers to tie in ruggedly with the surrounding landscape, so having long grass is not against the design. In some instances, the turf can get a bit too thick but, for the most part, the ball is findable and playable. There is plenty of open play space on the hole and having a hazard severe is okay in my mind.
Best,
Mike
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Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding. One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.
Tim,
It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement. It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.
Funny you say that because the other person that shares my view plays left-handed as well.
Hey, my dad and brother are lefties -- maybe I just have a soft spot for southpaws! ;D
Mike
Mike,
Then you're dad and brother would likely agree with my assertion that not only are we more creative, we're better looking too. ;)
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#4 is a par 4
411 from the Gold tee
385 from the Blue tee
The 4th hole makes its way back somewhat parallel to #3, though it is a straighter hole. Straighter when it comes to lack of left or right dogleg that is. It can't be called straight vertically, as it is a roller coaster from tee to green (okay, I should really save this statement for the 17th.) The fairway on this hole is funtastic!! The tee shot is somewhat blind, because of the humps and the native grass. Hitting all you've got will most likely leave you with a blind approach from the bottom of one of the many valleys. Depending upon your comfort with a longer approach, less club off the tee might be the proper order. If you lay back, you will be rewarded with a clearer view of the approach and the green. There is plenty of room left off this tee. I know, I was there twice. While the left is spacious, it isn't really preferable. You won't get a good look at the putting surface from over there. Hopefully, you were paying attention when you passed by from the 2nd green to the 3rd tee...
There is one final deep down and up right in front of this monstrous green - the second consecutive hole with a green of epic proportions. This one is a little less oddly shaped than #3, but it is challenging nonetheless. There is a rather large hump or spine that runs through the middle of the green, making it important to hit the front or the rear - wherever the pin is that day.
#4 is another really good hole in the impressive opening stretch at Kingsley.
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Tee.jpg)
The view (or lack thereof) from the left side of the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4FW.jpg)
Another view from the left side, slightly closer to the green. You can clearly see the pin, but you can also see that the putting surface is well hidden from this angle.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Approach.jpg)
The preferred angle from the right side of the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king4fwy.jpg)
Stray too far right and you might still get the obstructed view (and have to tangle with the nasty bunkers.)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Approach3.jpg)
Another view from the right side, closer to the green. You can see the final dip in the fairway leading up to the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Approach4.jpg)
A view of some of the bunkering and the 4th green from the 3rd fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4From3.jpg)
The front view of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Green.jpg)
The rear view of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Green2.jpg)
The 4th green from the 2nd green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Greenfrom2Green.jpg)
The 4th green from the 5th tee. The number of holes that provide an ample view of the 4th green is special recurring characteristic of the front nine!
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Greenfrom5Tee.jpg)
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This is definitely one of my favorite holes on the course. I will expound later, but here are some pics from the website until then.
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole4diagram.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole4a.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole4b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole4.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole4c.jpg)
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This hole appears to have a real "british isles" feel to it - very natural look of the tee with the fairway obscured. Then the undulations of the fairway and the combination of bunkers and native enroaching on the fairway in front of the green.
A lovely hole.
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Great green. This hole yields a lot of long and enjoyable first putts.
Some might argue the "A" position, in the center on the top on the fairway, is too hard to attain.
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Another of my favorite holes on the course. This is the kind of hole you can only build when you have some really interesting ground to work with ... you can't make up stuff like this out of thin air.
John K, I wouldn't agree that Position A is too hard to obtain, because you will still be in the fairway even if you fail. The reward is only about visibility, and there's no reason that should be so easy to find.
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If I've got a 3-wood in the bag I might hit it here. A little less than a full length driver for me, as it plays a bit downhill. You can get yourself into trouble both left and right if the ball travels 275 yards. I generally aim at the left center of the fairway, because you can see what you're doing if the ball bounds to the left side.
The big ridge short of the green makes for some interesting shots when the pin is tucked in the front of the green.
The green has bold, smooth contours, one of two consecutive bowl shaped greens.
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This hole is an example of a partially blind tee shot that helps make the hole even more challenging. The first time you play it you are uneasy in commiting to the tee shot. The next time and subsequently the tee shot becomes even harder because of the hogsback nature of the fairway and the knowledge of how difficult it is to put yourself up on top so your approach won't be blind. Another excellent semi-blind tee shot is seen on #6.
The green is one of my favorites there. The berm that rolls into the green really does a great job of protecting front pin positions. Then as the front 2/3 of the green slopes upward to the high point there are lots of interesting internal contours that make any putt a fun challenge. Finally you have the small punchbowl in the back over the spine that divides the green. If I have been back there in 2 it was by accident. The punchbowl is a bit narrower than the front of the green and with flanking bunkers it takes steady nerves to try to go all the way back there to attack a back pin.
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That looks like an amazing piece of ground that Mr. DeVries molded. I love the fairway contours and the manner in which they flow directly into the greens. None of those artificially raised putting surfaces.
Thanks for the thread, Tim!
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This is the kind of hole that can only be found through careful examinations of the site. So many golf holes get praised because they make great use of bold natural features. However, isn't a hole like this harder to find on a property. The land certainly does not stand out at first glance, but a subtle feature like the spine in the right side of the fairway is critical to the strategy of the hole. Why doesn't this type of hole get more attention?
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Another example of visual intimidation from the tee. I'm not sure how much this would diminish over repeated playing, but even knowing what to do it was still tough to commit to the tee shot. I think approaching from the left side wouldn't be too bad with the hole in the front of the green, but with it in the back that's one tough shot to pull off. Just a little mishit and your in one of the bunkers.
That putt from the front of the green to the back is very entertaining.
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A note from the "Memorable Shots" file...
I was on the front right collar of this green, and the pin was back left. I don't know if it was the best play option, but I did what seemed most entertaining at the time; I took the sand wedge and pitched the ball to the back left collar and let the ball feed back to the pin instead of putting over the ridge. It ended up a foot from the hole and was very satisfying to have that shot available.
Joe
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JNC Lyon: Hopefully Mike DeVries will see your comment and my response and post, but I would be willing to bet that the positioning of the fourth hole was really conceived first as a way to get from #3 green to #5 tee, and then he found a cool place for a landing area, instead of the landing area for #4 being one of the first things he zeroed in on in the routing.
I know from my own routings that a lot of the cool subtle stuff comes on the second pass ... you find bigger things first, but then it happens that you find a cool subtle feature in between and figure out how to use that, and it becomes one of the best holes on the property when you never saw it to begin with.
I've mentioned before that this is also true of the 13th hole at High Pointe ... I had seen the green site from the beginning, but the hole is just a necessary connection after I found #12 and #14. And it turned out to be my favorite hole in the bunch.
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This might be my favorite hole on the course.....I can't decide between this, 1, 2, 3, 5-9, and 10-18... ;D
Seriously, I love this hole, it was such a blast to play......
I can't wait until you get to the discussion about the 9th hole so we can talk about the shortest par 5 in America.........
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#4 is a wonderful hole. I have always particularly liked the drive. I learned to hit a low tee shot at the bunker on the left front of the green and have it hit the back face of the bowl just past the forward tee. For me it would bounce and run straight towards the green along the top of the ridge leaving a perfect view of the entire green for the approach shot. Shots slightly right will be deflected slightly left so they will also stay up on the ridge. Of course a shot more then slightly right will end up down in that deep bowl. More then slightly left and your down that big slope tempting having to hit out of the edge of the rough.
Then there is the approach shot...
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JNC Lyon: Hopefully Mike DeVries will see your comment and my response and post, but I would be willing to bet that the positioning of the fourth hole was really conceived first as a way to get from #3 green to #5 tee, and then he found a cool place for a landing area, instead of the landing area for #4 being one of the first things he zeroed in on in the routing.
I know from my own routings that a lot of the cool subtle stuff comes on the second pass ... you find bigger things first, but then it happens that you find a cool subtle feature in between and figure out how to use that, and it becomes one of the best holes on the property when you never saw it to begin with.
I've mentioned before that this is also true of the 13th hole at High Pointe ... I had seen the green site from the beginning, but the hole is just a necessary connection after I found #12 and #14. And it turned out to be my favorite hole in the bunch.
That makes a lot of sense from a practicality standpoint. Might it be better to seek out the small features first? It seems like holes like the fourth at Kingsley are often more fun to play and of greater architectural merit than those with big features. Although less dramatic, it seems a hole like 4 at Kingsley is both more fun and more maddening than a hole like 1 that utilizes the most dramatic elements of the property.
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JNC: The problem with seeking out the small features first is that on land like Kingsley, you are likely to get left with a couple of very blind holes as connectors. Most of my routings are done visibility-first.
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What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway... ;D
Going back to #3. The green reminds me and the hole, generally, of #1 at High Pointe. Tom Doak, please correct me if you think Im WAY off base.
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What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway... ;D
Put the ol' cut swing on it. Nice.
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The group of fellows I played with last time at Kingsley had some very mixed reactions to #4. It was generally felt that taking driver wasn't an effective play because under normal F&F conditions, it was never possible to hit and hold that little slice of raised fairway between the two cascading natural bowls on each side, and therefore became a game of pick-your-poison...longer partially blind approach shot from the left, or totally blind shot approach shot from the right.
I'm not sure I'd agree, and think that the smart play may be to lay back, leaving a longer but fully visible approach into a wonderfully flowing large green that permits many more viable options for the type of approach shot one desires to attempt than does the shot from the tee.
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The group of fellows I played with last time at Kingsley had some very mixed reactions to #4. It was generally felt that taking driver wasn't an effective play because under normal F&F conditions, it was never possible to hit and hold that little slice of raised fairway between the two cascading natural bowls on each side, and therefore became a game of pick-your-poison...longer partially blind approach shot from the left, or totally blind shot approach shot from the right.
I'm not sure I'd agree, and think that the smart play may be to lay back, leaving a longer but fully visible approach into a wonderfully flowing large green that permits many more viable options for the type of approach shot one desires to attempt than does the shot from the tee.
It seems like the F&F situation you describe actually adds more options to the hole and creates an extra need for decisions off the tee. I like that because it makes you think twice about hitting the driver while still not taking it out of the bag altogether.
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The group of fellows I played with last time at Kingsley had some very mixed reactions to #4. It was generally felt that taking driver wasn't an effective play because under normal F&F conditions, it was never possible to hit and hold that little slice of raised fairway between the two cascading natural bowls on each side, and therefore became a game of pick-your-poison...longer partially blind approach shot from the left, or totally blind shot approach shot from the right.
I'm not sure I'd agree, and think that the smart play may be to lay back, leaving a longer but fully visible approach into a wonderfully flowing large green that permits many more viable options for the type of approach shot one desires to attempt than does the shot from the tee.
The architect instructed us to lay back and he did so himself. Being one that is prone to barfing all over myself when I try to lay back and do the right thing (two of my worst tee shots ever in Bandon were the result of poorly executed "safe" 6-iron and 5-iron shots), I took the driver out and tried to wallop it. As a result, I played the hole from the left both times, which proved to be an awkward angle to the back pin.
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Tim,
It must be another left-handed thing...I know exactly what you mean.
In trying to play smart and "safe", I've hit more shots into trouble than I can possibly tell you.
JNC_Lyon,
I love F&F and love how those conditions accentuate the architecture at Kingsley.
However, those hot-running conditions also do make certain options less viable because even on medium grades it becomes difficult to stop a ball within a "predictable" general target area.
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What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway... ;D
Put the ol' cut swing on it. Nice.
Thats right. See the discussion immediately after my post re landing a driver on the raised fairway between two bowls. Not as big of a deal from #3 Fairway....
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I don't have much new to say here that hasn't already been covered. There are a lot of nuances such as navigating the potentially blind approach and convincing oneself of how much club is needed to get to the back that make this one of those great holes where you can score if you focus on executing your shot but rarely manage to do so. And I love the gigantic green!
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What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway... ;D
Put the ol' cut swing on it. Nice.
Thats right. See the discussion immediately after my post re landing a driver on the raised fairway between two bowls. Not as big of a deal from #3 Fairway....
Ahhh, I see. It did not occur to me you would hit it over there on purpose. It's pretty wide and flat on that part of third fairway, isn't it?
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The ridge at the front of #4 green that runs across the enitre fairway is one of my favorite landforms(?) at Kingsley -- the way the fairway comes up the hill and then drops down to the green is something I've never seen on an another course -- It reminds me of a bullnose tile. (You can see it in the background of Tim's last picture below). It creates an element of blindness especially to front pins and really makes a precise shot necessary as anything just over the ridge will kick forward. The F&F conditions also create alot of short game options if you end up short of that ridge.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Greenfrom5Tee.jpg)
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I think they need to plant some Hinkle trees between the 4th tee and 3rd fairway.
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Kingsley is onviously influenced by the Downs because much of the course is local knowledge around the greens. I learn something new every time out at Kingsley and I'm into double digits on rounds there and I still learn something new every time out at the Downs and I've probably played 300 or 400 rounds there. Ask Mike D. the same thing and he would agree regarding both courses. You're constantly learning.
Brian,
Thanks for the compliment. Certainly, the Downs has that aspect to its design and I learn something about golf architecture every time I am on the property there.
Kingsley was always meant to be a private club with players having the opportunity learn the nuances of the course over multiple playings. That way the course is always interesting and players get to try new shots based on their abilities that day in combination with the existing elements. It is also more about match play and not making a score -- that is the standard that most of us play every round, not medal. Therefore, there are certain ways to approach the game and trying a certain shot may depend on the current match and / or position of your opponent . . .
The second is an exacting hole but with a short club in your hand. There are multiple angles of play and I prefer the left side at 138 yards for the back tee -- that is a full wedge or 9-iron for better players -- but it is less visual due to the short donut bunker's lip. The alignment with the centerline of the green is more direct from the left, whereas the right hand tee (up to 155-162 yards) offers a better view of the approach and green but is on a diagonal to the green centerline, making some of the pins more difficult to hit. The smart play, no matter where the pin is located, is to the back half of the green, which is 2-2.5 times wider than the front half of the green. This "safe" concept is applicable to the tee shot as well as recovery plays, but we are often tempted to make the heroic shot to a very tight pin . . .
One of the things that was hard with the routing of the course was how to get out to the "South 40" which is what I call the land from 2 tee to 7 tee (about 40 acres in size). This is an amazing section of ground with a lot of natural features that were usable in a number of different ways (there are great holes that were never able to be used due to conflicts with other great holes and were thus eliminated). The general location of the clubhouse became somewhat evident due to entrance and transfer to front and back nines, so one of the problems was "What is the best way to get to the South 40?" That is really how #1 became a big-scale par 5 to open and then the small hike up to the 2nd tee, where the South 40 and most of the front nine was visible before you. So the 2nd tee has a big impact on the overall feeling of the golf course and intimacy of the routing right at the start.
Mike
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Tom,
Hold on. I was comparing the level of difficulty. Not whether it was great. In other words, lost of bunkers ringing the green, movement on the green itself, and even a false front (false right in the case of Kingsley). Tough up and down in case the trouble comes in.
But I think you answered what I was hoping you would get at ... the need for more options. So if I'm not mistaken, the penal factor with no room for error is not balancing out the hole enough to make it a great par 3.
Patrick:
You're asking why not?, but you've got to answer why? first. If a hole is going to be touted as one of the great par-3's in the world, I think it's got to have something going for it besides a small target and very difficult recovery. (Then again, the Postage Stamp at Troon does not.)
The hole you compared it to at The Rawls Course isn't that similar ... the green is very wide and relatively shallow and there is a lot of internal green contour. But I would never think of claiming it as one of the great par-3's in the world.
For that matter, the one par-3 I've built which does sometimes get mentioned, the eleventh at Pacific Dunes, I wouldn't nominate either. I think the best short 3 we've done is the one at Barnbougle ... a tiny target with nasty trouble, but which gives you one place to opt out if the wind is too severe and you just want to try and make a 4.
So, how many options does a hole have to have to make it great? I think one of the strong points of Kingsley in general is the plethora of options on most shots. The second is a demanding short par three that requires a precise shot with a short iron -- I don't think that makes it bad but maybe doesn't make it great. In comparison with the 7th at Barnbougle, which I like a great deal and think is wonderful, the safe option there into the hollow is no bargain with the severe upslope to the green (I pitched it up and two-putted for 4 but was close to going over into the bunker left -- and this was in a very mild wind) but the green itself is smaller than KC #2's and the bunker left is more severe. My guess would be that the wind at Barnbougle is regularly stronger than at Kingsley, but I still think the hole works and is great -- it's straightforward appearance from the tee presents the entire hole quite well, whereas Kingsley's is semi-blind to portions -- maybe that is the problem with the (dis)liking of it from some?
One thing that we have adjusted is the regular rough mowing line, which is now higher up on both the 2nd and 9th holes, therefore not everyone rolls to the same general area, improving recovery lies and often giving players a fluffier lie that allows a wedge to slide under and get the ball up softly -- that has been a small change that improves the chance at recovery.
As to my back and forth debacle while playing with Tom -- I selectively erased that from my memory! That was quite some time ago (5-6 years ago?) -- maybe we need to have a rematch and I can try to do it again, Tom?!! ;D
Mike
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I think they need to plant some Hinkle trees between the 4th tee and 3rd fairway.
Hey now ;D
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What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway... ;D
Put the ol' cut swing on it. Nice.
Thats right. See the discussion immediately after my post re landing a driver on the raised fairway between two bowls. Not as big of a deal from #3 Fairway....
Ahhh, I see. It did not occur to me you would hit it over there on purpose. It's pretty wide and flat on that part of third fairway, isn't it?
Its only "on purpose" when you hit your second shot to 5 feet and make the putt.... ;)
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Some great debate on #2 by Tom, Josh, Patrick and others -- did I answer all of the questions or does someone have something else to ask / add?
Mike
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One of the things that was hard with the routing of the course was how to get out to the "South 40" which is what I call the land from 2 tee to 7 tee (about 40 acres in size). This is an amazing section of ground with a lot of natural features that were usable in a number of different ways (there are great holes that were never able to be used due to conflicts with other great holes and were thus eliminated). The general location of the clubhouse became somewhat evident due to entrance and transfer to front and back nines, so one of the problems was "What is the best way to get to the South 40?" That is really how #1 became a big-scale par 5 to open and then the small hike up to the 2nd tee, where the South 40 and most of the front nine was visible before you. So the 2nd tee has a big impact on the overall feeling of the golf course and intimacy of the routing right at the start.
Mike
This proves exactly how great of a job I think you did out there. I would have thought that 2-7 was the easy find and getting from 13 green to 18 tee was "hard to find." I would have never thought (from the one time I've played it) that it was hard to get to 2-7 (and back).
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One of the things that was hard with the routing of the course was how to get out to the "South 40" which is what I call the land from 2 tee to 7 tee (about 40 acres in size). This is an amazing section of ground with a lot of natural features that were usable in a number of different ways (there are great holes that were never able to be used due to conflicts with other great holes and were thus eliminated). The general location of the clubhouse became somewhat evident due to entrance and transfer to front and back nines, so one of the problems was "What is the best way to get to the South 40?" That is really how #1 became a big-scale par 5 to open and then the small hike up to the 2nd tee, where the South 40 and most of the front nine was visible before you. So the 2nd tee has a big impact on the overall feeling of the golf course and intimacy of the routing right at the start.
Mike
This proves exactly how great of a job I think you did out there. I would have thought that 2-7 was the easy find and getting from 13 green to 18 tee was "hard to find." I would have never thought (from the one time I've played it) that it was hard to get to 2-7 (and back).
JC,
It is easy to get from point A to B, it is hard to make it good and to flow properly in the process of doing it. In the case of getting to 2T, I had a number of ways of going about it, but two short par 4's didn't work very well and then added another hole to the front nine. There is a large wetland to the left of the first hole in the middle of the property and I didn't want to be close to that for a number of reasons, so it came about in the form of the long 5 first, which has good shot value and options on all three full shots and a fun green setting, plus it allows for the player to swing away on the first and be contrasted with the exacting 2nd. Somehow it all worked out very well.
Mike
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Although I doubt this had much to do with the why and how of number 2 but, I really like the contrast between holes 1 and 2. One has a wide-open look, feel and playability to it. Which makes for some interesting angles and variety about how to navigate around, but also makes you feel like you can kind of miss your way to at least A G.I.R. Then two is more of a do or die type hole, and has completely the opposite feel. It's small, constricted, and there is no room to miss.
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The green is indeed HUGE and I'm not sure we can tell if that's just because of the lay of the land.
However, could there be another reason for why this green is so big?
I'm just wondering if Mike wanted to give the blind shot a better chance at the green from down the left side of the fairway.
Patrick,
When building the green, I thought about having the green just be the right side of the green, which would be an adequate, although smaller, target. Problem was -- it just didn't have the variety and options available that the entire finished green did, so it became the entire landform and almost 11,000 sq. ft., but with two very different sides and attack modes. All of the basic green surface was intact, with the exception that I broadened and slightly raised the ridge to help shift running approaches around to the right half of the green for those not wanting to fire at it aerially past the bunkers and deep bowl and it works very well for that play.
The comments on the drive are all very good and accurate. Depending on which tee you are playing and the length of your normal drives, the very wide yet undulating fairway presents a number of issues, making it more difficult to choose the best line that will give you visibility and a decent angle of attack for your approach shot. The tee is slightly higher than the green in elevation (5 ft.) but the hole is essentially flat from tee to green along the spine, with 10-15' bowls folding off of each side, providing players with a play that is variably blind but playable.
The green has lots of room to the left and back for "safe" plays away from the bowl and bunkers and deep is often a good play for pins in the back center bowl that flows away from the line of play. Front pins are delicate if you get too fancy and try to get really close, often ending in the bowl to the right, whereas a play a little to the left will often come back down towards the pin or allow for a good approach putt, even though it is downhill.
Give me 200 acres of this type of land and you will have a great golf course -- it is really fine golfing terrain.
Cheers,
Mike
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Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding. One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.
Tim,
It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement. It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.
Funny you say that because the other person that shares my view plays left-handed as well.
Hey, my dad and brother are lefties -- maybe I just have a soft spot for southpaws! ;D
Mike
Mike,
Then you're dad and brother would likely agree with my assertion that not only are we more creative, we're better looking too. ;)
HUH??!!? . . . . . . Nice try, Buddy! ;D
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That looks like an amazing piece of ground that Mr. DeVries molded. I love the fairway contours and the manner in which they flow directly into the greens. None of those artificially raised putting surfaces.
Thanks for the thread, Tim!
Kyle,
I didn't mold anything there except for the bunkers -- the ground was there like that and I just tried to not screw it up!
Mike
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That looks like an amazing piece of ground that Mr. DeVries molded. I love the fairway contours and the manner in which they flow directly into the greens. None of those artificially raised putting surfaces.
Thanks for the thread, Tim!
Kyle,
I didn't mold anything there except for the bunkers -- the ground was there like that and I just tried to not screw it up!
Mike
I thought the same thing when I read that. Although, maybe he's right, maybe it was as flat as a run way and the whole thing was created by the hand of man ;) ;D ;D
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Mike,
Your dad and brother would no doubt strongly agree with my well-stated and self-obvious assertion. ;D
Now, back to the golf course discussion... ;)
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Mike
How big is the 4th green? To me it seemed larger than the 3rd but maybe that is because it "feels" more accessible being in line w/ the fairway as opposed to #3.
Thanks
Jason
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JNC Lyon: Hopefully Mike DeVries will see your comment and my response and post, but I would be willing to bet that the positioning of the fourth hole was really conceived first as a way to get from #3 green to #5 tee, and then he found a cool place for a landing area, instead of the landing area for #4 being one of the first things he zeroed in on in the routing.
I know from my own routings that a lot of the cool subtle stuff comes on the second pass ... you find bigger things first, but then it happens that you find a cool subtle feature in between and figure out how to use that, and it becomes one of the best holes on the property when you never saw it to begin with.
I've mentioned before that this is also true of the 13th hole at High Pointe ... I had seen the green site from the beginning, but the hole is just a necessary connection after I found #12 and #14. And it turned out to be my favorite hole in the bunch.
The greensite was always high on my radar list from the first walking of the site -- this might be because it was a little more open and primarily brambles instead of 10-year-old regrowth from a clearcut operation, but it was always a really cool feature. In figuring out holes in the beginning, there was a tee from left of the middle of the 3rd hole that played across the 4th green and 2nd hole to the back tee on the 6th -- a wild ride of a short par 5 that would have been a heckuva hole -- only problem is, it didn't work well with the other good holes and got thrown out. So how to use this amazing double bowl feature that is the 4th green? I toyed with the green as either the front or back of the green, considering safety margins with the other holes, shots, etc. and finally decided to use the whole area again, similar to #3G, because of the different shots required into it and ability to attack via the ground or aerially.
The greensite was always very good, so how to fit it in with other good holes and have a great sequence of holes? Tom is right, in that I had to find what would make an interesting drive and transition for that green, in this case from #2 through #5, even to #7T, where you get a variety of glimpses of the various greens, fairways, bunkers, and landforms throughout your journey around the South 40. There is a very good tee further to the left, down near the big rock behind the 6th green that opens up to the left side of the fairway, lengthens the hole a bit, and has the drive hitting into the ridge more -- I chose not to put this tee in due to its distance from the 3rd green but the owner likes it and keeps talking about having me build it, and maybe we will someday . . . the one thing about this angle is that the ridge isn't as much of a factor on the drive as a landing area but the view from the tee is more open and visually friendlier than the somewhat hidden aspect of the current tees.
Mike
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Mike
How big is the 4th green? To me it seemed larger than the 3rd but maybe that is because it "feels" more accessible being in line w/ the fairway as opposed to #3.
Thanks
Jason
JC,
12,300 sq ft. #13 is slightly larger than that. 9 of the greens on the course are less than 5000, with #15 the smallest at 3750.
Mike
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#4 is a wonderful hole. I have always particularly liked the drive. I learned to hit a low tee shot at the bunker on the left front of the green and have it hit the back face of the bowl just past the forward tee. For me it would bounce and run straight towards the green along the top of the ridge leaving a perfect view of the entire green for the approach shot. Shots slightly right will be deflected slightly left so they will also stay up on the ridge. Of course a shot more then slightly right will end up down in that deep bowl. More then slightly left and your down that big slope tempting having to hit out of the edge of the rough.
Then there is the approach shot...
Now here is the perfect example of a true golfer! Ralph plays his hickory to take advantage of the running conditions at Kingsley and to run up on the ridge. 8)
The line of attack from the tee is actually the left edge of the green, but lots of players go directly at the green and end up in the bowl on the right, blind to the green but with lots of info to go into the green, with the trees in the background and an open approach in the front. It is a fun drive and always great when you land on the ridge but also fun to hit shots out of the bowl and get it close from a blind spot.
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What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway... ;D
Put the ol' cut swing on it. Nice.
Thats right. See the discussion immediately after my post re landing a driver on the raised fairway between two bowls. Not as big of a deal from #3 Fairway....
Ahhh, I see. It did not occur to me you would hit it over there on purpose. It's pretty wide and flat on that part of third fairway, isn't it?
This is a crime against golf -- it was never meant to be played from #3!!! >:( ;D ;)
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The ridge at the front of #4 green that runs across the enitre fairway is one of my favorite landforms(?) at Kingsley -- the way the fairway comes up the hill and then drops down to the green is something I've never seen on an another course -- It reminds me of a bullnose tile. (You can see it in the background of Tim's last picture below). It creates an element of blindness especially to front pins and really makes a precise shot necessary as anything just over the ridge will kick forward. The F&F conditions also create alot of short game options if you end up short of that ridge.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Greenfrom5Tee.jpg)
The front approach ridge was there and works very well to advance balls forward into the green and creates a certain amount of blindness to the surface from the landing area to the front part of the green, even from the high part of the ridge in the landing area. This makes the front pins difficult to get close to and demonstrates the importance of checking the pin location when walking from #2G to #3T.
The flagstick location in the picture is one of my favorite on the green (and there are many on this one!), as it is on a shelf just past the middle ridge before descending into the back bowl -- hard to stop it next to the cup but not bad to be in the back bowl, putting uphill to the hole for a makeable 20' birdie putt!
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What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway... ;D
Put the ol' cut swing on it. Nice.
Thats right. See the discussion immediately after my post re landing a driver on the raised fairway between two bowls. Not as big of a deal from #3 Fairway....
Ahhh, I see. It did not occur to me you would hit it over there on purpose. It's pretty wide and flat on that part of third fairway, isn't it?
This is a crime against golf -- it was never meant to be played from #3!!! >:( ;D ;)
Its all about giving the golfer options!! ;)
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What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway... ;D
Put the ol' cut swing on it. Nice.
Thats right. See the discussion immediately after my post re landing a driver on the raised fairway between two bowls. Not as big of a deal from #3 Fairway....
Ahhh, I see. It did not occur to me you would hit it over there on purpose. It's pretty wide and flat on that part of third fairway, isn't it?
This is a crime against golf -- it was never meant to be played from #3!!! >:( ;D ;)
Its all about giving the golfer options!! ;)
Options, options, everywhere!!!! I can't argue with that, just hope that golfers don't start thinking that via #3 is a good way to play #4! :)
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This is an awesome thread, but the course will probably be playable by the time you get to the 18th hole!
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This is an awesome thread, but the course will probably be playable by the time you get to the 18th hole!
Or under water with Polar Ice Cap melting. ;)
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My philosophy is if people are still chattering about the holes up for discussion why move along to the next one. Plus I was trying to get Mike D. the chance to get caught up which he has been doing nicely.
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My philosophy is if people are still chattering about the holes up for discussion why move along to the next one. Plus I was trying to get Mike D. the chance to get caught up which he has been doing nicely.
Tim,
Just bustin' on ya. This is a great thread. ;)
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I know
If I had been able to keep any food or drink down last night you probably would have had #5 by now. Hopefully by the end of the weekend.
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Get well, Tim...we can probably keep talking about #4 a while longer. ;)
Seriously, hope you feel better soon.
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Options, options, everywhere!!!! I can't argue with that, just hope that golfers don't start thinking that via #3 is a good way to play #4! :)
Its almost like I've uncovered something I wasnt supposed to ;)
Next time I get the chance to play Im going to aim for #3, take a picture of my ball in #3 fairway and email it to you!!! ;D ;)
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Options, options, everywhere!!!! I can't argue with that, just hope that golfers don't start thinking that via #3 is a good way to play #4! :)
Its almost like I've uncovered something I wasnt supposed to ;)
Next time I get the chance to play Im going to aim for #3, take a picture of my ball in #3 fairway and email it to you!!! ;D ;)
OK, I am expecting full High Rez primo photos and another great birdie! :o
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#5 is a par 3
222 from the Gold tee
191 from the Blue tee
While the scorecard says this is the 2nd par 3 on the front nine, from the tees that Mike dragged us back to this is really more like the 2nd par 5. This is an intimidating tee shot to say the least. Very little of the putting surface can be seen from the tee. There is a a small grassy runway leading up to the green, but the run-up approach just doesn't seem as appropriate here as it does so many other places on the course. The landing area short of the green does nothing to inspire confidence that this is the aiming point. This one feels more like get out your wood or hybrid and have a whack at it! The green, while no where near the size of the preceeding two holes, is still receptive to the shot (assuming you strike the shot true) since it plays larger than its size. Particularly to the right side pin we faced, it feels like everything feeds over there.
There's a whole lot of carry from this back tee, and if you dont strike a confident shot you may be faced with a recovery from Hell. There's plenty of long and scraggly stuff around, and most of the tee shot is carry.
In the afternoon (after Mike wasn't around to see us) we moved up a set of tees, which worked much better for our group. Smoother swings were evident, and we finished up with 4 balls within birdie range. The interesting thing was that we all got there in a different manner. We had the solidly struck shot headed toward the target, the shot that scooted on up and over the hill to the putting surface, and the well struck shot to the left middle of the green that fed over toward the hole.
This is another fun but demanding hole. It's also another great match play hole that could result in an 'x' on the card. I can't even imagine taking on the Gold tee with a strong head wind. I wouldn't have enough club!
The view from the tips. Everyone should experience it, but this isn't the tee from which I'd want to play my every day game
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king5tee.jpg)
Two views from a slightly less demanding, but still challenging, tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/5Tee.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/5Tee2.jpg)
The view of the green as you walk over the crest of the hill that obscures the putting surface from the view on the tee. Here is the result of the 4 shots, all struck in different manners that I mentioned. Proof that the green can actually be quite friendly if your tee shot finds it. You can really see the punchbowl effect from this angle. You can also see #1 pin just beyond this green.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/5Green.jpg)
Here's a view of the green from behind the hole. The countours look slightly different from back here and the punchbowl is a little less evident
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/5Green2.jpg)
A wider angle shot of the green from behind
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/5Green3.jpg)
A shot from fully behind the green with a nice look at the rear bunker
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king5green2.jpg)
A view of the green from above, standing on #2 tee. From this angle, you can clearly see how everything funnels to the right beyond the middle of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king5greenfrom2tee.jpg)
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The ridge at the front of #4 green that runs across the enitre fairway is one of my favorite landforms(?) at Kingsley -- the way the fairway comes up the hill and then drops down to the green is something I've never seen on an another course -- It reminds me of a bullnose tile. (You can see it in the background of Tim's last picture below). It creates an element of blindness especially to front pins and really makes a precise shot necessary as anything just over the ridge will kick forward. The F&F conditions also create alot of short game options if you end up short of that ridge.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/4Greenfrom5Tee.jpg)
The front approach ridge was there and works very well to advance balls forward into the green and creates a certain amount of blindness to the surface from the landing area to the front part of the green, even from the high part of the ridge in the landing area. This makes the front pins difficult to get close to and demonstrates the importance of checking the pin location when walking from #2G to #3T.
The flagstick location in the picture is one of my favorite on the green (and there are many on this one!), as it is on a shelf just past the middle ridge before descending into the back bowl -- hard to stop it next to the cup but not bad to be in the back bowl, putting uphill to the hole for a makeable 20' birdie putt!
Mike,
I prefer to play the whole the way when I played with you. Hit a drive and second shot short and then putt it from 60 yards off the green to a front pin (using the middle slope as a backstop) for a par.
-Brian
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Tim,
Interesting comments. I thought this was by far the LEAST nervewracking par three on the front nine despite its length. That may be more of a comment on the other two holes than the 5th itself. We had a far left pin, so it was a matter of hitting it in the bowl and trying to two-putt. This one, as with many at Kingsley, changes significantly depending on the pin.
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Tim,
Interesting comments. I thought this was by far the LEAST nervewracking par three on the front nine despite its length. That may be more of a comment on the other two holes than the 5th itself. We had a far left pin, so it was a matter of hitting it in the bowl and trying to two-putt. This one, as with many at Kingsley, changes significantly depending on the pin.
Andy - We haven't gotten to my comments on #9 yet! ;D
#2 just wasn't all that nerve-wracking for me. We had no wind and didn't face the dreaded front pin. I had a 9-iron in my hand. Missing the shot would have led to something nerve-wracking, but the tee shot itself wasn't intimidating.
For #5 I stood there with a 1-iron hybrid in my hand, a club I can often hit way too low and way too short when I mishit it, so the tee shot was very much on my mind. It was much less intimidating from the 190 spot.
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Tim,
I think we looked only at the back tee marker. That might have changed my mind as I'm much better with a long iron than a fairway wood. I think it was a 5-iron from 190 for me which didn't seem like that big of a deal. In any case, its probably my favorite of the par threes on the front, or probably the entire course.
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i love this hole. I could not get comfortable with the visual standing on the tee. I ended up hitting the 5 iron of my life, right at the pin ... long. Up the hill, long, is not where I'd recommend hitting your second shot from. :)
My brother bailed out right because he couldnt convince himself there was green behind the dune. The pin was back left on the hill, almost in a place where your choices were to make it or have a 20 footer back up the hill. Only pin position of the day that was borderline unfair.
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great par 3 with a different feel to it than any of the other par 3s at Kingsley. I think it is much more visually difficult than it plays. The "effective" green size is much larger than the green itself. I've seen balls miss the green 10 yards left and end up down in the right bowl of the green.
Back left pin is one of the toughest on the course IMO. I have never seen the front pin placement there, so I can't comment.
Contrary to the rest of the course, this hole doesn't photograph very well IMO. But in person the contours are in really cool (however they don't show up well in photos).
Here are some pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole5diagram.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole4a-1.jpg)
this pic shows some of the contours around the green
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole5b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole5c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole5d.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole5e.jpg)
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You have the choice of hitting a high, soft fairway wood, or a lower long iron that only has to carry the front ridge to reach the green. Let's say #5 is playing 205 for the day. It might be a 7-wood, but it could also be a 4- or even a 5-iron that just carries the ridge. The long iron tends to fly straighter, so the fairway wood might be considered the riskier play.
Because of the front ridge, the hole plays a bit shorter with a long iron. Kingsley #5 shares this trait with another modern punchbowl par 3, #15 at Ballyneal.
The back left pin is attainable, but it takes a very good shot. The back right pin is one of the easiest on the course, and yields lots of missed short birdie putts.
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The 5th is in direct contrast to the parallel 2nd, in that it accepts many shots into its long punchbowl setting versus the repellency of the ridgetop short 2nd. I like that they are adjacent to each other and you can see the location of the 5th's pin when you leave the 1st green.
I think the intimidation of the length of the shot is offset by the gathering of the bowl, making it the easiest of the par 3's overall (evidenced by the afternoon group's 4 on the green when they played a more comfortable tee). Although listed as the longest of the 3's from the back, the play is often shorter than the yardage with a shot in the approach that will run down to the pin. I am definitely more comfortable with this tee shot than some of the others, knowing the margin of error is wider than most, and I will usually have a good chance at a putt or inventive chip shot.
One of the interesting aspects of the hole is that, with the exception of the far right bowl, where most shots end up, it is very difficult to get the ball close to the hole with the tee shot. This makes it difficult to make a 2 under most circumstances but a 3 or 4 is very doable for most players. And there have been numerous hole-in-ones and short birdie putts when the pin is in the far right bowl.
I really enjoy playing a shot out to the left, over the small bunker in the hillside, and watch it careen out from behind the hill and across the green -- the delay is somewhat unnerving at first but satisfying once you see the ball reappear.
Mike
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I agree that the tee shot would be more comfortable, the 2nd time around. Standing on the tee for the first time, its hard to trust the caddie that there is a world beyond the hill on the left.
Also, while the right bowl might be as easy as it gets on the course, back left is as hard as it gets. With fast greens, its hard to get the ball up the hill and keep it there. :)
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I really enjoy playing a shot out to the left, over the small bunker in the hillside, and watch it careen out from behind the hill and across the green -- the delay is somewhat unnerving at first but satisfying once you see the ball reappear.
Mike
I never fancied you the type to enjoy a shot that disappears and then comes back into view after some delay. ;)
Seriously, with repeated play, I think I could bring myself to become more comfortable with the shot from the tips here. When I lack the confidence with that length of shot my weakness and uncertainty shine through and are reflected in the result.
We've got a bear of a slightly uphill 200+ par 3 at my home course and my shots were dismal there at first as I tried to do too much. They've gotten better with time.
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What's the harder par three, 2 or 5? It seems like the 5th is a classic example of Mackenzie's "make it play easier than it looks" philosophy.
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What's the harder par three, 2 or 5? It seems like the 5th is a classic example of Mackenzie's "make it play easier than it looks" philosophy.
Its hard to imagine the 135 yard PW could be harder to score with than the 220 yard 3iron.... ??? ;D
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One of my faves out at KC. 220 is a long way for most of us. I can probably get it out there 5/10 times, carry. I know I'd hate to not get it out to the green with the tee shot, luckily I made the carry. That's part of the fun. If you can get it out that far, youre likely to get a pretty decent look into the hole. First time out, stuck it to 6', so no problems there. 2nd go-around, went long, and had to PUTT the ball out of the bunker. That is just FUN, and a real treat you dont get to do very often.
