Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tom_Doak on January 17, 2008, 09:05:14 AM
-
All the threads about minimalism and Old Macdonald have been interesting, because it's clear that no one really understands what has to be done to build even the most natural of golf courses. I don't think Old Macdonald is going to take more than twice the earthmoving than Pacific Dunes did, and way less than the typical modern course.
Since God only knows when I will get around to finishing my Pacific Dunes book, I've decided to divulge the Cliffs Notes version of what we had to do to build Pacific Dunes. I'll wait until tomorrow morning to post the answers to give any of you brave enough, time to show what you know. You'll get one point for correctly identifying where we had to cut or fill more than a couple of feet to build a feature, and minus two points for guessing incorrectly. First (and only) prize will be a signed copy of the Pacific Dunes book, or just the manuscript if I don't get it done by the end of this year. :)
Let the fun begin!
-
Tom,
The first thought off the top of my head is that the 13th fairway needed to be shelved in. I'm throwing this out there quickly without looking at a pic so I don't get accused of stealing someone else's idea. ;)
-
I'll say dirt had to be moved on the right side of #2 fairway down to build up the left side.
I'll say that the 5th green had to be cut down a few feet into the dune on the left.
I'll say the left side of the 6th green had to be brought up a few feet into an existing knob.
-
I'll guess the right side of the 16th green had to be brought up a few feet.
I'm thinking quite a bit of cutting took place to create 17th green.
I'll quit while I'm ahead or behind. :D
-
Mike,
You were clearly the guy sitting in the front row of every class, raising your hand for every question and reminding the teacher that there was supposed to be a quiz that day ;)
-
Mike,
You were clearly the guy sitting in the front row of every class, raising your hand for every question and reminding the teacher that there was supposed to be a quiz that day ;)
Actually, I was the buzzed guy in the back of the room slunched down in my seat. Think Spicoli. ;)
-
Wayne: Who went to class?
-
Maybe if they would have offered personally autographed golf books in class Mike would have been valedictorian! ;D
EDIT: BTW, great social experiement Tom, to really find out what is perception vs reality. I find the same problems in maintenance...sometimes people just don't realize how much (or little) goes on behind the scenes to create the finished product.
-
Tom,
I would guess the green complexes at 1, 5, 6, 8, lower 9, 12, 15 and 16, the second hole in general.
To Mike's point, 17 ties in with the slopes on either side really well, so it looks natural to me. I thought you might have brought up the back side of the green, but that slope looked to be there.
Are we supposed to guess for each hole?
Specifying the above:
1 green - cut
3 green - cut the right side fill the entry and left
5 - cut
6 - cut and fill
8 - benched in with fill, so maybe a slight cut into the hillside
9 low green - fill
15- cut front right to fill left side of green
16 - cut to bench in the green site, some fill to bring it up
-
Mr. Cirba:
I score you at minus 7. You did get one thing right.
This is not going to be as "easy" as it sounds, even for people who have worked in the business. Ron Whitten went around with us after opening and I think he would have gotten a negative score.
PS Ran Morrissett is not eligible for this, nor anyone else who has seen the manuscript for my book.
PPS You can't just say a green has been altered, you have to say if it was a cut or fill if you want any credit.
-
Since I've never been there, the only thing this is going off of is photos of the place...
Cut:
3rd Green
10th Green
13th Green
Fill:
3rd Tee
6th Green
11th Tee
18th Tee
-
Come on, Mike. At least today, you come across more as the teacher's pet than a stoner. Are you telling me if you took a course in golf course architecture that you wouldn't have been the AV aid and volunteering to clap the erasers outside every day after Mr. Doak's class?
Jerry,
I went to all my classes, through high school anyway. Hey, I didn't know any better. College was a different story 8)
-
Tom,
I'm going to go with holes 1, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18 where you had to do the most earth moving in the fairway and otherwise.
Here are the details:
1 - Fairway short of the green and to the left of the dune nob.
4 - Fill in work next to the edge of the cliff and the dunes left and behind the green.
6 - Fairway area past the bunker on the right was cut as well as the green
9 - Fairway work to create the lower route to the lower hole
10 - Area between tees and greens modified to allow view of the green and fill for the green itself.
11 - Most of Green complex area built into the side of the dune/cliff
14 - Tee box on back side of dune
15 - Green Complex and mounding left of green
17 - The fairway tie in into the green and the green itself
18 - Massive left side bunker and surrounding area.
