Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ed Oden on October 29, 2008, 12:01:44 AM
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Carolina Golf Club reopened this month following a complete restoration/renovation of our 1929 Donald Ross course by Kris Spence. I am not ready to do a full profile yet since I feel the course needs some maturing for pictures to do it justice. But I am so high on what Kris has accomplished that I wanted to offer others a chance to see a glimpse of his work. So I thought I would share some before and after pictures. I have chosen the 6th and 7th holes for no reason other than I have a few more before pictures than most of the other holes.
For those who don't know about Carolina, it is a modest private club in Charlotte, NC which has suffered from lack of money and attention until recently. Brad Klein summed things up pretty well in his consulting report for the club by saying "Carolina GC is a course with "good bones". For too long, the skeleton has remained unrecognized."
Before - The #6 tee choked by trees and shrubs...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2415/2239982402_30204100a7_o.jpg)
After - Trees removed with striking results...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3072/2993951434_52bdc8a4de_b.jpg)
After - With the tree removal, came this restored shared bunker cluster between #6 and #7 fairways (try to ignore the new maintenance facility which has not yet been hidden from view)...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/2983292854_ccffeb4a72_b.jpg)
Before - The approach to #6...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2376/2239165677_9f929a5a26_o.jpg)
After - The new approach from just short of the restored right fairway bunker...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3210/2983361626_6efab24f80_b.jpg)
Before - Looking back toward the 6th tee you can see a host of trees to the right separating the 6th and 7th holes...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2196/2239955984_681632167a_o.jpg)
After - Looking back from behind the current #6 green. The 7th green is in the distance with the 6th tee immediately to its left. Virtually all the trees between the holes are gone dramatically improving the playability of #7 and the views between the holes. Also notice the #6 green, with restored size and contour. The old green was severely sloped back to front but otherwise lacking in character.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3048/2983292824_02876e35bd_b.jpg)
After - Here is the current #7 tee. This hole used to play much straighter than Ross designed. A new back tee, tree removal on the right side and the restored bunker cluster combine to make this into the intended tough dogleg.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3054/2983305172_4114c21e64_b.jpg)
After - And once you reach the dogleg, you now have this fabulous uphill approach...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2983292874_caffa67fd5_b.jpg)
Before - Looking back from the 7th green, the old deteriorated fairway bunkers were blocked from the green by tree plantings and the trees on the left restricted the dogleg...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2280/2239191963_b0f16a2e52_o.jpg)
After - Now, trees are gone and playability restored...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2983292892_2844567ec8_b.jpg)
Before - And the old nondescript #7 saucer green...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2242/2239192189_4a7e3e136e_o.jpg)
After - Restored with terrific character...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3026/2983304140_111d3bf1bd_b.jpg)
Kris deserves kudos for his work at Carolina. I am surely biased, but I truly believe it is one of the best restoration efforts of its type. Hopefully he will spot this thread and accept some praise.
Ed
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Ed - Great comparative photos! All I can say is WOW!!! What a difference. If you have 18 holes that are that dramatically improved you will be in golf heaven.
Kris has recently done work on the Furman University and CC of Spartanburg courses in my area of South Carolina. I can't wait to see the finished products. I'm playing Furman on Saturday. I'll plan to take a lot of photos and share them with you next week.
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Great pics...can you give us the yardages of the holes? How far out are the shared bunkers? When can I visit? ;)
Bart
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Ed,
Really nice pics of these holes an amazing transformation from the tree removal and renovation of the bunkers and green complexes. I love the photos of #7 approach and the last one showing the rolls in the new green complex on #7. If the other holes look anything like these changes Carolina GC looks like a really fun place to play.
Matt
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The pics look great, Ed, but I have a question about this one (technically for Kris)....why the front
lip for the bunker on the right? The raised lip (not to mention the rough, but that's less unusual)
will prevent some balls from going in the bunker:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2983292874_caffa67fd5_b.jpg)
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I grew up in Charlotte and my father was a member at Carolina.