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The safe play is to hit a 5 or 6 iron and land it just past the crest of the knoll in the approach. It always feeds onto the green and takes the back bunker out of play.
Joe
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What's the harder par three, 2 or 5? It seems like the 5th is a classic example of Mackenzie's "make it play easier than it looks" philosophy.
Depends on the pin locations on the particular holes, but I would say the 2nd is harder more often than not, with more opportunities for disaster. One might make more bogeys on #5, but more others on #2.
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2nd go-around, went long, and had to PUTT the ball out of the bunker. That is just FUN, and a real treat you dont get to do very often.
Jon,
I am going to have to have a talk with Dan Lucas about that -- one should never believe that a putt out of a bunker has a legitimate chance of being a decent play!!!! Bunkers need lips on them, requiring a real wedge shot so the hazard is really a hazard! :-[ :'(
Best,
Mike
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2nd go-around, went long, and had to PUTT the ball out of the bunker. That is just FUN, and a real treat you dont get to do very often.
I am going to have to have a talk with Dan Lucas about that -- one should never believe that a putt out of a bunker has a legitimate chance of being a decent play!!!! Bunkers need lips on them, requiring a real wedge shot so the hazard is really a hazard! :-[ :'(
Well, I did have to give it a pretty good whack to get it out... It was a better play than trying a 10 yard lob wedge out of the bunker where a littel thin contact puts me back on the teebox. Trust me, my knees were knocking on that one! I thought it was pretty cool!
Jon
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The safe play is to hit a 5 or 6 iron and land it just past the crest of the knoll in the approach. It always feeds onto the green and takes the back bunker out of play.
Joe
I would agree if one has the distance. I hit a 5-iron 190 at best and that's when I really get it. I didn't get the sense that was enough club for me from the tips.
In fact, I think I ended up using a 5 or 6 from the 190 tee and it was just about right.
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It can take 10 seconds for your tee shot to come to rest on #5. If the pin is back right you can just fly the ridge on the left and it will catch the downslope, kick forward and roll onto the green taking the break to the right and curving just short of the back bunker and back to the pin leaving a 2 footer for birdie. I meant to do that ;).
I believe it's a much easier hole than #2.
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The fifth is the least intimaditing one-shotter on the front nine by a wide margin. Knowing that there is a nice friendly bowl to hit into is a refreshing break from the narrow landing strip on #2 or the adventure I am probably anticipating subconsiously on the wild 9th. Many ways to play it, but I try to draw it into the bank on the left and two putt. If I get lucky maybe the pin is on the right and I get the thrill of watching the ball shoot down the slope for a birdie try.
The complex around the 1st and 5th greens as well as the 2nd and 6th tees is tremendous. A great place to take in all of the front 9 action, which is usually just a breeze, a few clouds and the view.
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Nick just mentioned a neat feature of the Kingsley design, the "quiet area" around the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th greens.
I keep hole-by-hole scores at a few places. My scoring average on the par 3s on the front nine are all about the same:
2 - 3.43
5 - 3.39
9 - 3.43
I was hot on #9 this year, with six pars and a birdie, which brought its average score down in line with the others. In general, I think #5 is the easiest of the three.
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I am curious what others think of the difficulty of Kingsley Club. I have never had anything but a great time golfing there. It is a fun course IMO. I have heard from others that they liked it, but thought it was a hard golf course, as in too demanding. The talk about #5 brought this to mind, because I doubt many high handicap golfers would consider #5 an easy hole.
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I am curious what others think of the difficulty of Kingsley Club. I have never had anything but a great time golfing there. It is a fun course IMO. I have heard from others that they liked it, but thought it was a hard golf course, as in too demanding. The talk about #5 brought this to mind, because I doubt many high handicap golfers would consider #5 an easy hole.
Ed,
I would bet that if someone really like the course, but thought it was a little too tough, they probably played Kingsley when the greens were running a little close to the threshold. That's really the only complaint I've ever heard about Kingsley's playability: when the greens get too quick, it can be close to impossible with some pin placements and on some greens.
cheers,
George
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Ed,
I think Kingsley is exciting golf.
You won't lose many balls, yet you can score a million or so if you're missing in the wrong places.
On the 5th however, I think it's a matter of where to aim. I aimed about 25 yards left of the green with a 4-iron, hit it close to that line, and ended up on the right edge of the green with about a 20-foot putt for birdie.
The first time through can be daunting, but I had a much better idea of where to aim and miss on a second playing.
I'm imagining that as one's knowledge continues to grow, the difficulty level would become much more manageable.
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"I'm imagining that as one's knowledge continues to grow, the difficulty level would become much more manageable."
True of every course, moreso with courses like Kingsley with complex playing fields. I'd rather discuss overall difficulty a little later, after more of the holes are covered. In general, I think it is pretty difficult, but guys who play both Crystal and Kingsley generally think Crystal is a couple shots harder. Crystal Downs is relentless.
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"I'm imagining that as one's knowledge continues to grow, the difficulty level would become much more manageable."
True of every course, moreso with courses like Kingsley with complex playing fields. I'd rather discuss overall difficulty a little later, after more of the holes are covered. In general, I think it is pretty difficult, but guys who play both Crystal and Kingsley generally think Crystal is a couple shots harder. Crystal Downs is relentless.
I will agree to table the difficulty discussion until the end or for another thread. When we have it though, I'd like to disagree on your Crystald Downs is relentless remark, I think that holes 13-16 are relatively benign.
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On the 5th however, I think it's a matter of where to aim. I aimed about 25 yards left of the green with a 4-iron, hit it close to that line, and ended up on the right edge of the green with about a 20-foot putt for birdie.
There are numerous ways to attack the hole from the tee on the 5th, depending on your tendencies in shot shape or to get to a certain flagstick location.
Low shots, high floaters, fades, draws, even straight bunts are all possible, depending on what you are trying to do. I love a nice low running shot that lands 25-30 yards short of the green in the gap of fairway -- the ball will release and roll down to the green. A carefully played draw or hard hook will careen further left and stay up on the upper shelf, but that is a daunting shot to attempt. Off-center hits will all gather towards the green, as it is a true punchbowl. The margin of error is very high for an average shot and very small for the exacting player trying to get close to the pin.
My greatest shot on the hole probably came on the opening day celebration -- the pin was on the left front in a very inaccessible spot, there was a little wind into us and we were playing from about 185 yards. My 5-iron flew true (an unusual aspect for me that day!) and finished one foot directly behind the cup! Of course, we couldn't see the cup on the surface of the green from the tee, but didn't see it come down to the right, so it had to go right past the cup. Good thing it didn't go in -- I never would have lived that one down (plus it was a full house and would have cost me a bundle!), but, oh, it was close! :o
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The bowled green 5th makes for some imaginative putting opportunities. Shivas and I had a blast and could've stayed there for half the day.
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"I'm imagining that as one's knowledge continues to grow, the difficulty level would become much more manageable."
True of every course, moreso with courses like Kingsley with complex playing fields. I'd rather discuss overall difficulty a little later, after more of the holes are covered. In general, I think it is pretty difficult, but guys who play both Crystal and Kingsley generally think Crystal is a couple shots harder. Crystal Downs is relentless.
I will agree to table the difficulty discussion until the end or for another thread. When we have it though, I'd like to disagree on your Crystald Downs is relentless remark, I think that holes 13-16 are relatively benign.
JCJ,
You certainly aren't required to postpone a difficulty discussion. I just rthink it makes more sense to discuss it later in the thread, after most or all of the holes have been discussed. Just my opinion.
I agree with the comment about holes 13 through 16. Relentless sounded good last night, but was a bad choice of adjective.
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This has GCA get-together written all over it, IMHO.
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The bowled green 5th makes for some imaginative putting opportunities. Shivas and I had a blast and could've stayed there for half the day.
It took my brother half the day to putt from the front right to a pin on the upper left shelf. He'd get close, then it'd roll back to him. And again and again. ;D
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The 6th hole is a par 4
396 from the Gold tee
373 from the Blue tee
Another hole that can leave the golfer confused on the tee. No good place to hit the ball. Unlike some of the other holes that come before this one, I actually found this tee shot more intimidating the 2nd time around. In our morning match, the group was 0 for 4 on finding the fairway. In our afternoon match, the group was 0 for 5. The morning shots were hit from close to the back tees. The afternoon shots were hit closer to the 373 marker.
Only one part of the fairway is really visible from the tee, and that part is of no use to the golfer. Land your ball in front of that first giant mound and I can only imagine the difficulty of the approach from there! To have a chance to keep your ball in the fairway, I think you need to hit your tee shot dangerously close to the row of bunkers on the right edge of the fairway, or be very long off the tee (the closer you get to the green, the less extreme the right to left sloping becomes.) I aimed at the bunkers, figuring to fade the ball a little left, and hit a dead pull right into the trash. Mike DeVries graciously volunteered to hit his bal that way as well, and off we went to look for our balls together.
If you aim at the middle of the fairway, your ball will surely roll hard left. The ball will almost certainly be completely out of the fairway and the slope is extreme enough that balls landing in the middle or left of the fairway could roll far enough left to be in some pretty tough long grass. From the tips, the tee shot is even more intimidating than the blue tees as the carry over the bunkers begins to look questionable to the one-time player.
The hole also provides a very different option and feel from a tee that plays around 300 yards. I suspect the green is drivable from this tee in the right wind for the longer hitter, which wuld be an interesting variation for a match. Not only is the hole shorter, but it plays from a different angle. The fairway is much more visible and looks to be much more receptive from this tee. I wouldn't recommend sacrificing your one shot to play the hole from the back tees to run up and play from the front, but with repeated plays I could see the allure of playing from the front tee from time to time.
Following punchbowl green, the crowned 6th green feels even smaller than it looks. Bunker await in the right, and a steep chipping area falls off to the left. Like many others on the site, I could see this green complex giving someone fits.
This is a fun hole to play, and yet another good par 4 on the front nine. While this was one of the holes I was better prepared for prior to the round (I had seen more photos of this hole than probably any other on the course) it was even more confounding and demanding off the tee than I expected.
The view from the back tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king6tee.jpg)
The view from the middle tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6Tee2.jpg)
The very different look from the front tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6FrontTee.jpg)
A closer look at the wild humps in the fairway and the bunkers from the angle of the back and middle tees
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6FW.jpg)
A view of the approach. The right to left slope of the fairway is evident.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6Approach.jpg)
A view slightly closer to the green as the fairway begins to level off
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6Approach2.jpg)
First look at the green from the approach
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6GreenFront.jpg)
The front of the green showing the slope
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6Green.jpg)
A view from behind looking back at the green and fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6Lookback.jpg)
Another angle from behind showing how the green plays smaller than its size
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6Lookback2.jpg)
The green as seen on the 4th tee. The fall off left of the green can be seen from this angle
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/6Greenfrom4Tee.jpg)
One more view of the green and bunkering from above and to the right of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king6green2.jpg)
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I'll have to disagree w/ you on this TB, I think the tee shot is a little easier the second time around. If you cut the ball, aim at the group of 4 trees and cut it into the hill. If you draw the ball, aim at the right bunkers and draw back into the fairway. Straight hitter aims dead at the green.
I dont mind the slanted fairway as it feeds the ball down to the left, which, IMO is the best way to attack the green.
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Along w/ the 4th, number six is one of my favorites at Kingsley. I'll chime in later, but here are some pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole6diagram.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole6.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole6b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole6c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole6d.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole6e.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole6f.jpg)
this photo shows the massive fall-off to the left of the green which is completely hidden from play (unless your eyes wander while you're on the 4th tee)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole6g.jpg)
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Course looks great. What is the idea behind the trees in the middle of the bunkers, or is the reverse :) It is difficult to say but looking at the pictures posted by Tim and those from the club website it looks as though they have planted some silver birches recently.
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Tim Bert,
Re the 6th, I think your comment about the short tee and the better look suggests playing it from the front the first time around and from the back later, or at least having a good long look before attempting the intimidating (I agree) drive from the back. Who said that we have to play victim to the architect's diabolical scheme to make us feel uncomfortable? :)
At Erin Hills, for example, we found the course much more fun if you mix up the tees from the standard rotations.
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What an awesome looking ball buster :D
I like that bump and run option into the front slope. Looks like it would be receptive.
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Tim,
This is another of the excellent semi-blind driving holes at Kingsley. I have to disagree with your assessment of the difficulty of the drive though. At least 2 out of 3 tee shots I have played there (a dozen rounds or so) have been in the fairway, generally leaving the ball in 8I to PW range with a relatively level lie. I do not mess with missing right because of the thick grass, bunkers and horrible angle from over there. As you know I am not particularly long off the tee, so I don't think the tee shot is as tough as seems to you. I think the tee shot may have gotten in your head. I know the tee shot on #7 has gotten into mine. :-[
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This is posted in Ran's interview with Josh Smith.
Dear Santa:
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/JSKingsley.jpg)
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One of my fondest memories of Kingsley occured on the 6th.
I was playing with a group of guys from the middle tees. They all teed off then it was my turn. I had pulled out a fairway wood but our forecaddy stopped me. "Bust your driver right at the green." The opening is pretty small and it's not like the hole is a typical "driveable" par 4. I gave it a try.
We were downwind and I hit what felt like a good shot. It was flying in the direction of the green so I thought it might catch the hill and roll left ending about 50 yards short of the green. I'd be happy with that.
After searching for a minute of two, caddy calls me over BEHIND the green. There sits my ball about 40 yards over the green. That's a shot and a result I would have never expected.
So what did I make? Curled in a knee knocking five footer for PAR. I love this place.
Ken
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From behind the green, looking back. I always liked the bunker facing the "apparent" wrong way....
(Trixie is walking up the approach to the green)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/P7300791.jpg?t=1229119428)
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I have to agree that the tee shot was LESS intimidating the second time around. Cutting it back in the hill is the safest play here. The first time around I played a draw up towards the right middle of the landing area and ended up in a bunker on the left.
Scariest pin placement: Back left. (I'll see if I have a good picture of this pin placement to illustrate just how scary it can be.)
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Brian,
Good call on that nasty little shelf in the back left. There are no short chips to recover from missing that shelf.
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The middle tee (current blue tee) is a relatively recent addition to the course. As metnioned, the blue tee used to be in front of the large bowl behind the first green. It is a completely different feel from up there and does not make it any less of a hole.
I suspect that originally Mike intended it to be a risk/reward hole, where if you wanted to smoke one down the middle you would have a pitch back to the green or maybe a 2 putt left for birdie.
I would encourage anyone visiting to try the front tee as well. It may sound short, but I can guarantee that nobody will come away thinking that the sixth is too easy!
Nick
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One other feature of this hole that I like is there is some sort of optical illusion (at least for me) that more often than not causes me to be fooled and come up short with my approach. It is particularly perplexing because I usually have a fairly short iron in hand.
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The tee shot on this hole was really difficult for me to commit to. I was not able to start the ball far enough right and ended up looking for a ball in the left rough both times. That's not a good angle to approach from and the lies weren't real friendly either. For me I think this hole would take a LONG time to figure out. Another great match play hole.
Joe,
Great observation on the bunker viewed from behind the green. I remember noticing that but I had forgotten about it.
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Wonderful short par 4.
Certainly plays shorter than its yardage, the tee shot is visually intimidating but actually has plenty of room.
It is the second shot and beyond that makes this hole so great.
If you are on the left side of the fairway you have the best approach, from the right side...ouch!! very difficult to hold the green.
The undulations on the greens are wonderful, and perfectly appropriate for a hole of this length.
If it is back pin attcck at your peril...and you had better have alot of spin on the ball...it is a tough shot from the back of the green back up to the pin.
This is one of those hole sthat you can spend hours chipping around the green for fun, so mnay shots to try and so little time!
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Coming in late with a pic of 5, and also one of 6
Great discussion..
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#7 is a par 5
569 from the gold tee
512 from the blue tee
We haven't had any partially blind or somewhat confusing tee shots on the front nine yet, have we? Chalk up one more, and then repeat exercise on #8.
This is a wild hole, starting with the view on the tee. Visually, the hole appears to be even longer than it really is thanks to the way that #8 fairway appears to be part of the playing surface unless you really focus. The hole winds back and forth, both left and right as well as up and down, on its way from the tee to the green.
For my game, this is nothing but a pure 3-shotter and each shot should be played with anticipation for the next. I suppose this could be a 2-shotter for the big hitters, but I'll let them chime in because I'm not even sure where you'd position your tee shot to have a good go at the green in two.
For me, the play was left off the tee and then right with the second shot. I didn't want to hang my drive out to the right in the scrubby rough and from the back tees didn't feel like going a little left would cut me off. In the afternoon round, when we played the blue tees, you had to watch going left a little closer as you could definitely bunch yourself behind some trees cutting off your angle of attack for the second shot.
The first time you walk down to the landing area in the fairway, this hole gets even more confusing. The second shot is likely blind, and both distance and left/right are important. Hit it too far and you might end up down in the valley with yet another blind shot up to the green. Lay back just enough and you should have a wedge or short iron in hand with a nice view of the putting surface.
The front left of the green is a bowl, and this is the pin we faced. As long as your distance control is good on the approach, the ball should funnel in to this position. Hit it long and you are faced with a nasty downhill putt. Leave it just a little short and left and the bunker is your reward. Miss short and right and you will likely tumble back further short and right. There are additional bunkers guarding the right and rear of the green.
I walked off this hole feeling like it might be one of the more criticized holes on the front nine, but I rather enjoyed it. It's a par 5 that may result in three consecutive blind shots, which is a bit quirky, but there is enough room for error out there that I think it works, especially for repeated play.
Another adventurous tee shot on the front nine
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king7tee.jpg)
A view from a slightly more forward tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/7Tee2.jpg)
A look at the fairway (sort of) walking off the tee. Here you can also really see the 8th hole and the visual deception. The 7th green is on the far right of this photo. Everything toward the top left of the picture is part of the 8th.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/7FW.jpg)
A view from the fairway near the landing area
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king7fwy.jpg)
The approach from the left side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/7Approach.jpg)
Approaching from the middle - a couple more peaks and valleys to go before the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king7approach.jpg)
One more view from the fairway, only one valley left
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/7Approach2.jpg)
A view of the bunker guarding the front of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king7green.jpg)
A ground level view of the green from the front - you can really see the contour that divides the front bowl from the back here
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/7GreenBunker.jpg)
Another shot of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king7green2.jpg)
Looking back on the hole from behind the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/7Lookback.jpg)
A view of the green from up on the 8th tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/7Greenfrom8.jpg)
A view of the 7th green (with the 8th fairway and green behind) taken from the 6th
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/78from6.jpg)
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Tim
Thanks for the series. I have been checking in often and all it has done is to confuse me more. Kingsley looks the sort of place one has to see to understand. I don't know if this is accurate or not, but it seems that thus far, many of the holes seem to have very wild fairways that mellow a tad around the green area. If this is true, do you think this helps with the playability issue (the course does seem as if its riding a knife edge of playability much of the time)?
In any case, Kingsley has moved into my Next Dozen.
Ciao
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Tim
I don't know if this is accurate or not, but it seems that thus far, many of the holes seem to have very wild fairways that mellow a tad around the green area.
Ciao
Sean,
The holes don't mellow much anywhere and certainly not near the greens--the course as a whole is very a wild ride. That's the one criticism I've heard, usually from people not on GCA. Its not a ball-eating course, but there are some slopes that carry shots well away from the greens if you hit it in the wrong place. Find enough of them, and I imagine it gets frustrating.
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The spirit surely has an adventure on this GC. Those that criticize any course for their failings to adeptly play it, aren't the sort of golfer whose opinion should be heeded.
Overcoming adversity is what gets the spirit's juices flowing.
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Adam,
So anybody who complains about playability should be discounted? I disagree with the folks I mentioned on this golf course, but I disagree with your premise as well. They find the course too severe. Considering the one fellow has been all around the world and arguably knows more about architecture than I do (maybe not saying much), I for one an entitled to give him the right to his opinion even if I disagree with it.
FWIW, his point was not that slopes carry balls away from greens, its that its overused and overly severe (balls going 30-40 yards or more) away from greens. I enjoy the features myself, but there are many severe slopes--#2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 13, 17 just off the top of my head.
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The first time I stood on the 7th tee it was beginning to get dark, and the hill on the right looked like it could be cut off with a good tee shot. It seemed to be the play at the time as it looked like the pines to the left were very close and nothing but trouble. Needless to say I did *not* make it over...
I've probably played this hole a dozen times and have hit a fairway wood off the tee at least half the time. I'm convinced that's the safest play off the tee as it takes care of that giant hillside and the trees on the left (for the most part). I've had a couple cracks at this green in two when I have hit a little cut driver up the center, but it's a risky play and the payoff isn't that great. The second shot has to be on a laser right at the green, and if it's not, as has been mentioned, trouble awaits. Short leaves you most likely plugged in one of the fronting bunkers, and both left and right leave very difficult up-and-downs. If you *can* hit it straight and long, the green's back to front tilt gives you a good chance of stopping it. So I suppose it's possible, and I know I'll try it again if I'm given the chance - it's just too damn fun not to try.
With all the tumbles and rolls in this fairway and all the decisions to be made, it's one of my favorite par fives, and certainly one of the most unique I've ever played. The third shot is almost always played from some kind of slope, and that crazy green requires some excellent touch. Tons of fun and another example of the blast that is a round at Kingsley.
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I believe the severity of the slopes are what protects the golf course...much like those at St Andrews.
The Old Course without its green and fairway contours would be nothing more than ho hum....Kingsley is the contour and what Devries ws ablt to do with them
As such he created a countoured masterpiece that draws upon all of the golfers resolve and talents.
The clver part is to make the course playable for all levels, whilst allowing the better player show hi supririty...thsi I believe was achieved.
Certainlt certain holes are more playable for the skilled player, but that is surely the definition of what a golf course should be like.
Almost every hole gives the player options...#2,#9 being the only clear exceptions in my memory.
Those are the only two that require total carry..everything else can be played along the ground, and even those two are shortish par 3's.
Anyway to #7:
Wonderful startegic par 5.
Typical of Devries' desire to give the player options on how to play the hole.
Reachable in two for the long hitter, but quite a penalty for missing on the wrong side of the green.
The green is exceedingly tricky and getting the ball close with your approach shot quite a challenge.
When the pin is short left..ouch...almost impossible.
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The spirit surely has an adventure on this GC. Those that criticize any course for their failings to adeptly play it, aren't the sort of golfer whose opinion should be heeded.
Overcoming adversity is what gets the spirit's juices flowing.
Adam
What a load of rubbish. Overcoming adversity has nothing to do with the matter. Nearly every golfer out there overcomes adversity (which is a bit of a heavy way to describe it - golf is afterall only a game) just by finding his ball and hitting it. One of the best measures of great design is walking that fine line between rambunctious and ott. Most everybody has their own definition of what ott is, but to ignore those whose opinions don't measure up to your philosophy hints of arrogance.
Ciao
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Sean..
A little harsh there aren't we..
I believe overcoming adversity is an integral part of the game, and if you fail to agree, perhaps that is becuase you have not played at a level where that is the case....not a judgemnet just a statement...
I will go along with " it is only a game" to a certain extent...but to those who compete on a regular basis it does indeed go beyond that.
A well designed golf course in my opinion is one that can test all players of all levels and that would include throwing in some shots that will create differing levels of adversity/difficulty that have to be overcome in order to play to ones desired level.
I think that is all Adam was trying to say.
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Sean..
A little harsh there aren't we..
I believe overcoming adversity is an integral part of the game, and if you fail to agree, perhaps that is becuase you have not played at a level where that is the case....not a judgemnet just a statement...
I will go along with " it is only a game" to a certain extent...but to those who compete on a regular basis it does indeed go beyond that.
A well designed golf course in my opinion is one that can test all players of all levels and that would include throwing in some shots that will create differing levels of adversity/difficulty that have to be overcome in order to play to ones desired level.
I think that is all Adam was trying to say.
Michael & Adam
It wasn't my intention to be harsh, its just the finality of the way Adam stated his claim that struck me. Adam, I apologize.
Yes, I too think meeting (or at least attempting to) the challenge is a key reason why the game is so appealing. But to say that no course should be criticized as ott because a player can't get the ball around is terribly short sighted. Is there a more apt reason to criticize a course? Sure, all of the reasons folks criticize are down to opinion and that is the point entirely. Of course there must be balance between challenge and fun and there is nothing easier to do than to create a course which is too challenging or not challenging enough. The very best of the great courses strike a balance.
Ciao
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Kingsley is indeed a wild ride and photos can only do so much to explain the course. I believe it would only get better the more you are able to play it. More play would help you better understand the places to hit and get an advantage or to play safer. I'm not a good player, but did not find Kingsley overly difficult. It's definitely a place you would want an experienced "guide" along with you.
The 7th is yet another good example of a Kingsley hole with visual deception off the tee. As Brian mentioned, the pines look very close from the tee. Here's a photo from just before you start down the hill to the fairway. It gives a little better sense of the width available for your tee shot. You can see some more fairway showing through the gaps in the trees left.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/kingsley/king7fwyfront.jpg)
And here we are looking back up towards the tee.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/kingsley/king7fwybacktotee.jpg)
This photo from the right rough shows the landing area for the second shot. You can see there is more room than perceived from the other photos.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/kingsley/king7rightrough.jpg)
A wild, quirky hole with another cool green.
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Tim
Thanks for the series. I have been checking in often and all it has done is to confuse me more. Kingsley looks the sort of place one has to see to understand. I don't know if this is accurate or not, but it seems that thus far, many of the holes seem to have very wild fairways that mellow a tad around the green area. If this is true, do you think this helps with the playability issue (the course does seem as if its riding a knife edge of playability much of the time)?
In any case, Kingsley has moved into my Next Dozen.
Ciao
I would agree with the comments that the greens are as wild as the rest of the course (just on a smaller scale in terms of elevation changes!)
I honsetly don't think the course rides on the edge of playability, particularly if you choose the right tee. For every one of these holes where there is a semi-blind tee shot with a carry, there is a more appropriate tee if you aren't comfortable taking on the full challenge.
For the record, we played two rounds - one mostly from the tips and one mostly from the blues (thought we did switch up here or there.) I played all 36 holes with 1 ball, and I'm not a straight and narrow kind of hitter. I'm usually all over the place. I shot 91 from the tips and 89 from the blues. I was a 10-12 handicap at the time. A little higher than my index on an adjusted basis (but only by a couple of strokes due to the slope and rating) and it was the first time I had ever seen the course. I think on a good ball-striking day, I could make a run at a lower 80s number, though it would require constant focus and attention on each shot.
This course was fun, fun, fun throughout. And I'm one that doesn't relish in overly difficult courses. I don't have fun when I'm getting beat up constantly. Kinsgley didn't do that, and if it did I had the option to move up a set of tees.
Overall, I thought the course teetered the line of playability less than the nearby world class offering and Doak 10 that is often discussed here.
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7 is one of the best holes out there. So many ways to play it and so many ways it can bite you in the butt. A well placed, controlled driver, 7 iron, wedge set me up for a couple (relatively!) easy 2-putts. My buddy went driver, 3/4 iron both times and wound up with bogeys. Up, down, left, right, the hole has it all. Mix that with the visual of the 8th hole, those trees on the left, and even more scary: the gunk on the right.
6 thru 8, what a great stretch of holes...
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This has GCA get-together written all over it, IMHO.
Terry,
When should we do it? I know the GCA crowd has a crowded schedule, but I would love to get together and hear the thoughts in person -- would be great fun to walk around with the hickories and/or short clubs and see the different variations people would try!
What does everyone think?
Mike
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Course looks great. What is the idea behind the trees in the middle of the bunkers, or is the reverse :) It is difficult to say but looking at the pictures posted by Tim and those from the club website it looks as though they have planted some silver birches recently.
Jon,
The paper birches were there originally and the idea was to build the bunkers around them and let them evolve together -- really more of a dune formation than individual bunkers as the cluster and landforms on either side of the approach work more together than as a single hazard.
Mike
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Hi All,
Sorry for the delay in response about #6, but here goes. . .
I find this the most difficult drive on the course, as the comfortable carry distance from the back tee is 220+ to carry the second hump and use the big R to L slope to feed the ball down into the flat for a short iron in. The newer blue tee in front of the back tees makes this quite a bit more doable, as it is 30-35 yards shorter. The original blue tee was set with the tee boxes on #2, which is a much different look, more inviting and just slightly shorter at 350 yards than the current 360 blue tee. For events, it is much easier to move people around with the new blue tee and it has been well-received. I really like the open feel and clear look at the banked fairway from #2 or the forward tees on #6 for a change and the shorter hitters or less confident strikers of the ball -- just another fun way to play it.
A consideration (and in the original drawing) for the green was near the big rock that is on the hillside behind the green, making the hole play about 465 (this is also a possible location for an alternate tee on #4 that was mentioned earlier in the thread). This was a brutally difficult hole, as the narrow approach gap restricted a view of the faraway green to a very small area in the fairway, and that was a really big strike to have any chance of getting home in two, as the valley behind the current green made it all carry to the far green. I pulled the green back to its current position and am glad I did -- much more diverse and reasonable to play, but still causing food for thought on recovery shots around the green or from a bad lie.
The optical illusion of the approach shot gets a lot of players, as the slight crown 25-35 yards short and in the narrow gap between the bunkers makes the green appear to be right behind it. Even knowing the yardage doesn't guarantee you can commit to it. The kicker at the right front is not visible but can be used to advantage, particularly if you are coming in from the left, where your approach will be softened a bit versus from the right which can propel it over the side.
The mass of bunkers in the 2 dunescapes just kind of evolved and I kept building them until it looked right. I never intended to build 26 bunkers on one hole (that is really pretty ridiculous! :o ), but that is what it came out to be and it looks right for the hole.
The green has some subtleness to it, with some of the breaks very difficult to read --remember that the back right slopes away!
One of my favorite views of the hole is looking at it from #4 tees and often a first-time player will ask what the yardage is to the par 3! It's a great way to check out where the pin is for later in the round. There is a great par 3 of about 195 yards from #4 tee to a green site left of the back tee on #7 that I have always liked, but it didn't fit in with other holes . . . maybe someday we could build it as an alternate . . . 8)
Cheers,
Mike
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Mike,
I think mid-June would be a great time for a GCA get together if your schedule allows.
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For scoring purposes, the key is getting the second shot to that plateau, left side of the fairway, 105-130 yards from the center of the green. For me, a good drive, followed by a mid-to-long iron. The second shot is generally a blind one, where you must pick a line. From that plateau you get a flat lie and a good look at what you're doing.
The back of the #7 green is hellacious. There are a couple of tiny pin positions back there, where par is a great score.
I'll disagree with Jon Heise and say I think it's one of the least interesting holes on the course. I play it the same way every time, so I can get a gap wedge in my hand. A good score is very rewarding here.
I'm more of a back nine guy at Kingsley. The front nine is funky, but the back nine is fabulous. In the meantime, bring on The Spolier!
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Anyway to #7:
Wonderful startegic par 5.
Typical of Devries' desire to give the player options on how to play the hole.
Reachable in two for the long hitter, but quite a penalty for missing on the wrong side of the green.
Michael, with that steep slope right and trees left, what are the options off the tee? It's hit a 5-wood down there and hope for the best. Similarly on the second shot, you're just trying to get it up to the right to have a look at the green with, again, a narrow window for success. I suppose from the blue tee it's reachable for the big hitters?
Good green, but getting there was more chore than fun for me. The only hole on the course I didn't care for.
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I love the movement of #7: from the tee, fairway, second shot landing area, approach, green surrounds, green etc.
The only real issue I have with the hole is the lack of real possibilities from the tee. I'm surprised more people haven't been talking about the trees in the landing area, I would have thought those would have created a pretty good debate.
I think the green and bowl right of the green are really good. I also think the second shot landing area, the "shelf", is really cool w/ all the movement inside of it.
What is everyone's opinion on the trees?
here are some pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole7diagram.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole7.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole7f-1.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole7a.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole7b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole7c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole7e.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole7d.jpg)
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Merry Christmas everyone!
The 8th hole is a par 4
365 from the gold tee
349 from the blue tee
The 8th is a short par 4 with a stand-out green complex (on a course full of them.) The tee shot can be blind, but only if you choose to make it so. The left side of the fairway is fully visible from the tee and offers plenty of room to hit a safe shot out there. The problem the golfer faces is the giant bunkering in the middle of the fairway at about the point most of us would like to hit our driver. This is a hole where most of us will choose to club down on the tee.
The right side of the fairway is blind, and no wider if you choose the driver. If you opt for less club, there is plenty of room to the right. One simply needs to muster up the courage to trust the landing area since it can't be seen. All that is seen of the right side is a large peak of the rolling terrain, and it is filled with bunkers and rough. Still, a confidently struck shot will have no trouble clearing this visual distraction.
The reason for opting for the right side, even though it is blind and does not offer any more width, is to improve the angle to the green. From the right side, the golfer can eliminate the greenside bunker from the equation (in most cases.) From the left side, the approach must attack this bunker, which is not one from which you wish to play. Although one can skip the bunker challenge approaching from the right side, it is crucial not to stray too far right. The right side of the green can deflect wayward shots further right, creating a difficult recovery chip or pitch.
Just behind the green is an abrupt incline that makes it very tempting as an aiming spot for rear pin positions. Distance control is important as too much and the ball will wind up in the rough. Spin control is necessary as well as one could easily spin a wedge shot back a long way from that hill when the surface is running quickly.
I love the green setting of this hole. Viewed from behind, the green location is probably one of my two favorites on the course, along with the 12th. It just seems to fit the surroundings. This hole is just one of many excellent short par 4s on the course.
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/8Tee.jpg)
The 8th fairway, viewed from well behind the desired landing area
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king8fwy.jpg)
Another look at the fairway from the knob on the right
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/8FW.jpg)
Looking back from the right side of the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king8.jpg)
The approach from the right side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/8Approach.jpg)
Two views from the greenside bunker to help explain the importance of not being in it
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/8Bunker2.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/8Bunker.jpg)
The green from behind
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/8Lookback.jpg)
The 8th from above and behind - one of my favorite looks on the course
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/8Lookback2.jpg)
Another view of the fairway and splendid green complex from one of the 9th tees
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/P1010288.jpg)
Special thanks to Mr. Mayhugh, who demonstrated a unique knack for capturing approach shots, unbeknownst to me, that led to birdies on more than one occasion in 2008.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/kingbert8.jpg)
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8) Can we skip #8 and get onto #9.. frankly # 8 was for me all about playing without greed and ego..
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8) Can we skip #8 and get onto #9.. frankly # 8 was for me all about playing without greed and ego..
Well, that, and actually hitting and holding the green with a wedge in your hand.
The three bunkers in the face of the hill that you drive over are known as the "Three Amigos".
There is some debate about the best angle of approach. Some people feel the best strategy is to drive over the Three Amigos, leaving an approch from the right side, with no bunkers in line with the second shot. I prefer to try for the left center, just short of the big center fairway bunker, then try from that angle, which opposes the general slope of the green a bit better.
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I love the green on this hole. There really is no easy shot into that green that I have been able to find. The overall tilt back to front is just one of the challenges you face on this approach. From behind the central fwy bunker you have to really know your yardage as you don't see much, if any, green and the tendency is to be above the pin which makes 2 putting problematic. Pins on the right are guarded by the dropoff on the right side of the green. Short left is bunker, short right is going to roll back quite a ways. Long leaves a very delicate downhill chip. I haven't missed the green left, but I can't imagine it is a picnic over there either.
Overall just a really solid hole with a great green. Always happy to make par there.
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Interesting hole from tee to green. The first time around our caddie has us aiming to the right with a driver, a very aggressive line. I ended up in the weeds to the right of the fairway. The second time around I played with a 3-wood short of the fairway bunker which still only left me with a nine iron in. I don't see the advantage to going right, as you can see from some of the pictures looking back towards the tee there really isn't much fairway at all over there, too much risk for the reward in my opinion.
I agree it's a really difficult green to hold. I can see if the course got too firm that this hole could get away from you with the way the green in sloped in the front. It's not to difficult to putt off the front of the green if you're putting towards the fairway and then the ball would roll way down into the fairway.
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Well, that, and actually hitting and holding the green with a wedge in your hand.
If you don't hit and hold and it runs off the right side you end up with a 20-30 yard pitch off a tight lie to a green 10 feet above your head. At least as hard as the shot you just missed.
I prefer to try for the left center, just short of the big center fairway bunker, then try from that angle, which opposes the general slope of the green a bit better.
I'll give this a try next time may help me avoid the above.
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8) Certainly didn't mean to be dismissive of the 8th and its treacherous green complex, but having played it only once (layup to bunker and short iron to center of green) and leaving with a par, I thought it was one of those pauses or transitions before something bigger.. which I think #9 is..
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For the golfer that enjoys the visual challenge of figuring out what the ground is doing versus what the architect has done to both guide and mis-direct, the tee shot on 8 is one for the adrenal glands.
The movement of the ground is so interesting, and so Michigan, it's pure heroin.
JK, Would this hole at KC be the most similar to any hole at BN?
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For the golfer that enjoys the visual challenge of figuring out what the ground is doing versus what the architect has done to both guide and mis-direct, the tee shot on 8 is one for the adrenal glands.
The movement of the ground is so interesting, and so Michigan, it's pure heroin.
JK, Would this hole at KC be the most similar to any hole at BN?
#14
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8 was the most boring hole on the course for me, I had the same approach shot into the green all 7 times, from the Arata memorial tree grove on the left side directly across from the fairway bunker...... ;D
I loved 8 because it was not as nearly visually intimidating as 7, and yet it is just as diabolical if you dont put the ball where it needs to be off the tee and with your approach. I actually had a few decent rounds going before butchering 7 - 9.......
Still waiting to voice my opinion on that short par 5 hole coming up next...... ;D
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....all 7 times, from the Arata memorial tree grove on the left side ;D
Still waiting to voice my opinion on that short par 5 hole coming up next...... ;D
good stuff Mark! :D
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I'm kind of surprised to hear quite a few people mention that this was one of the more bland/boring holes on the course for them. This is one on my favorite looks off the tee, and I really like the different options there as well.
I think this is one of the harder approaches on the course: too much spin or not enough distance, and you are coming back 40 yards away from the hole. If you end up above the hole, a two putt is excellent. My play has been a five wood right at the bunker (staying short), and playing for the middle of the green, trying not to put too much spin on it with a wedge/short iron.
For some reason this hole just fits my eye...
Here are some pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole8a.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole8c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole8d.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole8h.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole8e.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole8b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole8f.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole8g.jpg)
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Has anyone smashed a drive here to the right of the central fairway bunker and stayed in the fairway? That seems to be an awfully risky play, considering the slope wants to kick you into the bunker and the fairway is particularly narrow in that corridor. With the tough angle from the left fairway, I tend to hit a long iron over the knob on the right and let it coast on down to wedge distance short and right of the central bunker.
It's all about getting a comfortable second here, at least as comfortable as it can be. It's one of the scariest targets on the course with the visual of what awaits if you miss, particularly short or left. In that regard it's kind of an appetizer for what awaits you on the 9th. That said, I've seen some incredible up and downs for pars here. Great short four and a really fun match play hole.
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8) On a hole, one plays prudently and scores well.. time and time again.. one plays aggresively, has more fun/different challenges and pays many different prices en route to the next tee.. same hole. Some say great.
Is it really the reward or simply the fact that it keeps enticing one to try differrent approaches because it is just a relative pause in the flow of the course routing. Play it enough times and you certainly learn all the consequences. How do folks play it in competition during match play and stroke play.. i'd assume very differently.
No knock, just considering the alternatives.. and how scared do club members get on many views/backgrounds here.. respect is one thing, been there done that repetition certainly lowers player anxiety.. except perhaps for the 9th, where experience is perhaps more like a Greek Tragedy
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#9 is a par 3
There are two sets of tees, the southern set and the western set.
The scorecard lists the gold tee as 171 and the blue tee as 128.
The web site lists the gold as 157 and the blue as 133.