Kalen
-
Please keep up the guesses, everyone - this has the potential to be very illuminating.
-
The fake dunes between 3 and 12. The large mounding to the left of 15th green. The left side mounds by 14th green. I don't think 8th green is entirely natura; the bowl effect was exagerated.
-
Cut or Fill greens: 3 (little fill to raise the green), 5 (some cut around the green?), 6 (lot of slope to the left and right of the green), 9 lower green (fill), 10 lower tee (cut), 11 green (a wee bit of cut), 14 (fill around the green?), 15 (some fill around the green), 16 (cut), and 18 green (cut and fill).
And a bit of cut on the secret tee on #1 and fill for the secret tee on #4.
-
Tom Doak -
I think that zero points can win this thing, so please accept this empty ballot in the spirit of moderation with which Pacific Dunes was constructed.
-
Pacific Dunes = Old MacKenzie. (Or would that be New MacKenzie?)
-
Has the name New Macdonald been considered?
-
Or how about different arrangements of "Charles Blair Macdonald:"
*A Droller Bacchanal Dims
*A Child Romancers Ballad
*A Mad Chronicler's Ballad
*Ah, Acclaimed Rolls Brand (for supporters)
*Acclaimed Rolls Brand, Ha! (for detractors)
and
Bar Mechanical, Add Rolls
Mark
-
Mike,
You were clearly the guy sitting in the front row of every class, raising your hand for every question and reminding the teacher that there was supposed to be a quiz that day ;)
Wayne,
I was always the guy sitting behind Cirba....slapping him upside the head or putting gum in his hair when the teacher turned..... ;D
-
wow, look at the speed the senior members of this board come out :-)
good luck folks...if you didn't get your answers in quick all the seemingly easy ones have already been mentioned. though it sounds like many could be wrong.
my guesses:
3) green cut
7) green cut on back and fill on front
14) green cut
16) tee fill
17) green cut on back right, fill on far left
18) fairway fill in second shot landing area
-
Michael Moore stole my initial guess, so now I have to try. Based on the scoring system, I think 0 is a strong score. If this were +2 for correct and -1 for incorrect, then it would encourage a little more risk taking than we are seeing. This is clearly a penal design.
3) Green cut
4) Green cut
9) Fairway approaching left green cut
13) Fairway cut
14) Green fill
18) Green fill
That ought to be good for about minus 9.
-
1st fairway cut, green fill
2nd green fill
3rd green cut off top of mound
4th green cut into dune
5th green fill/bench into hill
6th green cut a little
7th green fill a little
8th green cut
9th upper and lower greens fairly well at grade
10th at grade
11th at grade
12th at grade
13th green fill
14th green cut off top of dune
15th green fill
16th green benched
17th benched and filled
18th fairway filled, green cut
-
I'm going to do the minimalist approach, to see if everyone is guessing too much ;)
Green cut at 3.
That's it. I would have gone with Michael Moore's ballot but he thought of it first.
-
Mark Bourgeois,
You need help. But, wait until you're no longer a member of this group, as I am enjoying the trips you are taking!
Joe
-
wow, look at the speed the senior members of this board come out :-)
good luck folks...if you didn't get your answers in quick all the seemingly easy ones have already been mentioned. though it sounds like many could be wrong.
my guesses:
3) green cut
7) green cut on back and fill on front
14) green cut
16) tee fill
17) green cut on back right, fill on far left
18) fairway fill in second shot landing area
and by senior he means number of posts.... not age!! ;D
-
FIll:
14 green on right
16 green on right
17 green on back/left
-
1 Fill green
2 cut fairway on left
3 cut green
6 cut right side of green to create steepness
8 fill green
9 fill upper green, lower green au naturelle
11 cut green
13 fill left side of fairway to create chute for aggressive driving lane
17 fill front right of short of green
-
and cut number 2 green.
-
I'm laughing - I'm not allowed to enter - and yet I would likely finish below Mr. Moore's entry if I did!
-
Tom,
Sponsor me a round over at PD, and then I'll divulge my guesses ;)
B
-
Ian,
Why are you ineligible? Have you seen the manuscript? We all want to see your entry!
-
Tom,
Sponsor me a round over at PD, and then I'll divulge my guesses ;)
B
Puhleez, dude, cough up the $100 and do it yourself.