Ed Oden's appraisal of the course is right on as to its modest membership and upkeep. There were quite a few good holes (#3, 6, 7, 10, 11 and 15) but a lot of somewhat nondescript holes.
My understanding is that the original first two holes have been eliminated and two new holes created to the right of the original 10th and 11th holes. Can anyone confirm or describe what's happened?
I'd love to play it again.
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Scott -
If you look at the 8th photo, it looks like on the direct line from the tee
those bunkers are en echelon, such that the "right" bunker with the raised front
lip appears to sit somewhat behind the "left" bunker, which makes
it less of a gathering bunker. Maybe that contributed to the front lip.
Ed - Great pictures. One question I have - I am not sure where the 7th tee sits,
but if it is proximate to the 6th Green, is the more direct line on 7 to play back down
6 fairway?
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Michael, there are a number of holes that have been more dramatically improved than #6 and #7. I only chose those two holes because I had before pictures that matched up pretty well with my newer ones. At the end of the day, there is not a single hole that isn't significantly improved. I was prepared for improvement to the more pedestrian holes. But what really has me stunned is how much better the the good holes have become.
Bart, from the back tees, #6 is 410 yds and #7 is 448 yds. I don't know for sure, but I would guess on both holes the bunker cluster is in the 210-260 yard range from the back tees. We'll need to do a home and home series next year so you can see for yourself.
Matt, the work at Carolina was actually much more extensive than just trees, bunkers and greens. But I can't stress enough the impact of the tree removal program. It is that work that allows the rest of the course and the changes made by Kris to shine. Kris went much further in this area than at any of his other restorations that I have seen or just about any other restoration I am aware of. We are now reaping the benefits of trusting Kris' de-treeification vision. If you are standing on either the 14th or 18th tees (they are right next to each other) you can see at least a portion of every hole on the course other than #9 and you can see no less 11 flags! The vistas are just remarkable.
Scott, Kris will need to answer whether there is any intent on his part. That being said, I think the photo is a bit of an illusion as to your question. That picture was taken from a point probably 15-20 feet higher than the right bunker. Its all downhill from there. When you combine that with the late afternoon shadows, I think what you are seeing as a raised lip is much less so in reality. More importantly, the right bunker is actually the turning point in the dogleg left. From the tee that bunker is almost directly behind the left bunker. So balls headed toward this bunker will enter from the left (i.e. the flatter) side and, being that the shot is downhill, almost certainly will get to the sand. While I can see where the right side of the bunker might repel a ball, it would take a hook in just the right spot to do so. Also, I understand your thoughts about the rough border around the bunkers. I too would prefer these areas to be mowed. But at least these areas are narrow (generally only a few feet). I look forward to getting you down here to see the course for yourself.
David, you are correct, the original #1 and #2 no longer exist. You no doubt will recall from your youth that those two holes were parallel short par 4s that were likely the weakest on the course. A few years ago we acquired an approximately 40 acre tract to the east of old #2 and south of #10, #11 and #12. Since the old #1 and #2 holes offerred virtually no room or other opportunities for significant improvement, the club decided to build two new holes on the acquired property and to put a nice practice facility where old #1 and #2 used to be. While I can understand if some on this site feel a bit queesy about losing two Ross originals, given the mediocre nature of the original holes and their lack of potential for upgrade, I have a hard time believing that Ross himself wouldn't have made a similar decision if he were afforded the opportunity to work on the adjacent property. Both Brad Klein and The Donald Ross Society were consulted during this process and I feel safe in saying they did not find any fault in this decision.
Ed
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Scott -
If you look at the 8th photo, it looks like on the direct line from the tee
those bunkers are en echelon, such that the "right" bunker with the raised front
lip appears to sit somewhat behind the "left" bunker, which makes
it less of a gathering bunker. Maybe that contributed to the front lip.