I am not sure from which set of tees those yardages are taken.
My recollection is that the yardage on the hole played shorter from the western tee.
The green is a bit of a boomerang, with a wing branching out toward each tee. The tee shot is mostly carry from either tee, though the carry sholdn't really be an issue. The unfortunate player who fails to make the carry - likely due to nerves - is left with an extremely difficult recovery. Much of the inside of the boomerang is protected by bunkers. The outside of the boomerang needs no such defense due to the shape of the land.
The day we played the course, the pin was set out on the wing of the green nearest to the south tee. We played the south tee in the morning and the west tee in the afternoon. The tee shot to this pin location was sufficiently terrifying from both tee sets in my opinion.
From the south tee, the south portion of the green looks like a tiny sliver. There is no margin for error right or left, though the best miss may well be left in the bunker. Missing right will kick the bal away from the green. Missing long and right will leave a nearly impossible up and down, as I discovered the hard way.
From the west tee, the south portion of the green still looks like a sliver. The green is built so that landing on the west portion of the green will still allow a putt to go around the corner. Landing here is is probably the safest best, unless you choose to opt for the previously mentioned bunker. There is an additional option from the west tee, and that is missing slightly left where the hill should send the ball back down to the green.
While the overall green size feels sizeable, the shape makes it play much smaller. This is one of the most demanding holes of this length I've played. It requires nothing but precision on the tee shot and all shots that follow. A blow-up 'X' is definitely a possibility here. A real match-swinger at the turn.
The divine back nine awaits!
The intimidating view from the South tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king9.jpg)
It isn't a good idea to miss short from the South tee. Check the wind and make sure you've got enough club! Oh, and make sure to execute.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king9belowgreen.jpg)
The less intimidating (??) view from the West tee.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/9Tee.jpg)
A closer look from the West tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/9Green.jpg)
Another look from the west - at green level
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/9Green2.jpg)
A look at the green from the west portion
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/9Green3.jpg)
A look from behind shows the difficult angle that awaits he (me) that misses the green long and right when playing from the South tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king9greenfromclubhouse.jpg)
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What to say about the 9th? That's one of the most nerve-wracking tee shots I've had on a par 3 w/o there being water or OB. I don't think the photos do it justice. If you're aiming for the right side of the green, you'd better be precise. The entire green plays very shallow, but especially this side. I can't wait to get a chance to play it again.
In a windy day, aim left and try to minimize the scorecard damage. ANOTHER great match play hole.
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I meant to comment that I also really like the 8th hole--not the fanciest at Kingsley but a fun one that can bite the golfer that doesn't give it the proper respect.
I'd have liked to have seen the 9th with different pin placements. As much as any short hole I've played the pin there seems to make a HUGE difference. I have a hard believing any of them are easy, however.
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I have only played Kingsley three times but have hit about 20 shots from each of the two main tees. I have no clue how to play the hole. It requires a precise shot and demands great execution. I can't decide whether I like the hole or hate it. All I know is that I want another shot at it.
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The 9th is the shortest par five on the planet, and I was the only one in my foursome to score a birdie four there last time, although the others all got their pars. ;)
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I have only played Kingsley three times but have hit about 20 shots from each of the two main tees. I have no clue how to play the hole. It requires a precise shot and demands great execution. I can't decide whether I like the hole or hate it. All I know is that I want another shot at it.
WT...heck?
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This is the kind of hole I'd love to have in my backyard. Take a few wedges and short irons and have at it. Being given the chance for an up and down (miraculous though it'd have to be) makes this hole MUCH more interesting and exciting to me than the 17th at Sawgrass.
A couple more photos:
A look at the southern lobe from right of the green:
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/bsleeman/Kingsley/P1000628.jpg)
And the scariest: a top shelf pin:
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/bsleeman/Kingsley/P1000649.jpg)
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The wildflowers through the course add to the rugged beauty.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3295/3158495244_e89b2abd8d.jpg?v=0)
This was the view for my second shot.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/3157665217_639736cede.jpg?v=0)
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I'd say the greatest drawback of the 9th hole is the walk between tee and green, which is straight downhill, then severely uphill, if one decides to walk directly to the green. You might be better off just walking an extra hundred yards on the cart path, but I usually just follow the ball and then take it as a personal aerobic challenge, scaling the face of the mountain that is the 9th green, breathing heavily in rhythm to my footsteps as my thighs pulse with blood as I...
Had a great year playing the hole, six pars and a birdie! It's too easy.
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This has GCA get-together written all over it, IMHO.
Terry,
When should we do it? I know the GCA crowd has a crowded schedule, but I would love to get together and hear the thoughts in person -- would be great fun to walk around with the hickories and/or short clubs and see the different variations people would try!
What does everyone think?
Mike
Mike,
You know the drill... Pick a date and they will come. I just sure hope you don't pick anything in April ;D Hopefully those making the trip get to not just walk but play this beauty. ;)
Happy New Year!
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I have no experience with the use of nitroglycerine, but I am thinking that the 9th at Kingsley might be a good place to experiment.
I hit 5-iron from the back tees, into the wind. The hole location was back middle-right. I made about the best swing I had made all day. Standing on the tee watching it, my foursome congratulated me on hitting the best tee shot of the group. The ball landed on the front of the green, bounced once, rolled up to a spot about six feet short and slightly left of the flagstick, the wrong side of the ridge, and proceeded to roll back, perhaps 30-35 feet, off the green to the front left. And bumped up against a shaggy cut of rough, giving me little chance to control the next shot. I hit an okay chip, keeping the ball below the hole, but with zero spin. It rolled off the green, to the right side falloff, and never stopped until it had rolled down through the closely-mown portion, which basically has no bottom to it, into heavy rough, leaving me now a 20-yard pitch to a tiny target that was eight or ten feet above me. I chipped that ball onto the green, settling it again below the hole, but it once again rolled off the same way my tee shot had rolled off. I now found myself laying three, within just a few feet of where my tee shot had been. But now I had a little better lie to get grooves onto the ball. So I hit a more lofted, spinning shot, and hit it on a higher, more aggressive line to the hole, thinking that the conservative line staying below the hole hadn't done me any good. I hit that shot, not terribly, but again the green simply wouldn't accept it. And, a ball that came within a revolution or two of stopping on the green again took the slope and went down the hill to the right, this time taking the roll from the closely-mown runoff area and scooting farther off to the right and leaving me a harder angle than on my second shot. Laying four and facing a terrible disaster (not to mention holding up my buddies on the tee behind us, whose laughter was audible 174 yards away), I then grabbed sand wedge and quickly tried to hit a shot that would come to rest anywhere on the green. I hit a soft shot into the center of the green, but that of course is where the center ridge is, and that ball drifted to the front {edit - left} collar of the green. Five. Now, facing essentially the same shot for the third time on a Par-3 hole, I simply lagged a putt to a place on the green, about the size of a billiard table, where it would not roll off. I am sucessful, with my sixth shot. I hit another conservative putt, below the hole, seven. Petrified of what was left (the last time my ball was this close to the cup on this hole was on my tee shot, for a moment), I missed that putt on the low (right) side and watched it drift scarily away. Eight. I then made a rather good comeback putt from about two feet. Nine.
We've all had occasions where we hit three cummy shots but still managed to make par on a Par-4. Or even where we managed to make birdie after three unremarkable shots on a Par 5.
On the 9th at Kingsley, I hit about seven good shots and wound up with a 9.
Somebody please inform me how that hole is supposed to be played, because it is the one incomprehensible hole on a course that I otherwise admire very much.
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The first time I played it was from the South tee, made a par....The next 6 times from the west tee, and never came close. It is next to impossible to hold the ball on that green downwind from the west when the pin is in the front and I believe Mike actually said the best play might be to put it in the front bunker and try and get up and down.
I love this hole, it looks very easy from the west tee, but it is just waiting to inflict diabolical sabotagy on your round.
there doesnt seem to be a safe place to miss on the hole either, which is something I both like and hate at the same time........
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I think the inevietable poll question should be asked here...and let me first say I haven't played the course, only seen it in pics.
Without mentioning the dread U-word, (unfair)...is this hole over the top? The hole looks brutal in pics and when folks say the pics don't do it justice, then it makes me think yikes. Don't get me wrong, I love quirk by the truck-loads but is this just too much?
So for those who have played it, its time to wiegh in:
A yes vote means yes its over-the-top, perhaps it needs to be softened.
A no vote means its fine as it is, its good fun playing the worlds shortest par 5. ;D
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My vote is yes it is a bit over the top and no I wouldnt change a thing about it........ ;D
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My vote is yes it is a bit over the top and no I wouldnt change a thing about it........ ;D
Oh great Mark, now you've fouled up the whole thing. ;D
I know some people prefer to remain anonymous, so you can vote here if you wish.
http://kbjames.freepolls.com/cgi-bin/polls/007/poll_center.htm
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Kalen
I wouldn't have felt deprived and wouldn't have minded one bit had the 9th been completely different than what we encountered.
That being said - it isn't unfair it is just extremely difficult. It is far from my favorite hole on the course. It is probably one of my least favorite but that is because most of the others are really, really good. I don't think it needs to be changed.
You'll be hard-pressed to get a straight yes or no from most that have played it. More than one word is needed here.
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Tim,
Thats sounds good, thats why I didn't techincally use the U-word.
I would never even begin to suggest completly changing the hole. FWIW, I would think the rear of the green complex area could be softened a little to allow some type of recovery or even tee shot option....while leaving the front as is.
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The 9th is the rare kind of golf hole that you think about and ponder over before, during, and after your round. It is severe, ruthless and tempting. I love it.
From the west tee, I've had the most success aiming at the very front left corner of the green. The ball feeds a little right and even when downwind, the slope behind the front left corner helps to kill the momentum of the golf ball.
It's the kind of golf hole where a bogey is often a good score and a par is fantastic. Playing into the front bunkers and then trying for an up-and-down from there is often a great strategy. You must not, however, get too aggressive with your bunker shot or you can leave yourself in an even worse position.
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It's over the top. It's not irrevocable, despite my snarling reference to nitroglycerin. (A reaction, like all good reactions, borne out of rage, humiliation, frustration and personal failure :D)
What I think the hole clearly needs: First, this hole is crazy from 170 to 180 yards. Somebody help me out here -- have you lasered the distance from the back/South tees? It's long! This is a good hole from about 130-140 yards.
Second, that falloff area to the right of the green; it is okay to have that fall off, but there has to be something to catch the runoff. As it is now, balls just roll off, and on and on and on...
And there's too much rolloff on the front of the green, such that balls landing reasonably gently in the middle of the green can roll off the entire surface, to rest in the no man's land in the front intermediate cut. (I'm not describing this very well, I am afraid.
Maybe, if somebody told me how the hole is supposed to be played, I'd have better ideas on how to fix it.
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Chuck,
This is why I was suggesting a bailout area long which doesn't seem to exist right now. It looks like going long is the worst play of all because its an impossible shot to try to hold coming back down the green.
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Chuck,
This is why I was suggesting a bailout area long which doesn't seem to exist right now. It looks like going long is the worst play of all because its an impossible shot to try to hold coming back down the green.
Yeah, you are quite right; long is such a disaster, such an inescapable jail (apparent even as you first walk onto the tee) that no one in my group evaen dared to tempt it. With all my floundering, "long" or "deep" was never an option. This of course related to the back-right pin placement too.
I'm okay with that, insofar as the penalty for "long" emphasizes the need to tempt the fates that await a short play. What I'd insist on is something that affords something of a bailout right or left, which would also have the effect of emphasizing the green contours that await a chip shot lateral to the hole.
I think what I might do is to leave the green as small as it is (it is a lovely, albeit intimidating, setting as it is, in good scale with the existing bunkering, the hillside, etc.) but right and left of the green need some work...
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I refuse to use the U-word, but a golf hole can be badly designed or just plain stupid. This isn't one of those--it's a good hole that would get better with some softening. My suggestion would be to pare down the slope on the left side to make it safer to play over there while still leaving a difficult up n down. That may not be technically possible, or was it ruled out for cost reasons?
Playing into the front bunkers and then trying for an up-and-down from there is often a great strategy. You must not, however, get too aggressive with your bunker shot or you can leave yourself in an even worse position.
From the west tee I found one of the bunkers on the right, flopped it up, and had 4-footer for par when the pin was cut on that little shelf in front.
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I'm loving all the discussion. Chuck needs to go back and make another nine before feeling so strongly about it...... ;D
I was playing with Mike one day(maybe also with Paul Thomas? or David Cronan?) and as we approached no. 9, there was a contingent of Vietnamese who were going to meet Mike at the turn...they were doing an "interview" for a project over there. Anyway, I missed to the right(from the south tee) and decided the play was a 90 degree- from- target pitch into the hillside, letting the ball come back to the pin. I pulled it off wonderfully, leaving a two footer for par, which I made. But, it was funny and a bit strange to have a bunch of Vietnamese, in Northern Michigan, applauding a total stranger who had made a nice little chip.
Joe
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...
A look at the southern lobe from right of the green:
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/bsleeman/Kingsley/P1000628.jpg)
This is a beatiful photo, and I think it illustrates what I had been trying, perhaps not so successfully to describe. Look at the closely-mown area falling off from the side of the green. You see how it nicely takes errant balls away from the green. That would be okay, if those balls were directed to an area where they were held, for a sporty play back into position on the green. But the runoff doesn't go to such a place. It just goes; and goes and goes, so that balls run through the closely-mown area to the rough. It is that area that is too severe. The closely-mown area merely acts as a mass transit system to take balls that may have been close, and run them off into neverland. I'd have no problem if that closely-mown area were a large collection area. But there is no "collection."
In the case of my 9, the red flagstick was where the blue flagstick is in the picture of the back-right pin. Imagine you are down that hill, with your ball having spilled through the full length of the closley-mown falloff, into the longer rough (there is nothing to stop any ball from doing that) and the hole is located about 12 paces to the right of where you see the red flag; toward what is the back of the green.
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C'mon Chuck...quit your whining. ;)
Seriously, I loved hearing your story.
Now, I especially feel good about my birdie 4. ;D
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Chuck:
When that photo was taken, a player in our group hit it into that exact area you're speaking of, only his ball stayed in the lighter rough and did not run into the really tall stuff. He was a couple under at that point and walked off with a 7 (after unsuccessfully trying a Phil Mickelson type flop shot directly at the pin).
Afterwards we all tried a few shots from where his ball had been, and the shot that Joe describes (on the highest bank toward the golf shop above that blue pin) was the one that was most successful. The tricky thing there was getting the ball to descend that bank at just the right angle - a little light and it was coming right back toward you, and a little strong and it was headed into the bunkers in between the two lobes.
Other shots got it onto the green including a few bumps running up the bank right of the flag in this photo and then trickling down, but they were tough to control as well.
Stiff penalties but it invites some serious creativity. Sometimes the best bet is just to hit it back over the green into those bunkers for a better chance at recovery.
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For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two? Both look absolutely incredible.
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For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two? Both look absolutely incredible.
It's one of the few comparisons where I'd sit firmly on the fence and go 5-5. I love them both and you'd want as many repeated plays as you could get on either one. Add Sand Hills to the mix, and I'd probably go 3-3-3 and flip a coin for the 10th round. They're all three different and all three wonderful.
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I haven't followed this discussion closely, but looking at the photos of the 9th here, then thinking about #2, #11 and #16, Kingsley's probably a bit like Rye, in England. I can't recall who said it, but when asked what are the most difficult shots at Rye, someone answered: "The second shots at the par-3s!"
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For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two? Both look absolutely incredible.
That's a really good question. I might have a slight preference for Ballyneal (say 6-4), but I think Ballyneal is a bit easier than Kingsley and that probably factors into it for someone of my skill level.
Another interesting comparison would be Crystal Downs & Kingsley. Crystal Downs gets the nod 6-4 or 7-3, but it's pretty close. Can you tell I liked Kingsley a lot?
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I'm with Chuck and Mark on this one. And Jimmy, the only thing to ponder is how terrible you feel after you have enjoyed the course to this point and you come to a basically unplayable hole in most cases which can totally ruin your round and your day. I think the hole should be softened also. The pro I talked to that day said that with firm greens and the front right pin we had that there was virtually no way to score on that hole.
If I had 10 rounds in that area, I'd go with 5 Crystal, 3 Arcadia, and 2 Kingsley and with regard to Sand Hills/Ballyneal/Kingsley..... you'd be better off just staying in the hills area and playing S.H. and Ballyneal 5 and 5.
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I think the comments about #9 being unplayable are a little over the top. The hole rewards a good shot and penalizes a poor shot or a marginal shot to an aggressive target. No matter where the pin is, a play to the left edge of the green is often times the best play. Yes, this can leave a very difficult two-putt, but you can pretty mush assure yourself of no worse than bogey unless you get overly aggressive with your birdie putt.
In some wind conditions, you can not fire at certain flags. There is nothing wrong with that. It takes discipline to choose a line 50 feet from the hole and be satisfied to leave yourself with a long and difficult putt. If you do end up in a bad spot after your tee shot, often times the smart play then is to also play safe and leave yourself with a long par putt.
Some similar comments are often made about #2 as well. Once again, it's a hole that rewards an aggressive swing to a conservative target.
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For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two? Both look absolutely incredible.
That's a really good question. I might have a slight preference for Ballyneal (say 6-4), but I think Ballyneal is a bit easier than Kingsley and that probably factors into it for someone of my skill level.
Another interesting comparison would be Crystal Downs & Kingsley. Crystal Downs gets the nod 6-4 or 7-3, but it's pretty close. Can you tell I liked Kingsley a lot?
John, I would agree that CD would get the nod at about 7-3. No disrespect to Kingsley-it is just a fact that CD is that good. The front 9 at CD is as good as you will see. Not a bad hole in the group. Hopefully we can get back up there soon-I enjoyed our games there, Jack
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For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two? Both look absolutely incredible.
That's a really good question. I might have a slight preference for Ballyneal (say 6-4), but I think Ballyneal is a bit easier than Kingsley and that probably factors into it for someone of my skill level.
Another interesting comparison would be Crystal Downs & Kingsley. Crystal Downs gets the nod 6-4 or 7-3, but it's pretty close. Can you tell I liked Kingsley a lot?
John, I would agree that CD would get the nod at about 7-3. No disrespect to Kingsley-it is just a fact that CD is that good. The front 9 at CD is as good as you will see. Not a bad hole in the group. Hopefully we can get back up there soon-I enjoyed our games there, Jack
I'd go 7-3 Kingsley because if I played more than 3 rounds at Crystal Downs my handicap would look more like 25 than 10. Seriously, both are great courses, and while I agree with Jack's front nine comment re: CD, the back is what makes the difference. I thought Kingsley's back nine holes really shined.
Can you tell I liked Kingsley a lot?
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Without reading all of the posts in their entirety regarding the 9th, it is certainly one of the toughest and most intimidating for all who've played it.
In my time caddying at Kingsley during the summer of 07, this hole was one that people either loved or hated.
The easiest way to approach this hole is to miss LOW, and by low, I mean keep your ball underneath the flagstick or "Inside the Elbow". For those who have played it, and for those who haven't, the green is "L" Shaped. By keeping the ball underneath the hole you give yourself an EXTREME advantage as opposed to those balls on the outside of the elbow.
The photo below details the strategy. Missing in the GREEN area will give a good chance at saving par, because everything is uphill. Missing in the RED area leaves it almost impossible to keep the ball on the green, due to the severity of the downhill slope.
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j50/bigjongolfer/Kingsley9th.jpg)
I think it is a great hole, you just need to err on the low side. This is definately a hole, where ANY number is a possibility!!
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Another picture showing some of the movement of the 9th green.
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j50/bigjongolfer/IMG_5340.jpg)
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Is the 9th at KC hard? Yes!
Can the 9th at time be borderline "unfair": Yes
Are there impossible pin placements? Yes
Can it drive you crazy? Yes
Is it a blast to play? YES!
Do I love this hole? YES!
Usually you have less than 150 yards into this green (unless playing from the back south tees, which are a little long for this hole IMO). As has been mentioned above, there are spots to miss and spots not to miss. If you respect the difficulty of the green and play smart (which can mean playing away from the pin), as opposed to aggressively, the hole can be managable.
This is a hole where you just need to enjoy the challenge and embrace it. And hopefully you're playing matchplay, so the worst that can happen is a lost hole to your opponent.
here are some pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole9diagram.jpg)
from the west tee:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole9a.jpg)
from the south tee:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole9b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole9c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole9e.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole9f.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole9d.jpg)
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I had the opportunity to play in the invitational this year (member/guest) where the flight winners played off on this alternate shot hole from different tees to different hole locations to come up with the overall championship team.
Very interesting to watch groups of players from 2 20's to a pair of brothers that were scratch at worst. The brothers won it but almost got knocked out with a birdie when there were 4 groups and 2 of the other three had net hole in ones and the third just missed their putt for a net one -- that was to a pin on the left lobe from the south tees. In the final two I think the pin was on the middle shelf and the brothers were long right in the short grass and they hit a flop shot Phil would have been excited about to about 3 feet for the win -- one of the best shots I've seen when there weren't ropes.
No matter where the pin is, a play to the left edge of the green is often times the best play. Yes, this can leave a very difficult two-putt, but you can pretty mush assure yourself of no worse than bogey unless you get overly aggressive with your birdie putt.
I agree with Jimmy -- that front/left side is the only place I aim after a few plays aiming at the flag. Putting from there to the right/front is very doable. I assume this green draws some inspiration from the boomerang green at Crystal Downs.
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I have not weighed in previously on other holes at Kingsley but put me down as a big time fan of the hole.
It's a classic tale of KNOWING to the yard how far you must flight your ball. No doubt wind conditions influence matters but I don't believe the hole to be unfair -- it's tough but as on any par-3 the question is does the hole provide for a return with a first rate effort. My conclusion ... is that it does.
If you are hitting a green with a very short iron -- I remember hitting it with a PW -- there's no reason why such a shot should not be fundamentally challenged to the max. I salute Jonathan's excellent analysis -- anything deep there is deadsville save for the lucky chip that hits the stick and goes cold dead.
When I think of Kingsley I immediately always draw the connection between the brilliant starting hole and the hole that brings to a close the outer half. I can't think of two better holes among recent new designs that offer that much fun, thinking and frustration for failure to execute.
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We'll all be moving on to the 10th hole and the rest of the back side at Kingsley soon (this has been a great travelogue), and so as someone who offered some of the severest criticism of Hole 9, I'd just like to say that the defenders of the hole have made a good case, and this has been a good discussion. I think it is nice, that when so many of us who have been to the site and have played the hole under a variety of conditions, that we can have such a fruitful discussion. For me, it shows how precise and demanding is the job that people like Mr. DeVries undertake.
For those unfamiliar with Kingsley, Hole 9 is, in the view of many, the most controversial and severest of all the holes. The back nine is a terrific treat, with some of my favorite holes on the course, and the focus of a little additional recent work which should also make for interesting discussion.
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Chuck,
9 is certainly controversial, but I'm also looking forward to the discussion on another hole that stretches the bounds of convention and acceptability, and I'm thinking specifically about #15 and that little perched green.
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I have not weighed in previously on other holes at Kingsley but put me down as a big time fan of the hole.
Matt, I'm curious why you have stayed quite on the rest of the course analysis seeing that you've played the course? You don't strike me as someone who keeps their opinions to themselves ;)
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Chuck,
Your response in reply #312 is a keeper. If anyone should have required reading before being allowed full access to posting on this site, it should be what you wrote there.
Thanks,
Joe
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Chuck,
9 is certainly controversial, but I'm also looking forward to the discussion on another hole that stretches the bounds of convention and acceptability, and I'm thinking specifically about #15 and that little perched green.
No problems with that hole, Mike. I made par there. :D
In all seriousness, my impression of Kingsley is that the front nine is definitive of its own style; it has a wonderful quality in which every hole relates to all the other front-side holes, and carefully crafted to the land, and isn't very referential to most other courses that I know of.
The back nine, in contrast, seems more varied, it somehow makes you think of other courses, and perhaps isn't as "cohesive" as the front. But it's an awful lot of fun.
As for 15; remember the guys I referred to, playing behind me, laughing as I carded my nine on 9? Well, the best player among them made an eight on 15 in much the same way, as I watched...
(We'll catch up on this together when we get to 15 on the tour...)
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The 9th looks like one of those ultra crazy do or don't die holes. I gotta get up to this joint as the course looks like it really, really rides the edge of playability and I haven't heard much talk about wind! Jeepers, whats the back 9 have in store for us?
Ciao
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Sean,
In no way does the course ride the edge of playability, and yes, it can get very windy as well. The fairways are quite wide and the course is all about angles and using your imagination. There are very few approach shots that don't offer you numerous options as to how to play the shot. Anyone that enjoys and appreciates the ground game and thinking outside the box, will appreciate and enjoy the Kingsley Club.
I think what some people have a hard time accepting is that on certain holes in certain conditions, such as #9, a 50 foot birdie putt or a greenside bunker shot is the result of a well-played tee shot.
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Sean,
In no way does the course ride the edge of playability, and yes, it can get very windy as well. The fairways are quite wide and the course is all about angles and using your imagination. There are very few approach shots that don't offer you numerous options as to how to play the shot. Anyone that enjoys and appreciates the ground game and thinking outside the box, will appreciate and enjoy the Kingsley Club.
I think what some people have a hard time accepting is that on certain holes in certain conditions, such as #9, a 50 foot birdie putt or a greenside bunker shot is the result of a well-played tee shot.
Jimmy
I don't have a problem with gravity golf so long as there is space to use the ground. In fact, the option of gravity golf is the best sort of golf there is imo. However, there are some slopes in the pics which look near impossible to deal with if conditions are f&f and there is any wind. That said, if recoveries are on offer (meaning its near impossible to lose a ball that is force fed into the rough) then I don't have a problem with it. The one aspect which raises red flags is controversy and this is where my riding the edge of playability comment was meant to speak toward. There is nothing wrong with a bit of it, so long as controversy doesn't become one of the main talking points for a decent percentage of players. If it is, a load will not come back for a second taste (presumably to take up membership) and a second taster looks to be exactly the type of course Kingsley is. I have no idea how I would take the course, but there is certainly enough very cool stuff going on to make me want to visit some day, but I have seen and played many, many weird and funky courses whereas the average Michigan and dare I say US punter has not.
Ciao
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8) Sean, gravity golf.. a nice term, but perhaps a better term at KC would be tobaggan golf.. your ball can go for quite a ride
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As I sense a mid-round break, I figured it would be a good time to throw this course map in so that people can get a feel of the layout of the course (and the intimacy of the front nine).
Also, the trees between 10 and 18 have been removed, which really ties the two nines into one another.
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/Kingsleyrouting.jpg)
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Hi All -- sorry for the delay in getting to this, as there is family and business that has come first. Anyhow, here is some commentary, albeit a little late. . .
Hole #7
The thing about the seventh is the change in the view of the golf course and feeling with each shot on the hole. From the back tee, you get a view of part of every hole on the front nine and your last look at the “South 40.” Then you focus on the drive and get a view of the 7th, 8th, and some of the 9th in the distance. It certainly looks longer than 545 yards, but is just the continuation of holes beyond the 7th.
The drive is restricted visually but has quite a bit more room to the left than appears from the tee. The big hitter is restricted by the pine trees in the distance – this presents a very distinct choice for them: do you try to take a driver at the right edge of the rough line and use the hill to kick the ball past the trees for a go at the green in two (but blind) from about 220-230 yards, play as tight to the trees as possible for a second of 250-270 yards to the green, or play very safe short of the trees without a chance at getting home in two? The tough part is deciding how to play the hole before hitting the drive and I think that is the detraction for some players, but it is good course management that wins the hole in the end.
I like the extreme openness of the tee shot from on high, where much of the front nine is visible, and its contrast with the second shot, where the golfer is secluded in a bowl below the rest of the front and with a blind shot (although there is much information to know where to hit your second, once you have played the course). The flow of the golf course is pertinent and takes a different turn here, but one that is natural in the return to the clubhouse and finish of the outward nine.
The second shot represents more choices: go for the green, lay up to the plateau 100-130 yards from the green, or play into the bowl that would be 75-45 yards from the green. The choice to go for the green is really only a reality for the biggest hitters. I think the plateau represents the best chance at a controlled wedge or short iron into the pin location of the day but some prefer to be closer in the bowl but with less visibility to the green surface.
The putting green has three or four different zones, depending on how you look at it: the left bowl at the lowest elevation, the right side which bends around into the back center right at a medium elevation, and the back left pin at the highest elevation. Each pin presents a different angle of attack versus safe play option and that is why I prefer the approach from the plateau for my third shot, but that is just my preference.
On a personal note, this green is the first time I four-jacked one of my own creations! In the inaugural club championship, I hit my approach to the left bowl on the green, but the pin was on the back left, well above my position. I didn’t hit my first putt hard enough and it came back to my feet. The next one I got up on the plateau but I two-putted from there for the four-jack – the guys still remind me of it to this day – such is life!!!!
Mike
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Another delayed post . . .
Hole #8 – Spoiler
The 8th is a great short four and has multiple options, each of which have varying degrees of accuracy required, either for the shot at hand or the next one. The drive has been talked about by others, with the safe left side open from the tee but with the large bunker to contend with on the approach. This side is good for pins in the middle and back of the green and for those who are confident with their club distance, as the shot has to clear the edge of the bunker to be safe. A drive over the “3 Amigos” leaves a more open approach but accuracy is still required to get it close to the hole. Driver is not required on this short four and definitely a risk, even for regular hitters, as the central bunker starts 260 yards from the tee (remember there is quite a bit of run on the turf here) and sprawls for 30-40 yards past that point – control is the better option here.
The green complex is open but very demanding on the approach. If you find the putting surface, you have a chance at par or birdie. If you find the correct plateau, middle or back, you have a good chance at birdie. I especially like the false side on the right that complicates recovery shots from right of the green, with options to putt, pitch, flop, run-up, etc. the ball to the hole, depending on the golfer’s tendencies.
The name “Spoiler” comes from the hole’s ability to spoil your round with a high number and from a personal story when the owner came over the 3 Amigos’ ridge in construction, along a path strewn with stumps and debris, and the front spoiler piece on his Suburban caught a small, yet still intact, stump and was ripped off the frame. I took half of the broken plastic and plunged it in the green site for a reference point and sight-line visualization in the dirt – it worked great and the name stuck!
Mike
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8 was the most boring hole on the course for me, I had the same approach shot into the green all 7 times, from the Arata memorial tree grove on the left side directly across from the fairway bunker...... ;D
Mark,
Excellent -- another name for something on the Spoiler! What if I cut some of those trees down? Are we fined due to the limited supply of "Arata memorial aspens" that are available? ;D
Cheers,
Mike
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8) On a hole, one plays prudently and scores well.. time and time again.. one plays aggresively, has more fun/different challenges and pays many different prices en route to the next tee.. same hole. Some say great.
Is it really the reward or simply the fact that it keeps enticing one to try differrent approaches because it is just a relative pause in the flow of the course routing. Play it enough times and you certainly learn all the consequences. How do folks play it in competition during match play and stroke play.. i'd assume very differently.
No knock, just considering the alternatives.. and how scared do club members get on many views/backgrounds here.. respect is one thing, been there done that repetition certainly lowers player anxiety.. except perhaps for the 9th, where experience is perhaps more like a Greek Tragedy
Steve,
Some excellent thoughts and I think great is the answer. Since you have only played it once and your straightforward par seemed uneventful, I can understand your feeling. But isn't that very similar to many first-time plays on a similar short four with options -- players aren't worried about the length and relax, not knowing what might really be out there to mess them up? After seeing some of the danger, the next play (and subsequent plays) may lead to some anxiety, either from a former play by yourself or a playing companion, on the next go-around, thus tightening the "simple" wedge shot and leaving you in a very awkward position. This is particularly prevalent at the Downs, where players look at all the short fours, 6500 from the back, and then go out and get in an unplayable position from not knowing where to miss reasonably.
Mike
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I'd have liked to have seen the 9th with different pin placements. As much as any short hole I've played the pin there seems to make a HUGE difference. I have a hard believing any of them are easy, however.
Andy,
Why is it a HUGE difference when you can putt from any portion of the green to any other part fairly easily? I think it is about getting the tee shot on the green or to where you are comfortable with your recovery.
Mike
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Hole #7
I like the extreme openness of the tee shot from on high, where much of the front nine is visible, and its contrast with the second shot, where the golfer is secluded in a bowl below the rest of the front and with a blind shot (although there is much information to know where to hit your second, once you have played the course). The flow of the golf course is pertinent and takes a different turn here, but one that is natural in the return to the clubhouse and finish of the outward nine.
Thanks for posting this thought. Were you trying to accomplish this from the start with the hole layout?
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Hole #7
I like the extreme openness of the tee shot from on high, where much of the front nine is visible, and its contrast with the second shot, where the golfer is secluded in a bowl below the rest of the front and with a blind shot (although there is much information to know where to hit your second, once you have played the course). The flow of the golf course is pertinent and takes a different turn here, but one that is natural in the return to the clubhouse and finish of the outward nine.
Thanks for posting this thought. Were you trying to accomplish this from the start with the hole layout?
John,
Yes, the transition from the high South 40 back to the start had to have an elevated tee shot with a big view and this was the natural transition, as the other way off the plateau was too long and had to deal with the wetland in the middle of the property, and I wanted to stay away from that for ecological reasons and there was a lack of width for much of that corner of the property. There was also a great high point where the back tee rests, but with a ridge across the area where the forward tee no rests -- this needed to be cut to provide for a visual down to the 7th fairway and beyond and is about 25% of the dirtwork on the property. What was nice about the big, open view up top was countered with the enclosed view below and I like the contrast of them right after each other to create a little change in the flow of the course -- it is definitely different and really worked out well and in conjunction with the 2 big sinkholes on the left and last one in the approach. It provided for a nice change of pace and a different type of par 5 than the 1st, 14th, or 17th (probably the most similar, just because of the big downhill in the middle of the hole, but originally very tight and enclosed by trees).
Mike
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Hole #7
I like the extreme openness of the tee shot from on high, where much of the front nine is visible, and its contrast with the second shot, where the golfer is secluded in a bowl below the rest of the front and with a blind shot (although there is much information to know where to hit your second, once you have played the course). The flow of the golf course is pertinent and takes a different turn here, but one that is natural in the return to the clubhouse and finish of the outward nine.
Thanks for posting this thought. Were you trying to accomplish this from the start with the hole layout?
John,
Yes, the transition from the high South 40 back to the start had to have an elevated tee shot with a big view and this was the natural transition, as the other way off the plateau was too long and had to deal with the wetland in the middle of the property, and I wanted to stay away from that for ecological reasons and there was a lack of width for much of that corner of the property. There was also a great high point where the back tee rests, but with a ridge across the area where the forward tee no rests -- this needed to be cut to provide for a visual down to the 7th fairway and beyond and is about 25% of the dirtwork on the property. What was nice about the big, open view up top was countered with the enclosed view below and I like the contrast of them right after each other to create a little change in the flow of the course -- it is definitely different and really worked out well and in conjunction with the 2 big sinkholes on the left and last one in the approach. It provided for a nice change of pace and a different type of par 5 than the 1st, 14th, or 17th (probably the most similar, just because of the big downhill in the middle of the hole, but originally very tight and enclosed by trees).
Mike
You told us onsite that the 1st accounted for about 50% of the dirt work. Now you've thrown in another 25% on the 7th. Either you moved a BUNCH on the 1st and the 7th or you haven't left yourself much dirt moving to account for the other 16 holes! :)
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You told us onsite that the 1st accounted for about 50% of the dirt work. Now you've thrown in another 25% on the 7th. Either you moved a BUNCH on the 1st and the 7th or you haven't left yourself much dirt moving to account for the other 16 holes! :)
Tim,
Correct. Not much dirt was moved on the site period -- 20,000 yards on the golf course + robbing 10,000 yards from another area on the property for green and tee mix, total. I am not counting shaping a green or tee or cutting a bunker by pushing the dirt around in that localized area, so you could count more dirt for that, but that is minimal, as the soil structure was left intact and prepped for seeding -- we didn't strip topsoil, shape everything, and move the dirt back -- why mess up great material and Mother Nature's great handiwork?
Mike
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Hole #9
Well, what to say after all that? I apologize to Chuck and all those that really dislike the hole and appreciate your candor in your explanations as to why – that helps me understand better and improves my abilities. Thanks for all the responses, thoughts, and suggestions! :)
I think we need to clarify a couple things: the hole plays 162 yards max (142 from the regular tee) from the south tees and about 134 max (128 from the regular tee) from the west tees. There are other shorter tees down to about 100 and 75 from the west and about 85 from the “top of the mountain tee” on the south. The predominant wind is from the SW 60-70% of the time, helping the longer shot from the south tees (of course, the other “general” direction is from the N-NW, thus making it play longer, but with the ability to hang the ball up in the air more). The hole DOES NOT play 170-180 yards from any tee – only a fierce, cold north wind would add enough additional yardage to make it play that long.
The mow line of the regular rough cut around the greens was changed two years ago on both the 2nd and 9th holes to reduce the tendency of a ball to run so far away from the green surface on a short miss and to prevent too many balls from finding the same area and leading to “divot-filled areas with white paint for GUR” most of the time – the ball is meant to be played down all the time – it’s GAWF, isn’t it?!? This change in the mow pattern has been well-received and reduced much of the crazy stuff that was described by some. It doesn’t take away from the demands of the tee shot and keeps the intention of the hole but does allow for fair recoveries with a number of options.
Is some of the controversy based on stroke play versus medal play and our tendency to feel we need to finish every hole and post a score? If so, what is the purpose of Equitable Stroke Control for handicapping? About 5 years ago, I had a family outing (3 foursomes) with a wide range of golfing ability – myself and a couple others were 10-12 handicaps at the time and the best players in the group. My foursome had 2 of those players, a 16-18, and a generous 24 (athletic, but not a regular golfer). We played from 134 on the west tees to a far right lobed pin on the peninsula – the only one to hit and hold the green (on the right part of the green, also :o ) was the 24, while 2 of us (don’t remember who) hit the green but didn’t hold it. The 24 definitely didn’t have spin or ball flight control, yet made a par. I still find it interesting that many of the biggest detractors are the best players, when they have the most skill and opportunity to make the tee shot as well as the best recovery play.
In my opinion, the south tees offer the best orientation in the course layout composition. It is the only par 3 that plays S-to-N (unless you count hitting from the circle drive or 10th tee to the pitching green!) and the distance is different than the other holes when you play the 2nd as a 138 yard hole. I like the W orientation also and frequently will have first-timers play a ball from the 106 yard tee just behind the 8th green before going over to the S tees and playing another shot there – then you can play a better ball, yeah?!?
The 9th is definitely the most controversial hole and members are often vehemently for or against changing it, but that hasn’t happened yet. The setting and shots for the “playoffs” of the Invitational tournament never fails to satisfy and excite everyone playing or spectating.
If I was asked to alter the hole by Ed, I would keep the integrity of the putting surface and tee shot but lay back the slope behind the green to make it less severe. In order to do that, though, would require moving a lot of dirt and finding a balance with how it would tie into the clubhouse complex, parking lot, and other facilities and needs of the club. The amount of dirt needed to move in the original construction was certainly one of the reasons we didn’t do it the first time, as the need to move all the dirt around would require not just removal but the tying in of an area much larger than the main area of contention next to the green. We’ll see what the future holds!
Thanks,
Mike
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I still find it interesting that many of the biggest detractors are the best players, when they have the most skill and opportunity to make the tee shot as well as the best recovery play.
You mentioned this about #15 as well, but more on that later. It seems to have something to do with the "expectation" of what a strong player is supposed to be able to accomplish. On number #15 the expectation is that if it is a long par four the green should be sizeable enough that a skilled player is going to have a reasonable shot to hit it in two. Ironic, since the strong golfer is most likely to be equipped with the skills to routinely get the ball up and down for four around that green. I guess a traditional par is an entitlement!