An amazing value in the big picture....
-
Easy for you to say, Michael. You're not a poor student...
:P
B
-
Mr. Cirba:
I score you at minus 7. You did get one thing right.
See Wayne and Mike Young....
That's my normal academic record!!
So much for being the teacher's pet. :'( :-[ ;)
-
Mr. Cirba:
I score you at minus 7. You did get one thing right.
See Wayne and Mike Young....
That's my normal academic record!!
So much for being the teacher's pet. :'( :-[ ;)
Mike,
The point of being a teacher's pet isn't about being smart, it's about getting a passing grade even though you're stupid.
Don't ask me how I know....
:)
-
3rd green cut.
4th green cut.
8th green fill.
I thoucht there was something wrong with MPC when he got -7 but trying to deciper this from pictures made me want o play PD more. There is no other course that this exercise would be as hard for apart for other than TOC, CP and RCD's front 9.
-
I haven't been there but the chance to win a signed book is too good not to have a guess.
Based on photos I will guess that the whole course was raised 25 feet to protect it from the Ocean. The top 10 feet of sand was removed, 25 feet of rock fill placed across the site and then the sand replaced using GPS equipment to ensure the exact contouring that existed previously.
-
I suppose I'll take a guess from pictures, just to give myself a shot...
2) some fill in center of fairway
3) fill right side of green
4) fill for bunkers fronting left green side
6) some cut right side of fairway
10) fill to create green
13) cut right side of green
14) cut to create green
17) cut right, fill left to shelf green
Really, could be anything. Some areas could just have a little de-veg, some look re-grassed. It all messes with your head slightly, as far as a competition like this goes. I think the fact that guesses are all over the place speaks volumes.
B
-
4 green cut
14 tee and green cut
Big left fairway bunker on 18 cut
There are a couple of other spots I'd speculate on but those are the three I'm confident in.
-
Tom:
I don't have the slightest idea....I will enter my test completely blank and bet that 0 points will beat everyone else's negative score...kind of like bidding 1 dollar on the Price Is Right....
So here is my answer:
:-X Lest I open mouth, insert foot and go negativo...
Bart ;D
-
Zero points is not going to win it, there are already some positive scores.
The highest possible score is something like +28, if you count any instance of a cut or fill of three feet or more. It would be lower than that if you only count where we trucked dirt in or out, and call everything else "shaping" instead of "earthmoving", which is how it would show up in most architect's budgets.
-
Easy for you to say, Michael. You're not a poor student...
:P
I am no longer a student, 'tis true, but I am not a rich man either!
Cough up the duckets, Boardman, stay in the yurts. Get there.
-
Maybe a couple less trips to the pub and a road trip to the coast later this spring is in order... I'm not stranger to yurts! lol, thanks Michael ;) ;D
-
Maybe a couple less trips to the pub and a road trip to the coast later this spring is in order... I'm not stranger to yurts! lol, thanks Michael ;) ;D
Don't pay any attention to Michael. He's a sucker for the Veblen effect.
;)
-
Though it's been a long time since I [briefly] majored in financial economics, that made me laugh. Nevertheless, he's probably still right... :)
-
Tom Doak
Thanks for giving us a chance to play this game and for the hints.
Here are my guesses:
1 Cut in front, fill toward back of green
2 Cut left of green to provide fill for green
3 Fill green
4 Cut left side of green
5 Fill left side of green
7 Fill at green to build up back
8 Fill at back of green
10 Cut right side of green
11 Cut at back of green, Fill at front of green
12 Fill left side of green
13 Fill to enable the bunkers guarding the right side of the fairway, inside the dune
14 Cut or fill to create teeing areas
15 Filled-in green
16 Cut left side and in front of green, fill right side of green
17 Fill to create sloped green
18 Cut in landing zone in front of bunker left
18 Fill to create bunkers in front of green
-
OK, I'll try. Fun idea.
18 - Cut landing area in fairway
17 - Fill left side of green
14 - Cut for the green
11 - Cut sand out of green area
7 - Looks like a fill in the fairway
6 - Flatten out the green and rear slope down to 2 green (cut and fill)
4 - Cut green, fill fairway or approach in a couple of places
3 - No idea, but I sure like it!
One last guess - Sand from 2 tee used to fill 1 green area.