Ed - Great pictures. One question I have - I am not sure where the 7th tee sits,
but if it is proximate to the 6th Green, is the more direct line on 7 to play back down
6 fairway?
SPDB, sorry I missed your post while typing mine. Your first point is spot on and I tried to cover it in my reply. And your question is a good one. Here is the "After" picture from the #6 tee again:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3072/2993951434_52bdc8a4de_b.jpg)
The back tee on #7 is directly behind the left greenside bunker, slightly to the left and in front of the small restroom building. From there you have a direct shot down the 6th fairway. As you move up to more forward tees, however, it becomes less of an option as the trees between the holes progressively impede that line of play. I doubt it would pay to take this route since you will almost certainly be left with a downhill lie to an uphill green at an awkward angle whereas a good drive down the conventional route will be on flat ground and leave a straight approach into the green, albeit perhaps a bit longer. Regardless, I plan on trying "Route 6" sometime just to see how it plays.
Ed
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spectacular. I've played it many times and hardly recognize it. sure looks like a fun place to hit the driver!
but with MPCC, CCC and CGC all under reno's at the same time...where was everyone playing golf?!?!
SM
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Ed, thanks for the kind comments and Im glad you are enjoying the course so much. It is definitely the type of course I would want to play everyday.
Carolina was a good course waiting to be found, it started out in 1929 as a public facility and quickly fell victim to the depression. This turned out to be somewhat of a blessing as many of the old bunker forms and green fill pads where preserved. Greens 3,4,5,7,8,10,14,15 were restored to their original Ross forms, 1 and 2 are new holes, 6,9,11,12 and 13 were repositioned for various reasons including additonal length, improved agronomics, better angles and playability, strategy and variety, etc. Many of the original Ross bunkers were restored in their exact locations, others moved to accomodate the distance game and several new bunkers added where appropriate. The old golf course was one dimensional having 7 holes running parallel and straight back and forth through a large swale running north and south. My primary goal on these holes was to push the fairway from side to side within the corridor to create a variety of angles and curves. The openess and width of the course is what I like the most. We are in the process of planting a few strategically placed specimen oak trees to compliment what is already there. One in particular will be placed left of #6 green and along a direct line to #6 fairway from #7 tee. I think your point about playing that angle is correct, why approach that green from a narrow down hill fairway lie over the deepest bunker on the course. The 7th fairway is the widest corridor on the course.
Scott, the bunkers on the left of the 7th hole are positioned on a downslope from the tee. Ross placed them there with only the first one visible to the original tee line. We saddled the fairway and pushed the hole slightly right to strengthen the dogleg. The inside left bunkers are raised and cut into the top of mounds. Ross did this several times at Mimosa Hills for drainage / visibility and I needed the same functions here. It also gives the bunkering more variety.
David E, you are spot on about the non-descript nature of the old course. I doubt it will ever be described as such now. Ross did a nice job bunkering the course and giving the holes identity. Unfortunately very few people ever saw the original intent there so the impact of the work comes across as a redesign when in fact much of it was there but for a short time. I used the 18 hole Ross routing sketch to identify the original features of the course, every bunker on the plan was constructed in 29. We did convert the old 1st and 2nd holes into a first rate practice area. Two new holes along with a 7.5 acre lake now sit to the right of the old 2nd hole on 20 acres of newly purchased land. The old holes were on what appreared to be an long narrow appendage to the original piece of land and I felt confident if Ross had the new property available he would have used it in his original routing, maybe not the way I did but included none the less. If you get back to play it I would love to hear your comments.
I am very proud of the work at Carolina. I consider it to be some of the finest work Ive done. Alot of people underestimated the original work done by Ross there because it was gone so soon and never maintained at a high level. Its going to have a significant impact in the Charlotte area as well as the state in my opinion.