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I guess a traditional par is an entitlement!
Very well stated -- can I steal that? ;D
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Having not seen Kingsley, I have been carefully following this thread awaiting the commentary on the ninth hole. It seems to fall into the great unused category of love/hate golf holes. The only other hole I can think of that strongly divides opinions is #14 at Bandon Trails. I am interested to see if those who like the 14th at BT also have a favorable opinion of the 9th at Kingsley.
Tim,
As a fellow lefty, do you find the west tee less intimidating to the eye? The south tee looks menacing, with significantly less area to land an approach.
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Tim,
As a fellow lefty, do you find the west tee less intimidating to the eye? The south tee looks menacing, with significantly less area to land an approach.
I think the view from the south tee would look more menacing to most people, regardless of handedness. From the south, you can clearly see death by both failing to strike a solid shot that makes the carry and also by missing long and right. From the west tee, the initial appearance is that only a really long shot would truly be terrible.
For a lefty that fades the ball, both tees ought to set up pretty well in THEORY. From the south tee, short and left with the bunkers is the preferred miss, and long and left would likely find the west wing of the green. From the west tee, as I mentioned above left doesn't LOOK extremely fierce and that's actually where I was trying to miss from that tee.
The thing about THEORY is that it doesn't work well on this hole. It's all about execution and the hole can be equally difficult from both tees.
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Tim,
As a fellow lefty, do you find the west tee less intimidating to the eye? The south tee looks menacing, with significantly less area to land an approach.
From the west tee, as I mentioned above left doesn't LOOK extremely fierce and that's actually where I was trying to miss from that tee.
Does the slope on the left side of the green help to feed the ball in any way, or is it too small of an area to hit consistently?
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Wyatt,
You don't want to get too far left on the green as that puts you farther up the slope which allows the ball to gather speed down to the right. In some cases the ball will roll into the bunkers.
To answer your other question, I like #9 at TKC and #14 at BT.
The one possible change that Mike brings up on #9 is the one I would advocate. I wouldn't change the green itself, just soften the back. Softening the back will not really make recovering much easier, but I think it would eliminate the really big numbers. Going long off the south tee is still going to make par very tough.
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8 was the most boring hole on the course for me, I had the same approach shot into the green all 7 times, from the Arata memorial tree grove on the left side directly across from the fairway bunker...... ;D
Mark,
Excellent -- another name for something on the Spoiler! What if I cut some of those trees down? Are we fined due to the limited supply of "Arata memorial aspens" that are available? ;D
Cheers,
Mike
If you cut down all the arata memorial tree groves on golf courses, the Sierra club would be after you big time! ;D Besides, the tree grove on 8 is only one of the many memorials on your course, there are the trees on 12 on the left, I think you got rid of the pesky pole tree on 17 for me, so that was nice.....
The problem isnt with your golf course, which I love dearly, it is with my pathetic lack of ability to play it......
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The ninth is certainly controversial, and I've definitely felt it has been undermining my efforts since my first round. But then again, so have many of these holes ;D Personally, I like the hole. It's short(ish), daunting, exhilirating and UNFAIR!! (j/k Mike D.) It's a par 3 that really demands a good smart shot, and the potential danger can really spoil a solid front nine, and has in my experience several times. At the same time, I've pulled it off many times too, and the reward of a solid 3, when you can feel the pressure standing on the tee, is awesome.
In my opinion it's better to miss short(or wide right) here, at least generally speaking. A miss long (or left) will almost always end up short of the green on the second shot. Generally a miss short(right) that doesn't find the bunker will give you a reasonable chance at a 4 and a likely worst case scenario 5.
On a round this summer, a good friend of mine stood on the ninth tee pretty demoralized. His game was in shambles, but he was fighting. He was maybe a bit overwhelmed by the course, which he had never before laid eyes on, but his struggles were the result of a crooked wedge and a fiercely aggressive putting stroke. I luckily found the front edge of the right half of the green, below the hole, giant grin and probably a laugh that it hung on the brink of no return. We had another guy in the front right bunker, a likely death given his sand game. Smitty, who I mentioned before played last, and struck a crisp little 7 iron, fading right at the stick. Landed bout 5 feet past the holes, hung of the back collar for a second and crept back. Nobody said a word, It caught more hole than the 5 footer for par I made and settled luckily no more than two feet past the hole. Made his birdie (worth 4 pts.) and made a decent charge on the back only to be shut down by yours truly. We really did think he was going to make a 1 on his first try, it was that close. I think he made a 6 in the afternoon.
I like 9 as i said before and I think it's an appropriate and for lack of a better word, COOL finish to the front nine.
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David,
You must have one heck of a short game if you think bailing out right is a good idea on #9. We named that area the Devil's Cauldron the first time we played there many years ago.
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Again, since I complained about 9, and since Mike offered an admirable explanation, I think it only fair to say that his notion of a possible change is reasonable, and yet I'd be as unenthusiastic about the change as he is.
Mike, how about these two ideas?
1. Make the back-right portion of the green less severe. A little bigger, a little less slope. That change would not do much to make the tee shot (which is dramatic, and fun) easier, but it would address the kind of disaster I encountered and which others seem to have seen as well.
2. Also, expand the fringe-collar area on the right so that balls do not so easily careen off the edge of that green. Just enough of an area so that little shots around the green do not end up 12 or 15 yards down the hill.
Again, it is worth noting how much of your design of this hole has been pretty much universally admired; the hole has lots of drama, it is set well into the land and fits beautifully with the rest of the course. The front bunkering is good, and it is a green with lots of interest.
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I think one of the problems with #9 is that people try too hard to make par there after a less than desirable tee shot. Sometimes you just can't make par from where you are, and the interesting thing is that this seems to happen more on great courses than not. On #9 at Kingsley you have to figure out where you can reasonably get to.
IMO the front nine at Kingsley is as good as anything I've ever played. It is one of my favorite courses.
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Changing nine green seems like a radical solution to a problem only perceived by those who fail at the task. Perhaps adding a shorter teeing ground from the south approach would work for those who lack the skills on that particular day. It might be cool since it would likely be below, at grade, making it an uphill shot. But, if it's with a wedge or 9 iron, excuses for missing will certainly be entertaining to hear.
I will qualify that suggestion because I never got to see the look, from the west tees, or, did I get to sense how the route to the W. tees works from 8 green. I did check them out from the clubhouse side, up behind the green.
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I'd have liked to have seen the 9th with different pin placements. As much as any short hole I've played the pin there seems to make a HUGE difference. I have a hard believing any of them are easy, however.
Andy,
Why is it a HUGE difference when you can putt from any portion of the green to any other part fairly easily? I think it is about getting the tee shot on the green or to where you are comfortable with your recovery.
Mike
I wrote that thinking that the strategy of the hole would change a lot depending on where the pin is located--its not a hole where one just aims at the middle of the green and hopes to two-putt after all (or is it!). I would have guessed just from playing that the area "where you are comfortable with your recovery" would change a lot depending on the pin.
After seeing other comments, perhaps one should always aim to be short (in the bunker area) and pitch up the hill and try to make a four. I was in the bunkers both times and made a 3 and 4 without much duress, but I would think the hole to a back/right pin (from the south tee) would have lent to a different approach and/or a more difficult bunker shot.
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Mike, how about these two ideas?
1. Make the back-right portion of the green less severe. A little bigger, a little less slope. That change would not do much to make the tee shot (which is dramatic, and fun) easier, but it would address the kind of disaster I encountered and which others seem to have seen as well.
2. Also, expand the fringe-collar area on the right so that balls do not so easily careen off the edge of that green. Just enough of an area so that little shots around the green do not end up 12 or 15 yards down the hill.
Chuck,
Thanks for the positive thoughts.
Regarding:
1) changing the size of any portion of the green is not as simple as you might think. To expand off to the right (which drops off fairly severely) would require lots of fill and additional area to tie in. To expand into the hill would involve laying back the hill, which gets into more areas of disturbance to tie that into. Not easy to explain in print and easier in the field -- maybe incentive to have a discussion about it at the GCA Get-together!
2) We changed the mow line of the fringe and short rough a couple years ago and it has helped in that capacity -- there is only about 6-12 feet of fairway collar around the right side now, so depending on the speed of the ball coming off, it will travel shortly into the rough or further if hit from the tee shot -- this is quite a bit more consistent with the fraction of the error versus all balls gathering in one general area and has been very well received.
Mike
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Ed,
Sorry I wasn't more specific, I meant depending on the tee location for that given day. A miss short from the South Tee would be equivalent to a miss right from the West Tee. Many apologies, and the short game is as rocky as the rest of the game.
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I'd have liked to have seen the 9th with different pin placements. As much as any short hole I've played the pin there seems to make a HUGE difference. I have a hard believing any of them are easy, however.
Andy,
Why is it a HUGE difference when you can putt from any portion of the green to any other part fairly easily? I think it is about getting the tee shot on the green or to where you are comfortable with your recovery.
Mike
I wrote that thinking that the strategy of the hole would change a lot depending on where the pin is located--its not a hole where one just aims at the middle of the green and hopes to two-putt after all (or is it!). I would have guessed just from playing that the area "where you are comfortable with your recovery" would change a lot depending on the pin.
After seeing other comments, perhaps one should always aim to be short (in the bunker area) and pitch up the hill and try to make a four. I was in the bunkers both times and made a 3 and 4 without much duress, but I would think the hole to a back/right pin (from the south tee) would have lent to a different approach and/or a more difficult bunker shot.
Andy,
I think the area on the inside of the elbow, whether in a bunker or the rough, is the preferred place to miss the tee shot -- you always have an uphill shot into the bank and green, thus allowing you to recover much easier by using the slope to stop or move your ball where you want it to go.
I guess my point about the HUGE difference is that it isn't, unless you are expecting to be really close and make a birdie, which is certainly very doable if you are on the right portion of the green. Maybe that is one of the things that makes this a good hole -- it is short enough that you should have the control to get it on the green and have a go at it, but when you don't and make a mess of it, it really throws off your game for quite a while after that?
Mike
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Mike , This was my favorite hole on the front 9. We played the West tees at 130 yds and it was a 9 or a wedge for the five of us-oops,yes we moved along quickly. I thought this was one of the scariest , but manageable shots if you hit the shot right. It is penal and 4 is a good # if you miss the green. Just a great short par 3. One of my top 10 short par3's. Jack
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Wyatt,
You don't want to get too far left on the green as that puts you farther up the slope which allows the ball to gather speed down to the right. In some cases the ball will roll into the bunkers.
Ed,
Thanks for painting a picture for me. Another question if you don't mind, From the West tee, is there any chance of firing directly at a right hole location? If not, what do you propose (sorry, that was two questions)?
Thanks
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Wyatt,
I don't think I have played the hole from the west tee to that pin. I would imagine it is doable since you have a short iron in hand from that tee. I don't get a lot of spin on the ball, so I might have trouble holding that part of the green since it is shallow from that tee angle. I can't picture exactly how wide it is, but I think O would fire at the pin since my usually miss is going to end up left of the hole and I feel pretty good about distance control.
Missing short left, on the green, from the west tee would likely end up in a 3 putt so you may as well go for. The west end of the green is a punchbowl. It is the upper plateau between the wings that the hardest to get at from the tee I would think.
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Ed,
After rereading the posts regarding the west tee, the misses are left, short left, or short straight in the
bunker(s). Given the same right hole location, which provides the best opportunity for a three? Is an up-and-down from the bunker easier than trying to two putt from the left side (or plateau you mentioned)?
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Going at a right hole location from the west tee is doable but a very risky play, especially when downwind. When the hole is downwind from the west tee, the smart play is to the left front side of the green. Sure, it's still a difficult two-putt....but you are eliminating the big number unless you do something foolish on the green. Playing into the front bunker is not a bad play either when the pin is right.
There is nothing wrong with not being able to fire at some flags under certain conditions. This does in no way make a hole "unfair" and in need of "modification". It makes you play with discipline and restraint.
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Tim,
Is it time for #10 now? ;D While hole 9 could probably be its own thread, I'm ready to see the back side loop.
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Tim,
Is it time for #10 now? ;D While hole 9 could probably be its own thread, I'm ready to see the back side loop.
It's coming. If someone could get my children to go to bed on time once in a while, then it might come quicker!
I'm going to have #10 posted before the weekend, possibly later this evening.
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#10 is a par four
446 from the gold tee
393 from the blue tee
Welcome to the back nine. While the front nine has much more continuity in the same sense that exists at the front nine at Crystal Downs, I'm pretty sure I find the back nine more appealing than the front nine in total.
The tenth kicks off the back with a stern test for the mid-to-high handicapper - a long par 4 that plays slightly uphill. Now I'm going to get some grief for saying this, but I think this is the least interesting and least memorable hole on the course for me (remember least is a relative term, and this is just a personal opinion!) For me, the most important purpose it served was to eat up some land in order to get me to perhaps the best stretch of holes on the golf course (that being the rest of the back nine!!)
The tee shot is intimidating from the back tees. The back tee sits adjacent to the practice area, across a small road from the rest of the 10th hole. There is plenty of room in the landing area, and the carry isn't unreasonable, but combined with a tee that plays uphill the less than confident golfer may find that it looks like a "narrower" chute than was faced on some of the front nine holes. The blue tee provides a better view of the fairway since it is elevated and it is much easier on the psyche, though ironically it may lead to a tighter landing area since the bunkers are more in play for the moderate hitter.
There is plenty of bunkering, both along the sides of the fairway as well as around the green. The approach plays slightly uphill to a sufficiently sized green (much of which is obscured from view on the approach) with a good bit of movement. This hole, while it won't yield many birdies to the average player, doesn't feel like it would play host to as many disasters as some of the holes on the front nine (or many of those to follow.) In general, it felt like a tough test, but not as much of a match play thrill as many of the other holes on the property.
Since I've revealed my bias, I'm going to shut up and allow others to do this hole justice.
From the back tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/10Tee2.jpg)
From the net tee forward
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king10tee.jpg)
Another view from that tee, but with a little better look at the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/10Tee.jpg)
A shot from the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king10fwy.jpg)
A look at the approach to the green from the right side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/10Approach.jpg)
A look at the green from behind the hole
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/10Green.jpg)
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Ed,
After rereading the posts regarding the west tee, the misses are left, short left, or short straight in the
bunker(s). Given the same right hole location, which provides the best opportunity for a three? Is an up-and-down from the bunker easier than trying to two putt from the left side (or plateau you mentioned)?
Wyatt,
Missing left is not an option from the west tee. If I was playing conservatively from the west tee I would try to end up short on the green in the bowl. I think that would be the best option for a 3. One would have to have a pro level sand game to have a better chance of making 3 from the bunkers. From the west tee if the pin is back right I think the only two options are short on the green or go for the pin.
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Is that an alternate hole in the 1st pic? Perhaps a 19th hole?
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Is that an alternate hole in the 1st pic? Perhaps a 19th hole?
A chipping green in the practice area.....but hey, anything's possible!
Joe
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I like #10 but probably not for the reasons the architect would appreciate. I dont feel that it is an easy hole by any means, but it does provide for some relief, albeit short, after 9 and before heading to the rest of the back nine.
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I like #10 but probably not for the reasons the architect would appreciate. I dont feel that it is an easy hole by any means, but it does provide for some relief, albeit short, after 9 and before heading to the rest of the back nine.
I thought the same thing.
Weren't there originally a lot of trees between the 10th & 18th fairways? When were those removed?
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I'm curious about the shape of the three circular bunkers on the left. Why were they made circular?
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I like #10 but probably not for the reasons the architect would appreciate. I dont feel that it is an easy hole by any means, but it does provide for some relief, albeit short, after 9 and before heading to the rest of the back nine.
I thought the same thing.
Weren't there originally a lot of trees between the 10th & 18th fairways? When were those removed?
I know a lot of trees were removed to the right of the 18th fairway. I think Kingsley's website show some older pictures with these tress in place.
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I like #10 but probably not for the reasons the architect would appreciate. I dont feel that it is an easy hole by any means, but it does provide for some relief, albeit short, after 9 and before heading to the rest of the back nine.
I thought the same thing.
Weren't there originally a lot of trees between the 10th & 18th fairways? When were those removed?
Yes, there originally was pretty thick forest between 10 & 18 (you can reference the course map I posted earlier). This is a guess, but I think they were removed sometime around 2005-2006?
I also believe they added some bunkers on the right side of both 10 & 18 after the trees were cleared.
Mike would know the specifics...
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#10 looks much better without the trees that used to seperate it from #18. It used to be such a wrenching change from the front nine that the first time there I almost did a double-take thinking maybe I wasn't on the course anymore.
One thing I don't like about this hole is the way the hole feels flanked by containment mounding, which fortunately in this case is natural I believe. It has a fantastic green though.
It just occured to me that this transition between nines is not unlike Crystal Downs. The front nine has been grinding you up most likely but is fantastic golf, both have a tough par 3 #9, then #10 is a breather hole that doesn't have a lot going on until you get to the green. Fortunately the similarity ends there as #11 at KC is WAY easier than #11 at CD.
Mike has great movement on #10 green which I think is one of his gifts as an architect, the way the movement of the green flows so well on many of his holes.
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8) From "the next tee forward" i thought this was a solid hole and I appreciated seeing the trees framing things, a comfort thing that plays out much more on the back nine. Also, armed with "front 9" type appreciation for how balls could move out there.. #10 offered something more visibly concave or contained..
After sustenance at the trailer.. (have they built a formal clubhouse there?)
one can just hit it and find it right or play that left side and see where it ends up.. i seem to remember my power fade working ok there..
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Elegant.
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IMO #10 is definitely one of the less severe/dramatic holes on the course; and on top of that isn't the most photogenic either. But I think there is much more to the hole then the pics show. Different sides of the fairway definitely pose different challenges tee to green. It is also a difficult approach b/c the green is almost eye level, and it can be difficult to get a good feel and depth perception. The green is also much better (however subtle) than the pics show or you might think after one play...
I think the hole/transition from front to back works/looks MUCH better w/ out the trees between 10 & 18. It just ties everything together.
Also, notice the new bunkers on the right side of the fairway, after the trees were removed.
from the website:
Diagram (with trees)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole10diagram.jpg)
tee shot w/ trees
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole10a.jpg)
and without...
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole10e.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole10b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole10c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole10d.jpg)
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David - good thread idea, indeed.
Mike - excellent choice of words. I noticed at The Mines when I played it, and here in pictures, that with all those contours and dramatic features, the courses still seemed....elegant. And that's a word I've only used for a couple of Sean Arble's tier-two English courses and for Donald Steel's Redtail, all courses on much different (gentler) topography. I don't know how it's done, but I think it must have to do as much with great shaping as it does great routing.
Peter
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Peter,
I'm too tired to look it up, but someone important said something about Pine Valley like, "How does one tell where man ends and God begins?"
Do tie-ins between natural land flows and artificial features get much better than this?
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/10Approach.jpg)
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Mike - I just now stopped staring at that picture, when I realized that I'd been sitting here for three minutes, smiling beatifically. Time to shut it down for the night, huh...
The thing I like about Mike D's work is that even the naturalness seems unforced, if you know what I mean. It's as if everything just happens, with little fanfare.
I'm not explaining myself well (assuming there's anything to 'explain').
I hope you can make it up there.
Peter
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Peter,
I certainly hope I can, as well.
You know we'll have a good time then.
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I never saw the course before the trees along 17 and 10/18 were cut, but Im almost thinking I like the look a little better than without trees...
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I liked the way #10 suckers a thrill-seeking chump like be to bit off the dogleg even though there's barely any dogleg there in the first place and it's totally stupid...
That's probably worthy of its own thread...like that "Magician Reveals Magicians' Secrets" show on FOX...
...which is why I ask that nobody steal the thread idea until I can get to a computer instead of this little magic phone thingy...
This is a most enjoyable thread and I am sorry not to be able to make the get together this summer.
Dave
Which is exactly why knocking the trees out here is a great idea. A view of the green on a dogleg will sucker in loads of people to miss their drives on the short side.
Perhaps this is odd, but I am a bit surprised by the bunkering down the left of this hole. It looks out of scale with hummocks. Does anybody think these should be bigger bunkers or perhaps removed? They seem to be betwixt and between. I was also thinking more nasty looking bunkers down the left might encourage folks to pull a Schmidtie.
Ciao
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8) the new bunkers on the right side of the fairway should be far more problematic for most folks than, bigger badder ones on the left..
pulling a schmidtie.. i think a chapter in his biography could be "I Never Met a Sucker Pin I Didn't Like"
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This is always a tough driving hole for me. I find the approach to be quite challenging as well. I never take enough club, I know that the green is elevated, but I never trust it enough.
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Long hole. Even a 250 yard drive leaves to what is nearly another 200 yard shot because the hole is so much more up hill than you think. I always end up short but because of the way the course is maintained I find myself getting up and down with the flat stick (like many holes at KC) 10 to 20 yards short of the green. Green complex is difficult IMO, one of the more crazy ones on the course.
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Mike , This was my favorite hole on the front 9. We played the West tees at 130 yds and it was a 9 or a wedge for the five of us-oops,yes we moved along quickly. I thought this was one of the scariest , but manageable shots if you hit the shot right. It is penal and 4 is a good # if you miss the green. Just a great short par 3. One of my top 10 short par3's. Jack
Jack,
Hey, why not a gangsome? I love those early or late season groups with 6 or 7 filing down a fairway and lots of chatter going on -- no one is safe from verbal abuse for a flubbed shot, but it is always FUN! :)
Thanks for the vote of confidence on #9!
Mike
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Is that an alternate hole in the 1st pic? Perhaps a 19th hole?
Kalen,
The chipping green would be a great long 3 from the turnaround circle -- hitting into the slope and lots of movement for different shot options on the course -- somewhat severe in spots but intended to mimic some of the kickback situations you encounter in places on the course, so it is a fun green to mess around with. The crew also keeps it consistent with the on-course green conditioning, so it is very realistic.
Mike
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I never saw the course before the trees along 17 and 10/18 were cut, but Im almost thinking I like the look a little better than without trees...
I agree, and did not mind the stark contrast beteen the front nine and holes 10 and 18. For me, the difference is not significant.
I liked the naturally treed portions of the course, and unlike Ed Getka, I prefer the back nine.
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The 10th was originally a bunkerless hole with dense trees on the right between the 10th and 18th holes. The existing back tee was added a few years ago and there is a spot to add another tee (for 465+ yards) along the entrance drive if necessary in the future. The original back tee is the one at 393 and the regular tee was just in front of that on the same landform. I really liked the hole in the original state and it was definitely more subtle than the bolder holes on the front. The change in transition was magnified by making the turn to the back nine and this was ultimately one of the reasons for the changes I will discuss.
The right side of the fairway had agronomic issues for the fescue, due to the mass of forest to the south of the hole (between 10 and 18) and we thinned out the trees for a couple years to improve the turf quality, but it was still behind the open turf areas elsewhere on the course. Owner Ed Walker recommended adding bunkers to help with the transition from front to back and we added the 3 (circular) bunkers on the left, the large bunker about 50 yards short and right of the green (tucked into a couple of large beech trees on a small knoll), and the large bunker at the left approach – these were an immediate improvement to the transition from the open front to the back. But the turf issues continued and when we looked at thinning the trees some more, it would have been open, bare sticks and not appealing. So we looked at taking all the trees out and adding bunkers on the side of the ridge to both holes – this openness really improved the flow from front to back and solved the agronomic issues for the fescue. As to the circular nature of the bunkers on the left – there is a mainline on the left that affected their placement without changing a mainline routing and patching into big pipe (the pump station is in the range, so this is the main that feeds the back nine), but I think they have lost a little of their ruggedness since built and we should look into amending them a bit – thanks for the critique! The new back tee was added a couple years ago to give some teeth to the drive for the bigger hitters and it does change the way you look at the hole – I have always liked the look uphill between the 2 ridges into the valley fairway – and now the large rolling mound at the beginning of the fairway can really defeat a poor drive or propel an average to good drive and it has more effect than the upper tee, which gives one a freer feeling to just let one rip.
The hole is all natural between the ridgelines and presents different looks, depending on which tee you play from, and the concavity of the hole is actually quite a bit narrower than the other holes on the front that repel balls on parts of their generous, yet convex, fairways. The second shot is definitely uphill but gives you a glimpse of the right front of the green with the false middle that distinguishes the right plateau of the green and serves as a backstop for pins in the very front. The big roll in the left approach allows for a running shot to feed into the left middle bowl or front of the green. And a cautionary note, the last 20 feet in the back center falls away. Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).
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(have they built a formal clubhouse there?)
No, it is the same building, with a large covered deck on it and substantial plantings around it. The clubhouse issue has proponents that want a more formidable building and others that like it just fine as is, with gas-grill food, sandwiches, and various beverages.
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Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).
Amen to that comment! The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it.
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Perhaps this is odd, but I am a bit surprised by the bunkering down the left of this hole. It looks out of scale with hummocks. Does anybody think these should be bigger bunkers or perhaps removed? They seem to be betwixt and between. I was also thinking more nasty looking bunkers down the left might encourage folks to pull a Schmidtie.
Ciao
The 10th was originally a bunkerless hole with dense trees on the right between the 10th and 18th holes. The existing back tee was added a few years ago and there is a spot to add another tee (for 465+ yards) along the entrance drive if necessary in the future. The original back tee is the one at 393 and the regular tee was just in front of that on the same landform. I really liked the hole in the original state and it was definitely more subtle than the bolder holes on the front. The change in transition was magnified by making the turn to the back nine and this was ultimately one of the reasons for the changes I will discuss.
The right side of the fairway had agronomic issues for the fescue, due to the mass of forest to the south of the hole (between 10 and 18) and we thinned out the trees for a couple years to improve the turf quality, but it was still behind the open turf areas elsewhere on the course. Owner Ed Walker recommended adding bunkers to help with the transition from front to back and we added the 3 (circular) bunkers on the left, the large bunker about 50 yards short and right of the green (tucked into a couple of large beech trees on a small knoll), and the large bunker at the left approach – these were an immediate improvement to the transition from the open front to the back.
Mike
Thank you for the explanation. Why did you choose small round bunkers on this hole? Also, with the trees cleared, does there need to be that bunkering to help the transition?
Ciao
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A quick and interesting note on the 10th at CD. The first time I played there did the back and forth thing three times, X. Several plays have yielded quite the same results, but one late fall day 2 yrs. ago during a 36 session things really went my way.
1st go around, smashed a driver, had probably 60-80 yrds to a front right pin, NASTY. Hit a nice little half wedge left of pin, came to rest about a 2 feet from the hole for a bird.
2nd go around, topped a driver, had 230 or more, obv. uphill to that little bitch of a green. Hit a perfect choked up 3 wood, on the leftest line humanly possible, bounce short, and I lost it, couldn't see it. Having known the tendency's of this green, I figured It had about a 1 / 100 chance of holding the green. I've seen plenty of pretty nice shots, from 150 - 170 yards that refuse to hold the green. Anyways, when I arrived at the green I was happy to find my ball in a nearly identical spot and went on to make my second bird of the day. So all in all I hit driver / lob wedge driver / 3-wood for two birds that day. Later that night I did not hit the Mega-Millions Jackpot.
Sorry for the interruption, but I've been wanting to share this for a long time.
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Mike
Thank you for the explanation. Why did you choose small round bunkers on this hole? Also, with the trees cleared, does there need to be that bunkering to help the transition?
Ciao
As to the circular nature of the bunkers on the left – there is a mainline on the left that affected their placement without changing a mainline routing and patching into big pipe (the pump station is in the range, so this is the main that feeds the back nine), but I think they have lost a little of their ruggedness since built and we should look into amending them a bit – thanks for the critique!
Sean,
You needed to read a little further in my reply. One, the mainline affected where we could easily add something and we didn't want to chop up the big pipe. Two, limited time and equipment -- I only had a small backhoe to do the additions and x-time to do it, plus the more important bunkers up near the green. Circular/oval bunkers are not without precedence on the course, although not usually in such a large area -- I think the photos are not doing them justice to what they actually look like in the field and how they tie into the natural slopes.
Best,
Mike
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A quick and interesting note on the 10th at CD. The first time I played there did the back and forth thing three times, X. Several plays have yielded quite the same results, but one late fall day 2 yrs. ago during a 36 session things really went my way.
1st go around, smashed a driver, had probably 60-80 yrds to a front right pin, NASTY. Hit a nice little half wedge left of pin, came to rest about a 2 feet from the hole for a bird.
2nd go around, topped a driver, had 230 or more, obv. uphill to that little bitch of a green. Hit a perfect choked up 3 wood, on the leftest line humanly possible, bounce short, and I lost it, couldn't see it. Having known the tendency's of this green, I figured It had about a 1 / 100 chance of holding the green. I've seen plenty of pretty nice shots, from 150 - 170 yards that refuse to hold the green. Anyways, when I arrived at the green I was happy to find my ball in a nearly identical spot and went on to make my second bird of the day. So all in all I hit driver / lob wedge driver / 3-wood for two birds that day. Later that night I did not hit the Mega-Millions Jackpot.
Sorry for the interruption, but I've been wanting to share this for a long time.
You are quite the "Playa" -- that will be more strokes for me the next time we play! ;D
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Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).
Amen to that comment! The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it.
Tim,
That is until you got to the 11th....
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Mike,
With respect, I don't think so. ;D Notice I didn't mention an "overall" score...should be rolling into the Kingsley get together as a solid 10 index.
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Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).
Amen to that comment! The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it.
Mike,
You are quite right. Approach shots to #10 Kingsley won't roll back off the green into a front right bunker like at CD. :)
Tim,
You must have hit a good shot on #11 if you think #10 is the toughest green you've ever faced. ;D
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Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).
Amen to that comment! The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it.
Tim,
That is until you got to the 11th....
That is funny, I had the same thought and posted about it before I read your comment George.
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A quick and interesting note on the 10th at CD. The first time I played there did the back and forth thing three times, X. Several plays have yielded quite the same results, but one late fall day 2 yrs. ago during a 36 session things really went my way.
1st go around, smashed a driver, had probably 60-80 yrds to a front right pin, NASTY. Hit a nice little half wedge left of pin, came to rest about a 2 feet from the hole for a bird.
2nd go around, topped a driver, had 230 or more, obv. uphill to that little bitch of a green. Hit a perfect choked up 3 wood, on the leftest line humanly possible, bounce short, and I lost it, couldn't see it. Having known the tendency's of this green, I figured It had about a 1 / 100 chance of holding the green. I've seen plenty of pretty nice shots, from 150 - 170 yards that refuse to hold the green. Anyways, when I arrived at the green I was happy to find my ball in a nearly identical spot and went on to make my second bird of the day. So all in all I hit driver / lob wedge driver / 3-wood for two birds that day. Later that night I did not hit the Mega-Millions Jackpot.
Sorry for the interruption, but I've been wanting to share this for a long time.
Just goes to show that the front right pin is TOO EASY. ;D It is an interesting green that gets in your head as soon as you get to the top of the steps coming up from #9. It requires absolute respect. Some think it is unfair, but I am not on that list.
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Fair ?
In my experience that is one of the rarest four letter words I've heard to describle that little baby.
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Be happy that pin was front right, Dave, and not front left...
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Slee,
I see what your doing, and I DON'T like it !!! Always trying to drag us bald guys down.
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Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).
Amen to that comment! The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it.
The 10th is certainly one of the hardest greens anywhere you will ever see. My best story on that green, having played many a round there, is I went back a few years ago and played with Nev and the assistant superintendent and a member in a real blood match (they closed us out on the 13th hole). The pin was middle/frontish and all the way left. I somehow hit it to the left of the pin and it didn't really kick right like I thought. I was 1 foot off the green and only 6 feet or so from the pin, above the hole on the green. Turned to the Assist-Super and said "Don, how do I get this up and down". He turned to me and said, "Turn around and putt it to the back of the green and leave yourself a level 40 foot putt coming back." I refused to do that and obviously my next shot was that damn bunker shot in front when you roll off.
I do think that the green has gotten harder over time. I don't know who can confirm this but in the 15 years I've been playing there they have really softened the left side. There used to be longer grass there right up to the fringe (now it is mowed shorter) and I really think the green, because of mowing patterns, has expanded to the left a little. Don't know if there is a way to confirm that. It just seems to me that around the green it has changed a little.
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Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).
Amen to that comment! The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it.
The 10th is certainly one of the hardest greens anywhere you will ever see. My best story on that green, having played many a round there, is I went back a few years ago and played with Nev and the assistant superintendent and a member in a real blood match (they closed us out on the 13th hole). The pin was middle/frontish and all the way left. I somehow hit it to the left of the pin and it didn't really kick right like I thought. I was 1 foot off the green and only 6 feet or so from the pin, above the hole on the green. Turned to the Assist-Super and said "Don, how do I get this up and down". He turned to me and said, "Turn around and putt it to the back of the green and leave yourself a level 40 foot putt coming back." I refused to do that and obviously my next shot was that damn bunker shot in front when you roll off.
I do think that the green has gotten harder over time. I don't know who can confirm this but in the 15 years I've been playing there they have really softened the left side. There used to be longer grass there right up to the fringe (now it is mowed shorter) and I really think the green, because of mowing patterns, has expanded to the left a little. Don't know if there is a way to confirm that. It just seems to me that around the green it has changed a little.
Pretty similar to what we faced on the 10th. I was on the fringe above the hole and putted the ball 90 degrees away from the hole with all the force of a 2-inch tap-in. The ball rolled completely off the other side of the green! Only after the fact did I realize that I was supposed to tap the 2-incher in the complete opposite direction of the hole instead of 90 degrees away!
Ed - Re: #11 you are forgetting the other obvious option - that I picked up before I even got to the green to attempt its difficulty! Still, with the pins we faced and the putts I watched for two rounds we played I would have taken any putt on #11 over the repeated disasters we saw take place around the 10th. The location was the closest thing to impossible (other than something absurd like a pin on an unpinnable spot of a green) I've ever seen.
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The 11th hole is a par 3
180 from the gold tee
141 from the blue tee
This is a fine par 3, but it is tough to stand up to the par 3s on the front nine and the 16th to follow. This holes claims the unfortunate task of batting lead-off for back-to-back all-world par 4s. Because of the other standouts on the course - not because of the weakness of this particular hole - I find this to be the least entertaining of the short holes on the course. For me it really completed what felt like a two-hole transition for me.
To the left of the tee is a nice stone wall, which can also be found on the left boundary of the par 5 14th hole. When we played the 14th in the morning I asked Mike about the walls. His response was that the owner wanted them included because they reminded him of Ireland (or something to that effect.) During the afternoon round, Jack Crisham, who didn't join us for the morning round, mentioned how the wall on the 11th was reminiscent of Ireland. I guess they pulled off the effect pretty well!
A single bunker guards the front center of the green, and another guards the rear. To the left is some native grass and smaller trees - just enough to lose a stray ball as our group discovered. A slight miss left will funnel the ball back to the green, but more than a few yards is not a good place to be (unless you perfectly plan the bounce off the skinny tree.) The back left portion of the green (where the pin was located the day we played) is very small but relatively flat shelf. Missing just off the green in that area was a great place to be - much better than most spots on the green to that pin.
The larger portion of the green is well contoured and can provide some wild and fun putts. I would have enjoyed a pin tucked just over the front bunker, as the green looks receptive to using the slope in the middle of the putting surface to feed the ball back to the hole. Missing short and right or just right should funnel the ball further away from the hole.
All-in-all a fun, but less spectacular hole than the other par 3s on the property.
The view from the back tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/11TeeTips.jpg)
The view from a much shorter tee box
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/11Tee2.jpg)
A closer look at the green from the front
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/11Green.jpg)
A look from the left side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/11Green2.jpg)
And one final shot from behind
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/11Lookback.jpg)
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The 11th has become a much better hole in the last couple of years with the tree clearing. I think there is even more wind to play with because of the tree clearing between 10 and 18. The slope in the front right seems to be more prominent, and intimidating, with the recent revisions. Pins on the right side can lead to some serious butt puckering.
Negotiating that back bunker, especially with a pin on that back shelf, can require nerves of steel along with an A+ bunker game.
Fun hole. But I agree with Tim in that it's not my favorite of the five.
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The front right portion of the 11th green is essentially a false front. Almost every ball that hits the front right quarter rolls 5-10 yards off the green. It's an oddity; there are no front or middle pin placements on the right third of the green.
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The eleventh is an example of how a hole fits into and adds to the completeness of the routing. On a stand-alone basis, it is clearly not the most thrilling of the five one shotters, nevertheless it adds to the rhythm of the course. After the ninth hole, the tenth and eleventh are very solid holes, but provide excellent balance and are a pleasant change from some of the more daunting and white-knuckle experiences from the front side. Also, they are a brief interlude before the back side really heats up!
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The eleventh is an example of how a hole fits into and adds to the completeness of the routing. On a stand-alone basis, it is clearly not the most thrilling of the five one shotters, nevertheless it adds to the rhythm of the course. After the ninth hole, the tenth and eleventh are very solid holes, but provide excellent balance and are a pleasant change from some of the more daunting and white-knuckle experiences from the front side. Also, they are a brief interlude before the back side really heats up!
Nick, that is perfectly said and perfectly sums up #11 (and #10) in my mind.
#11 is the second consecutive hole that won't "knock your socks off" stepping up to the tee. And once again, from the pictures and after only a couple rounds, one may tend to think the hole is inferior to most others on the course.
I think eleven fits perfectly in its role as stated by Nick above. However, it has one hell of a green with a lot of movement and very interesting/difficult/fun pin placements. The top back shelf right in front of the rear bunker is especially tricky.
some pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole11diagram.jpg)
before the right-side tree removal
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole11b.jpg)
and after
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole11a.jpg)
this pic is very misleading...the green has MUCH more movement than shown here. General movement would be from back left to front right
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole11c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole11d.jpg)
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I'm hoping Melvyn won't see those abominable vehicles cluttering the landscape in the foreground, but I did have the tremendous thrill this past summer of playing the 11th hole with the wonderful gentleman and smooth swinger in the blue plus fours on the left.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3536/3221994798_c2b186ee89_b.jpg)
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The 11th is a wonderful hole with a slight southeasterly direction, similar to the 2nd hole’s direction from the shorter left tees but playing longer at about 175 yards from the back tee. The left bank of the approach can be used to effectively bring a ball down to the left side of the green, where the flagstick is located most of the time. An aggressive tee shot to the left may kick forward, though, and leave a delicate chip back to the pin. The back pin plateau is very challenging, as the location is small and perched above the surrounds as well as having the bunker left of it. The pins just behind the front bunker require precision to get close on the tee shot as anything a bit too long or right of it will run completely off the green and short grass to the mowed rough. I like the fact that the right side looks benign from the tee but presents numerous problems for those players experienced with the hole. Although we have removed many trees on the hole for agronomic reasons since the course was built, I think the hole still represents a more traditional view of a par three for many, with trees around it and a nice green setting on a hillside just past a valley.
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The front right portion of the 11th green is essentially a false front. Almost every ball that hits the front right quarter rolls 5-10 yards off the green. It's an oddity; there are no front or middle pin placements on the right third of the green.
John,
I would say right behind the front bunker is almost right front, although we may be splitting hairs. Aso, the diversity of pins on the left is really more front to middle back, as the green angles up to the plateau there, so club selection is a bit tricky for someone not familiar with the hole.
Cheers,
Mike
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I'm hoping Melvyn won't see those abominable vehicles cluttering the landscape in the foreground, but I did have the tremendous thrill this past summer of playing the 11th hole with the wonderful gentleman and smooth swinger in the blue plus fours on the left.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3536/3221994798_c2b186ee89_b.jpg)
I think this looks to be a terrific hole. I like what seems to be its straight forward nature, the options of aerial or kick in and that it doesn't look too difficult to get 4, but getting a 3 takes a bit of savy. I have to find time to play this course - have I said that before?