-
Easy,
it's all natural, isn't it.
-
I'll be brave or foolish...
1 Fill in some of the first part of the fairway, a little cut on top of the hill. A little fill on the back and left of the green.
2 Benched tees. Fill in the middle and right of fairway. Ridge developed for the bunker in front of the green.
3 Green cut right side, fill used for left.
4 Cut into the dune for the snack shack/restroom. Some fill of small runoffs for fairway. Green cut into dune. Dune created for middle bunker. Dune extended for the closer bunker (30 yards out?)
5 I think 5 has shaping, but nothing major.
6 I think some of the 6th fairway might have been push up to build the 9th and the wall you see on the 6th tee. I get the feeling a lot of dirt was moved between these two holes. The right/back fall off of the green seems like it might have been dug out.
7 I think 7 might have a little fill in the fairway, but not much. Also, the green site is pretty natural.
8 Hill to the right/back of green is built up.
9 Tee box built up. Fairway built with big fill. Developed dune wall. Ridge between upper and lower build with cut from lower fairway.
10 Big cut in dune for green location.
11 Big fill for 11 green from cut at 10.
12 Dune/hill created for left front of green.
13 Fairway fill of small ravines. big cut of dune to create green site.
14 Dune cut off to create green site. Benched tees.
15 Raised tees, built up green site towards back dune.
16 Benched and filled green.
17 Big cut and fill to extend green to the left.
18 Fill of ravine in front of 18 tee, cut of left bunker with built up fairway. Dune built behind 18.
Wow, what a bunch of guesses! It was fun to think about it and try to remember all the various connecting hills and valleys. I'll look a little harder when I play it in about 3 1/2 weeks!
-
The correct answers to my pop quiz follow.
I don’t have time to grade papers this weekend, so I encourage you to grade yourselves and report positive scores here. I’ll double-check the math of the person who claims the highest score.
Here goes!
Hole 1: 1) Cut ridge at top of landing area and softened some contours. 2) Filled green about six feet in the middle to bridge the gap between two ridges.
Hole 2: 3) There were a couple of small cuts and fills on the bank up to the landing area, to reduce ruggedness and give better visibility for short hitters.
Hole 3: 4) Green is about five feet of cut, with most of the fill going to soften the approach. 5) Also cut away a large dune on the right side of the green to create space for the back-right pin placement.
Hole 4: 6) Cut away dune on left to build green. 7) Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand as it was blown down to sandstone.
Hole 5: No real earthwork. The lower right half of the green is maybe 3 feet of fill taken from the right side bunker.
Hole 6: 8) Middle tee is ten feet of fill over the top of a bury pit. 9) Contours of fairway and approach are pretty natural, but we had to dig a drainage line 18 feet deep through the gap about 70 yards short of the green and then put it all back together. 10) Filled significantly at the back left of the green … not the green itself but the bank going down behind the deep bunker. It was a sheer drop all along the left of the green when we started.
Hole 7: No real earthwork. Some of the green is created from fill out of the bunkers on the left.
Hole 8: 11) Cut off the end of one of the ridges on the left sticking into the landing area. 12) Left half of green is four feet of fill, right side close to natural grade.
Hole 9: 13) Major cuts and fills at top of landing area to try and hold some balls up on top. 14) Both greens are pretty natural, although we had to fill a bit at the back of the upper green which fell away too quickly.
Hole 10: 15) Green is about four feet of fill.
Hole 11: 16) Green is about four feet of cut.
Hole 12: 17) Ridges on left (protecting tee #4) are all fill, as is the back of the bunker short of the green. 18) Like #4, entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand.
Hole 13: 19) Crest of landing area is cut three feet and left-to-right slope softened. 20) Like #4 and 12, entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand.
Hole 14: 21) Green is 10-15 feet of cut from top of dune ridge. 22) Left side of hole is 5-10 feet of fill to make recovery shots possible.
Hole 15: 23) Green was cut 4-5 feet but keeping size and shape of plateau. 24) Tees are filled … I think these are the only tees on the course with significant fill.
Hole 16: 25) Cut a ridge 150 yards off the tee so you could see into the fairway, and filled the bowl in front of the tee with the dirt to help short hitters. 26) Green is softened a bit but essentially natural. Fairway contours are natural.