We are also finishing up the work at Myers Park CC which Im very excited about. The impact of the tree removal / thinning and restoration of their greens and bunkers is a dramatic transformation. MPCC was a 46 remodel by Ross therefore there are differences in the greens and bunkers versus Carolina.
I have photos of both courses in my photo gallery at www.pbase.com/kspdesign Just click on the gallery to access the course and each photo to enlarge.
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Sorry guys, I havent uploaded the photos for Carolina GC to my photo gallery as I stated in my post, I will do so in the morning or friday if time allows.
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Ed,
If this is any indication of the work on the rest of the course, I'm sure you and the rest of the membership must be very satisfied. Kudo's to the membership for allowing Kris to peel back some layers and allowing the course to shine through.
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Sam (and others who have played the course in the past), I promise that if you came back you would not believe your eyes. The transformation is so all encompassing it is sometimes hard to believe you are at the same place...at least until you see the clubhouse! Its funny you mention all the Charlotte courses closed for restoration/renovation this year. Given our humble stature, we did not have a reciprocal with Quail. But we had some great arrangements at clubs outside of Charlotte. So it actually forced me to get out and see some places I wouldn't ordinarily visit, like Sedgefield, Mimosa, Gaston, Irish Creek, Forsyth and Salisbury. In hindsight, it was a blessing in disguise since it really opened my eyes to the depth of quality courses we have in the Carolinas that most people have never heard of.
Kris, I am glad that you chimed in. Congratulations again on a tremendous effort! As great as things are now, I can't wait until the day the long fescue has grown in and the course reaches its full potential.
David, the leadership of our club, together with our GM and Super, deserve the credit for allowing Kris the freedom to do his job. The end result is the confluence of the right people in the right place at the right time. We are very fortunate in that respect. I doubt we would have attained the same degree of success if we had undertaken this endeavor at another time under different leadership.
Ed
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Ed,
Would you please email me (egerdb@aol.com)?
Thanks,
David
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Scott,
One small note: that lip will deflect water around the bunker saving the life of the interior
Ed,
Thanks for all that information, that was very well put together.
Kris,
Very nice job as always.
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Ed,
Would you please email me (egerdb@aol.com)?
Thanks,
David
Done
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It will be worth updating this thread with more pics once native areas grow in. Some of the big changes around the turn holes 11-13 are really worth seeing also. Going back to the native areas, I think CGC will have a distinctive look among ross courses in NC as the fescue swaths are going to be very wide and attractive in many places. Like say Shinnecock though, the fescue will only be in play for very poor shots.
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It will be worth updating this thread with more pics once native areas grow in. Some of the big changes around the turn holes 11-13 are really worth seeing also. Going back to the native areas, I think CGC will have a distinctive look among ross courses in NC as the fescue swaths are going to be very wide and attractive in many places. Like say Shinnecock though, the fescue will only be in play for very poor shots.
John, that is undoubtedly the one and only time anyone will ever compare Carolina and Shinnecock!!! Have you been back to your old stomping grounds yet?
Ed
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It will be worth updating this thread with more pics once native areas grow in. Some of the big changes around the turn holes 11-13 are really worth seeing also. Going back to the native areas, I think CGC will have a distinctive look among ross courses in NC as the fescue swaths are going to be very wide and attractive in many places.
Question for all (esp. Kris): how dense were the native grasses seeded? 100% or less? 100% thick usually means unfindable and unplayable balls, not to mention having to re-tee. Less dense means more playable/findable.
Like say Shinnecock though, the fescue will only be in play for very poor shots.
If it's out there, I can find it, no matter how far out of the way it is!
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Ed,
Good point on Shinny and CGC :D.
Btw, I'm still a member out there if you want to play or host some folks. I've played 18 twice since it reopened. Like it a ton.
JS
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Great photos, one often over looks what can be done with a great layout. Love to see the place some day. What an amazing difference by removing the trees.