Ciao
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The 11th is a wonderful hole with a slight southeasterly direction, similar to the 2nd hole’s direction from the shorter left tees but playing longer at about 175 yards from the back tee. The left bank of the approach can be used to effectively bring a ball down to the left side of the green, where the flagstick is located most of the time. An aggressive tee shot to the left may kick forward, though, and leave a delicate chip back to the pin. The back pin plateau is very challenging, as the location is small and perched above the surrounds as well as having the bunker left of it. The pins just behind the front bunker require precision to get close on the tee shot as anything a bit too long or right of it will run completely off the green and short grass to the mowed rough. I like the fact that the right side looks benign from the tee but presents numerous problems for those players experienced with the hole. Although we have removed many trees on the hole for agronomic reasons since the course was built, I think the hole still represents a more traditional view of a par three for many, with trees around it and a nice green setting on a hillside just past a valley.
Mike,
How much of the change of pace that one encounters with #10-12 was by design? I know in our conversations in the past you have spoken of how holes flow together and how important that is to you. Did you have a specific aim for this stretch of holes to give a breather before the demands/choices pick back up on #13?
Sean,
You definitely have to get over to see this course. It is such a joy to play golf at Kingsley. This course should be part of any serious discussion of best modern era courses.
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Mike,
How much of the change of pace that one encounters with #10-12 was by design? I know in our conversations in the past you have spoken of how holes flow together and how important that is to you. Did you have a specific aim for this stretch of holes to give a breather before the demands/choices pick back up on #13?
The rhythm and flow of the golf course is all important to any good golf course and I do look at sequences of holes a great deal more than one specific hole. Where that pace goes up or down is different on every course, depending on what the land gives you and the transition from front to back nine here does this well. #12 hasn't been discussed yet by everyone but from the reaction I get from a lot of players is that it is not low on the impact scale -- many people go on about it quite a bit. Yes, it is not unconventional like #13, unless you consider bunkerless holes unconventional (people don't really mention that when they talk about the 12th), but it makes an impression, whereas some of the comments on 10 and 11 have been "connector hole" type of responses. There is nothing wrong with that and, in fact, I think good solid connector holes are critical to raising a golf course's level overall. Too many courses try to have each hole outdo the last hole and it overwhelms the player and ignores the importance of the rhythm and cadence of the course.
I think 10-12 offer many different options for play and are solid holes and stand on their own, just maybe not as dramatic as the front nine. The difficulty level of the holes is as stout as, or more, than holes 13 and 14, which are really half-par holes to the easy side -- maybe their perceived difficulty in relation to par makes them more difficult?
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I really liked the way the far left side of the green was hidden from the tee. With the flagstick on the left side of the green, you can't help but feel like there is still more green to the left. The angle from the forward tees on the far left side would be a really fun shot.
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Holes 10-12 maybe transition holes, but as Mike said, they certainly aren't "breather" holes by any stretch of the imagination. They certainly aren't as visually stimulating / dramatic as some of the other holes, but don't sleep on them.
10 - Like I said is a tough drive for me, and plays uphill to a green that isn't as severe as some of its cousins, and maybe thats part of the difficulty (i.e. over-reading your putt)
11 - It seems like the general feeling is this is more of a straight - forward / breather type par 3. Relatively speaking, I guess it is. Again, I think that may add to the difficulty. I don't think I played the course prior to the what seems to be extensive tree-removal from this part of the property, but the wind, in my limited experience has really given this hole some real teeth. That being the case, the target is pretty small considering club selection (which has been anywhere from 8 iron - 5 iron). The green falls away, considerably on the right side, adding to the difficulty. I have yet to try or see anyone try to feed it up the left ramp. That seems like a cool shot, and a practical one when facing a big wind. Another thing I like is that the angle of the green itself (back to front) is receptive to little punch / half shots, which again is important considering the windy nature of the course. Plus, I know the architect likes to flight his ball quite low, maybe thats the overwhelming factor!!!
Shoud be interesting / fun to see the different set-ups here and throughout this summer for the GCA gathering.
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Plus, I know the architect likes to flight his ball quite low, maybe thats the overwhelming factor!!!
Well, I never!!!!
;D
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Mike,
How much of the change of pace that one encounters with #10-12 was by design? I know in our conversations in the past you have spoken of how holes flow together and how important that is to you. Did you have a specific aim for this stretch of holes to give a breather before the demands/choices pick back up on #13?
The rhythm and flow of the golf course is all important to any good golf course and I do look at sequences of holes a great deal more than one specific hole. Where that pace goes up or down is different on every course, depending on what the land gives you and the transition from front to back nine here does this well. #12 hasn't been discussed yet by everyone but from the reaction I get from a lot of players is that it is not low on the impact scale -- many people go on about it quite a bit. Yes, it is not unconventional like #13, unless you consider bunkerless holes unconventional (people don't really mention that when they talk about the 12th), but it makes an impression, whereas some of the comments on 10 and 11 have been "connector hole" type of responses. There is nothing wrong with that and, in fact, I think good solid connector holes are critical to raising a golf course's level overall. Too many courses try to have each hole outdo the last hole and it overwhelms the player and ignores the importance of the rhythm and cadence of the course.
I think 10-12 offer many different options for play and are solid holes and stand on their own, just maybe not as dramatic as the front nine. The difficulty level of the holes is as stout as, or more, than holes 13 and 14, which are really half-par holes to the easy side -- maybe their perceived difficulty in relation to par makes them more difficult?
Mike,
Your supposed to wax elequoent with some analogy like comparing a golf course to a symphony. It can't all be loud creschendos and cymbal crashes with epic stuff going on non-stop....you need the slow quiet bits in the middle to accentuate the other more dramatic bits at the beginning and ending. ;)
If you say stuff like that, then people will be wowed/impressed and you'll be well on your way to legendary status. See its easy! ;D
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Mike,
How much of the change of pace that one encounters with #10-12 was by design? I know in our conversations in the past you have spoken of how holes flow together and how important that is to you. Did you have a specific aim for this stretch of holes to give a breather before the demands/choices pick back up on #13?
The rhythm and flow of the golf course is all important to any good golf course and I do look at sequences of holes a great deal more than one specific hole. Where that pace goes up or down is different on every course, depending on what the land gives you and the transition from front to back nine here does this well. #12 hasn't been discussed yet by everyone but from the reaction I get from a lot of players is that it is not low on the impact scale -- many people go on about it quite a bit. Yes, it is not unconventional like #13, unless you consider bunkerless holes unconventional (people don't really mention that when they talk about the 12th), but it makes an impression, whereas some of the comments on 10 and 11 have been "connector hole" type of responses. There is nothing wrong with that and, in fact, I think good solid connector holes are critical to raising a golf course's level overall. Too many courses try to have each hole outdo the last hole and it overwhelms the player and ignores the importance of the rhythm and cadence of the course.
I think 10-12 offer many different options for play and are solid holes and stand on their own, just maybe not as dramatic as the front nine. The difficulty level of the holes is as stout as, or more, than holes 13 and 14, which are really half-par holes to the easy side -- maybe their perceived difficulty in relation to par makes them more difficult?
Mike,
Your supposed to wax elequoent with some analogy like comparing a golf course to a symphony. It can't all be loud creschendos and cymbal crashes with epic stuff going on non-stop....you need the slow quiet bits in the middle to accentuate the other more dramatic bits at the beginning and ending. ;)
If you say stuff like that, then people will be wowed/impressed and you'll be well on your way to legendary status. See its easy! ;D
Well, actually, Kalen, I prefer the theatrical or written analogies, where the golf course can be correspond to the acts, each with its own build-up and climax. Then, the final act with its climax, followed by the postlude/afterword on the 18th or just after finishing the 18th as you walk back to the clubhouse, maybe with a view or reprisal of something from the round.
How's that? ;)
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Mike,
Thats a good start grasshopper.
What you have to do now is prepare a 10 page long speech for the event this summer as I'm sure the GCA boys will want you to give a talk or something during one of the nightly festivities. You can title it "Why Kingsley is ever better than the Mona Lisa" and do a thorough compare and contrast of the two. And don't worry if thier eyeballs start rolling back, its cause they are deep in thought!! ;D
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Well, actually, Kalen, I prefer the theatrical or written analogies, where the golf course can be correspond to the acts, each with its own build-up and climax. Then, the final act with its climax, followed by the postlude/afterword on the 18th or just after finishing the 18th as you walk back to the clubhouse, maybe with a view or reprisal of something from the round.
How's that? ;)
Translation: "I can read OK, and I like watching bad acting, but I know jack squat about music..."
Joe
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Ha, ha - good one, Joe. You speak Devries, I see -- but I'm guessing you also have some inside knowledge.
If no one minds a general comment, culled from all the holes I've seen here so far and my playing of The Mines. Mike is an exceptionally good green builder...
Peter
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Ha, ha - good one, Joe. You speak Devries, I see -- but I'm guessing you also have some inside knowledge.
If no one minds a general comment, culled from all the holes I've seen here so far and my playing of The Mines. Mike is an exceptionally good green builder...
Peter
You aren't allowed to make that comment until you've seen #13... ;)
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Ha, ha - good one, Joe. You speak Devries, I see -- but I'm guessing you also have some inside knowledge.
If no one minds a general comment, culled from all the holes I've seen here so far and my playing of The Mines. Mike is an exceptionally good green builder...
Peter
You aren't allowed to make that comment until you've seen #13... ;)
Tim,
First, Joe doesn't know what he is talking about!
Second, Peter is very insightful!
Third, what about #13?
Cheers! ;D
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Ha, ha - good one, Joe. You speak Devries, I see -- but I'm guessing you also have some inside knowledge.
If no one minds a general comment, culled from all the holes I've seen here so far and my playing of The Mines. Mike is an exceptionally good green builder...
Peter
You aren't allowed to make that comment until you've seen #13... ;)
Tim,
First, Joe doesn't know what he is talking about!
Second, Peter is very insightful!
Third, what about #13?
Cheers! ;D
You'll just have to wait for two more holes like everyone else to find out what I think!
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Calling Tim Bert!
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#12 is a par 4
455 from the gold tee
425 from the blue tee
The tee shot can be tough here. The yardage can be intimidating on this par 4, though it doesn't play as long as the distance suggests since the tees are elevated well above the fairway. The fairway has adequate width, but there is some serious trouble awaiting misses on either side. The left side is wooded. The right side has some of the longest, most dense stuff in play on the course dividing the 12th from the 13th. I'm painfully aware of how tall and thick the junk is in this area. I walked directly through it when I sent a tee shot wild right on the 13th hole (coming back toward the 12th.) I then got to experience this journey again after the round ended when I realized that one of my head covers fell off in this area. My golf towel still had some seeds, thorns, and clingy things from the trip last September. Until I set aside some time to hand-pick these guys off the towel, they aren't going anywhere.
The fairway has some nice rolls and turbo boost areas to further help the distance challenge on the hole. For me, the real joy of this hole is the approach and green site. The green site appears to be naturally nestled in the surroundings. The scene is visually appealing to me, particularly from behind the green looking back on the hole.
The green feels tiny in comparison to what will follow on the 13th, but it has interesting movement. It is a great "ground game green" and as we've discussed on the front nine this is a ground game course. The course is set up fast and firm, so running the ball up to the target is often the preferred approach. To the right of the green is some mowed grass that will funnel the hot runner back toward the green, yet the front right and middle right of the green will spill the ball back off the green, so the ball must have enough momentum to run to the back in order to take advantage of this "spill it toward the green" feature. Likewise, the left side of the green appears receptive to shots that just miss the putting surface as there is a slope on that side. While I'm probably not describing this accurately, the green feels like it is crowned, yet in a bowl. Many of the surrounds seem to filter the ball toward the green, but the edges of the green appear inclined to filter shots away. I walked away with the impression that it was very possible for many approaches that landed on the edges of the green to finish off the green while approaches that use the surrounds appropriately may come to rest on the green.
This is one of my favorite par 4s on the course, which is really saying something. 12 and 13 is probably my favorite back-to-back combo on the course.
A view from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/12Tee.jpg)
A closer view from the same tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/12Tee2.jpg)
A couple pictures from the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king12fwy.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/12Fairway.jpg)
Some pictures of one of my favorite green complexes (along with 8 and 13 and 16 and... well, most of them) on the course. I love the "pocket" on the right middle portion of the green. The last photo here is currently my laptop's wallpaper (I just recently replaced the Phillies WS celebration photo)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/12Lookback.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king12greenrear.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/12Lookback2.jpg)
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No love (or hate) for #12??
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Tim,
In the words of the Beatles, "Love, Love, Love..."
First point...balls do not come down from the right side hill, much as one might wish.
Second point...the first time I played Kingsley, I thought the 3 hole stretch of 10, 11, 12, might be the least inspired on the course. The second time I played I came to the conclusion that the the 3 hole stretch of 10, 11, 12 are as restrained, natural, and perfectly minimalistic as any 3 hole stretch build in the past 50 years.
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Definitely a hole you've got to focus hard on. Placing it in the fairway is a great idea, that stuff on either side is pretty miserable to be in. If you do keep it straight, what a fun green to hit into. Love the front left pin.
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To me, #12 has the most "northern michigan golf" feel to it out of all the holes at kingsley: elevated tee, trees coming into play down the left, no scrubby/wash bunkering. However, unlike typical nothern michigan golf, the fairway cants and tumbles, the ground plays firm and fast to take advantage of the movement, and the green has all sorts of spring boards and subtle run offs.
I think Mike C was right that after finishing the 10-12 stretch, a first timer might question the backnine's validity after witnessing the severity and quality of the front. This stretch can come away as "uninspired" (as Mike put it) compared to the holes experience prior, but I think with more rounds, one would see the amount of detail and quality (albeit subtlety) of the 10-12 stretch. I might also add that this subtlety complitments the severity of the two holes that encompass this stretch, #9 & #13, very well.
I don't think the drive on #12 plays as tight as it looks...anything landing in the first cut of rough on either side tends to find its way back to the fairway.
As with all the greens at Kingsley, this one is worthy of a 1/2 hour with a few wedges and a bucket of balls...
Here are a few pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole12diagram.jpg)
This one really shows all the movement in the fairway:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole12b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole12a.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole12d.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/hole12c.jpg)
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Hi Tim,
I agree that #12 is the hole where the most searching for wayward tee shots takes place, which is a mark against it. A lot of balls end up on the hillside between 12 and 13. If you really focus on where the ball lands, you can usually find it and play it.
I've been waiting to make this comment until hole #12 was discussed. This hole lends itself very well to a running approach, and I will often try to play a draw approach shot, landing short of the green.
However, it is my opinion that the front nine does not have one hole I would consider a good "ground game" hole. On the front nine, either the green is perched above fairway grade several feet, or the approach strongly favors a high, soft shot, or both. In my mind, I can see shots on holes 1 or 5 bounced in, but nowhere else, and even those aren't common plays.
The back nine at Kingsley has all the "ground game" shots, on holes 10, 13, 15 and especially 12, 14, and 16. That, plus the fact that the back nine is a more natural forested environment, are two reasons why I like the back nine better.
I like #12 a lot. You've got to hit a sraight, solid drive, which leaves me a middish iron. Sometimes I'll hit a high one in there; other times, especially from the left side, I'll turn one over and curve it in there right to left, with a little extra roll. It's just gorgeous in that little valley.
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Concur that 12 is a very special hole. The safest plays seem to be the most rewarded. Especially the GG approach opportunities utilizing turbo boost short and the left green side hill. Even the right green front has a tiny valley of sin like cut which I especially liked.
One last thing I've said before, when I played the hole, standing near the left side of the fwy LZ, I thought for sure Mike would've been channeling the 13th at Crystal Downs, and had a blindish bunker placed on the leeward side of the left hill green side. When, I saw it wasn't there I was surprised. But then my attention turned to the right green side and was impressed with how small a cut could make such an impact. Similar to the 13th at Pacific Grove's Valley of sin but unique enough to be totally DeVries.
JK, I could've sworn #4 was a great opportunity to play GG approaches. At least when I played from short right before the bunker, my ball just ran and ran all the way to the middle of the green.
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You can certainly play short on #4, but that's a big ridge to negotiate. If you're way back, say 200 yards, a low long shot will bound over that thing.
In general, for short and middle pins on #4, I'm trying to fly it there. For a ack pin, I might try to run it to the back, playing the ground game solely on the giant green.
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Unless the pin is cut in the back of #'s 3, 4, and 5, I'm almost always trying to land it short on them and running it in off one of the many guiding slopes. I do see more options for it on the back, but those three are more often than not ground gamers for me.
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John Kirk was kind enough to help me locate my errant drive into that hay to the right of #12. If I could make one recommendation about that course, it would be to cut that rough down to maybe 2" so it might be possible for one of those inevitable blocks to be easily located and maybe even bounce down onto the fairway.
The approach shot into the green is terrific, great run up opportunity that must be kept left because of that fall off in the green.
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Bill, I don't see how a lower cut up the right side hay would work. For one, The tee shot begs a big hitter to consider challenging the right side with a long drive. Failure to carry the native, is the penalty for making the aggressive attempt and failing. Perhaps the right side short off the tee could be thinned out, allowing recovery? But, doing that would seriously affect the naturalness of the vegetation and it's continuity throughout that entire hillside.
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Hi Tim,
I agree that #12 is the hole where the most searching for wayward tee shots takes place, which is a mark against it. A lot of balls end up on the hillside between 12 and 13. If you really focus on where the ball lands, you can usually find it and play it.
John,
That's a very good point and one I hadn't thought about before. Someone in my group has put a ball into the hillside in all four rounds that I've played. I'm guessing that 7 may be a close second?
Despite this, I still love the hole. The drive and approach are both exciting, yet challenging shots. The approach shot to the back right pin position is particularly fun!
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I thought this was one of the more intimidating tee shots on a course with quite a few intimidating tee shots. The way the tee is set you feel like it's necessary to bite off some of the nasty stuff on the right side or play a cut, which I cannot do (at least intentionally). While it does play shorter than the scorecard yardage, if you don't find the fairway I think it's a very tough par.
I really like how the green is partially hidden. The setting of that green is almost as great as the green itself. I need to try one of John Kirk's running approaches there.
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John Kirk was kind enough to help me locate my errant drive into that hay to the right of #12. If I could make one recommendation about that course, it would be to cut that rough down to maybe 2" so it might be possible for one of those inevitable blocks to be easily located and maybe even bounce down onto the fairway.
I disagree with you here Bill. Adam listed some good arguments against what you proposed which I agree with. I think if you cut the scrub on that hill down to 2 inches, the drive on #12 wouldn't mean anything; you could hit it almost anywhere and be fine...especially if a ball that lands on the hill eventually rolls onto the fairway.
I wouldn't be against thinning that stuff up. If it was thinned to the point where it would be reasonably easy to find a ball (more so than it is now), but still created a half penalty by pretty much only allowing the player to advance the ball back to the fairway, I think it would be a benefit.
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#12 was also one of my favorites--granted I did drive it in play both times so watching the ball bound down the hill is certainly enjoyable. Others have commented on the green and its surrounds which I thought were very well done.
I'm usually in favor of keeping "hay" thin enough to find the ball and play it--I don't recall anyone in our group hitting it in there so thankfully we didn't have to take a look so I really can't comment. I do think 2" would be too short--the ball would seemingly almost always roll back to the fairway and I think the charming look that the hole has now would be diluted.
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You can leave the hay alone, just cut down the forest along the left hand side so I can play the hole and move on.............. ;D
I didnt remember the tee shot being that straight away when I played there, I though it called for more of a draw off the tee, but since I snapped hooked every drive for the week there, I am probably wrong.
I really enjoyed the various approach shots you could play into the green complex, the stretch from 12-14 is one of my favorite 3 hole stretches I have ever played.
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What is the prevailing speed of the greens at KC?
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If I could make one recommendation about that course, it would be to cut that rough down to maybe 2" so it might be possible for one of those inevitable blocks to be easily located and maybe even bounce down onto the fairway.
Ace,
Since you are a member in good standing on this site, we will just pretend you never said that. :o
#12 is a solid hole. The tee shot doesn't set up well for my eye for some reason (I get the same feel on #7). The approach shot is the tricky part due to the falling away nature of some of the green.
On to #13 please and one of the craziest greens in golf. 8)
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Number 12 is a beautiful hole and truly unique. Many people I have played with comment on the dramatic tee shot and the background of the trees, particularly in the fall. The lack of bunkers is uncommon but there is plenty of difficulty given its length and undulations around the green.
The tees are off-set just enough to put a moment of hesitation into the golfer's mind about his alignment. The valley down below is a joy to walk through on the way to the green.
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The tee shot is certainly dramatic, and one that if I may borrow what Ed said, doesn't fit my eye, or my game !! I would agree that this is a beautiful part of the property in the fall, as is the tee shot (the whole hole) on 14.
I guess I never really noticed that the hole was completely bunkerless, I find that to be really interesting / cool. I think thats because I'm usually on a search and destroy mission on the right hill, neverless an cool feature (or non-feature)
Has anybody, willingly or accidently taken the alternate route up on 13 and played down the hill? Be curious to hear of the results.
The green here is subtle, but a challenge. I've peronally had very little success trying to use the slope / hill on the left front to chase balls onto the green; How bout the rest of you?
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Here are some shots from my personal collection circa last october, pretty colors...
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e192/neveuxda/KingsleyClub10-12-0835.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e192/neveuxda/KingsleyClub10-12-0836.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e192/neveuxda/KingsleyClub10-12-0837.jpg)
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The twelfth’s setting in its own valley certainly garners many accolades from golfers for its scenic beauty, particularly in autumn with the colors out. Of course, the elevated tee also wins points, as most golfers like that, and it flows down into the valley with a gentle curve and culminates in a green saddled by hillsides – it is a very inviting look. The fairway is narrower than all at Kingsley except for the pinch on the 10th but the valley nature of the land makes it very forgiving for a slight misdirection.
The heavy rough on the right sees a lot of play, due to it being on the inside of the small dogleg the hole possesses and the preferred shot into the green is easier from the right side of the hole. The right hillside is very steep and not mowable with riding mowers (it is dangerous even for a dozer :o ) so mowing it down to allow a ball to release to the fairway is not going to be an option, nor do I think it should, as a decent accurate drive will bound down the fairway and leave a mid-iron approach to the bunkerless green. I have found it rare to not find a ball on the hillside, as it is long enough to hold balls but not too thick to make it impossible to find and play down to the fairway.
The left hillside at the green is difficult to gauge for balls to release from and stay on the green, hence the running draw at the front center is a great approach shot. Balls played through the “valley of sin” on the right can be effectively run up and drift onto the green for a back right pin. The green itself is long and narrow, with lots of subtle pin locations and often players will read a break going one way when it goes opposite ;) – not sure if that is an optical illusion or a tendency due to the valley nature of the hole and what is perceived as the logical break. A very fun hole!
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I've been waiting to make this comment until hole #12 was discussed. This hole lends itself very well to a running approach, and I will often try to play a draw approach shot, landing short of the green.
However, it is my opinion that the front nine does not have one hole I would consider a good "ground game" hole. On the front nine, either the green is perched above fairway grade several feet, or the approach strongly favors a high, soft shot, or both. In my mind, I can see shots on holes 1 or 5 bounced in, but nowhere else, and even those aren't common plays.
The back nine at Kingsley has all the "ground game" shots, on holes 10, 13, 15 and especially 12, 14, and 16. That, plus the fact that the back nine is a more natural forested environment, are two reasons why I like the back nine better.
John,
I like to bounce the shot into #1 off the right hillside, either on the approach or for recovery shots around the green, and often play it long and running to come back down to a pin due the steepness in the back. I also use the running approach on holes 3, 4, and 5 (almost exclusively here). #6 looks like a running approach is good but it is difficult to pull off, although you can bounce a soft cut approach off the right front to settle on the green, but not the preferred shot to get close there. 7, 8, and 9 have recovery shots that can all benefit from a creative ground game, but don't lend themselves as much on the approach shots.
I agree the back has more ground game approaches: 10, 11 for the left side safe play, 12, 13 depending on what you are trying to do and where you put your drive, 14, 15 although it is very difficult no matter what play you are attempting, 16 - a great one to watch from 17T :o, and 18 off the front left shoulder if you are in a bad position or facing a stiff wind (I love a punch 5-iron into the front approach and watch it curl into the middle bowl).
When I also think about the ground game, I don't only think in terms of the approach shot, but the drive, second shot, recovery shots, etc. that can utilize the firm, fast turf that Dan Lucas has perfected at Kingsley -- it gives every play an opportunity to use the ground for good or bad results and set up the next play. And because of this, the contour of the land at Kingsley has an impact on every shot and the best players take that into consideration with each stroke.
Mike
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What is the prevailing speed of the greens at KC?
9.5-11, typically 10-10.5. Greens should be firm and roll true -- if they are slower you can pin steeper, tighter areas and if you speed them up for an event, then you have to use the flatter areas.
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C'mon Tim! On to #13 and one of the great short par 4's in the game! #13 could generate the most discussion of all....
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#13 is a par 4
292 from the gold tee
271 from the blue tee
Walking off the green of #12, I remember thinking "How are we going to top that?" Welcome to the short par 4. You could hit just about any club in the bag off the tee (except for putter, unless you can hit it with a little carry) and still make birdie on this hole. You could also drive the green and easily make bogey.
I was so focused on this hole from start to finish that in two rounds, I forgot to take a single picture of the hole until we were done playing the 2nd round. While I was able to get some good photos of the green, I had to rely on John for the pictures of the tee shot and the approach. There's a special feel to this hole from the moment you step to the tee.
The fairway is a subtle diagonal from the tee and has a bit of a cape hole feel to it. The more direct line at the green you take, the more you must cut off. In reality, most playersd with reasonable length off the tee don't need to worry about the carry, even when taking the direct line. The view is imposing enough to make you think about it because most of the fairway in direct line with the green is hidden from view from the tee. As long as the ball is struck solidly, you shouldn't have an issue.
There's plenty of room in this fairway. There's a bunker guarding the front of the hole, but plenty of room to go around it and still find your way onto the green. There's also a lot of playable area to the left of the green to bomb it up near the green. This hole is really about the short game options, and I think it is best enjoyed with a tee shot that comes to rest inside 50 yards. It's the half-wedge lob, bump and run, or putt 2nd shots (as well as the putts) that make this hole magic.
The green is... well, hard to describe. The pictures will help, but the only way to do this creation justice is to go see it for yourself. It is massive in scale - both in absolute size as well as in terms of the undulations. Unless you stick it tight, a two putt is something to celebrate. A three putt shouldn't be a surprise. It's one of the few greens you walk up to and think that some pin locations could easily yield multiple 4-putts in the course of a day. There is a couple foot drop-off to one large portion of the right side of the green. There is a tiny shelf in the back that is pinnable and could cause fits. There is more going on in this green than one could reasonably take in all in one day. You could spend an entire day just playing this hole over and over. Actually, you could easily spend a day just playing around the green - forget about walking back to the tee.
A great hole right in the middle of a great stretch of wonderful golf on the back nine.
The view from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king13.jpg)
The approach from the left side of the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king13approach.jpg)
A shot of the green from a distance - not much going on here, right?
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king13greensidews.jpg)
A view from the lower portion of the green - even money on a three-putt from here!
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king13greenws.jpg)
Another view from a similar angle with a bit of a bunker in the foreground. The magnitude of the change in elevation of the green is apparent from this angle.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/13BunkerGreen.jpg)
A view from the back right of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/13Green2.jpg)
A mostly complete lookback of the green from the rear. It is nearly impossible to capture the entire green in one photo - this angle gives you a pretty good sense for how much is going on here.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/13Green.jpg)
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Fascinating hole. I recall the bunker in front of the green dominating my thinking on the tee, and then of course being completely stymied by it on approach. The hole is certainly one of those that requires thinking a couple of moves ahead.
The pics below were taken by Matt Schulte, one of our occasional contributors.
The web sites map shows three tee boxes at nearly the same distances, but with different angles.
Here is a pic from the middle tee (I think)
(http://home.comcast.net/~et1016/Kingsley 145.jpg)
John Kirk employing a wand on his second shot
(http://home.comcast.net/~et1016/Kingsley 158.jpg)
I think it turned out ok
(http://home.comcast.net/~et1016/Kingsley 160.jpg)
Green from the wide open left-hand side.
(http://home.comcast.net/~et1016/Kingsley 171.jpg)
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The 13th is finally here...
This hole can be absolutely dumbfounding. At 285 yds from the tips, one would think this should be a good opportunity at a shortish birdie putt...but that is rarely the case.
The fairway is huge. Deciding to go for the green is difficult visually, b/c standing on the tee, you're looking slightly uphill at the green and it's hard to discern what exactly is going on up there. The fronting bunker immediately grabs your attention. I would imagine this one grabs quick a few well struck attempts at the green.
In my limited play, I have never had a go at the green. This is because, for me, the closer you get to this hole, the worst position you can find yourself in. Whether it be short-sided, stymied by a vicious bunker, or simply in an aweful place considering the pin position and green contours.
I prefer taking my chances with a 3/4-to-full sand or gap wedge. It's impossible to explain how many really bad places you can find yourself in around this green. Your chances of an up and down from some places to certain pin positions in slim to none.
A par is something to cherish on this short little devil.
Of all the holes so far, this one seems to photograph the worst. It's really hard to get a feel for the drive, the approach, or the green and its surrounds from photos. As Tim said, you really need to see it to begin to understand it...
Here are some photos from the website:
This might be the most useful picture of the lot
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole13diagram.jpg)
from the Back tees, which if I recall correctly contend with the scrub on the right the most
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole13a.jpg)
left angle of front bunker
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole13b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole13c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole13d.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/hole13e.jpg)
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Tim,
Thanks for getting the discussion going on 13. This is a favorite of mine on the back side.
The choices here are amazing. You can go for an exacting drive to the right side, a somewhat less exacting drive to the left, the big dogs can go for it, or a relatively easy lay up to your favorite full wedge shot into the pin. There might still be other options but I haven't yet seen them.
Well, there is the hit it - in the back left bunker - for a back pin approach.
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Geez louise, I've never played a green like that in my life. I'm getting scared just looking at it...
You know how we talk a lot about half-par holes around here. I guess there are number of ways to get that effect/outcome. But Mike seems to make you THINK it's happening from tee to green (a feat in itself) but then has you realizing (probably too late) that it's ACTUALLY happening on the putting surface....until the next time you play the hole, and then -- because you may have learned something about the green -- it goes back to ACTUALLY happening from tee to green and then happens DIFFERENTLY on the putting surface. That is just great architecture...
Does that make sense to anyone?
Peter
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Complete and total sense, Peter.
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It may be the shortest 4.5 par in the country. Other than #9 of course.
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Geez louise, I've never played a green like that in my life. I'm getting scared just looking at it...
You know how we talk a lot about half-par holes around here. I guess there are number of ways to get that effect/outcome. But Mike seems to make you THINK it's happening from tee to green (a feat in itself) but then has you realizing (probably too late) that it's ACTUALLY happening on the putting surface....until the next time you play the hole, and then -- because you may have learned something about the green -- it goes back to ACTUALLY happening from tee to green and then happens DIFFERENTLY on the putting surface. That is just great architecture...
Does that make sense to anyone?
Peter
Peter,
It does make sense. In the past few years I have realized how great golf holes have you thinking all the way back to the tee. Unfortunately we don't get to play most great golf holes often enough to realize that.
On #13 the pin placement determines where you want to come in from, thus you need to get your tee shot there. On this green in particular placement of the tee shot is very important because there are no helping slopes in this green. In fact most slopes in this green are repelling if anything. I have never played to a back pin, but otherwise if you play conservatively to the front 2/3 of the green you should be able to make par on this hole the majority of the time. If the pin is down in the bowl on the right side of the green you don't have to worry as most balls seem to find their way down there anyway. If the pin is up on the "flat" part of the green your aggressiveness and ability to execute the shot will determine your score. If you are aggressive and go a hair long you are down in the bowl most likely, from which a 3 putt is likely. However, if you make sure to miss a little short/left and have decent touch getting up and down is not that hard. However, for a hole that short settling for par almost feels like a bogey.
I love this hole and as Tim pointed out you could easily spend an entire day out around that green complex trying different shots.
I have never driven the green and given how well the flattish front left section of the green is protected by the fronting bunker, I don't know that driving the green is that helpful. It is probably better to drive up to the left side of the green as close as you dare.
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The 13th is a really fun hole and was always intended to be a short par four, but it evolved into its current state during construction. The original concept was to have a sliver of green along the back rim of the deep bowl that is left of the green but during the clearing of the brush on the hole (this area was clear-cut regrowth) the contours of the current green became evident and I scrapped the original green site in favor of what appeared to be the natural choice for the green – it was too cool and offered too many great flagstick locations and options for play and, so, was easily the choice. The large bowl was there and all the intricacies of the formation were essentially intact – all I had to do was refine a few spots and cut out bunkers.
The tees are arranged in a horseshoe shape, with the far right side occupying a peninsula above the twelfth green and looking at the right side of hole across a chasm of native rough. This gives an aggressive look at the hole but blocks out a sightline to the left fairway bunker. The middle of the horseshoe is the back tee and this tee was built with the intent that the leaning maple in front of it would be removed but the owners like the tree and, hence, the tee remains unused. Just to the left of that pad is a similar length tee and this is on the left side of the horseshoe, set at a higher elevation and giving a full width view of the hole – seeing more of the fairway and feeling a bit more comfortable but still demanding a decision for how you want to play the hole. Tee shots can range from a mid-iron to driver to get to the spot that is most desired by the player.
The fairway and maintained rough is 80 yards wide, with a full 35+ yards left of the green. The gap in the right approach offers a narrow window but affords a better approach shot for most pins as the player can hit into the slope of the approach or on the green to control his shot better. Many players prefer to lay up to a full wedge but this leaves an uphill shot with the cup blind 95% of the time, only visible on a very front pin.
The bunkers on the green offer a variety of penalties and opportunities. The central front bunker and large bunker right of the green are not terrible spots to be in on the drive, as you usually have a nice uphill shot to the pin. In fact, with the flag in the deep center right bowl, the right bunker might be one of the premier spots to “miss” the tee shot! :o
Looking forward to everyone's comments when we play in June!
Cheers,
Mike
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This is my absolute favorite short par 4 that I've ever played. There are so many way to play this hole and all sorts of scores that are possible. I played 36 there last October and had a 6 on my first try. I tried to lay up left and pulled one into the crap on the left. (It should not be in play!). The 2nd time around I decided to go right for it with a 3 wood. This is where my tee shot ended up. It sure is easier this way!
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/bjoines/photo.jpg)
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Brian,
Thats the easiest pin out there ;D, Well done.
Personally I always try to blast one on, but my little half wedge game is a joke. Last year, during a great dual between my partner and I versus Devries and Cenci, this hole was a lot of fun. I blasted a low cut driver off the back of the green, sitting in the rough. Devries placed his tee shot in perfect position down the right hand side of the FW. Pin was in the bowl I believe. Devries was not having the cave-man approach I took, and we all knew that after I hit my shot it was up to the gods whether I'd have a playable shot or not. I got up and down for a 3, and Mike, god-bless him missed a little bunny and made four. HE WAS ANGRY, for a split second. I could tell he really wanted to "show us" how to play the hole, and he deserved a 3.
I think the common denominator here is variety. There seems to be infinite ways to try and attack this hole, and what makes it a great hole is it doesn't let up, you have to be pretty exacting on every shot, unless you just "take dead aim" ala Mr. Joines. The putting surface itself is a wild, and everyone who said the pictures don't do it justice has nailed it. Certainly one of my favorite short fours of all time. For me having played out here several times, the anticipation for this hole starts in the parking lot. I love telling first-time offenders, you think thats wild, wait till we get to 13!!
I seem to have misplaced my photo's, here is the only one I can find.
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Kingsley%20Club%2010%2011%2008/KingsleyClub10-12-0838.jpg)
I think this is a view from the collection area left of the green, but I cannot be sure.
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Kingsley%20Club%2010%2011%2008/KingsleyClub10-12-0819.jpg)
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The green is amazing. But if you don't get really close off the tee, you cannot see the hole. You can walk up, look at the green, then walk back but as soon as you stand over the ball you're confused all over again. It's a great place to play around trying all sort of shots, but it would be tough for me to ever feel comfortable on. A great short hole.
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In the context of sequencing, this triskaidekaphobia hole sets the tone for most of the remainder. My interpretation, after one round, is the feeling that anything goes from here on out. Maybe it's the way the 3 preceding holes set it up, due to their sequence, but at this point in the round, the golfer's juices should be flowing full throttle.
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That pin that I showed is definitely the easiest that I've played. It's on the flattest part of the green and in a little hollow. I've never played the hole with the pin cut on the left hand or back portion of the green. There appears to be some pretty tough spots on that fabulous green!
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I was kidding, although it may be. Great Shot Man.
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Brian,
What kind of shot did you hit to get your drive there? Did you skirt the bunker or just go right over it?
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This is my absolute favorite short par 4 that I've ever played. There are so many way to play this hole and all sorts of scores that are possible. I played 36 there last October and had a 6 on my first try. I tried to lay up left and pulled one into the crap on the left. (It should not be in play!). The 2nd time around I decided to go right for it with a 3 wood. This is where my tee shot ended up. It sure is easier this way!
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/bjoines/photo.jpg)
Nice shot, Brian!!!!
I haven't heard of any holes-in-one on the 13th yet, but there have been some amazing eagles, with the best being a holed wedge to the back left pin during the Peninsula Cup a couple years ago! :o
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Mike,
Back left pin...now that's got to be the easiest pin on the green. 8)
I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been more commentary / questions / downright disgust ;) ;D per this hole / green. As stated I'm a fan, a big fan. But for the sake of discussion....
You mentioned that back left pin, that is one hell of a spot. The slightest miss propels the ball off either slope and into a spot that makes for an unlikely recovery. Some may not even consider it a miss rather a stroke of bad luck or an unfair result. Personally I think it makes for exciting shots, and without a doubt some of these said bounces are going to benefit the player.
I guess my question is for those who feel that these greens are a bit unfair, and that luck (whether bad or good) sometimes negates skillfully played shots, what do you say to them.
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The back pin position is diabolical. I once woefully underestimated how far back it was to that position, and came up short, but stayed on the green. Putting from the front portion of the green to the back position is all but impossible. I think the level strip of land on the top of that ridge must be about a ball wide.
The recovery play when the pin is back there, is to hit it to the flat part behind the green and take your medicine with a 5 rather than trying to come out of a bunker and keep it on the flat part of that portion of the green.
The hole is a ton of fun all around. I wish the back pin position would be used more because it is so unique.
Also, I would like to see that back tee box put into play...
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I'm surprised, as I assume others are, of the small amount of discussion #13 generated. However, I'm betting that will change after this summer's GCA get together ;)
None the less: Calling Tim Bert! Onto the rest of the wonderous back nine!
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I think it is hard to discuss the hole much unless you have played it to understand how wild it is. I do know there are people who love this course and think that #13 is a bad hole because they think the green is unfair/too penal. Unfortunately we haven't heard from them as perhaps that would be of interest.
I think any green a golfer would be happy to spend an afternoon hitting shots into must have something going for it.
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The 13th is such a good and unique hole I don't even know what to say about it except, Bravo!
My only complaint is the little back left tongue of the green is superfluous and a gimmick on a hole that needs none.
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The 14th is a par 5
567 from the gold tees
510 from the blue tees
This one is caught in the middle of a stretch of fantastic (and potentially controversial in the case of the 15th - more on that later) holes. It is a nice mix with a bit more subtlety than 13, 15, 16, and 17 which all have something pretty wild going on. It's not a hole you would probably call subtle on many golf courses, but that's the best word I can think of for it here.
The tee shot is yet another where the carry looks more intimidating than it plays. There is plenty of room with little to no carry on the left side, which will lengthen the hole a bit. The hole eventually turns right, so the more you care to bite off from the tee, the better position you will be in assuming you execute. The left side of the hole is heavily wooded, but there is plenty of width out there before the trees.