Hole 17: 27) Filled back left of green 6-8 feet to form right-to-left shape … the ridge originally ran pretty much along the line of play with a DEEP hollow all along left side. 28) Filled swale at back right of green 4-6 feet.
Hole 18: 29) Filled a bit to create upper (blue) tee, although there was a bit of a shelf there already. 30) Cut down ridge behind the huge bunker in the fairway, and used fill to create fairway around the back. This was easily a ten-foot cut and fill. 31) Filled back right half of green 6-8 feet … the left entrance is natural grade but it fell into a deep hollow on the right, so it took us some time to decide this was the green site.
So the perfect score would be + 31 points.
I don’t want to leave the impression that Pacific Dunes is not a minimalist course – we left alone a thousand things and changed 31 of them, nearly all of which was done to create greens or to fix an unmowable part of a fairway. But the truth is that even the courses which are called minimalist require a lot of careful work to turn them into a golf course – and a lot more than most of you are aware.
-
I have a potential +3 depending upon your interpretation of my responses. Your comments were much more specific, so I don't know how you'll score for sure.
-
I make my score 10 wrong guesses, 9 correct -11
or 8 wrong 11 correct (-5) if I count earthmoving without correctly identifying a cut or fill
Interesting to know how much fill went into 4, 12, and 13--thanks again for the data, Tom
-
My +1 is definitely going to score well. Probably not win, though.
-
1st fairway cut, green fill +2
2nd green fill -2
3rd green cut off top of mound +1
4th green cut into dune +1
5th green fill/bench into hill +1
6th green cut a little +1
7th green fill a little +1
8th green cut -2
9th upper and lower greens fairly well at grade +2
10th at grade -2 (this surprises me)
11th at grade -2 (this too)
12th at grade +1
13th green fill +1
14th green cut off top of dune +1
15th green fill -2 (this is a shock too)
16th green benched +1
17th benched and filled +1
18th fairway filled, green cut net 0
I figure myself for 4 pts.
-
I recused myself from the exercise because Mr. Doak had previously given me some information about this (eg the green work at #6). I probably wouldn't have done very well though. I'm quite surprised that there wasn't any cutting done on the right side of #8 green (Hole 8: ...Left half of green is four feet of fill, right side close to natural grade. ) . I would have guessed the left side had some fill but was sure the right side would have been cut to create the wonderful contours there. Bottom line: what an amazing site for a golf course!
-
I think I have a score of 0 or plus 1, depending on interpretation.
Very fun exercise indeed! Can't wait to look at it when I play again in March.
-
If the point structure had been setup for equal weight between correct and incorrect guesses, then I'd be in the positive numbers. ;D
However, on most holes I guessed one thing right and one thing wrong, and my ship sunk :(
-
3pts
-
OK, I'll try. Fun idea.
18 - Cut landing area in fairway (+1)
17 - Fill left side of green (+1)
14 - Cut for the green (+1/2)
11 - Cut sand out of green area (+1)
7 - Looks like a fill in the fairway (-2)
6 - Flatten out the green and rear slope down to 2 green (cut and fill) (-2)
4 - Cut green, fill fairway or approach in a couple of places (+2)
3 - No idea, but I sure like it!
One last guess - Sand from 2 tee used to fill 1 green area. (-2, +1)
Using the following scoring, I'll give myself +1/2 points.
-
Hole 1: 1) Cut ridge at top of landing area and softened some contours. 2) Filled green about six feet in the middle to bridge the gap between two ridges.
1 Fill in some of the first part of the fairway, a little cut on top of the hill. A little fill on the back and left of the green.
+2
Hole 2: 3) There were a couple of small cuts and fills on the bank up to the landing area, to reduce ruggedness and give better visibility for short hitters.
2 Benched tees. Fill in the middle and right of fairway. Ridge developed for the bunker in front of the green.
+1 and -1
Hole 3: 4) Green is about five feet of cut, with most of the fill going to soften the approach. 5) Also cut away a large dune on the right side of the green to create space for the back-right pin placement.
3 Green cut right side, fill used for left.
+2
Hole 4: 6) Cut away dune on left to build green. 7) Entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand as it was blown down to sandstone.
4 Cut into the dune for the snack shack/restroom. Some fill of small runoffs for fairway. Green cut into dune. Dune created for middle bunker. Dune extended for the closer bunker (30 yards out?)