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Scott, we seeded the fescue areas at 125# per acre. The mix was 33% each of Sheeps Fescue, Chewings Fescue and Hard Fescue. I prefer to seed around 90# per acre but very few clubs want to wait for the lower rates to establish and overseed into them after we are finished.
On steeper slopes we will up the rate to 200# for stability as most of these areas are out of play etc.
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For those interested, here is a link to a slideshow of the full course: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157608575550343/show/
If you want to look at individual pictures, click on "Back to your Carolina Golf Club set", then on the picture you want to view and then on "All Sizes" to enlarge the photo.
Again, pictures don't do the course justice now, much less down the road when the fescue takes hold. But hopefully they at least allow you to get a feel of the rest of the course and the changes made by Kris.
Ed
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Ed,
How are things going at Carolina? I saw this old thread linked in a current one, and I must have missed this thread originally late last year. Just wondering how things have progressed and how everyone things about the work now at CGC?
I got to play MPCC several months back, and hope to get up to CGC sometime in the next month or two. I would love to hear how the members have received the changes.
Daryl
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Ed,
How are things going at Carolina? I saw this old thread linked in a current one, and I must have missed this thread originally late last year. Just wondering how things have progressed and how everyone things about the work now at CGC?
I got to play MPCC several months back, and hope to get up to CGC sometime in the next month or two. I would love to hear how the members have received the changes.
Daryl
Daryl, I think I am safe in characterizing the membership's feelings as euphoric. Probably more so today than when we re-opened since we now know there is staying power beyond the initial schoolboy infatuation phase. Honestly, I have to pinch myself every time I go there to believe what I see is real. Its just remarkable to think that a transformation of this type can occur at a club of such humble stature. I can't say how good the course is because it is impossible for me to ignore where we came from in evaluating where we are today. But unlike many restorations/renovations, our changes were not about tournaments, rankings or recognition. Rather this was strictly about honoring and preserving our roots for the membership. So I think we did things for the right reasons. And, in that regards, the changes are, in my opinion, a rousing success by the only measuring stick that really matters. If others share our enthusiasm, then all the better.
Ed
PS - Shoot me an IM when you are coming.
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As an older member -- not really an old member -- I want to back up Ed. Just played a 4-ball today with a 22 year-old, 50 year-old, 58 year-old and 67 year-old (moi). Safe to say we had a blast. It's a members' club. We're not going to host the U.S. Open or anything like that. The course was packed on a hot Sunday afternoon, but play moved right along. Less than one year from sprigging, the Burmuda fairways are coming in very nicely. The fescues are growing in well (you may think too well if you hit into them). The variety to well-spaced teeing areas provides a course for everone. The greens are intersting and challenging, without being "impossible." The tree control scheme has opened things up to the the cooling breezes, such as they were today, and to real winds earlier this spring. Renovation architect Kris Spence and greenkeeper crew, Matt Warton in charge, along with Brian Schick, Chair of the Green Committee for the renovation, and GM Roger Wolfe, are to be commended. Sorry if this sounds like puffery, but when you feel good about your home club/course why not express it?
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Were any changes made to the 9th green? I played the fall invitational four-ball a few years back and I remember that green being very difficult.
Lawrence
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looks good. I look forward to seeing in person. Thanks for the slideshow.
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I played Carolina yesterday morning and CC of Spartanburg yesterday afternoon. Excellent work by Kris Spence on both counts.
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Were any changes made to the 9th green? I played the fall invitational four-ball a few years back and I remember that green being very difficult.
Lawrence
Significant changes. The green has been pulled back away from the road in front of the clubhouse (with a large hollow created between the back of the green and the road), and substantially enlarged and square-shaped. There are still two tiers, but the slope has been diminished greatly. The length of the hole remains about the same, with the back tees being pushed almost to Old Steele Creek Rd. Take a look it in Ed Oden's slide show of the entire course. http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157608575550343/show/
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Were any changes made to the 9th green? I played the fall invitational four-ball a few years back and I remember that green being very difficult.