The fairway way has an up and over shape to it. Depending upon where your ball comes to rest, there is a good chance the landing zone for your second shot will not be visible. Once you get over and around the hump, the final couple hundred yards play downhill as the hole begins to narrow. There is another charming stone wall along the left side of the hole, which plays as OB. While there is room surrounding the green, the OB is definitely in play for a stray shot left. Bunkering is in place on the right side, both short of the green and greenside which combined with the stone wall creates a tighter feel than most approaches on the course.
The green site is another nice one to walk off, turn around, and look back on the surroundings to put the hole in perspective. The setting is very nice. The green has plenty of movement and a big hump to get over to get to the back tier, but may feel extremely small and flat after the #13 experience. Hopefully you made par or better on the last two holes because you face a stern test as you walk to the 15th tee.
A view from the back tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/14Tee2.jpg)
One from a closer tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king14tee.jpg)
The over and around view from the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/14Fairway.jpg)
Once you get around the bend, here's what you see
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king14fwy.jpg)
The approach to the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/14Approach.jpg)
A view of the approach from the right side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/14Approach2.jpg)
The green - the contours are evident from this angle
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/14Green.jpg)
Three shots from behind - one from the left, the center, and the right
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/14Lookback2.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king14greenrear.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/14Lookback.jpg)
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A view from the back tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/14Tee2.jpg)
Wow Tim, that was quick! Much appreciated.
The picture above from the tee is a little misleading if you haven't played the course. It appears very tight w/ a small landing area, but there is actually fairway behind the bunker complex (which will be evident from the hole diagram that I'll post later). From the angle of this picture, you can take it pretty much right over the center of the bunker complex (between the two bunkers) and still find the fairway. Also, the right side of the landing area is sloped right to left from the hill that spills into the hole, which helps kick drives left.
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Wow, taking out the trees between #14 and 15 looks fantastic. I don't remember that stone wall left of #14 down near the green. Was that put up in recent years? I seem to remember a barb wire fence if anything.
I love the look off the tee and how the open area to the left draws lots of tee shots even after you know you can carry the junk. The second shot is a bit anticlimatic for someone like me who can't reach the green in two. The green is fantastic and requires your complete attention no matter how short the chip or putt may be.
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Wow, taking out the trees between #14 and 15 looks fantastic. I don't remember that stone wall left of #14 down near the green. Was that put up in recent years? I seem to remember a barb wire fence if anything.
I love the look off the tee and how the open area to the left draws lots of tee shots even after you know you can carry the junk. The second shot is a bit anticlimatic for someone like me who can't reach the green in two. The green is fantastic and requires your complete attention no matter how short the chip or putt may be.
I played in summer of 2007 and I too do not remember the stone wall. Anyone?
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The stone wall has been a work in progress since late 2007, I believe, but really took shape last summer. The wire fence is still there at least in the middle stretch of the hole. It is the property line for the course. The changes have all been really nice to see. In addition to the stone wall the cart path has been re-routed so that it does not go up the left side of the green anymore making the left side feel more open.
Also (in perhaps 2005?) a bunker was added behind the green and a number of trees were removed. Most of the changes to 14 have been subtle, but make it an even more picturesque hole. And now there is greater opportunity to bank one back on to the green off the stone wall!
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If I could make one recommendation about that course, it would be to cut that rough down to maybe 2" so it might be possible for one of those inevitable blocks to be easily located and maybe even bounce down onto the fairway.
Ace,
Since you are a member in good standing on this site, we will just pretend you never said that. :o
#12 is a solid hole. The tee shot doesn't set up well for my eye for some reason (I get the same feel on #7). The approach shot is the tricky part due to the falling away nature of some of the green.
On to #13 please and one of the craziest greens in golf. 8)
Everyone is entitled to the occasional whine.
Okay, I take it all back like I took my medicine!
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I like it when the carry, even on the ideal line, is more manageable than it first appears.
I like it when the disorientation of a blind/semi blind second shot isn't compounded by a narrow or hazard-strewn landing area.
I like it when the green surrounds on a Par 5 (and not even an overly long one) give the conservative player a bit of a break while challenging the bolder and/or longer hitter.
Call me faint of heart if you will, but I'm guessing that after the 13th green I'd really appreciate a do-able Par 5 (usually my least favourite of all the par-types in any event...)
Peter
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I like it when the carry, even on the ideal line, is more manageable than it first appears.
I like it when the disorientation of a blind/semi blind second shot isn't compounded by a narrow or hazard-strewn landing area.
I like it when the green surrounds on a Par 5 (and not even an overly long one) give the conservative player a bit of a break while challenging the bolder and/or longer hitter.
Call me faint of heart if you will, but I'm guessing that after the 13th green I'd really appreciate a do-able Par 5 (usually my least favourite of all the par-types in any event...)
Peter
Well then Peter, I think you would like the 14th at Kingsley ;)
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Ha - good one, George.
I do like it, a lot. And that's saying something, because it's true that Par 5s are usually my least favourite holes on any golf course. I can't really give a reasonable defense of that narrow-minded point of view, but there it is.
I haven't read through the entire thread in a while, so I don't remember -- have you played Kingsley? If so, was it as fun to play after the 13th as I imagine?
Thanks
Peter
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Ha - good one, George.
I do like it, a lot. And that's saying something, because it's true that Par 5s are usually my least favourite holes on any golf course. I can't really give a reasonable defense of that narrow-minded point of view, but there it is.
I haven't read through the entire thread in a while, so I don't remember -- have you played Kingsley? If so, was it as fun to play after the 13th as I imagine?
Thanks
Peter
The 14th is even more fun the second time around because you realize the root canal (or colonoscopy - pick your pleasure) that immediately follows in the form of the 15th. I mean the pain in terms of difficulty not in terms of enjoyment. While the 15th is the kind of hole many will complain about - the dreaded word "unfair" comes to mind - I loved it!!
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Ha - good one, George.
I do like it, a lot. And that's saying something, because it's true that Par 5s are usually my least favourite holes on any golf course. I can't really give a reasonable defense of that narrow-minded point of view, but there it is.
I haven't read through the entire thread in a while, so I don't remember -- have you played Kingsley? If so, was it as fun to play after the 13th as I imagine?
Thanks
Peter
Peter,
Yes, I have played the course 3-4 times since about 2004. I really like the 14th hole, especially taking into consideration where it sits in the sequence of holes on the back nine. It is stuck beautifully between 12 &13 before it and the very tough 15th and the home stretch after it. It’s the perfect time in the round for a hole like 14th.
After your first play, you get much more comfortable w/ the drive (really the only somewhat daunting task of the hole) b/c you realize how much the fairway opens up beyond the bunker complex that dominates the view from the tee. A good % of players will have a chance at getting home in two, especially if you cut the corner aggressively and catch a good bounce off the hill coming in from the right (I’ve seen people hit 6 iron into this green on the 2nd although I would assume a long iron or fairway metal would be more common). And therein lies the big option on this hole: take a chance at getting home in two with penalizing bunkers right, OB/stone wall left, and a difficult green w/ quite a few tiers OR lay up to your perfect yardage and try to make birdie/par with your favorite wedge in your hand.
I really like the way this hole just unfolds across the land lazily in front of you with its gentle rolls. Since my first play, they have added the stone wall, moved the cart path to the other (right) side of the hole, and removed a few tall pines that used to be between 14 & 15. All these changes have drastically improved the look of the green complex IMO, as well as the whole 14th green complex & approach/15th tee area & initial fairway: it’s a really pretty little pocket back in this corner of the property. I think this is another really fine green complex and green, which seems to be the norm at Kingsley.
This hole is probably your best shot at birdie on the back nine.
Here are some pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/DIAhole14.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/14b.jpg)
Notice the cart path on the left: This has been moved to the right away from the green and beyond the bunkers. Now the stone wall is present. This move had a big impact on the look of the green complex. Also note the bunkerless back of the green; they have recently put in a rear bunker as Tim mentioned.
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/14d.jpg)
Notice the trees between #14 & #15. As you can see in Tim's pics, a lot of these have been removed
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/14c.jpg)
Another one pre tree removal
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/14a.jpg)
The caption of this pic is wrong. The fairway in the background is of the 15th hole.
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/14e.jpg)
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The 15th is a par 4
465 from the gold tee
421 from the blue tee
This is a hole that can draw a strong reaction (only one on the course, right??) It is a long par 4 that plays even longer than the yardage on the card. The green is small and nearly impossible to land and hold - if you can even reach it. If you hit the green in regulation on this hole you either have some serious game or you are playing a set of tees that is too short (like maybe the reds at 370.) The best thing about it is that the putting surface is relatively tame with a good oppotunity to make a one-putt par.
Mike told me as we walked the hole that this one draws some harsh criticism from good players. Some strong players feel that two well struck shots on a hole should entitle the golfer to a GIR, and that isn't the case on this hole. The strong player will still have an ample opportunity to make a par with a good up and down, but there probably aren't too many birdie putts per day from the tips on this hole. Like #9, some may call this hole "unfair." I thought it was terrific! Except for the stupid tree that Mike decided to leave on the right side of the fairway... that was a bit unfair. ;)
The hole plays as a subtle dogleg left if played to the center of the fairway. Aiming down the left edge is the most direct line, but missing more than 10 yards left will put your ball in the scraggly stuff, and also potentially bring a giant wall of trees in play. The left side of the fairway also has a nice sized hump in it. Balls will funnel hard right, and once the hump starts it continues on up the left side to the green site. The right side has plenty of room. Just don't leave your ball directly behind the lone tree as I did. It makes the nearly impossible long approach totally impossible.
There is ample space to miss the tiny target on the left. There is a tight grass recovery area (or grass hazard - take your pick with terminology) that will funnel shot closer to the green, but which could also leave for some tricky downhill lie chips.
The green sits several feet above the fairway. Even with the firm and fast conditions found at Kingsley the front of the green compounds the fabulous problems the golfer faces with his approach. If you've got enough heat on a shot to run up the face, it is probably equally likely it will run all the way through this small green. If the shot doesn't have enough oomph it will not find its way up in the first place. The greenside bunkers are all guarding the back half of this green. I would suspect that more mis-played third shots find themselves in the bunker than second shots. The green itself is tamer than many on the course, but still interesting. There is a small "mini bowl" that makes up the front left section - you can see it around the pin in the photos below.
Chalk this up as one more hole that is beautiful from behind the green. Looking back, the green fits wonderfully into the surrounds on both the left and the right. The photos from behind the green are amongst my favorites on the course.
John Mayhugh and I teed off +4 on this hole in our match against Alan Gard and Mike. I made back to back pars on #13 and #14 to give us what we thought was certain victory... Alan and Mike each made a par from the tips (Mike had to do so in order to prove the hole was fair) which completely swung the momentum of the match.
From the tips
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king15.jpg)
From the next set up
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15Tee.jpg)
From the center of the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15Approach.jpg)
Another view of the approach
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king15approach.jpg)
This one a bit closer to the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15Approach2.jpg)
And another - this one with better shadows
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15Approach3.jpg)
From directly in front of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15GreenFront.jpg)
From the back of the green looking at the front of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15Green.jpg)
Pardon the multitude of photos taken from behind and around the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15Lookback.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15Lookback2.jpg)
You can see #16 on the right side of this one
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15Green16Tee.jpg)
A couple from the bunkers bridging the 15th and 16th
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/15Greenfrom16.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king15greenfrom16.jpg)
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Looks to be a definite par 4.5 to me....at least.
I'm curious if the original green was meant to be larger and wider and fill in the entire bowl section a little more. The ample space to the left looks a little odd, but i'm sure it makes for a tough pitch shot to the green if one misses there.
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After your first play, you get much more comfortable w/ the drive (really the only somewhat daunting task of the hole) b/c you realize how much the fairway opens up beyond the bunker complex that dominates the view from the tee.
George,
I wouldn't go that far to say the tee shot on 14 is the only daunting aspect while playing the hole.
The narrowness of the approach and the str8 line OB left are accentuated by the daunting looking right side.
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I had a "strong reaction" to this hole--I loved playing it, starting with the assumption that it's probably going to be a 3-shot hole, and you have no idea what kind of pitch, chip, skip 'n run, or whatever floats your boat shot you'll end up having for your third. This tiny green on a long hole on a modern course is really a great surprise.
This is one of those hole I could never tire of playing, great fun.
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Mike,
You're not right >:(, or are you ;D
Kudos to what is to me hands down the most difficult hole I face every summer. The question is why wouldn't you? If your short game is in shape, you've got several options for recovery on this hole. I think the key is (as it is on this course a lot) in order to avoid the BIG number or maybe salvage a par, you have to know where to leave your 2nd shot in the case of what seems to be an all too often misfire. As I notice with multiple plays both here and at Crystal Downs in there are going to be times when your main objective is to make no worse than a bogey, and try and take advantages of the birdie opportunites you have. A five here at 15 is not anything to get you down, don't worry about par, but at all cost don't get too aggressive and make the mistake 6.
14 to me is a great risk / reward hole to me. The tee shot (especially for 1st timers) appears somewhat consticted and nerve racking (appears to be a long carry), to what really is not a long carry to a WIDE landing area. I guess, and I'm probably going to sound stupid, but I think it has some "CAPE" elements. After getting over the intial uncertainty, there is undoubtedly A LOT of room. If you dare, you can really cut the corner here, and leave yourself a mid to short iron in. Now even when holding an 8 iron, from the right hand side, a g.i.r isn't an easy task. When not hitting the ideal tee ball, but holding a long iron or fairway wood, this is a smallish target surrounded by O.B. left, bunkers surrounding amist some long grass and native "weeds." A two putt for par, not an easy task, is a very rewarding number and sometimes a real plus considering the two holes to follow......
All apologies to any typo's / error's / insults ect....RED STRIPE...HOORAY BEER
NEV
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The stretch of the last few holes detailed here visually remind me of holes 12-14 at Greywalls, and that's a good thing.
Cheers,
Brad
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*Regarding #14*
After your first play, you get much more comfortable w/ the drive (really the only somewhat daunting task of the hole) b/c you realize how much the fairway opens up beyond the bunker complex that dominates the view from the tee.
George,
I wouldn't go that far to say the tee shot on 14 is the only daunting aspect while playing the hole.
The narrowness of the approach and the str8 line OB left are accentuated by the daunting looking right side.
Adam,
It all depends on which shot you're going for the green with: 2nd or 3rd. If you're going for the green in two w/ a fairway wood or long iron (most likely from the right side of the fairway w/ OB more in play), then yes, this is a VERY daunting shot, as it should be (the age old adage that the risk of the shot should be directly tied to its reward, in this case having a shot at eagle or two putt birdie).
However, the hole is short enough of a par 5 that MOST players (playing the correct tees) can get themselves to a lay-up yardage of their choice should they decide not to try in two or cannot reach in two. (This obviously assumes that the player executes a drive commensurate w/ their ability and not off in the woods where the only option is to chip out sideways). In this case, given that the player is at their "go to" yardage (whether that be 100 yds or 40 yds), it should make the challange of the shot much more comfortable for them (aka less daunting). You can also factor in that the player laying up can try to allign himself on the left side of the fairway to remove some of the daunting aspect of OB left.
Is it a tough green and green complex? Yes, but the hole gives the player the option of taking the huge risk in order to get home in two, or the option of laying up to a comfortable yardage and angle. I think this hole has an excellent balance of risk and reward.
- George
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Looks to be a definite par 4.5 to me....at least.
I'm curious if the original green was meant to be larger and wider and fill in the entire bowl section a little more. The ample space to the left looks a little odd, but i'm sure it makes for a tough pitch shot to the green if one misses there.
Kalen,
I believe Mike will tell you it was always designed as such.
Regarding the left side, pin high left is the perfect miss or layup for this hole. It was discovered some years ago that a pitch into the bank (with practice) will yield a putt inside 5 feet a high percentage of time. It might have been Ed and Mike that figured out the shot. I know I have never been on in two and that's the only way I've made par on this hole.
Good hole, especially with the clearing that was done around the green.
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I like it when the green surrounds on a Par 5 (and not even an overly long one) give the conservative player a bit of a break while challenging the bolder and/or longer hitter.
Peter
Peter,
Good call on #14 I hadn't thought about it like that before.
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Perhaps when Tim played the 15th hole, the pin was in the back, because the front pin position is a doozy.
I like 15 mostly because it is rather unique, a long par 4 with a really small, difficult target. 4 is a great score here. I've only played "Foxy" at Dornoch once or twice, but isn't this a similar type hole? Little raised green on a 470 yard hole.
I've hit the green in regulation twice in maybe 30 tries.
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Nice to see all the discussion on the 14th and 15th holes -- I will try to catch up with these a bit more in the next couple of days.
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Man
This 15th is a one off no? I really like the idea of the kick in being cut-off from the green by a swale. A few questions:
Does the back right of the green (as seen from the tee) raise slightly? If so, does this help with chipping from left of the green?
Is the grass short enough to haul out the flat stick from left of the green?
Does the green sort of slide to the front from somewhere near the middle forward? If so, is it critical to keep a ball meant to be played left below pin high?
Ciao
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I believe most golfers absolutely hate this hole, and the better ones hate it most of all.
I believe it took absolute chutzpah and cunning imagination and I wholeheartedly applaud both the effort and the execution.
I love how good players don't complain a bit at all about #14 being too easy at a par 4.5, while they bitch about the unfairness of a shorter hole running in the opposite direction being a par 4.5, as well. ;D
Think about that for a moment...that's how entrenched this whole dumb idea of "par" and "GIR" is to this generation.
Most gracious thanks to brother Mike D. for audaciously trying to free us from the utter tyrrany of stereotypical modern perceptions and sterile, narrow expectations of what a golf hole should be.
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The pin we faced was closer to the front than the rear. I think it is more of a doozy trying to get on in 3. It seemed fairly accessible for 3rd shots (or 4th shots!!)
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Sean,
The back right is raised, and shots can be played off it.
In general, the green has significant back to front slope. I've gotten up and down to a middle left pin from the left swale by putting up at the back left and having the ball make a more than 90 degree turn back at the pin.
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I'm looking forward to this one as much as any on the course. I can only imagine the complaints I would hear from my low handicap friends about this green.
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My favoutite hole on the course...quite simply an awesome long par four.
The demands on the tee shot appear non to demanding from the tee itself until you have played the hole a few times and realise that to the front pin, you need to be on the correct side of the fairway.
Of course the natural contour of the fairway helps.
What a demanding second shot though, wherever the pin but especially that evil front pin!
With so little room to the right of the green, the complex on the left comes into play and from there, the recovery shot is at best daunting.
The only place to miss is short, which is of course approrpraite as a running shot onto this green is the best option to getting the ball to sty on the putting surface.
One of the harder greens on the course...in terms of firmness....a true test of golf and for me De Vries at his best!
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Yes Michael,
I agree. Lay up a bit short on the second shot. Get a little too delicate with the pitch, and watch it roll back to your feet. Then pitch 30 feet long and try to two-putt for your double bogey.
I don't usually sing the praises of long par 4s, but this one is unusually exciting.
From the back tee, I can't drive it over the ridge, so I usually end up with 200-220 from the green, and try to fade a fairway wood up there, hoping to miss left if I miss. Then decide whether to flop, putt, or bounce it into the bank. Fun.
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The 15th hole is one that would undoubtedly grow on you with more opportunities to play it. It's fair in the sense that everyone plays the same hole and the number on the scorecard shouldn't matter much. Ironic that the numbers guy I was playing with actually grasped that fact well before I did.
This hole is a challenge and I think one that becomes a lot more fun as you try to figure out a way to beat it (i.e. make par or better). I can't wait to play it again.
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I had a "strong reaction" to this hole--I loved playing it, starting with the assumption that it's probably going to be a 3-shot hole, and you have no idea what kind of pitch, chip, skip 'n run, or whatever floats your boat shot you'll end up having for your third. This tiny green on a long hole on a modern course is really a great surprise.
This is one of those hole I could never tire of playing, great fun.
Eric, you forgot Johnny Miller's new favorite, the "chunk and run." ;D
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I agree w/ pretty much everything that has been said so far regarding #15: It is one hell of a tough hole.
So much of your strategy for the hole is dependent on where your tee ball lands. The fairway is actually quite large and hard to miss, however the effective area in which one needs to land their ball if they want a good angle into the green is much smaller. This difficulty of finding this small area off the tee is compounded by the heavy left to right slope of the fairway in the landing area (the best angles into this green are from the middle to left side of the fairway). If you lose your drive to the right, it is possible to still find the fairway (or first rough) and be completely blocked out for your second by the trees coming into play on the right side of the hole. If this is your fate, I would think the best plays are either to lay up to your favorite short wedge yardage, or blast one out left of the green in the collection area and try to get up and down from there. There are all sorts of fun ways to funnel a ball into the collection area left of the green.
If you manage to hit the proper spot with your drive, you can’t relax as the difficulty is only beginning. From there, most players will have anything from a mid or long iron to a fairway wood (or unreachable for short players) into a tiny green perched up on a knob with 3 foot fall-offs on the right, front and left, and penalizing bunkers behind the green (an awful place to be). One might imagine that if you manage to hit this green in regulation, the architect would have rewarded you with a nice simple and flat putting surface…think again! It slopes somewhat severely from back to front, with great undulations (albeit more subtle ones compared to other parts of the course) throughout.
The collection area to the left of the green must get tons of traffic as it acts as a natural collection bowl for anything near it (it is all shaved at fairway height). To get to the pin, the options for the player who finds himself here are almost limitless.
The “upside down bowl” style of this green can create the dreaded over and back, over and back, scenario that we have all witnessed or been a part of at some point.
This part of the course is one of my favorites. All within a few hundred yards, you have the 15th green/green complex, the entire 16th hole, and the teeing ground for the 17th. It is a really great spot.
The last time I play Kingsley, I hit a career 6 iron into the green that finished about 5 feet above the hole, which was positioned middle/front-ish. As I walked up to the green and saw how close the ball was to the hole, I remember thinking that this will finally be the day when I beat #15 and card a birdie! After jabbing at my 5 foot slider and nervously watching it roll 4 feet past, I managed to slip in the equally long par putt for a stressful par.
Great 4.5 par hole…
Here are some pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley Pics from website/15diagram.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley Pics from website/15d.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley Pics from website/15a.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley Pics from website/15f.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley Pics from website/15e.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley Pics from website/15g.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley Pics from website/15b.jpg)
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Holes 14 & 15
These back-to-back par four and a half’s provide some great golf and tease the player into trying certain shots that they often shouldn’t.
I always look forward to the drive on 14 and trying to blast one over the bunkers, hoping to get the kick forward that will lead to a chance to go for the green in two. I am not a long hitter but am confident with a 3-wood and have reached the green and its surrounds on several occasions. It is a fun rip at the ball and more fun to see it run up the approach toward the flag. Recovery shots are demanding but fair. The lay-up poses its own issues, as the bunkers 80 yards out pinch the right side of the fairway. I don’t worry too much about the out-of-bounds on the left, although it is certainly in play, and the stone wall has a nice effect and will ricochet a shot occasionally.
The green is small but with considerable contour that can be used to advantage in getting a ball closer to the pin. The front has a backstop that brings the ball back to the cup and is one of the easier pins on the course. The middle has two levels, left and right, that are separated from the back by a broad mound. The back is dished between the mound and the up-sloping back of the green and fringe. The target areas are small, but if you are on the right level, you have a good chance at a one-putt. Definitely one of the birdie holes on the course.
The 15th turns around and smacks you in the face, with its long four to the smallest green on the course. The tee and landing area are at the same elevation, but the drive feels all uphill due to the long gentle slope of the hole from in front of the tees. A good drive will find the shelf on the left side, giving the player a better angle to the green but still requiring a mid-to-long iron approach. Indifferent drives slide to the right and present a good lie but demanding a cut shot around the trees on the right. A good second shot play here is safe to the front or side approach or to a distance one is comfortable playing for a precision pitching wedge.
Most third shots are from somewhere around the base of the green, facing a variety of shot options to a small target on top of a domed shelf. It is an unnerving play and even I have been subject to going back and forth a couple of times (never did get to double digits, though ;D). The small green has quite a bit more contour than you would expect for such a demanding hole and pars are well earned while birdies are few and far between.
The contrast of the short par four 13th with its huge green, the reachable par five 14th, and the long par four 15th with its small green makes for an enjoyable sequence of holes and I really like the juxtaposition of options available on all of them.
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I am just curious, what is the exact square footage of the 15th green? It looks small, but fun to play!
Brendan
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I thought the 14th & 15th were a great duo.. i intuitively took the right side route over the bunkers/hill on 14 and found reward.. on 15, my approach from along the tree line looked so small that I just played to front of green, it happened to hit the mound & roll right and off and I luckily got up and down.. we putted around on that green for a while and I can understand how getting there is half the fun..
and finally getting to 16, which I had been warned about..
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I am just curious, what is the exact square footage of the 15th green? It looks small, but fun to play!
Brendan
Brendan,
The 15th green is about 3700 sq. ft. -- smallest on the course, although 8 others (#2, 6,8,9,11,12,14, & 18) are from 4000-5000 sq. ft. The average green size is 6000, due to the 3 large greens -- #3 @ 10,500, #4 @ 12,300, and #13 @ 12,400.
Mike
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Man - the sprinklers running on #15 in those pictures just destroys the whole vibe for me... Those should be taken down from the web site!! ;D
#16 coming soon.
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#16 is a par 3
225 from the gold tee
175 from the blue tee
Kingsley is full of fun, interesting, and sometimes confounding par 3s. #16 is my favorite of the bunch. It begins winding down my favorite stretch of holes on the course, which began with #12 (I can't decide if #17 gets included in this group or not - it is something to behold for certain but my feelings about it aren't as strong as the preceding holes.)
The transition from the 15th is a cool one. The tee for this hole is up above and behind the 15th green. From the tips, the tee shot is played somewhat over the green complex, though I don't really recall it being directly over the green itself. There are several bunkers in place between the tee and the green, but only one or two should ever come into play for most golfers.
From the tips, a low runner well right of the target works rather well. Mike teed his ball up on this hole and hit his shot well right of the green. It was far enough right that I recall thinking he must have really pushed it out there to the right. He seemed pleased enough with himself despite what appeared to be a lackluster effort. Well, we all learned the lesson of "architect knows best" as we watched his ball land well right, bounce and roll to the left, disappear from view behind a small mound, reappear on the green, and trickle left until it settled rather nicely on the green not too far from the pin.
Mike's approximate line is highlighted in green. His ball ended up just beyond the pin. Balls struck at or to the left of the red line that land just in front of the green or on the front of the green will end up well short and left of the green in the red highlighted area.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/16Tee2-MarkedUp.jpg)
Once we approached the green, the fun continued... I had left my ball down in the area short and left of the green, very near the bunker on the left of the green. I could get cute with the false front if I wanted, I could hit the ball safely beyond the pin and take my chances with a lengthy par putt... or, as I decided, I could "be like Mike." I chose to hit the chip shot intentionally right of the green to the same pocket Mike's tee shot found. The ball faithfully funneled back to the green and gave me a nice par putt (which I then missed!)
The green arrow indicates where I hit my second shot from. The green circle indicates my landing area.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king16green-markedup.jpg)
The final fun happened when Alan lined up his putt (don't recall the exact length, but it was inside 20 feet.) Alan had taken a similar approach to Mike off the tee and was rewarded with a shot at birdie. He hit a really nice looking putt that trickled a bit longer than intended. The ball rolled a couple feet past the hole and came to what I would have sworn was going to be a complete halt when Mike offered up this gem - "Sorry!" The ball took a half-turn, then another, one more, and then it was off to the races. Alan ended up where you see him in the photo below... Mike is still all smiles from the result of the evil pin location.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king16devriesgard.jpg)
More photos -
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/16Tee.jpg)
From a lower elevated tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/16Tee3.jpg)
Looking up at 16 from the 15th fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/16From15FW.jpg)
A look at the green from the back right. The left side of the photo shows the funnel that Mike used to filter his ball in close.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king16greenrear.jpg)
A picture of the 16th green with the tiny 15th green in the background
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/16Green15Green.jpg)
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What an awesome modern redan. It's probably my favorite hole on the course. I think given the right trajectory and curve on the ball, one could go well right of Mike's line shown in Tim's photo and still get on the green. Of course, fail to pull off that low draw and you are confronted with quite the challenge.
Believe it or not, the right cluster of trees could also come into play if you're trying for the draw and get a push instead.
No way to adequately describe the fun of watching your ball move along the ground here.
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Mike,
Is that a Michigan State Green Spartan hat your wearing in that picture?
;D ;D ;D ;D
NEV
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Although I usually make the safe play, which is a draw aimed well right of the green, I think the best play, for those who dare, is a straight or faded shot that starts at the flag. There's a bit too much uncertainty on how much roll you will get tumbling down the hill from the right. You can roll them right across the green if you aren't careful.
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John M
Looking at my marked up photo again I think Mike's ball may well have been right of the marker I placed. I remember thinking he was dangerously close to the trees on his line.
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Agreed, John - a shot up the right side works well but you've got to pick an appropriate spot on the hill to generate just the right speed onto the green. Too far up the hill and it can either stay there or run all the way across the green. A soft cut into the right side of the green works well, but you'd better be accurate in every sense of the word to pull it off.
This plays a lot like the approach to #2 on Greywalls (there of course the slope is left of the green) - too far up the hill left of the green and it'll run all the way to the bottom tier. If the pin's on the left side of that green, hit it right at the left fringe and it'll hit softly and trickle down just a bit. Recovery shots around the green are an absolute blast there and at #16 at Kingsley when you find a creative way to use the backboard.
More examples of the extreme fun to be had at any of Mike's tracks.
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I had a good laugh Tim seeing your pics of 16 (great as always), then reading about how to play the hole made me laugh even harder (at myself of course!).
Let me show you where my second shot was played from. May I borrow your pic for effect?
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/16TeeEricsteeshot.jpg?t=1237476873)
Chunked my 7 iron, leaving an awful lie in the sand, ball below my feet, foursome approaching the 15th green behind me, pure humiliation.
Trudged up the left side. Double.
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Eric,
Nice shot. You are miles ahead of most as far as strategy.
Another brilliant par 5 from Mike....... ;D
Joe
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See -- Golf IS FUN!
;D
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This one's a little late but shows the tree clearing between 14 & 15
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/14-15BConklin.jpg)
Looking back from green to tee on 16
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1405.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1407.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1406.jpg)
I really like the way 16 and 17 meld together with the fairway cut right up to the tee boxes
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1409.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1408.jpg)
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The transition from 15 to 16 (and seeing 17 beyond) is one of golf's coolest feelings. Up there with the tree tunnel after CPC's 15th. Not sure if it's the intimacy or the feeling you get when you see the terrain of the 16th green and 17 tee, but the setting is quite special. The golf is like the best hot fudge, or icing, one can find.
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Mike,
Is that a Michigan State Green Spartan hat your wearing in that picture?
;D ;D ;D ;D
NEV
Pretty sure that is a Kingsley hat (although I do own a Spartan hat!). Hope the boys do well in the tourney and make the Final Four -- that would be a big home-field advantage in Detroit!
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Mike's approximate line is highlighted in green. His ball ended up just beyond the pin. Balls struck at or to the left of the red line that land just in front of the green or on the front of the green will end up well short and left of the green in the red highlighted area.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/16Tee2-MarkedUp.jpg)
Tim,
I am pretty sure it was further right than your green line. I usually shoot for the cherry tree/bench on the hill, depending on the speed I want to attack it with and where the pin is located. The hump in front of the green, the peak of it is just to the right of the red line, will really move a ball to the left if you miss the slot right of where the green line is. If you don't carry enough speed and are short of the green, then the hump affects the approach shot as well. The really difficult pin is just beyond the hump in the front -- very hard to stop it there.
The cut/fade into this green is a very good option for those that can play that shot consistently, but frequently the wind is coming at you and quartering from the right, so pretty tough to execute on a regular basis, at least for a low-ball runner type of player like me . . . 8)
This hole had about 25% of the dirt work on the course. The green was actually in a steep valley/ravine that came off of the cart turnaround for #17 tee. The fairway was a large roll and we cut down the fairway, pushing all the sand into the valley and building the green from that material. We took about 200-300 yards down to #15 green to build the front of that. These two greens are the most manipulated / created greensites on the course, with 15 standing out as such and 16 feeling more natural. Both work really well and create some wonderful golf.
Cheers,
Mike
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Tim, thanks again for this great thread. I appreciate your time and effort. About the time I think I should cancel on the trip this summer for economic reasons you post another hole and my resolve go to is restored.
Bogey
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What a great hole! There are so many options around the green. I tugged my tee shot into the left bunker. The pin was middle/back center. Just to see if I could do it, I purposely hit the bunker shot all the way over the green up into that banked, back right short cut ... waited.... and watched the ball do a 360 and trickle back to a foot or two from the pin - one of the coolest shots I've hit in years, all thanks to Mike DeVries and one hell of a green design!
Loved it, loved it, loved it!
If I had any sort of control over my bunker shots, I would love to try this one!
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As has been mentioned, I believe by Adam C., this little pocket of the Kingsley club is really special. Standing on the 16th tee brings I think the best view on the back nine, especially in the evening, as you look out over the entire complex that includes the 15th green, the entire 16th, and the teeing ground for the 17th. The bunkering, the large expanse of short grass, the trees, and the gentle slope of this spot create one of golf's great "secret gardens".
The shot played by Mike D., as explained by Tim, must be something spectacular to witness. I've visualized that shot many a time, although unfortunatley I have never seen it done. My game works a lot better with the other shot that has been mentioned to work well here: I high fade, and I've actually been pretty successful with the shot in my rounds at Kingsley.
This green can be pretty tricky. As Tim mentioned (or was it Mike?), putting off the green or failing to find the green with a chip in close proximity seems to be fairly common place. If you're unfortunate enough to have your ball hang up above the hole on the right in the short grass, the VERY difficult task of mearly keeping the ball on the green with your next shot lies ahead of you.
As with most at KC, this green complex has a plethora of options a golfer can use to get the ball near the hole from various positions (see Dave S's bunker post).
Pics from the website:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/16diagram.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/16c.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/16a.jpg)
The expanse of short grass around the green:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/16e.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/16f.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/16g.jpg)
This shot gives you an idea of the slope coming in from the right
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/16d.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/16b.jpg)
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I hope we didn't forget to finish this great thread !
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Coming soon. Given the other heated threads going on right now, I planned to wait until Kingsley made the Golf Digest top 100... ;)
but I guess I'll go ahead and finish.
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lol lol. Hey at least it's in good company , I heard some course named bally somin didn't make it either.
Looking forward to it .
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Hole #17 is a par 5
522 from the gold tee
476 from the blue tee
I can only imagine playing this course, not knowing anything about this hole, and walking up the fairway for the first time. It must be shocking for those that don't know what looms ahead. Even having seen pictures and having a decent sense for what awaited, I was blown away by the scale of the hole. We've talked about scale and proportion quite a bit throughout this thread, but this one must be seen in order to believe it. The immense 1st hole feels "small" in scale when compared to the 17th.
I'll leave it to Mike to comment on the actual dimensions, but I'll speculate with the following estimates - the fairway must be over 100 yards wide with the new clearing, the elevation change must be at least 50 - 75 feet, and the % grade at which the decline occurs is quite likely more severe than anything you've seen in a par 5 fairway. Think roller coaster - not like we casually throw the term around, but in the sense of a real roller coaster.
The tee shot encourages the golfer to swing free, but there is trouble to be found in the form of bunkers short and right on the fairway and also in the form of bunkers that guard what used to be the left side of the fairway but now sit squarely in the center of the widened fairway. From the tee, all the golfer can see is the end of elevated portion of the fairway and then some trees much further in the distance. The fairway appears to end in mid-air. For the big hitter, the drop-off is reachable from the blue tees, and for the bomber I am sure the cliff comes into play from the tips as well. For me, the mega-boost is out of play from the tips, and MIGHT come into play on my best drive out of 10 from the blue tees.
The fairway then drops rather quickly into a valley. I suspect many course designers would have used this elevation change to create the obligatory drop-shot par 3. As you run down the fairway (or roll down like a child if you so choose) and then look back up to the top of thse hill, you can't help but be pleased to find something so different spread across this glorious terrain. The fairway then swings back uphill (though not to the same elevation) to the green site.
The path to the green bottlenecks around 50 yards out. A bunker awaits on the left side well short of the green to capture stray attempts at making a run for the green in two. For those laying just short of this bunker, the half-wedge approach becomes a severely uphill shot to somewhat of a skyline green depending upon the position of your approach. There is also a series of greenside bunkers on the right and one in the back right requiring precision from any location. The green, like so many others on the course is interesting with plenty of good pin locations available.
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/17Tee.jpg)
A closer view from the tee. The fairway in view here is the "original" fairway. The fairway now extends about an equal amount left of the bunkers pictured at the left edge of this photo.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/17Tee2.jpg)
A view of the fairway from the top of the hill
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/17Fairway.jpg)
A view of the green and surrounds from above
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/17Approach.jpg)
Looking back up the fairway from down below
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/17FWLookback.jpg)
A closer view of the bunkers and green complex
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/17Approach2.jpg)
The angle where the green nearly transforms to a skyline (except for a few trees...) The half-wedge approach is mostly blind.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/17Approach3.jpg)
Looking back at this massive hole from the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/17Lookback.jpg)
One more from the rough behind the hole
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king17greenrear2.jpg)
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Tim,
Thanks for this great thread -- what a great discussion of the course and I really appreciate hearing all the comments. :)
As to the width of the fairway, I believe the new expanded 17th is about 65-70 yards wide at its widest, whereas the first's maintained cut is 110 yards wide with the bunkers in the middle of the drive. Maybe the 17th "feels" wider due to the relative narrowness of holes 15 and 16? The fairway on the 14th is 80 yards wide at the landing area over the bunkers and the maintained turf on hole 13 is 80 yards wide, with the fairway cut about 65 yards.
I think the drop in elevation from the landing area ridge down to the bottom of the valley is about 65 feet. (I am on the road and don't have a topo to check the data.)
Best,
Mike
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I am really surprised to hear that #17 is really that much more "narrow" than #1. I'm not sure how, but I wonder if the fact that the left half wasn't quite mown down to fairway length distorted the view. I would have bet money it was wider than you said, so thanks for saving me some cash!
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Tim,
sadly I have missed both Fairways a number of times. I actually have to construction pictures I feel some might really enjoy will post tomm. with a couple of old pictures of 17, it's amazing to really see the scale of the change first hand.
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Don't you love the flow of 15-17? Each of those holes just makes you want to head back to the tee and give it another shot. The drive on 17 is not as easy as the width makes it seem. The center bunkers and huge drop-off beyond didn't inspire a committed tee shot from me. I hope to get a chance to play from some more forward tees sometime to experience the "mega boost." It's still a lot of fun to hit the second shot down the valley as well.
I don't think 16 & 17 could use the land any better.
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I can't think of many 6 hole stretches I'd rather play over and over again than #12 through #17 at Kingsley.
I'd say it compares well to #4 through #9 at Pebble Beach in a less scenic, more raw and rugged, less appealing to the masses kind of way! 8)
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Prior to the changes, I always thought the 17th was the hole that least fit the feel of the Kingsley Club and had much more of the "typical" northern michigan course feel. This was almost exclusively caused by the tightness of the hole, which was pretty cramped by trees and thick foliage on both sides. It was the only hole on the course where you got that claustrophobic feeling which is so common on courses in northern MI and MI in general. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of exacting shots elsewhere on the course, but none that created the feeling which I felt on 17. In my few plays it tended to inflict tight and unconfident/uncomfortable swings (which was warranted and not an optical illusion), especially from the tee.
Needless to say, I REALLY like the opening up of the hole. I commented extensively on the topic on a prior thread produced specifically for this topic, so I won't talk about it too much more here. Bottom line, I think the changes make 17 fit in MUCH better with the flow and feel of the rest of the course. The transition back into the open holes of the the front nine and 10 & 18 works much better as well IMO: 16 was always pretty open, but then you hit 17 which was tight. Now the sequence of holes meld together so well...the flow is really a special acomplishment.