+1 and -2
Hole 5: No real earthwork. The lower right half of the green is maybe 3 feet of fill taken from the right side bunker.
5 I think 5 has shaping, but nothing major.
+1
Hole 6: Middle tee is ten feet of fill over the top of a bury pit. 9) Contours of fairway and approach are pretty natural, but we had to dig a drainage line 18 feet deep through the gap about 70 yards short of the green and then put it all back together. 10) Filled significantly at the back left of the green … not the green itself but the bank going down behind the deep bunker. It was a sheer drop all along the left of the green when we started.
6 I think some of the 6th fairway might have been push up to build the 9th and the wall you see on the 6th tee. I get the feeling a lot of dirt was moved between these two holes. The right/back fall off of the green seems like it might have been dug out.
-2
Hole 7: No real earthwork. Some of the green is created from fill out of the bunkers on the left.
7 I think 7 might have a little fill in the fairway, but not much. Also, the green site is pretty natural.
(+1)
Hole 8: 11) Cut off the end of one of the ridges on the left sticking into the landing area. 12) Left half of green is four feet of fill, right side close to natural grade.
8 Hill to the right/back of green is built up.
-2
Hole 9: 13) Major cuts and fills at top of landing area to try and hold some balls up on top. 14) Both greens are pretty natural, although we had to fill a bit at the back of the upper green which fell away too quickly.
9 Tee box built up. Fairway built with big fill. Developed dune wall. Ridge between upper and lower build with cut from lower fairway.
+1 and -1
Hole 10: 15) Green is about four feet of fill.
10 Big cut in dune for green location.
-1
Hole 11: 16) Green is about four feet of cut.
11 Big fill for 11 green from cut at 10.
-1
Hole 12: 17) Ridges on left (protecting tee #4) are all fill, as is the back of the bunker short of the green. 18) Like #4, entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand.
12 Dune/hill created for left front of green.
+1 and -1
Hole 13: 19) Crest of landing area is cut three feet and left-to-right slope softened. 20) Like #4 and 12, entire hole capped with 3 feet of sand.
13 Fairway fill of small ravines. big cut of dune to create green site.
-2
Hole 14: 21) Green is 10-15 feet of cut from top of dune ridge. 22) Left side of hole is 5-10 feet of fill to make recovery shots possible.
14 Dune cut off to create green site. Benched tees.
+1 and -1
Hole 15: 23) Green was cut 4-5 feet but keeping size and shape of plateau. 24) Tees are filled … I think these are the only tees on the course with significant fill.
15 Raised tees, built up green site towards back dune.
-1 and +1
Hole 16: 25) Cut a ridge 150 yards off the tee so you could see into the fairway, and filled the bowl in front of the tee with the dirt to help short hitters. 26) Green is softened a bit but essentially natural. Fairway contours are natural.
16 Benched and filled green.
-2
Hole 17: 27) Filled back left of green 6-8 feet to form right-to-left shape … the ridge originally ran pretty much along the line of play with a DEEP hollow all along left side. 28) Filled swale at back right of green 4-6 feet.
17 Big cut and fill to extend green to the left.
-1 and +1
Hole 18: 29) Filled a bit to create upper (blue) tee, although there was a bit of a shelf there already. 30) Cut down ridge behind the huge bunker in the fairway, and used fill to create fairway around the back. This was easily a ten-foot cut and fill. 31) Filled back right half of green 6-8 feet … the left entrance is natural grade but it fell into a deep hollow on the right, so it took us some time to decide this was the green site.
18 Fill of ravine in front of 18 tee, cut of left bunker with built up fairway. Dune built behind 18.
+1 and -2
Total = -6 or -5 (I think I’ll keep my day job!)
It will be fun to look for these in a few weeks.
-
Michael:
Sorry, but I don't quite agree with your scoring. On hole 13, the green is not filled ... we actually cut the green 3 feet, and then capped it with sand to return to grade. And on hole 18, you were right about the fill in the fairway (sort of) but wrong about the green, so that's a minus 1, not zero. I have you at +2 points.
Which makes Matthew the leader in the clubhouse. Not bad for a 15-year-old who lives 6000 miles away and has only seen the course in pictures!
-
Tom - Does that mean you don't agree with my scoring? I had myself at a potential +3.
-
Which makes Matthew the leader in the clubhouse. Not bad for a 15-year-old who lives 6000 miles away and has only seen the course in pictures!