Lawrence
Lawrence, as Carl mentions, the 9th green has been changed. As you probably recall, the old green was severely sloped back to front with a huge tier separating the front and back halves. Erosion and top dressing had created a convex shape that further distorted things. And the clubhouse (with the glass window of the bar) was literally steps behind the green. Brad Klein described this green as "awful" and "dangerous" in his consulting report. I don't have a picture of the old green, but here is what the hole used to look like from the tee, entirely choked by trees...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3362/3340277462_58a6900b27_o.jpg)
Here is what the hole looks like today from the tee...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3205/3013125432_e8c87f3322_b.jpg)
...from just short of the green...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/3012304633_4c2e1caa74_b.jpg)
...and from behind...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/3007285462_19671297fb_b.jpg)
Ed
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Here is hole #11 at CGC:
Before, during construction and after...
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#13
Before, during and after construction...
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#8
Before, during and after construction...
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#15 Before, During and After
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Kris, I have noticed that you have been busy in the Charlotte, Greenville/Spartanburg corridor this past year.
I am always curious about what the club wants when it hires an architect to do a majore renovation. When Carolina, MPCC,or Furman, hired you did they give you a mandate or a free hand? I'd be interested to hear more about what Meyers Park was like before the renovation. I played MPCC and the newly renovated Charlotte CC on successive days this year and while they seem to be on similar terrain they played very differently. Charlotte wants a big time event. My guess is that MPCC does not, but wanted a course more user friendly. True?
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Kris, I have noticed that you have been busy in the Charlotte, Greenville/Spartanburg corridor this past year.
I am always curious about what the club wants when it hires an architect to do a majore renovation.
A. Tommy, it depends on the needs of each club. In most cases there are agronomic/quality concerns with greens, tees, bunkers,irrigation that drive the initial inquiry. In several cases it has been dissatisfaction with prior projects or the desire to follow the flow of other successful projects in the region. Regaining or strengthening their competitive edge has played a big role as well. My purest restorative project to date was Mimosa Hills in Morganton, the entire need for the project came about due to the fact the original clay based Ross greens would not support bentgrass to modern standards and the bunkers did not have drainage. Restoration was a by product of needing to rebuild the greens and bunkers, therefore lost green space was reclaimed and sand build up both in the bottom and on the sides of the bunkers was removed in the process. At the same time we evaluated all the changes that had taken place and made various recommendations as to course length, tree work, irrigation, re-instating lost bunkers or repositioning a few into present day landing areas as long as the topography allowed.
Q. \When Carolina, MPCC,or Furman, hired you did they give you a mandate or a free hand?
A. None of the clubs mentioned above spelled out a mandate other than to make it the best it can be given the restraints of the site, budgets etc. In the case of Carolina and MPCC both clubs expressed their desire to maintain or reinstate as much of Ross original work as I felt appropriate, both gave me the final decision. I do listen and work with key members who have an intimite knowlege of the course and its playing characteristics. I prefer to build my initial impression and core ideas for the Master Plan independent of club member influence and then share my ideas later in the process through a preliminary plan with focus groups of members. From these meetings the final Plan is determined. I have gotten some of my best ideas from these membership focus group meetings.
Q. I'd be interested to hear more about what Meyers Park was like before the renovation. I played MPCC and the newly renovated Charlotte CC on successive days this year and while they seem to be on similar terrain they played very differently. Charlotte wants a big time event. My guess is that MPCC does not, but wanted a course more user friendly. True?
A. I would rather not comment on Myers Park before and I haven't seen Ron Prichards work at Charlotte CC, so I cant compare them. In my opinion it makes no sense to compare them anyway, they were designed in two completely different eras of Ross' career as CCC was originally designed in 1910 and MPCC was a Ross remodel late in his career in 1945. It would seem Ross was given specific instructions to design a championship test at CCC due to the high number of bunkers I saw on the old aerials. While MPCC is well bunkered in the landing areas and into and around the green sites, Ross did not install as many of the short directional and or crossing bunkers you see on his designs from the teen's and 20's when hickory shafts were used.