The topography of the hole is awesome; Mike used it wonderfully and I think the changes only enhance the characteristics of the land.
The green is really treacherous with its teirs and steep back to front slope which can feed balls all the way back down the hill if played too agressively from the rear of the green. I know I've said this for every hole, but the quality of the 17th green complex follows in the footsteps of the rest of the course: fantastic!
Here are some pics of the site pre changes; it's amazing how different the hole looks and will predictably play!
The two bunkers on left side of the fairway are now squarely in the middle of the fairway
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/17Diagram.jpg)
Once again, the two bunkers on the left are now right in the middle of the landing zone, what a difference from Tim's pics! (this pic is from the forward tees, it felt much tighter from the two other tees)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/17a.jpg)
Look how much more open the hole is now, especially behind the green!
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/17c.jpg)
This will now be in the middle/left of the fairway (notice how the tree clearing behind the green had taken place)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/17h.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/17d.jpg)
Many of the trees behind and around the green were removed
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/17f.jpg)
Compare this to Tim's picture! This picture does a very poor job of capturing the movement in the green; there is quite a bit!
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/17e.jpg)
One more from behind
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/17g.jpg)
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Here's the link to the thread with the changes to #17
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35373.0.html
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Prior to the changes, I always thought the 17th was the hole that least fit the feel of the Kingsley Club and had much more of the "typical" northern michigan course feel. This was almost exclusively caused by the tightness of the hole, which was pretty cramped by trees and thick foliage on both sides. It was the only hole on the course where you got that claustrophobic feeling which is so common on courses in northern MI and MI in general. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of exacting shots elsewhere on the course, but none that created the feeling which I felt on 17. In my few plays it tended to inflict tight and unconfident/uncomfortable swings (which was warranted and not an optical illusion), especially from the tee.
Good synopsis. I could never get comfortable on that tee, although I didn't feel so much that the hole was out of character with the rest of the course. My main issue with the hole was that the second shot doesn't really require much thought. There is no way I can get home in two playing appropriate tees and with the original presentation I just hit a shot that left me in the 100-150 yard range.
I will be interested to see how the widened version of the hole plays. The one change I haven't cared for on the course was the removal of the trees behind #17 green. The green was always in good shape but if there were shade issues for Dan Lucas then I could see why it was done. Everywhere else I feel like the tree removal improved an already great course.
The uphill nature of the approach shot without being able to see the green surface is when this hole gets interesting for me. You are cognizant of not wanting to leave your approach too short to a pin from the middle to the front, and have it roll back down, so you invariably end up above the hole and with the tiers and contours you have some work to do to make par.
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I am really surprised to hear that #17 is really that much more "narrow" than #1. I'm not sure how, but I wonder if the fact that the left half wasn't quite mown down to fairway length distorted the view. I would have bet money it was wider than you said, so thanks for saving me some cash!
Tim,
I was out at Kingsley with Dan Lucas today, looking at the fairway cut and bunker finishing for the left side of the fairway . . . and a correction is in order. From right to left, the right fairway is 40 yards wide at the landing area just short of the ridge, in line with the middle bunkers, then 20 yards of bunkers and rough, then 25 yards to the left bunker. If you go back a little closer to the tee, it is 38 yards of fairway, 20 yards of bunker/rough, then 40-45 yards of fairway, with a complete width of about 105-110 yards between the outer native rough areas. Short of the middle bunkers it is probably 85-90 yards of fairway -- I didn't pace that section.
Down the hill, it is 80-85 yards wide at the bottom and pinching in tighter as you get closer to the bunker short of the approach. I didn't pace the section just short of the bunker, probably about 50 yards wide.
Mike
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I am really surprised to hear that #17 is really that much more "narrow" than #1. I'm not sure how, but I wonder if the fact that the left half wasn't quite mown down to fairway length distorted the view. I would have bet money it was wider than you said, so thanks for saving me some cash!
Tim,
I was out at Kingsley with Dan Lucas today, looking at the fairway cut and bunker finishing for the left side of the fairway . . . and a correction is in order. From right to left, the right fairway is 40 yards wide at the landing area just short of the ridge, in line with the middle bunkers, then 20 yards of bunkers and rough, then 25 yards to the left bunker. If you go back a little closer to the tee, it is 38 yards of fairway, 20 yards of bunker/rough, then 40-45 yards of fairway, with a complete width of about 105-110 yards between the outer native rough areas. Short of the middle bunkers it is probably 85-90 yards of fairway -- I didn't pace that section.
Down the hill, it is 80-85 yards wide at the bottom and pinching in tighter as you get closer to the bunker short of the approach. I didn't pace the section just short of the bunker, probably about 50 yards wide.
Mike
How is the left side coming along? Is it all being cut to the same height now? It was getting close when we were there, but the left and the right were certainly distinguishable.
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I am really surprised to hear that #17 is really that much more "narrow" than #1. I'm not sure how, but I wonder if the fact that the left half wasn't quite mown down to fairway length distorted the view. I would have bet money it was wider than you said, so thanks for saving me some cash!
Tim,
I was out at Kingsley with Dan Lucas today, looking at the fairway cut and bunker finishing for the left side of the fairway . . . and a correction is in order. From right to left, the right fairway is 40 yards wide at the landing area just short of the ridge, in line with the middle bunkers, then 20 yards of bunkers and rough, then 25 yards to the left bunker. If you go back a little closer to the tee, it is 38 yards of fairway, 20 yards of bunker/rough, then 40-45 yards of fairway, with a complete width of about 105-110 yards between the outer native rough areas. Short of the middle bunkers it is probably 85-90 yards of fairway -- I didn't pace that section.
Down the hill, it is 80-85 yards wide at the bottom and pinching in tighter as you get closer to the bunker short of the approach. I didn't pace the section just short of the bunker, probably about 50 yards wide.
Mike
How is the left side coming along? Is it all being cut to the same height now? It was getting close when we were there, but the left and the right were certainly distinguishable.
Tim,
Yes, bringing down the fairway cut across the hole -- hence the reason for Dan and I to review the fairway lines and bunker edges.
Mike
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I'm already on record as being very skeptical of this change, because I feel the long ball hitter gains an enormous advantage with the change. Big boys can just swing for the fences and play it driver, 6-iron, though the approach from the left will still be a tougher angle.
Crafty experienced players like myself will still be stuck short of the bunkers, playing driver, mid-iron, wedge.
There's nothing wrong with a hole that greatly benefits the long player, but both #14 and #15 also do that.
I liked it the way it was before, so I'm counting on Mike DeVries to have made the right call here.
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I'm already on record as being very skeptical of this change, because I feel the long ball hitter gains an enormous advantage with the change. Big boys can just swing for the fences and play it driver, 6-iron, though the approach from the left will still be a tougher angle.
Crafty experienced players like myself will still be stuck short of the bunkers, playing driver, mid-iron, wedge.
There's nothing wrong with a hole that greatly benefits the long player, but both #14 and #15 also do that.
I liked it the way it was before, so I'm counting on Mike DeVries to have made the right call here.
John,
No problem with you being skeptical -- I appreciate your frankness and look forward to your thoughts on it as you play it more and more.
I don't think it will be a big advantage to the bigger hitters, particularly when all the tees, besides the back, are moved to the left and re-aligned with the expanded fairway. The angle from the back tee is narrower for the left side gap and there are bunkers looming over there, so it is not a gimme by any means -- in fact, I think the guys that were hitting it over from the back tee will still be doing so, but they still have to manage their game since it isn't the type of shot where they just bomb it over the top of the ridge (I have never witnessed a ball clearing the bunkers and hitting the downslope of the big hill (not saying it hasn't happened, just isn't common). If that becomes the standard for the big hitters, we also have the opportunity of easily adding another back tee about 25-30 yards behind and to the right of the current tee -- that has been available for when necessary and/or desired. By contrast, shifting the other tees to the left provides better separation with #16 and gives a better choice of the two sides to play for -- this was left out in the construction last year due to time constraints, cost, and impact to play areas. I am very excited about how this has turned out and it will be fun to see how people play it.
As to #14 and #15, I think 14 definitely is a big advantage for the big hitters, but it is not unreachable for average hitters to get there in two if they get it on the right hillside with a running trajectory that bounds the ball down further -- I am not a big hitter by any standard but have made it to the green (or pin high) on several occasions. Also, with the new back tee, the big boys will have to give a little more and the angle is not as receptive for where they are starting, so maybe that will alter it somewhat. On 15, it is really hard, no matter what, and a good recovery game around the green is the important issue. Certainly, if you can bomb it, it helps, but they also have a much narrower slot to hit to, as the balls over the ridge kick right and can be in or blocked by the trees -- at the Opening of the course, a friend in my foursome is long and he complained that he got blocked out by the trees, even though he was in the fairway and hit it 50+ yards past everyone else in the group! >:( Tough luck, Buddy -- next time shape the shot better or play down a club . . . I like it when they have to think a bit, instead of just killing the ball.
Cheers,
Mike
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Wait, I thought John Kirk IS a big hitter.
Really can't wait to the event in June. Looking forward to meeting you Mike and proving that not all Tennesseans are architectural suck-ups like my boy Tim.
Tim, fantastic thread in all seriousness. Thanks for your contribution.
Bogey
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Really can't wait to the event in June. Looking forward to meeting you Mike and proving that not all Tennesseans are architectural suck-ups like my boy Tim.
Bogey
Bogey - you are the anti-suck-up, so we balance each other well.
Wish I could be there in person to watch you try to manufacture artificial criticisms of the course like you did with another of my favorites in the Dunes near the Pacific!
The course is a blast and it is on the shortest of lists as one of my favorites - how's that for sucking up? ;)
I've been trying to convince my wife that Traverse City is a marvelous family vacation spot since my visit last year.
Have fun.
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#18 is a par four
422 from the gold tee
386 from the blue tee
The 18th hole is somewhat of a transition hole back from the woods to the open ground. The left side is tree-lined though the woods shouldn't really come into play. The right side has the wild rough that is found throughout the course, but no trees (I believe it was originally tree-lined on the right side as well.) As you get closer to the hole, it begins to clear up on the left side as well, bringing the golfer full circle on this excellent journey.
The fairway is extremely lumpy with plenty of rolls from tee to green. There are a number of spots where the difference between a blind shot to the green vs. a visible one is only a matter of yards. As one approaches the hole, the fairway begins to funnel in with a few bunkers tightening the approach.
The green is well protected, both by bunkers, grass, and movement in the green itself. There are bunkers guarding the front right and also the middle-to-back left section of the green. Given the length of the hole, the surrounding native grasses must certainly snag a wayward shot or two throughout the course of the day. Finally, the green begins with an upslope and goes up and over to somewhat of a bowl in the middle section. There is another up and over near the back. My impression was that the front and back both play a bit like a domed green, while the middle pin locations would likely be more accessible as some of the contours will funnel the ball toward the hole.
If this hole didn't happen on the tail end of the one of the wildest rides in golf, then it would probably be jaw-dropping. As it stands, it is a fitting finish to a wonderful day of golf - and a world class back nine in particular.
Kingsley has it all. I am envious of all of you that have the opportunity to join Mike and John this summer, and wish I could join you. This is a must-play, and once you play the course it quickly becomes a must-return. I've been hinting to my wife about family vacations in Traverse City since my trip last September.
Here's the view from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/18Tee.jpg)
From the right side of the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/18Fairway2.jpg)
Another view of the fairway, this one from the middle
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king18approach.jpg)
Here's the front view of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/18Green2.jpg)
A shot of the green with the middle left bunker looming. The first fairway is in the distance.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king18green.jpg)
Looking back on the green makes the approach appear even tighter than it feels
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/18Lookback.jpg)
Another one looking back on the hole - this one further removed from the green with the surrounds in full view
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/king18greenrear.jpg)
One last look at the green - this one from the 1st tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/18Green.jpg)
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I might be crazy, but I got about the same vibe with this green as I did with #13 at Tobacco Road. Little hills on the side with an opening in the middle. And tres dangerous!
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I might be crazy, but I got about the same vibe with this green as I did with #13 at Tobacco Road. Little hills on the side with an opening in the middle. And tres dangerous!
Jon,
I haven't played Tabacco Road, but from the pictures I've seen, it looks quite a bit more blind than Kingsley's 18th. If you manage to find the high right side of the fairway at KC, which is the harder side to find due to bunkers and the slope of the fairway, you're rewarded with a very clear and somewhat elevated look into the green. If you play defensive off the tee, your ball will most likely funnel down into the lower left bowl, and from there you will have a semi or completely blind approach into the green over the hill sloping in from the left (into a very tricky and slick green).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but #13 at Tobacco looked pretty blind from most areas in the fairway, but I can definitely see where you're coming from. Not to say that #13 at TR looks bad...I always thought it was one really cool looking hole that must be a blast to play!
- George
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I thought about it more last night, turns out they're pretty close!
Dont want to be short, dont want to be long, dont want to be left or right, and even hitting the green doesnt mean youre gonna see your ball!
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_3000.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/jheise29/IMG_3674.jpg)
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I don't find much similarity between #18 Kingsley and #13 Tobacco Road. The TR green sits perpendicular to the fairway and it quite shallow regardless of approach angle. At Kingsley the green sits on a 45 degree angle to the middle of the fairway.
The thing that I really don't like about #13 TR is that it is a par 5 and no mortal would even think about trying to hit a fairway wood into that shallow green from 200+ yards. Imagine hitting fairway wood into #12 at Augusta.
John Moore showed me the trick to #13, aim way right and BOMB it over the trees and leave yourself a 150 yard shot in. :o
#18 at Kingsley is a great finisher with the exception of most drives funneling down to the left side of the fairway due to the tilt of the fairway down to the left. The angle of the green with the surrounding mounds and green contours demand that you play an excellent shot to get around the hole. No scraping it up the fairway and expecting the ground to funnel your ball in to the hole, as it should be for the final hole IMO. A great finishing hole on a GREAT course.
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Tim - I just wanted to add my thanks for this super thread.
I was not familiar with Kingsley previously but am now absolutely charmed and intrigued by this layout.
Many thanks to you for the time and effort involved in pulling the journey together - and well done Mike DeVries - inspiring indeed.
Cheers -- Lyne
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The 18th at the Kingsley club is a great finisher to a fantastic course, especially since some of the tree clearing they have done behind 17 and between 10 and 18. Standing on the tee, it appears to be very difficult to keep the ball on the upper right side of the fairway, which gives you the best look at the green (if not the best angle). And that assumption prooves to be correct: with Kingsley's firm and fast running fairways it is really tough to keep a ball on the top tier. Probably the easiest way would be to lay back with a fairway wood or long iron, but then you have the difficult task of going at this green from further away.
If you do find the lower collecting area with your drive, you'll have a semi to completely blind second witha short iron over the hill flowing into the hole from the left. The movement in the 18th fairway is truley something to behold.
This green almost has two separate bowls in it, with a spine running perpendicular to play in the middle. It can create some very interesting shots whether you find the green with your second or not.
I really like how the hole looks now that the trees between 18 and 10 have been removed. We talked about the great transition from open field to more wooded land when we were on 10 and 11, and the same thing can be said again at 18. A new bunker complex has been added on the right hand side of the fairway since the trees have been taken out.
The 18th green finds its way back to the fantastic area near the clubhouse, which includes the 1st tees and fairway, 9 green, and 10 tees and fairway, all in plain view and quite a site to behold late in the evening when the sun is setting.
I'm sad to see this thread nearing its end just as it is bitter-sweet playing down the 18th knowing the round is coming to a close.
Some pictures from the website:
Diagram doesn't show fairway bunkers on right
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/18diagram.jpg)
this picture captures some of the movement in the 18th fairway, notice the trees are still present on the right
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/18b.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/18c.jpg)
with trees
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/18d.jpg)
without trees
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/18a.jpg)
shows green from left side looking across with 10th fairway in background
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/18e.jpg)
One more of the course routing to finish it up
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Kingsley%20Pics%20from%20website/Kingsleyrouting.jpg)
Thanks to all have contributed to this thread (Tim and Mike especially!!). I hope to see many of you at Kingsley Club this June for the GCA outing; it's a course everyone needs to see.
- George
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I haven't been to Tobacco Road, so I can't comment on the similarity of KC's 18th to TR's 13th.
The 18th plays down an undulating valley and across to or back up to a green set in an open amphitheater below the first tees and clubhouse setting. The landing area rolls dramatically in big waves and then sweeps down to the left valley but many balls stay on the upper part / right side. Choosing the high road on the right gets you above the green for the left front pins or to carry the big front bunker for pins in the bowl in the back. I think the valley on the left is a better angle to attack the back right pin positions, and you are looking up at the bowled landform more directly, taking the left bunker more out of play unless you pull it to that side. A big hitter who takes it down the middle / right middle will usually go over the last big roll and find a flat spot 90-100 yards from the green, but a slight push or fade may find the bunkers or gunch on the right while a pull may end up in an awkward lie in a mowed rough bowl on the left.
The left hillside is very tall and covered with trees, blocking any wind from a southerly direction, and it can be difficult to judge the effect on your ball as it gets past the trees and hill for the last 80-100 yards. The right hillside between 10 and 18 was originally treed and this really created a tunnel-like effect and re-emergence into the openness of the front nine but the fescue certainly didn’t like it and the transition and blending of the two nines is much better without them.
One of my favorite shots on the course is a low punched iron shot from the high right hillside into the approach, watching it catch the slope off the front left bank and turn into the green– truly a high feeling of satisfaction when pulled off at the end of a round!
The green is a true punchbowl, the third on the course along with the 4th and 5th holes, and relatively small in size at less than 4500 square feet and skinny, angled into the landform from front left to back right. The front section is domed with a kicker bank off the side of the bowl that goes up to the first tee. Then the surface sweeps down into a middle bowl with a shelf at the back center of the green. The right and back right sweeps up into the amphitheater that goes up to the clubhouse and there are frequently chairs or benches there with observers commenting on your play or match as it finishes up – great fun!
PS I missed your thread before sending mine, George. You and Ed mentioned that most drives end up down in the valley on the left and that is not my experience. I would say that at most 50% of the drives are there in a foursome -- in fact, I can't remember 3 out of 4 down there, although I do recall 1 on the right, 1 on the left hill before going over, and 2 in the valley. The pin position makes a big difference for me where to place the drive and I talked about the advantages above -- George and Tim are correct in that the view from the right (if you are on a crest and not in a trough) is down upon the green, although the back right of the bowl will be blocked by the front bunker and curve of the amphitheater.
PPS Many thanks to all for the great comments and discussion! I have really enjoyed it and look forward to all who are making the trek in late June.
Cheers!
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Let's also mention that the back left bunker gets lots of action. It's very tough to hold the left third of the green.
Co-founder and course chairman Edward Walker deserves a lot of credit. He is an excellent steward of this fine "little" golf club. Tip your hat to Ed when you see him.
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Let's also mention that the back left bunker gets lots of action. It's very tough to hold the left third of the green.
Co-founder and course chairman Edward Walker deserves a lot of credit. He is an excellent steward of this fine "little" golf club. Tip your hat to Ed when you see him.
John- I was re-reading the thread and I believe you owe us a couple things before this thread ends ;).
1)You were going to re-visit a big hitting opponent on #17.
2)There was also a discussion on the difficulty of Kingsley that you requested be put off until later.
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Let's also mention that the back left bunker gets lots of action. It's very tough to hold the left third of the green.
Co-founder and course chairman Edward Walker deserves a lot of credit. He is an excellent steward of this fine "little" golf club. Tip your hat to Ed when you see him.
John- I was re-reading the thread and I believe you owe us a couple things before this thread ends ;).
1)You were going to re-visit a big hitting opponent on #17.
2)There was also a discussion on the difficulty of Kingsley that you requested be put off until later.
Hi Buck,
I did mention my skepticism of the changes at #17 during that discussion.
Gee, should we complete the discussion by talking about the course difficulty. I think it is a hard golf course, but Mike Devries, plus some dual members at Crystal Downs and Kingsley say Crystal is 2-3 shots harder. Last year was the first year had sustained success playing Kingsley, where my scores were close to my handicap.
My lifetime average at Kingsley is about 79, but last year I was closer to 76. Maybe I'm getting the hang of it.
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Thanks John -
I look forward to reading your posts so was just trying to get a bit more from you.
In asking about the difficulty my thought was that after looking at 18 individual pieces it would be interesting to have some discussions about the 'whole' rather than trying to end on a less than positive note. After my initial couple rounds over several years I felt it was one of the hardest courses I had ever played, with a few more rounds and some understanding of the course I think it becomes much more playable and enjoyable. Danger still lurks and there are plenty of chances to make a big number but you can think your way around and often finish the round with the same ball you started with even as a 13 handicapper like me. I'm not sure you could ask for more than that.
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BUMP - less than a week until the Kingsley GCA get-together, time to review this thread again.
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The problem with this thread is that the recommendations on where to play your shots are entirely predicated on the assumption that one can control where they hit the ball.
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I'm bumping this thread because I've been thinking about KC and can't wait for this summer to go back.
Tim, awesome thread; Mike, awesome course; Dan, awesome turf.
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Bump 8)
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bump...
If anyone is on the fence of whether or not to take Brad up on his awesome offer, just take a spin through this thread :)
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I would love to, but alas its not in the cards again....so much golf to be played, so little time. ;D
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Just a quick comment -- how Kingsley fails to be rated among the top 50 courses in the USA boggles my mind.
Just proves how out to lunch so many people can be.
The greatness starts with the 1st tee shot and save for one or two holes on the back nine -- I'm not the biggest of fans for the 10th and 11th holes -- the place is just sensational in all ways possible.
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Just a quick comment -- how Kingsley fails to be rated among the top 50 courses in the USA boggles my mind.
Just proves how out to lunch so many people can be.
The greatness starts with the 1st tee shot and save for one or two holes on the back nine -- I'm not the biggest of fans for the 10th and 11th holes -- the place is just sensational in all ways possible.
That's funny, Matt, about 10 and 11. After the wild holes that are 6, 7, 8 and 9, I thought the relative tranquility of 10 and 11 came at the perfect time in the routing. Were 10 and 11 the first two holes, the Kingsley Club would not have anywhere near as dynamic a routing.
#10 from all the way back has to be a solid par 4, and #11 is an interesting green with all that left to right contour.
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Just a quick comment -- how Kingsley fails to be rated among the top 50 courses in the USA boggles my mind.
Just proves how out to lunch so many people can be.
The greatness starts with the 1st tee shot and save for one or two holes on the back nine -- I'm not the biggest of fans for the 10th and 11th holes -- the place is just sensational in all ways possible.
Would anyone be willing to go through the exercise of attempting to list 50 courses in the US that are better than Kingsley??
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Bill:
I can understand your point about the 10th and 11th - but they are not nearly in the same league as the others that one faces. No doubt few courses can ever be remotely bulletproof -- but the 10th and 11th are merely good holes for me.
I may even be convinced that Kingsley is a top 25 USA layout.
But, for sure, it's a top 50 in the USA -- how so many rating elements can be that far off truly mystifies me.
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Wow. Just wow. ;D
What a brilliant golf course that is. Hopefully someday I'll get the chance to tackle all the amazing par 5's, especially the 9th. :D
Pup
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I was fortunate to catch Kingsley in some favorable light over Labor Day weekend. Thought I'd add a few more of my favorites from the recent trip. With a return trip to Kingsley under my belt, I can confirm that it remains the most under-rated modern gold course in America. Oh, and Mike Hendren is dead wrong about the need for a punchbowl green on #15. ;D
Nothing beats a walk from the cabins to the 1st tee via the warm-up hole (also known as #18). Great morning shadows.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0823.jpg)
The view from the 1st tee never gets olds. The sun and clouds were cooperating.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0826.jpg)
Looking back on the 2nd green. For the record, I have completely flipped my opinion of the toughest par 3 on the front nine. I was in the #9 camp last time around. #2 becomes substantially harder when it is windy and you miss the green! I was two for two last time around.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0833.jpg)
#3 green. One of many greens where I walked off and said, "This has to be one of the best greens on the course."
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0915.jpg)
Looking back on nine, with just about all of the teeing options in view
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0919.jpg)
The 10th green. I paid a lot of attention to this hole this time around because I had the least recall of it the first time around. It is a strong par 4, and it is a varied and enjoyable test for me from the gold, blue, and white tees.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0875.jpg)
The 11th green. I didn't get a photo of this hole last time around that I liked as much as this one.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0878.jpg)
The 11th green was a great short par 3 from the 18th tee. With the left red pin, it is really tucked behind the bunker and the false front comes into play. It can be played under 100 yards with the full green in view or about 120-130 nearly blind to the green.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0914.jpg)
I never grow tired of the view looking back on #12 green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0881.jpg)
The split fairway on #17 is now fully functional. It feels like the fairway is angled such that the left side gives you a better chance to carry the roller coaster, but the right side is your best shot for optimal roll since the left side has some flat spots on the way down the hill. Bigger hitters should aim right, but the left was a good option for me and also a helpful recovery play when I found myself in the bunkers.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0911.jpg)
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Tim,
Thanks for your pictures. I am always amazed at the people who feel #10 is pedestrian. Although pictures flatten the movement, you can see undulation in the green in the picture you posted. Couple that with the importance to take the proper angle (and club) off the tee and I think it provides great fun and great options.
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Tim,
Thanks for your pictures. I am always amazed at the people who feel #10 is pedestrian. Although pictures flatten the movement, you can see undulation in the green in the picture you posted. Couple that with the importance to take the proper angle (and club) off the tee and I think it provides great fun and great options.
JC -
I think 10 is one of the most deceptive driving holes on the course. Like 12, I'd venture a lot of people miss this fairway to the right. The fairway is not that narrow, yet too many try to challenge the bunkers on the right.
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JC,
The day I hit anything other than driver off 10 it will be a cold day in hell. Unless of course I'm just trying to get in your head during our grudge match. ;D By the way, it must be an oversight but there's only one Michigan football team ranked in the new AP top 25, and they don't hail from East Lansing.... ;)
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The course looks great was it playing Firm and fast?
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Mike,
It always plays firm and fast given the massive amount of sand the course sits on, the fescue fairways and the unparalelled course crew, but it rained a fair bit so the greens weren't quite up to speed.
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I asked because I visited in July and it was fairly wet then although it still played firmer and faster then most couses I have played this summer. I was curious if it had dried out at all since then. Also your your pictures looked really green you can even see the mowing pattern on some photos.
Nice picture by the way.
mike
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JC,
The day I hit anything other than driver off 10 it will be a cold day in hell. Unless of course I'm just trying to get in your head during our grudge match. ;D By the way, it must be an oversight but there's only one Michigan football team ranked in the new AP top 25, and they don't hail from East Lansing.... ;)
I'll play the hole with 3 wedges and 1 putt.
I look forward to October 9, you hash smoking, Krazy Jim's eating, Patchouli smelling wannabe hippie.
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Hey, say what you will, but don't bring Krazy Jim's into it....
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JC,
The day I hit anything other than driver off 10 it will be a cold day in hell. Unless of course I'm just trying to get in your head during our grudge match. ;D By the way, it must be an oversight but there's only one Michigan football team ranked in the new AP top 25, and they don't hail from East Lansing.... ;)
I'll play the hole with 3 wedges and 1 putt.
I look forward to October 9, you hash smoking, Krazy Jim's eating, Patchouli smelling wannabe hippie.
You are fortunate that one-club is traditionally played on the front nine at Kingsley. Otherwise, I think you'd struggle to make your par putt.
PS - Everyone knows that the 4-iron hybrid, not the wedge, is the proper club selection for one-club at Kingsley.
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JC,
The day I hit anything other than driver off 10 it will be a cold day in hell. Unless of course I'm just trying to get in your head during our grudge match. ;D By the way, it must be an oversight but there's only one Michigan football team ranked in the new AP top 25, and they don't hail from East Lansing.... ;)
I'll play the hole with 3 wedges and 1 putt.
I look forward to October 9, you hash smoking, Krazy Jim's eating, Patchouli smelling wannabe hippie.
You are fortunate that one-club is traditionally played on the front nine at Kingsley. Otherwise, I think you'd struggle to make your par putt.
PS - Everyone knows that the 4-iron hybrid, not the wedge, is the proper club selection for one-club at Kingsley.
I would LOVE to play a one-club match at Kinglsey.
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Hey, say what you will, but don't bring Krazy Jim's into it....
I will admit, I do love it.
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By the way, great new website for the Kingsley Club.
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Thanks for the photos, Tim.
That look from the first tee is one of my favorites anywhere.
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Looks like another course where the Supt has to be careful about green speeds. Is there a maximum reasonable speed here?
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Carl -- The greens normally run around 10, which I think is perfect for everyday use given the slopes and countours. At higher speeds, approach shot landing areas require more thought, as the best landing spot to hold a green isn't always on said green, and putting off the green becomes a very real possibility on several holes. But I still find them very playable.
Tim -- I disagree with you entirely; the correct choice for one-club on that course is clearly a 7-iron. But I will concede that the 4-hybrid sand shot has me rethinking my full set composition...
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Carl -- The greens normally run around 10, which I think is perfect for everyday use given the slopes and countours. At higher speeds, approach shot landing areas require more thought, as the best landing spot to hold a green isn't always on said green, and putting off the green becomes a very real possibility on several holes. But I still find them very playable.
Tim -- I disagree with you entirely; the correct choice for one-club on that course is clearly a 7-iron. But I will concede that the 4-hybrid sand shot has me rethinking my full set composition...
Andrew:
The cross-handed backwards hybrid sand shot is mandatory from the back bunker on 7. Its really the only way to hold the green.
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I'm bumping this thread because I've been thinking about KC and can't wait for this summer to go back.
Tim, awesome thread; Mike, awesome course; Dan, awesome turf.
If it is January, I'm thinking about the Kingsley Club. Hell, if it is any month, I'm thinking about the Kingsley Club.
The more great courses I am fortunate enough to play, the more I recognize and see the greatness of Kingsley Club.
So here it is again, my annual bump of this phenomenal thread.
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If it is January, I'm thinking about the Kingsley Club. Hell, if it is any month, I'm thinking about the Kingsley Club.
The more great courses I am fortunate enough to play, the more I recognize and see the greatness of Kingsley Club.
So here it is again, my annual bump of this phenomenal thread. - JC
JC,
It's 25 degrees colder here in Minneapolis than it is in Charlotte, so I'm really thinking about it!
Good call. This is definitely one of my favorite threads...
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I'm bumping this thread because I've been thinking about KC and can't wait for this summer to go back.
Tim, awesome thread; Mike, awesome course; Dan, awesome turf.
If it is January, I'm thinking about the Kingsley Club. Hell, if it is any month, I'm thinking about the Kingsley Club.
The more great courses I am fortunate enough to play, the more I recognize and see the greatness of Kingsley Club.
So here it is again, my annual bump of this phenomenal thread.
Funny you should bump this thread as I was reading through it this very afternoon (slow day at the office). I got through #10; can't wait for the rest of the back nine (even though I've read the thread 2-3 times before).
Maybe I should move back to Traverse....
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Finished the back nine and, yup, Kingsley nostalgia has fully kicked in...
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Too many johnny-come-lately GCA guys at Kingsley now, gotta find something more off the radar..... ;D
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How about a few more bonus photos to start the new year? I suspect there may be some additions throughout the year, and the tail end of this thread may become my personal shared photo album. I hope to feature a sunrise / sunset series once I have a chance to tote something a little nicer than my point-and-shoot around the course during some non-golf time.
The approach to the 1st
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0829.jpg)
Just in front of the 3rd green. Don't miss left!
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0836.jpg)
Can't get enough of the 8th
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0863.jpg)
A different look than I've shared of the wild 13th green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0887.jpg)
For those not as familiar with the course, see if you can figure out what hole this is - hint: it isn't taken from the intended line of play
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/kingsley/IMG_0830.jpg)
Also, I may have posted this earlier on the thread, but for anyone that prefers the "moving photo" slideshow tour version, feel free to check out this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwksDnCa504
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7th from short right?
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7th from short right?
Very good, though I would characterize it as WAYYYYYY right. I might not have had an issue with your participation if we hadn't played the long par three to this green from this approximate angle.
What part of "those not as familiar with the course" did you not understand?!? ;)
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I'm going to guess #14.
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7th from short right?
Very good, though I would characterize it as WAYYYYYY right. I might not have had an issue with your participation if we hadn't played the long par three to this green from this approximate angle.
What part of "those not as familiar with the course" did you not understand?!? ;)
Oh, I thought you meant those not as familiar with the course as you.
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I would say you are about as familiar with the course as I am. You are certainly as familiar with how to appropriately play 3-man, 1-club modified alternate shot there.
It's ok, I don't think there were a bunch of people lining up to play although Morgan did take a shot at it as well.
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I would say you are about as familiar with the course as I am. You are certainly as familiar with how to appropriately play 3-man, 1-club modified alternate shot there.
It's ok, I don't think there were a bunch of people lining up to play although Morgan did take a shot at it as well.
Only reason I recognized it is because my tee shot on the "par 3" took a precarious line directly into the trees on the right in the picture, from whence it was never to be seen again.
And if your statement about the appropriate way to play 3M1CMAS was a question, the answer is, of course, with a throw.
As an aside, I can't think of many courses on this side of the pond that are better suited for cross-country golf. I still want to try the Par-TBD hole from the 4th Tee to the 18th Green.
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I would say you are about as familiar with the course as I am. You are certainly as familiar with how to appropriately play 3-man, 1-club modified alternate shot there.
It's ok, I don't think there were a bunch of people lining up to play although Morgan did take a shot at it as well.
I'm not playing b/c the first guy to guess nailed it! Way to go Sven!
I thought the green looked like #7, but the bunker really through me off. It didn't look like the fronting bunker (at least not from the normal line of play). Plus, those pines make you think back nine.
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And if your statement about the appropriate way to play 3M1CMAS was a question, the answer is, of course, with a throw.
Ahhh, yes. But not just any throw. An overhand, forward throw. I think team Europe(an sounding names) could teach a clinic on 3M1CMAS.
It is unfair to revive discussions of Kingsley when it is covered in snow...
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When it is covered in snow is the best time to revive discussions. When it isn't covered in snow, you play the course!
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And if your statement about the appropriate way to play 3M1CMAS was a question, the answer is, of course, with a throw.
Ahhh, yes. But not just any throw. An overhand, forward throw. I think team Europe(an sounding names) could teach a clinic on 3M1CMAS.
It is unfair to revive discussions of Kingsley when it is covered in snow...
So that was two teams of three with two clubs cross country.
Let me think......was alcohol involved?
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And if your statement about the appropriate way to play 3M1CMAS was a question, the answer is, of course, with a throw.
Ahhh, yes. But not just any throw. An overhand, forward throw. I think team Europe(an sounding names) could teach a clinic on 3M1CMAS.
It is unfair to revive discussions of Kingsley when it is covered in snow...
So that was two teams of three with two clubs cross country.
Let me think......was alcohol involved?
Bill - you are slightly confused, which is understandable. Cross country was a different event entirely than three man, one club, modified alternate shot!
I can vouch that at least one participant wasn't influenced by alcohol, which probably makes it worse.
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8) participants, Classic DUI..
the course.. pure michigan
summer spent up there, priceless
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So that's why everyone's so keen to walk. You can get a DUI fro driving a cart under the influence...
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Sven -- It would play as a par 7 for all but the longest hitter. The blind approach shot from the area in front of the big hill in 1 fairway would be around 150, or closer to 170 yards if one elected to go right of the hill...not that anybody has ever tried either of those shots.
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Bump - in honor of Tim's blog.
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I just got to spend the weekend at the Kingsley Club and played the course for the first time. I hadn't seen this thread before but read all the way through when I got home and wanted to post my thoughts on the course.
We had a little rain each day that made the course play softer than it normally does but the ball was still rolling some in the fairways. The greens were holding much better than they normally (at least that was my impression).
The course was simply fantastic! You never wanted to stop playing each day. While the two nines had distinct characters they felt connected. I think this was because of the alterations and tree removal on 10 and 18, 14 and 15, and 17. That seems to have really brought the nines together as the older pictures I saw with the trees just didn't look right. The routing was spectacular. I particularly liked being on the second hole and having all of the action around you. That would be great fun in a club tournament. The back nine routing had tremendous flow and pacing. I thought the score had plenty of opportunities for scoring and wasn't overly difficult as others have thought. Of course, I probably played it in the easiest conditions possible (see above) even though we had some wind.
Someone asked how they would split rounds with Ballyneal and Kingsley. I would go 6-4 with the edge to Ballyneal because I think Ballyneal has just a little more variety and a few more options for changing the nature of the holes based on what "tee" you play from. Although Kingsley had some fun par 3s we made up. Unfortunately we didn't get to play the reverse routing devised by Andrew Lewis that may have swayed me to 5-5 on the round split.
The front nine has some stand out holes. In fact, many of the individual holes may be superior to the individual holes on the back nine. However, I liked the back nine better because of the pacing of the holes. I didn't sense as much difference in difficulty between holes as I did on the back nine, which hard more half par holes. My favorite stretch on the course, which was just sublime, was 13-16 and I could almost through in 11, 12, and 17 as well.
Here are my quick thoughts on each hole.
1 - Great opening par 5. No real way for to reach the green in 2 or even just bomb 3 wood on the second shot, which is a rarity any more. Great second shot that makes you carefully decided to lay up or challenge the pinched fairway at the 100 yard mark and makes it hard (almost impossible) to get that perfect sand wedge distance. The third shot is way more uphill than you think.
2 - Fantastic short par 3. Doak wasn't fan because there weren't bailt out areas. I saw two - the back bunker long and hit a sand wedge or little pitching wedge in the rough about 25 yards short of the green. From either spot you should be able to get the next on the green and make four. But who wants to bailout on such a short par 3, which is the genius of the hole. Any slight miscue gets severely punished. I would think this could rack up the most others of any hole on the course.
3 - Great driving hole. One day I played from the right wing of the golf tee on #5. That was a really interesting drive. Next time I will play from the white tee on #5 making it a real cape hole.
4 - After the first time through this hole seemed a lot easier. I found the play to be down the left as it shortened the hole and left a manageable wedge shot even though it was partially blind. Really good green site and I loved that the middle ridge was big enough to put pins on.
5 - Nice punchbowl green site. Any of my shots that found the green always seemed to find the same spot no matter the club or how I hit them, which detracts from the hole a little. Might need some more plays to figure out to get to other parts of the green.
6 - Similar to 4 in that the drive got easier after the first time through. Really like how the green is benched into the hill. It is either really hard to judge the distance of the second shot (as mentioned in the thread) or I was really afraid of going long and left as I was always short of the flag. A back left flag would have some serious pucker factor.
7 - Despite birdieing it the first three times I played it, this was my least favorite hole on the course. Lay up off the tee. Lay up on the second shot. Wedge it on the green. Not very exciting. The slopes are just too severe to challenge with the driver (I did once from the blue tees but have no chance to do so from the gold) and the reward isn't that great as you end up in the bowl just past the left trees. That's a very difficult shot if going for the green in two.
8 - Good hole. The green looks like it would be really tough to hit to if they were their normal firmness.
9 - I found this hole much easier than 2 although I didn't like it nearly as much. Mayhugh and I even played it from next to fairway bunker on #8, which was about a 5 iron to the far left pin. Cool shot with a totally different perspective since it was up hill.
7-9 was probably my least favorite stretch of the course. That doesn't mean they were bad holes though.
10 - Totally different looks from the blue and gold tees. Really like this green site and the options on how to play your second shot into the green. Next time I will tee off from the driving range, which makes the hole a little longer, plays more uphill, and again changes the angle.
11 - I thought this a subtly brilliant par 3. The front bunker guards that part of the green nicely but you have the small kicker slope on the left. The back tier would be quite frightening to play too from the back tees. The false side on the right gathers many more shots than you think it would. I can see why some think it's a breather hole, but it could bite you if you aren'y careful.