That's no fair. His answer is too simple!
-
Tim B:
I didn't see your score because you didn't analyze it. However, you got #9 wrong (no cut on the left side approach), and your answer for #14 is hazy (the green is actually cut from the top of a dune, although all the fill went to the left side). You must have given yourself credit for one or the other of these, so I think you're runner-up.
Still waiting to see if somebody else scored higher without checking back here. I'm off to the Dominican Republic tomorrow, will check back here when I return.
-
Let's hope you have a site as good as Pacific Dunes down there!
Did you think about leaving the ridge in front of the 16th tee so there would be another blind tee shot, or was one enough?
-
Bill:
No, I never thought about leaving the dune we took out on #16, for a couple of reasons:
a. It blocked the view down the left side of the hole, which would have caused more people to go right off the tee, where most of the trouble is;
b. We loved the little ripples in the fairway beyond that, so we wanted everybody to see them from the tee; and
c. I thought the hole would be a great hole but would probably already be controversial enough because the second shot is so hard, so compounding that with a blind tee shot would've been too much.
-
Since I've never been there, the only thing this is going off of is photos of the place...
Cut:
3rd Green +1
10th Green -2
13th Green -2
Fill:
3rd Tee -2
6th Green +1
11th Tee -2
18th Tee +1
-5
-
Bill:
No, I never thought about leaving the dune we took out on #16, for a couple of reasons:
a. It blocked the view down the left side of the hole, which would have caused more people to go right off the tee, where most of the trouble is;
b. We loved the little ripples in the fairway beyond that, so we wanted everybody to see them from the tee; and
c. I thought the hole would be a great hole but would probably already be controversial enough because the second shot is so hard, so compounding that with a blind tee shot would've been too much.
Fair enough, that's three very good reasons. And yes, it is a great hole, especially if you have a hard time counting the optional ways to play it.
-
Michael:
Sorry, but I don't quite agree with your scoring. On hole 13, the green is not filled ... we actually cut the green 3 feet, and then capped it with sand to return to grade. And on hole 18, you were right about the fill in the fairway (sort of) but wrong about the green, so that's a minus 1, not zero. I have you at +2 points.
Busted! Well, I guess that settles it. I'll happily buy the book if it ever gets finished!!!!
-
John Kirk, are you sure you are not my Physics teacher posting under a fake name ;) Seriously, Tom thanks very much from me and on behalf everyone on this board for doing this and if you feel my answers are too simple I'll be happy to forfeit. John if you are my Physics teacher the reason I didn't go into detail is I remembered while doing this I had course-work for you ;D
Bill:
No, I never thought about leaving the dune we took out on #16, for a couple of reasons:
a. It blocked the view down the left side of the hole, which would have caused more people to go right off the tee, where most of the trouble is;
Tom, would it have influened your desision if this was a members course so they could chose to take on the blind shot to get an easier 2nd shot?
-
Tom,
You're right. I gave myself credit for #9. You mentioned both fill and cut in the fairway, so I thought I might be right about cut on the left side.
It looks like Matthew wins, but you ought to sign all of our copies when we purchase them as long as we've been waiting for this book. I remember an email from you in 2004 or early 2005 telling me that I should have the book available before my June 2005 trip to Bandon.
-
Dear Matthew,
I am making reverse fun of Eric Terhorst, Michael Dugger, and others like myself who tried to give lots of answers, despite the double penalty of a wrong answer. Mostly Eric Terhorst, who is otherwise a brilliant man.
I just looked at a photo of Royal County Down a few minutes ago. That's a handsome part of the world, young man. It's all downhill from here.
John
-
I just looked at a photo of Royal County Down a few minutes ago. That's a handsome part of the world, young man. It's all downhill from here.
John
John,
I feel because of the area I have been brought up in I set my standards for Aesthetics are probably too high both on and off the golf course. For example I fail to see how the majority of Scottish links can be considered scenic or aesthetically pleasing. I feel if I choose to follow a career in Golf Course Architecture this inbuilt fussiness over looks could help because I have never seen a golf course in which that a couple of easy steps would greatly enhance their aesthetic qualities. As an example Kilkeel near RCD has AMAZING views over the sea and mountains but chooses to block these with trees but keeps open ugly views of the road and town.