The greens at MP are a mix of restored greens and some new Ross style greens to fit a new location or angle etc. I definitely try to read the membership and develop the course on a level that I think is appropriate. We apparently got MPCC and Carolina right as the reports coming out of both facilities has been very positive. Both courses will need this full season to mature, the last time I saw them the supers at both places had them well on their way.
I hope I answered your questions,
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Kris, I have noticed that you have been busy in the Charlotte, Greenville/Spartanburg corridor this past year.
I am always curious about what the club wants when it hires an architect to do a majore renovation.
A. Tommy, it depends on the needs of each club. In most cases there are agronomic/quality concerns with greens, tees, bunkers,irrigation that drive the initial inquiry. In several cases it has been dissatisfaction with prior projects or the desire to follow the flow of other successful projects in the region. Regaining or strengthening their competitive edge has played a big role as well. My purest restorative project to date was Mimosa Hills in Morganton, the entire need for the project came about due to the fact the original clay based Ross greens would not support bentgrass to modern standards and the bunkers did not have drainage. Restoration was a by product of needing to rebuild the greens and bunkers, therefore lost green space was reclaimed and sand build up both in the bottom and on the sides of the bunkers was removed in the process. At the same time we evaluated all the changes that had taken place and made various recommendations as to course length, tree work, irrigation, re-instating lost bunkers or repositioning a few into present day landing areas as long as the topography allowed.
Q. \When Carolina, MPCC,or Furman, hired you did they give you a mandate or a free hand?
A. None of the clubs mentioned above spelled out a mandate other than to make it the best it can be given the restraints of the site, budgets etc. In the case of Carolina and MPCC both clubs expressed their desire to maintain or reinstate as much of Ross original work as I felt appropriate, both gave me the final decision. I do listen and work with key members who have an intimite knowlege of the course and its playing characteristics. I prefer to build my initial impression and core ideas for the Master Plan independent of club member influence and then share my ideas later in the process through a preliminary plan with focus groups of members. From these meetings the final Plan is determined. I have gotten some of my best ideas from these membership focus group meetings.
Q. I'd be interested to hear more about what Meyers Park was like before the renovation. I played MPCC and the newly renovated Charlotte CC on successive days this year and while they seem to be on similar terrain they played very differently. Charlotte wants a big time event. My guess is that MPCC does not, but wanted a course more user friendly. True?
A. I would rather not comment on Myers Park before and I haven't seen Ron Prichards work at Charlotte CC, so I cant compare them. In my opinion it makes no sense to compare them anyway, they were designed in two completely different eras of Ross' career as CCC was originally designed in 1910 and MPCC was a Ross remodel late in his career in 1945. It would seem Ross was given specific instructions to design a championship test at CCC due to the high number of bunkers I saw on the old aerials. While MPCC is well bunkered in the landing areas and into and around the green sites, Ross did not install as many of the short directional and or crossing bunkers you see on his designs from the teen's and 20's when hickory shafts were used.
The greens at MP are a mix of restored greens and some new Ross style greens to fit a new location or angle etc. I definitely try to read the membership and develop the course on a level that I think is appropriate. We apparently got MPCC and Carolina right as the reports coming out of both facilities has been very positive. Both courses will need this full season to mature, the last time I saw them the supers at both places had them well on their way.
I hope I answered your questions,
Thanks for your answer. It is very helpful and tastefully done. You answered the question more fully than I thought it could be answered. Thanks.
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Nice to see this old thread. Carolina is terrific, we played the Dixie Cup there in 2010 or 2011 I think.
Ed, the seventh green must be the scariest green at CGC. I think our four ball may have had 16 putts (and maybe a couple of follow up chips) with a pin just in front of the ridge on the left side. :o
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Wow Awesome Restoration, I am glad you made the changes!