12 - First time through I didn't think there was much to this hole. Each time through I appreciated the green more and more. I could never get the tee shot quite right as four out of the six times I hit it on the hill to the right.
13 - Favorite hole on the course. An drivable par 4 that actually have a chance to drive it on. I did the first day from the right blue tee with a three wood. I didn't carry a scorecard so the first time through I was trying to figure out if it was a par 3 or par 4. Every time I played this hole I wanted to run back to the tee and play it again. We asked the super for a back left pin after the first day. He obliged with two holes on the green for the rest of the weekend - one on the back for us and another hole for everyone else. We couldn't get enough of playing to the back left flag and trying to figure out how to make par.
14 - Great fun standing on the back tee and trying to just blast it over the bunkers. You can really let it rip on this hole. Loved the green site and how you could run it on the green in two up the right, which brought the bunkers in play, but if you go slightly left you catch the slope and are left with an awkward third. But there are lots of green contours you can use to get the ball close from left of the green.
15 - Earlier comments said good players often don't like this hole. As a good player all I can say is what a bunch of pusses. I loved this hole. The knob in the left side of the fairway really messes with you. Don't challenge it enough and you be playing a fade on your second. Go a little too far left and you have a tough second from the rough. The last time we played the hole from the blue. I hit a great drive that gave me a straight shot at a back left flag with a 4 iron. I pured the 4 iron but it drew just a yard or two too much and bounded into the back left bunker. I hit a great bunker shot to 10 feet. Missed the putt and made 5. I hit what I thought were three perfect shots and didn't make a par. Has to be the hardest hole on the course.
16 - I can't think of anything more fun than playing your shot out to the right and watching your ball bound left, disappear, and reappear on the green. One day from the back tees I aimed just inside of the trees on the right and ended up on the left side of the green. The last round from the blue I was trying to play a low drawing 5 iron. The line was good but I got a little too much of the low part as I hit it thin and the ball didn't get much more more than 5-10 feet off the ground. When my ball cleared the hump short of the green and I saw it running to the middle left flag I said don't go in (can't have that as my first hole in one). My ball stopped a half inch short of the hole. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.
17 - Great fun. I was only able to get it over the hill one time since we were usually into the wind. My best shot of the weekend came on this hole. I smashed a drive from the gold tee. The ball was about 10 yards of going over the hill on a slight upslope in the right fairway. I had close to 280 into a slight breeze. I hit the best 3 wood of my life that was just a towering shot. Landed on the green, rolled about 3 feet and came to rest 20 feet from the hole. Unfortunately the putt was the saddest attempt at eagle ever. It will be impossible for me to get it over the hill from the new gold tee I think.
18 - Good transition back to the openness of the front nine. Another fund punchbowl green site.
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Could we get a little info on Andrew's reverse routing? I'm having a hard time visualizing it!
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Steve,
Glad that you enjoyed yourself. IMO you need to come back and play 8&9 in firmer conditions. 8 is one of my favorites. Wonder what you think is lacking here. Does it take driver out your hands? I can assure you that the approach in firm conditions has quite a bit of pucker factor. As does 9 under any conditions.... :)
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Steve, by Tuesday morning, the course had firmed up quite a bit more than the early part of the weekend, and in our last round, I got "Kingsleyed" a number of times. The most dramatic came on #11. The pin was cut on the upper tier, and my ball landed just below the flag about 10-12 feet, pretty close to the middle of the green. We sat and watched as it rolled all the way down into the bowl on the right, leaving a 30-40 yard chip, which of course rolled back again. Though after about 160 holes in 4+ days at that point, I was probably wearing down a bit.
I was asked a number of times about my favorite hole, or my favorite nine, and it's just so hard to choose. Every time I thought about my favorite stretch of holes, it seemed so unfair to leave out the holes before, or the holes after. I think my favorite hole is #2. From the left tees, you don't see the full size of the green (which is pretty small to begin with) as it sits around eye level, with whisping grass in between. For me, the anxiety one feels after hitting the tee shot is unmatched anywhere, followed by either the relief of landing (and staying!) on the green, or the anguish of finding the trouble. Just a wonderfully fun hole to play.
With regard to #4, the swale on the right side of the fairway, leaving a blind approach, felt like a second home after a couple days. That will happen when you play from there eight out of ten rounds. The bright side is that I now know exactly which tree to line up to without having to walk up the slope to get a look at the green. And as you mention alternate tees, don't forget playing six from the blue tees on #2. Really opens up the look of the tee shot and makes the hole a little easier. I think DeVries got it right with where he set the traditional tee boxes on #6.
I posted my thoughts on #13 on another thread, but that back pin was just too much fun. Probably the first time I've made bogey on a par four after hitting it into three different greenside bunkers, finally getting up and down from arguably the toughest one. On Monday afternoon, I was looking at about a 20 footer for birdie to that pin from the fringe just above the left bunker. I walked to the green with both putter and sand wedge in hand. I had no intention of playing that shot with a wedge, but the odds of rolling my putt over the green into the back bunker were too high, and I didn't want to walk back to my bag to grab the wedge.
This was my first visit to Kingsley, and I though the whole facility was phenomenal. How fun is it to stay on the property, play down #18 as a warm up hole in the morning, and back up #10 at night? Unassuming clubhouse, friendly staff, and don't even get me started on the fire pit. ;D
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Steve,
Kingsley must be quite good for you to go 6-4 or even 5-5 with Ballyneal, as I know how much you love Ballyneal. What did you shoot during your time there?
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Kingsley is really, really good. I had no idea how good as didn't really look at anything about the course ahead of time. I would be equally happy playing at both clubs for the rest of my life.
First round we played the blues and I shot 73. Second round was from the golds and I shot 71. Third round was from as far back as you could play it on every hole (almost one in the rough) and I shot 69. The next two were around 80. I lost interest in those rounds early, stopped keeping score and focused on the architecture. The last round was from the blues and I shot 72. All of those rounds could have been substantially better as I was hitting it really close to the hole and made nothing the whole time.
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Glad you guys had a good time.
Steve - It is remarkable how you and I share the same opinion about the course in total but some of the details are exactly the opposite. For example, I always tell people I prefer the front nine to the back nine as a whole but that I think some of the best individual holes on the course are on the back nine. Almost word for word opposite from you. Seven is probably my favorite par 5 on the course (well except for 1 and 14!!) and 8 might be my favorite par 4. 3-8 is probably my favorite stretch with 12-16 not far behind.
Wish you had seen it a bit firmer. Would have been fun to see if it would have cost you a couple of strokes in the gold vs red match. Some fire pit conversation for next time.
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My favorite stretch is 1-17...don't remember much about 18 but that might have something to do with my pre-shot routine on that teebox...
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My favorite stretch is 1-17...don't remember much about 18 but that might have something to do with my pre-shot routine on that teebox...
If that routine involved a certain mailbox, then I, as a regular visitor to said mailbox, can understand. ;D. Each subsequent visit went down smoother and smoother.
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Glad you guys had a good time.
Steve - It is remarkable how you and I share the same opinion about the course in total but some of the details are exactly the opposite. For example, I always tell people I prefer the front nine to the back nine as a whole but that I think some of the best individual holes on the course are on the back nine. Almost word for word opposite from you. Seven is probably my favorite par 5 on the course (well except for 1 and 14!!) and 8 might be my favorite par 4. 3-8 is probably my favorite stretch with 12-16 not far behind.
Wish you had seen it a bit firmer. Would have been fun to see if it would have cost you a couple of strokes in the gold vs red match. Some fire pit conversation for next time.
It must be because you are left handed and I am right handed. :)
I think our opinions are different on 7 because our games are different. You are interacting with the challenges of the hole in completely different way than I am. I think the tee shot on 7 would be more interesting if you had the chance to clear the hill on the right to get home in two or if there was some fairway to the left behind the trees at a higher elevation that gave you a view of the green. Then I might be tempted to hit driver past those trees, which could lead to a bad lie in the trees.with the fairways running the tee shot isn't much more than a hybrid off the tee. Another alternative would be to move the gold tee back and to left. The tee wuld be lower and on an angle that a straight shot would leave you directly behind the mound on the right with a totally blind shot but a draw with a driver would get you further down the hole with a slightly better view and angle to lay up. One of the rounds from the blue tees I hit hybrid off the tee and tried to hit 3 wood to the green from aroind 260. There's something not quite right to me on a par 5 when I hit a shorter club from the tee than I do in going for the green.
I am hopong I will see the course next year in its usual firm and fast condition.
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Don't want to take anything away from the Dismal Lovefest, but the colors at Kingsley this weekend were simply too good not to pass a few pix along to help get you through those long winter nights...
(http://i55.tinypic.com/9prv5z.jpg)
(http://i53.tinypic.com/b96lc7.jpg)
(http://i56.tinypic.com/icnviw.jpg)
(http://i55.tinypic.com/14mcgon.jpg)
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2e1c6c3.jpg)
(http://i55.tinypic.com/ele35j.jpg)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2ij3u3p.jpg)
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2ldz5c.jpg)
(http://i52.tinypic.com/1y1tp4.jpg)
(http://i51.tinypic.com/2yxi62b.jpg)
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Jud,
Thanks for posting - the photos are amazing and makes wish I could drop everything and make the drive right now.
We were up there two weeks ago for three days and noticed a pretty significant movement in color over that time period - but it looked nothing like the photos you posted...what a special place.
Chris.
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Jud -
Looks like a perfect "peak colors" day.
Thanks for posting.
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Jud,
Those pictures are phenomenal. It's amazing how much more color there is than just one week ago.
However, your pictures left out the one downside to fall golf...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/KingsleyClub-1frost.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/KingsleyClub-10frost.jpg)
FROST!
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Jud,
Thanks for sharing the superb photos. Look forward to your Kingsley coffee table book.
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Mike - how much tree clearing did you have to do on the back nine??
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Kingsley Spring Update...
Look from the new back tee on 17. Let's see you Chuckleheads clear the hill from here... ;D
(http://i42.tinypic.com/e7mlqf.jpg)
a bit of tree clearing to the left of 7 for the whiners who can't hit driver from the tips
(http://i40.tinypic.com/6zmp7q.jpg)
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Awesome. Thanks, Jud. It's amazing seeing pics of golf courses looking so prime time in northern Michigan this early. Enjoy!
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A thread I never tire of...
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Kingsley Spring Update...
a bit of tree clearing to the left of 7 for the whiners who can't hit driver from the tips
Jud - how many trees did it look like they took out??
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Kingsley Spring Update...
a bit of tree clearing to the left of 7 for the whiners who can't hit driver from the tips
Jud - how many trees did it look like they took out??
George,
2. The one you see nearest the fairway and one in the back right of the picture towards the bunker. At least as of last week.
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Those 2 were trees that blew down last year. We just got the stumps ground this spring.
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Kingsley Spring Update...
Look from the new back tee on 17. Let's see you Chuckleheads clear the hill from here... ;D
(http://i42.tinypic.com/e7mlqf.jpg)
a bit of tree clearing to the left of 7 for the whiners who can't hit driver from the tips
(http://i40.tinypic.com/6zmp7q.jpg)
Insane there is green on those treetops. I was lucky enough to be back in southern Michigan during the spell of 80 degree temps, and trees were flowering and even shooting new leaves--a full 6-8 weeks ahead of normal. It was far better weather than both California and tropical China.
Dan,
I see 1 with mature native and 10 with it mowed down. What is your schedule on cutting it down, and are you doing anything else to keep it thin and playable with burning, spray, or otherwise? The native is a bit thicker and difficult on playability, but it is among the more beautiful and colorful/textural stands you will find anywhere. The balance is always the hard part. Hope I can get up there during playing season sometime again soon.
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Those 2 were trees that blew down last year. We just got the stumps ground this spring.
Dan, thanks. There goes my Aloha Press on 7 tee.... ;)
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Man I love that place. Just came across this thread again and it quickly reminded me of my one round there this past fall. The course absolutely sparks your imagination and you see all kinds of different shots to play and ways to play holes. Would love to spend a weekend there for 36-36 and stay on property to really soak it all in. If I was up north more often (Ann Arbor here), I'd have a hard time not trying to join this place.
Its just what golf is supposed to be to me, w/o the frills and pagentry of many of the more recognized names....just perfect. I've played just about all of the great courses in MI and for golf alone, its top 3 for me all day.
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Jud
Sorry to blow your scoop. ;D
Brett
We mow it down in the fall and spot spray herbicide in spring.
Hope to see you up here soon.
Dan
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Some pictures from this weekend, posted on Jackson Chen's behalf:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/affsjd.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/1hwk2b.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/1erl2u.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/23rwd4z.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/1zqx0kx.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/35cpq51.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/hugd48.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/14bt6gy.jpg)
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Jud, thanks for the photos...
What happened to the wooden flagsticks?
Are those the new permanent ones or do they use those early in the season perhaps because of the weather?
I hope we haven't gone away from the wooden ones permanently...
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Jud:
Did they mow the hill on 17 in the center? I recall that there was long grass in the center of the hill behind the bunker so that simply carrying the hill was not the only objective.
Bart
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Bart,
No I don't think they did. That photo is probably from the right side and the perspective is slightly skewed.
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Are they taking the rough line in or out on the right side of the layup landing area on #17?
Course looks phenomenal, as usual. Thanks for the pics!
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I didn't really notice much of a change George, probably down to early season mowing patterns, but Dan would be the man to know...
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Some pictures from this weekend, posted on Jackson Chen's behalf:
Which holes are pictured?
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7, 2, 4, 16, 3, 17, 16, 18
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7, 2, 4, 16, 3, 17, 16, 18
Thanks, Andrew.
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Some pictures from this weekend, posted on Jackson Chen's behalf:
Jud, thanks for posting the photos for me.
What a present - to play golf in Michigan in early April! Such a great course and experience.
Four random takeaways about the course for me:
A) #9, very difficult not to overclub on this hole. I been told multiple times the miss is short, but really the mind and senses tell you NOT to be short. So I blew it over nearly every time. Did Mike DeVries design this hole understanding this? If so, kudos to Mike.
B) #2, simply love the hole. Yes, it is severe but all the bunkers/trouble make it interesting to me. Trouble doesn't have to mean death. You are simply challenged to make a precise recovery shot. To me that is fun. Flop/chip from 15 feet under the hole to a 10 foot circle. Then make a 10 foot putt for par. That is a great and rewarding challenge.
C) #2, again. The Championship tees (Gold) although further from the hole is a much easier/less intimidating shot. It looks right down the throat of the hole. The Members tees (Blue) is tough. Postage stamp green with a bunker in the direct line and a prevailing cross wind.
D) #16, tricky Mike DeVries. Cannot land the ball middle left unless you stick it pin high. Short of the pin and it rolls left into the bunker 10 feet below the hole. This lesson I can quickly learn.
Hope everyone going up the remainder of the Spring and this Summer has a blast.
It is so much fun and so special.
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Man, the early maintenance meld looks absolutely tantalizing at Kingsley Club during this freak early season. I wonder if the greens are anything like ours here on the same latitude across lake Michigan. We are at mid summer lightening speed, and with very drying wind and little if any water applied after they only just recharged the system, the place is playing firm and fast as any time else you will find it except fall when water is shut down. This is a rare treat that must be all the more rare and wonderful at a great course like KC.
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Chris
The wooden flagsticks just arrived from re-finishing. We got the fiberglass ones to use early and late season to extend the life of the wood.
Mowing lines on #17 are a big change this year. We are allowing most of the left fairway to revert to native. Re-focusing on the old (right) fairway. Putting more emphasis on execution on the tee shot. The center bunker complex will now (again) be the left side. Second shot landing area shifting slightly right, adding area on the right and taking away on the left.
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Chris
The wooden flagsticks just arrived from re-finishing. We got the fiberglass ones to use early and late season to extend the life of the wood.
Mowing lines on #17 are a big change this year. We are allowing most of the left fairway to revert to native. Re-focusing on the old (right) fairway. Putting more emphasis on execution on the tee shot. The center bunker complex will now (again) be the left side. Second shot landing area shifting slightly right, adding area on the right and taking away on the left.
Thanks Dan! I am glad to hear about the flagsticks it is just one of the little details I love about the club!
17 should be really interesting with the changes along with the new back tee - how long do you think it will take for the fairway to revert back to native grass and look the other native sections of the course?
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Mowing lines on #17 are a big change this year. We are allowing most of the left fairway to revert to native. Re-focusing on the old (right) fairway. Putting more emphasis on execution on the tee shot. The center bunker complex will now (again) be the left side. Second shot landing area shifting slightly right, adding area on the right and taking away on the left.
NOOOOOoooooo!!! :'(
This slicing lefties game just got worse. How about a little more room on the left side? ;)
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Chris
It will probably be next season before it really looks like the rest of the native, though it will play tougher than the mowed rough by June or so. We will do a little overseeding of hard and sheep fescue to introduce some grass that hasn't been trained to grow at 1/2".
Tim
We will all have some adjustments to make. As a guy who can feature the push-fade and snap hook on consecutive swings I have no sympathy for you. 8)
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Chris
The wooden flagsticks just arrived from re-finishing. We got the fiberglass ones to use early and late season to extend the life of the wood.
Mowing lines on #17 are a big change this year. We are allowing most of the left fairway to revert to native. Re-focusing on the old (right) fairway. Putting more emphasis on execution on the tee shot. The center bunker complex will now (again) be the left side. Second shot landing area shifting slightly right, adding area on the right and taking away on the left.
Pinching in the left side of the fairway is a direct shot over my bow! I know you're still bitter that I birdied 17 against you from that left side, but this is taking it to another level ;D ;D
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The changes on 17 won't affect the way I approach the hole, and actually may help me a bit since I have a tendency to end up in the left rough on the layup. This may help my eye take it further right. I will miss the view back up the fairway from the 17th green. I always thought it looked really cool to look back on hill with the split fairway. I really liked that visual. Looking forward to seeing it for myself in a few weeks.
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Dan - I'm not asking for much. How bout the left edge of that bunker marks the left edge of the fairway instead of the right edge. You know, give the shorter hitters a tiny bit more room to be left.
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Mowing lines on #17 are a big change this year. We are allowing most of the left fairway to revert to native. Re-focusing on the old (right) fairway. Putting more emphasis on execution on the tee shot. The center bunker complex will now (again) be the left side. Second shot landing area shifting slightly right, adding area on the right and taking away on the left.
Very interesting. I'll be honest, I'm bummed to hear the 17th will get narrowed down again. I really liked the massive width and the option of going left or right (not many people could go over that center bunker complex, even from the old back tee). That said, it's not like the right fairway (soon to be only fairway) is narrow. My major issue with the original iteration of the hole was the cramped feeling caused by the trees, not necessarily the lack of width in the old fairway. Now that the trees have been cleared and there is a large "corridor", I think the hole will still look/feel pretty open, even without the left fairway.
Dan - why did the club decide to revert back to one fairway? Cost? Playability? The double-wide only got a couple seasons of play, correct?
Also - would love for Mike D. to chime in.
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How many of you guys intentionally aimed for the left side off the tee?
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Jud - My friend Jason, who played with the two of us the past two Labor Days , usually aimed for bombIng it over the hill left of the bunker. He felt like the carry was shorter and the shot better suited his eye. The left side of the fairway on the downslope wasn't as generous as the right side but it had a little tilt to it that generally brought things back into play as opposed to running through the left side. I know he will miss it!
I like the idea of wide before the hill and narrow it down after the hill. Require more precision for the bombers or for the 2nd shot of the short hitters.
I trust Dan and Mike know what they are doing. I just hope it stays wide enough off the tee that it doesn't turn into a lost ball hunting fest on the left side.
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How many of you guys intentionally aimed for the left side off the tee?
Jud - a lot of it depends on the wind, which tee you're playing, and what type of ball flight you have. During last year's Peninsula Cup (playing from the old back tee), I instructed my playing partner to aim for the left fairway at least twice out of our three rounds. We had wind in our face and it was the only way he was going to get his ball down the hill (you need a little less length to catch the hill when going left). It made even more sense b/c he plays a right to left ball fight and could aim at the center bunkers and draw off of them.
And the plan worked on one attempt: he got his drive to the catch the slope and it took it all the way to the bottom, giving him the option of going at the green in two with something less than a 3-wood (which I think is suicide considering the severity of that green). His tee shot would not have reached the hill if he had gone right.
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The resurrection of this thread surely violates some internet statute of limitations.
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The resurrection of this thread surely violates some internet statute of limitations.
Would you prefer that we continue to litter the front page with different Kingsley threads? I think there are only three as of now. This is just our way of trying to entice you up there for a few rounds.
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Actually we're just feeling a bit jilted by the Dismal Love Fest....
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I'll try to get there after Crystal Downs this summer.
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Tim
Short of the short left bunker is the widest point. The fairway line there runs left of that bunker's left edge.
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I'll try to get there after Crystal Downs this summer.
Why pass on the best course in Michigan for the 2nd best course? ;D
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Tim
Short of the short left bunker is the widest point. The fairway line there runs left of that bunker's left edge.
Dan - Good to hear.
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Tim
Short of the short left bunker is the widest point. The fairway line there runs left of that bunker's left edge.
Excellent! Just give me a place to miss. That's all I can ask.
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What is an easier walk Ballyneal or Kingsley?
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What is an easier walk Ballyneal or Kingsley?
Kingsley to me, but not by much. Both are a great energetic walk, just think Ballyneal is a bit more spread out.
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Mac,
Just watch the walk from 12 green to 13 tee. It's quite a steep little hill. If it's an issue you can walk around on the cart path which is less of a grade.
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What is an easier walk Ballyneal or Kingsley?
Mac, given the Hundred Hole Hike coming up in June...I was wondering the same thing...
I really enjoy walking Kingsley and have never felt it was a hard walk in total. There are several hard portions of the walk - but generally they are brief and fairly well spread out throughout the round...
#1 - If you choose the upper (right) fairway, the walk up the hill can be difficult, but it is a nice way to get warm for your round!
#5-6 Transition - Not a long walk by modern golf course standards, but one of the longer ones at Kingsley.
#7-8 Transition - Same as above, but a little more difficult and uphill if playing the back tee on #8.
#8-9 Transition - Both uphill and can take your breath away, but the south tee is probably more strenuous, especially if you consider the walk from the south tee to the green. While it is downhill, it isn't the easiest walk.
#12-13 Transition - I would estimate this is probably the hardest transition on the course and at a fairly steep grade. It is fairly short, but it gets your attention.
The course is fairly undulating and there is rarely a flat walk out there - the flattest portion of the property is probably the fairways and combined rough on #14 and #15.
The above commentary only applies if you are hitting fairways and greens - if you get out of position at Kingsley, it can take its toll on your card and body...
#1 - Right hand side of fairway
#6 - Left or right
#7 - Right!
#12 - Right!!
#13 - Right!!
I have never had the privilege of playing Ballyneal, but hope to one day...
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Thanks guys!
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I'm sure y'all don't need me to start another thread on Kingsley, but I did want to mention that I thought the course and club were fantastic. The place is my kind of place and the golf my kind of golf. I call it adventure golf. Wonderful routing, akin to an adventure, bold and natural feeling bunkers, off the charts cool greens...really great stuff!!! The members of the place have to be very happy with the club/course.
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Mac, glad to hear you enjoyed it. How much golf were you able to get in? I find that I like it more and more every time I play it, and I look forward to almost every shot on the course. The tee shot on 10 is a little boring, and maybe the tee shot on 15 as well, but that's about it. It's a course that I liked the first time, but loved the fifth or sixth time. I look forward to at least four more trips up there this summer.
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The tee shot on 10 is a little boring, and maybe the tee shot on 15 as well, but that's about it.
more interesting knowing you don't have a 4 iron in your bag for the approach...
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Bill...
I was lucky enough to go around 4 times. I could have played it 100 more...it was so interesting and exciting. And like you said, I liked it more and more each time around.
And I didn't find 10 or 15 tee shots boring...perhaps compared with the other shots they were not as thrilling...but far from boring.
It is really a very special place.
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Mac -
What were your favorite holes?
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Ditto to what Mac said! I thought holes 2,3,4,5,6 and 14,15,16 were outstanding. I am planning on getting back there for golf and some fishing next time.
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Mac -
What were your favorite holes?
I really, really like the entire course. So, I am not slighting any holes by mentioning that...
13 was my favorite.
3 green was amazing.
4 fairway was really cool.
And I could play 9 for days on end...for all reasons inclucing the good, the bad, and the really, really ugly!!! :)
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Mac,
Completely agree with you. I loved the entire course and was blown away by the entire experience. It's the exact atmosphere I want in a golf club and the exact type of course I want to play.
13 is an absolutely amazing hole. You stand on that tee thinking that you can just hit it up by the green, and at worst you will make a 4. But the drop offs are so severe that making a 5 from there is anything but assured. But if you lay back you also have to precisely hit your tee shot to have a good distance in to keep your ball on the green with spin, as well as avoid the hazards and get your self a good line to the flag. So if you dont think and execute on the hole, you can really make a big number on a really short hole.
Also, I love how in a stretch of three semi-lenghty holes, it is broken up by this short hole, and many people will be lulled to sleep and thinking they can take a break. When in fact, 13 requires much more attention than 12, 14 or 15 but is many yards shorter. People looking at the score card will think 12, 14 and 15 are going to be difficult, so they will try to be extra aggressive on 13 to make a birdie, and most will end up making a big number. It is an excellent hole put at a perfect time in the round.
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The tee shot on 10 is a little boring, and maybe the tee shot on 15 as well, but that's about it.
more interesting knowing you don't have a 4 iron in your bag for the approach...
Technically I don't think I knew it at the time. ;)
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When in fact, 13 requires much more attention than 12, 14 or 15 but is many yards shorter.
Zack, I am glad you enjoyed the Kingsley Club. I agree with you on two fronts - it is exactly the type of club I want to play each day and that #13 is an amazing hole - probably one of the holes I look forward to the most each round - and for me that is saying a lot because I love so many of the holes out there.
As for stating #13 requires more attention than #15, I may have to disagree with you. While the tee shot may not require as much attention as the tee ball on #13 (even though the slope of the hill runs the opposite of where you want your drive to end up), I think the second (and often times third shot for me) is one of the most difficult on the course. I have yet to master the approach into that green and I would guess that in relation to par, my stroke average is highest there with the possible exception of #2.
Chris.
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Great thread, bringing back lots of memories of one of the greatest days on the golf course I ever had. One I will never forget...
Sometime when I have more time I need to go back through my pics and see what if anything I can add. I played that day with Dr. Gary Wiren and the conversations we had coupled with the fantastic golf were something I will treasure forever.
Cant believe I just went back in my database and see that my day at Kingsley was 7 years ago already. It certainly doesn't seem that long ago. Yet it reminds me that I need to get back there soon...
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When in fact, 13 requires much more attention than 12, 14 or 15 but is many yards shorter.
Zack, I am glad you enjoyed the Kingsley Club. I agree with you on two fronts - it is exactly the type of club I want to play each day and that #13 is an amazing hole - probably one of the holes I look forward to the most each round - and for me that is saying a lot because I love so many of the holes out there.
As for stating #13 requires more attention than #15, I may have to disagree with you. While the tee shot may not require as much attention as the tee ball on #13 (even though the slope of the hill runs the opposite of where you want your drive to end up), I think the second (and often times third shot for me) is one of the most difficult on the course. I have yet to master the approach into that green and I would guess that in relation to par, my stroke average is highest there with the possible exception of #2.
Chris.
Yeah, but 15 is already a par 4.5, so it's not surprising that your scoring average is up. I expect to make five at 15, with the occasional four (which is largely how I think about 14 as well). That green is so small that actually expecting to be on in two can be a bit pie in the sky. I don't know that I'd say 13 requires more attention, but it's definitely a hole where my score more often fails to live up to my expectations.
It hasn't been mentioned in this latest round of posts, but I think 8 is the whole where I've been flummoxed the most. I can't seem to dial in the yardage on the second shot, even though I know that the safer play is long. I've just had a hard time reading the uphill combined with the upslope, and even if I hold the green, it's well short of where I want it to be. As for 2, I mentioned to Jud on our last trip that I could walk out and set up a folding chair, take a book, and watch people hit shots into that green all day. I've never played a shot which should seem so boring (the play is the same every day - back middle of the green - no matter where the pin is), which creates so much anxiety.
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I played that day with Dr. Gary Wiren and the conversations we had coupled with the fantastic golf were something I will treasure forever.
I had a similar opportunity to play Kingsley with Dr. Wiren -- definitely one of the highlights of my golfing life.
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When in fact, 13 requires much more attention than 12, 14 or 15 but is many yards shorter.
Zack, I am glad you enjoyed the Kingsley Club. I agree with you on two fronts - it is exactly the type of club I want to play each day and that #13 is an amazing hole - probably one of the holes I look forward to the most each round - and for me that is saying a lot because I love so many of the holes out there.
As for stating #13 requires more attention than #15, I may have to disagree with you. While the tee shot may not require as much attention as the tee ball on #13 (even though the slope of the hill runs the opposite of where you want your drive to end up), I think the second (and often times third shot for me) is one of the most difficult on the course. I have yet to master the approach into that green and I would guess that in relation to par, my stroke average is highest there with the possible exception of #2.
Chris.
As for 2, I mentioned to Jud on our last trip that I could walk out and set up a folding chair, take a book, and watch people hit shots into that green all day. I've never played a shot which should seem so boring (the play is the same every day - back middle of the green - no matter where the pin is), which creates so much anxiety.
During the long, cold, and dark winters in Grand Rapids - the tee shot on #2 is the shot I go over in my head repeatedly...it is also the shot on the range that I practice before my long weekends at the club and usually one of the last shots I hit on the range at Kingsley before heading up to the first tee...
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Dan The Man Lucas putting in the new tees on #4 this weekend. There will be 4 tees along this line for all abilities. For all you right handed faders out there that have only played the hole from the fairway gully on the right, salvation has arrived.
View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/2vhwvew/6)
Not a "True Links" cause it doesn't get any wind?
View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/6tmepw/6)
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Jud
I knew it was blowing hard that day, I watched a couple balls get blown off 6 green, but the vid of the flag on 2 is awesome. I think I'll send a link to Cheesebrough, the flagstick manufacturer. To see something that stout get bent over that far is a testament to their product.
Dan
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No matter where Dan builds a tee on #4, I'm pretty confident that I'll find a way to dump it in the bowl on the right side. Now we just need a flood proof road to the River Camp. ;D
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Thanks for that flagstick video. It looks completely fake! I'm guessing there's a good reason you were filming and not playing at that moment.
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Dinner and drinks for anyone who posts a picture of another 14 year-old (or younger) playing original left-hand Tom Stewart hickories:
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2z7kg1s.jpg)
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I see from the baseball cap that the young lad suffers from The Affliction. Other than that, this is a winning entry in next year's photo contest!
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Dinner and drinks for anyone who posts a picture of another 14 year-old (or younger) playing original left-hand Tom Stewart hickories:
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2z7kg1s.jpg)
Love that...it doesn't get much better than Kingsley, a bag of T. Stewart's, and Trues...
I am hopeful that Ralph was looking down that day - I am sure he would have had a huge smile on his face...
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Love that...it doesn't get much better than Kingsley, a bag of T. Stewart's, and Trues...
I am hopeful that Ralph was looking down that day - I am sure he would have had a huge smile on his face...
Chris,
I am sure Ralph was smiling as David was carrying one of his niblicks in the bag!
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Chris,
I am sure Ralph was smiling as David was carrying one of his niblicks in the bag!
Jud, looks great!
My son is 13, also a lefty, also has the same pair of TRUEs but has only 2 hickory clubs - how/where did you find a lefty set?
Summer is very busy for us, but let's try to get the boys together at the KC before the season is done!
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Matt,
It's a work in progress. Basically I scour the web and any time I find a lefty TS I buy it.
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This has GCA get-together written all over it, IMHO.
It just took a few years...
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One of my all time favorite threads. Great bump.
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No need to start a new thread, but my girlfriend and I were up at Kingsley over the weekend to do some snowshoeing. In case anyone wonders what Kingsley looks like under four feet of snow....
First hole
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Mobile%20Uploads/Kinglsey%20in%20Winter/1sthole_zps93317651.jpg)
Looking back at the first tee from the fairway
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Mobile%20Uploads/Kinglsey%20in%20Winter/1stteefromfairway_zpsdffc9e14.jpg)
Fouth green with the second in the distance
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Mobile%20Uploads/Kinglsey%20in%20Winter/4thand2ndgreens_zps3c8035f6.jpg)
12th hole
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Mobile%20Uploads/Kinglsey%20in%20Winter/12thhole_zps109a6d46.jpg)
Looking back at the tee from the 12th green
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Mobile%20Uploads/Kinglsey%20in%20Winter/12thteefromgreen_zpsea5ff3cb.jpg)
15th hole
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Mobile%20Uploads/Kinglsey%20in%20Winter/15thhole_zps09cf4c1c.jpg)
17th hole and cottages
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Mobile%20Uploads/Kinglsey%20in%20Winter/17thholeandcottages_zps8f5becbc.jpg)
Patio and Fire pit
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Mobile%20Uploads/Kinglsey%20in%20Winter/Firepit_zpse3fa630d.jpg)
Somewhere down there is the famous 18th tee mailbox, with the 17th green in the background
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Mobile%20Uploads/Kinglsey%20in%20Winter/Mailbox_zps8f1c1243.jpg)
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Nice photos...Kingsley really is a beautiful place all year long. My streak of Kingsley visits may end this year at 6 years :'(.
Thanks,
Bart
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So what does Jamieson that's been kept in a freezer for four months taste like Bill?
Ken
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So what does Jamieson that's been kept in a freezer for four months taste like Bill?
Ken
Try as we might, Ken, we just couldn't dig all the way down to that thing. If we'd tried at the end of our trek that day (about two miles in some very deep snow) instead of the beginning, we may have been a bit more motivated.
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Great photos Bill. Did you bring a sled for the 17th?
Hope you're surviving the Chi-town winter.
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Even under all that snow, it still looks like Kingsley.
If you have more pictures, you should post them without captions and let us guess what holes we're looking at.
This winter in Cincinnati has been worse than one of the winters I spent in Wisconsin. I can't imagine how rough it's been on you Chicago guys. I'm a bit surprised you were even able to make it to the club. Stay strong. Just a few more weeks and it'll be tornadoes instead of snow!
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Josh, the sled we brought wasn't very good, and as it was, the snow was so soft and deep that it would have been tough going. Some local members showed up on Saturday to do some sledding on 17, and it looked fun, but even they said it was slower than normal. And as hard as it was trudging up those hills in snowshoes, it was a hundred times harder doing it without snowshoes. I walked from the bottom of the 17th fairway to the cottages without snowshoes and thought I was going to have a heart attack! With snowshoes, you'd sink about 4-8 inches in really soft stuff. Without snowshoes, I was up to my hips.
If you have more pictures, you should post them without captions and let us guess what holes we're looking at.
Great idea, Jason! Here ya go.
Photo #1
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%20snow%202/5thgreen_zps527b09e0.jpg)
Photo #2
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%20snow%202/9thgreenfromputtinggreen_zps21ec29b3.jpg)
Photo #3
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%20snow%202/14thfairway_zpsd143b705.jpg)
Photo #4
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%20snow%202/12thgreen_zps956a2b88.jpg)
Photo #5
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%20snow%202/11thgreenfrom18thtee_zps35119d23.jpg)
Photo #6
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%20snow%202/15thfairwayfrom17thtee_zpse96bf69d.jpg)
Photo #7
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%20snow%202/18thgreenfromfairway_zps639cd002.jpg)
And a couple tough ones that maybe only the members will get.
Photo #8
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%20snow%202/BlowoutBunker_zps2fbfa65b.jpg)
Photo #9
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%20snow%202/Maintenancetrailoffof1_zps4186464e.jpg)
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All right Bill, I'll play...
1 - 5 green looking back toward the tee
2 - Near the clubhouse looking toward 9 green (you can see the top of the flag) with the elevated teeing grounds in the distance
3 - Looking down 14 from the left hand side
4 - Approach on 12
5 - 11 green from 18 tee
6 - short of 16 green looking down toward 15 fairway
7 - 18 from fairway
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#8 is sand pit behind 15?
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Well done, Matt. Seven for seven. Jud is correct as well, though it's more to the left of 15 than behind it.
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#9 is the maintenance road next to #1?
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awesome pictures, thanks for posting. i'm sitting here in LA in 75 degree weather yet kingsley covered in snow and 5 degree temperatures seems more appealing.
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Isn't #1 hole 15 green towards 16th
Almost as good looking as it was when i was there in september. Hope to make it back one day.
Edit: missed that Matt was 7/7
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(http://i59.tinypic.com/2qn4emp.jpg)
Look from the new 4th tee box. This is left and down the hill from the original tees. This image is from the normal back tees. (This image is zoomed in on my Iphone and the rough you see in front of you had not been mowed yet given the cold spring we've had). There are 4 or 5 boxes down there. There's a tournament tee behind that stretches to 470 and a very front box the distance of which I forget but which is temptingly driveable (you can barely make it out on the hill on the left just to the right of the first bunker you see). While we will have to circle back in a year or two after the novelty factor wears off, my first impression is that it's a much better hole from down here. You are hitting across the valley and into the major fairway slope instead of bounding either side of it somewhat indiscriminately. Fairness advocates will prefer the fact that you can see the landing area instead of being totally blind, although this is a marginal benefit to me personally but it sure is a cool looking hole from down here. Additionally, this green is very receptive of long running approaches. The only possible negatives I can see at first blush are that it's a longer walk down to these boxes and a front pin becomes potentially less attractive with the longer approach generally required.
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Jud,
I am with you that I think the 4th becomes a better hole from over there. I think one of the negatives is that the tee shot loses some of its ability to make the golfer uncomfortable on the tee and really make the golfer think about where he wants to hit the ball. On the old tee, you really had to think about where to hit your shot, knowing you would be penalized if you did not execute (either by pushing it right into the gully, or left down the hill into the rough). Now it is a tee shot where the player just takes driver and hits it into the hillside, removing some of the benefits to those that were able to control their tee ball
That said, I still think it is a better hole from the new tees. The green is perfectly situated to accept longer approaches, although front pins might not be usable. I think at the longer length it becomes a perfect compliment to the 15th, with the course having a long par 4 with a forgiving drive and second shot, and another with high demands for both shots.
Also the new front tee measures about 230, perfect for a long par three into that green.
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The only possible negatives I can see at first blush are that it's a longer walk down to these boxes and a front pin becomes potentially less attractive with the longer approach generally required.
It's a significantly longer green-to-tee walk to the back box benched into the woods, only marginally so to the other gold/blue boxes, about the same to the white box, and then again significantly longer to the forward box as it requires crossing the fourth fairway. But when cruising around in a cart as you did all weekend, it's still the same few lumbering steps irrespective of which box one plays ;)
I also disagree that the front pin becomes less attractive with the longer approach from the left side, which is where most tee shots will now end up. If anything, it's a more interesting shot when trying to bounce a mid to long iron over the hill and onto the front, or carom it off one of the kick-boards and back to a front pin, as compared to flying a wedge to short iron at the pin.
For me, a bigger quibble would be that the angle and added length effectively remove the bowl on the right side of the fairway as a viable option for moderate-length hitters. This is unfortunate, as I prefer the approach from that side, even with the blindness, to some pins. If the new boxes were the only boxes available, the hole in my view would become too one-dimensional off the tee and with the approach compared to what it has been.
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It seems to me that whether or not the hole is better from the new tees misses the point. The hole is better WITH the new tees because they offer increased variety in length, looks, angles and strategy (especially when taking into account pin locations and wind). All of this was accomplished by using what was previously wasted space, and without impacting that cool view of the back of 6 green.
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So will the club alternate between the new tees and the old tees?
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Yes Brian. And, as is customary, barring maintenance restrictions, players can play from whatever tee box they want when they want.
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Yes Brian. And, as is customary, barring maintenance restrictions, players can play from whatever tee box they want when they want.
Seems like a win-win all around.