Leaving the North for Durham on Friday, seems as the cold is coming with me!
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This course is good enough to make you wish for a cancelled flight or a long layover at CLT.
I really enjoyed 1, 7-9, and 10-13 but for me at least the point of a good Ross isn't so much the individual holes as the whole. The way the pars and lengths fit together, the general feel of the walk, and the siting of the greens. I can't tell you how excited I get for uphill Ross par 4s. They are almost uniformly exciting. He even makes the straight ones fun. I wish I understood how he managed to make such holes challenging, even hard, yet still fun.
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They look like Bent greens, are they?
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Mr Oden, Mr. Spence,
Mr. Oden, to you first, thank you for posting this pictorial. The 9th...wow...
I was wondering along with some of the questions already posted...
1. (Mr. Oden) How did you go about convincing the bulk of the membership to go along with this?
2. (Mr. Oden) From the first meeting of, I'm guessing your Greens Committee, to Kris actually spelling out his changes, how much time passed?
3. (Mr. Spence) Can you spell out the differences of working with members of your two Ross restorations vs. lessor known ones? My assumption is there is a pretty big difference because of the pedigree?
Thank you gentlemen.
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They look like Bent greens, are they?
Yes.
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Mr Oden, Mr. Spence,
Mr. Oden, to you first, thank you for posting this pictorial. The 9th...wow...
I was wondering along with some of the questions already posted...
1. (Mr. Oden) How did you go about convincing the bulk of the membership to go along with this?
2. (Mr. Oden) From the first meeting of, I'm guessing your Greens Committee, to Kris actually spelling out his changes, how much time passed?
3. (Mr. Spence) Can you spell out the differences of working with members of your two Ross restorations vs. lessor known ones? My assumption is there is a pretty big difference because of the pedigree?
Thank you gentlemen.
Joe,
I am the superintendent at Carolina...Carl Johnson and Ed Oden are members and Roger Wolfe is GM (all post on GCA). This project was a little unorthodox to say the least. The project was completed in four phases over a period of several years. Prior to the onset of this project Carolina Golf Club had two pressing issues...small, inadequate practice facilities and lack of suitable irrigation water. The existing practice facility prior to 2005 was a small range (about 12 stalls) located between the 8th and 16th holes (left off the 8th tee was OB into the range). Two small ponds served as the irrigation water supply and they were shallow...the club used to purchase water from the city to supplement the supply during the summer months. The club was fortunate to acquire over 40 acres of undeveloped, adjacent property sometime in late 2004-early 2005. Also, the city of Charlotte was in the planning stages of major infrastructure upgrades (water and sewer systems) with discussions already in the works about acquiring an easement through Carolina Golf Club.
Phase I - May 2005 I am hired as superintendent and two weeks later the club breaks ground on the construction of two new golf holes on the newly acquired land which now serve as holes 1 and 2 designed by Kris Spence. Phase II - The new holes are opened for play and the previous existing first and second holes are reconstructed into a new practice facility and short game area designed by Kris Spence. Phase III - a deep ravine and stream channel between the newly constructed second and the existing tenth holes is dammed to create a 7+ acre lake to serve as the course's primary irrigation supply. Phase IV - The golf course is closed and the reconstruction/restoration of the remainder of the golf course is conducted by Kris Spence in 2008.
During this time the city of Charlotte did proceed with their infrastructure upgrades and route both a water main and sewer main through portions of the property. This work would have taken place regardless whether or not Carolina Golf Club elected to perform any course renovation work. The club was able to work together with the city to coordinate the efforts and thus all city disturbances were complete prior to Kris and his team reworking those golf holes. In all it was an amazing project and an amazing transformation... hard to believe it has been 5 years since things wrapped up. I feel blessed to be part of such a special project and I continue to enjoy watching this golf course mature and evolve.
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Hi Joe,
I emailed you a few pdf's directly. I hope they help!