All the Best;
Matthew
-
Dear Matthew,
I am making reverse fun of Eric Terhorst, Michael Dugger, and others like myself who tried to give lots of answers, despite the double penalty of a wrong answer. Mostly Eric Terhorst, who is otherwise a brilliant man.
Now THAT's funny. John, you should have taken me up on that side bet! :D
-
Tom,
Is there any earthwork on the course that couldn’t be achieved in the ‘golden age’? Is there anything you were able to do that say Mackenzie wouldn’t have be able to do?
Matt
-
For example I fail to see how the majority of Scottish links can be considered scenic or aesthetically pleasing.
You might feel differently if you spent significant time with parkland courses.
-
For example I fail to see how the majority of Scottish links can be considered scenic or aesthetically pleasing.
You might feel differently if you spent significant time with parkland courses.
Yes, I am in a sentance a spoilted brat when it comes to scenery ;D
Some Scottish Links are beautiful like Turburry but they in general they are not at the same level as those here in Ireland.
In regard to parkland layouts the lack of aesthetic interest this is partly to due to the fact that more ‘outside the box’ thinking is required on a parkland layout to make it pleasing to the eye not less as I read one architect. When Pine Valley, Augusta or NGLA was being built they could of all been good parkland layouts but one of the things that makes them great is the fact that they stunned the ‘cookie-cutter’ Image that most course open in but took risk and brought unique Ideas to please the eye.
Matt
-
Matthew:
If you insist on working only on projects with scenery comparable with home, you are going to have a very short career.
As to your question about earthwork, we did some things that Tom Morris would never have considered, but nothing that they wouldn't have done by 1925. There are two caveats, though ...
1) Not many older projects would have had the financial wherewithal to consider capping the sandstone along the 4th and 13th holes instead of building holes a bit more inland, and
2) Pacific Dunes would have been tough to build at all without an EXTENSIVE irrigation system, because they go five months of the summer with dry, windy conditions and NO rain. We did manage to build something at The Sheep Ranch without fairway irrigation, but the soils were a bit different up there ... building in the dunes would have been very tough in 1925.
-
Tom,
While I agree with the general premise that most courses wouldn't have the funds to do extensive earthmoving, many did and I have always been of the opinion that there was more earthmoving done than most get credit for.
Its not just Lido and a few others that prove it could be done. Look at other earthworks of the times, like railroad building (esp. raising tracks after 1900 to minimize traffic conflicts) to see that engineers weren't adverse to moving earth when required, and sometimes lots of it. Granted, golf may not have justified the expense, but most Golden Age courses were built for men of means and they probably had the same spare no expense attitude that Trump, Wynn, etc. have now.
I think the earthmoving was different back then. For example, I think I have seen the exact same fw contours at Beverly 11 and White Bear YC No. 2 from Ross. I think both were graded for visibility but the cuts came from the nearby roughs, rather than a central irrigation lake.
I see similar cuts and fills in LM work, at Wakonda, among others. I think the Winged Foot Open program listed some construction quantities for that course, and if I recall right, the earthmoving was like 60,000 CY. Nothing like today but nothing to sneeze at, either, unless you have a cold!
Getting back to Pac Dunes, it sounds like your philosophy of moving it only when needed and moving it short distances sounds a lot like the Golden Age. But, then again, I think most of us build the same way, mostly because on our budgets, we have to, whether we want to or not.
Jay Morrish calls himself a (retired) necessitist.
-
Jeff:
Sorry, but I don't believe we are all doing it the same way.
When I went around Colbert Hills a couple of years back, it was 38 degrees with a wind chill of 25, so I didn't get to take away much. But I did notice that it seemed like nearly all the landing areas had a bit of fill to them. I noticed it on a par-5 which had to go across a drainage area with its second shot [unfortunately, I don't remember what hole # as we didn't go in order] ... it looked like the left side of the landing area had to transition back from about three feet of fill, but looking at the outside contours, I couldn't imagine why you'd needed the fill to start with, other than there was so much shaping otherwise that the natural slopes would have stood out as being different.
I agree with you that many Golden Age projects did do more earthmoving than advertised ... but most of it was of the scale that could be done with a D-6 in the shaping budget on today's projects.
My goal when I started High Pointe was to keep scrapers off my golf courses entirely -- I think we've only used them on 3 or 4 projects out of 25 to date. The traffic impact alone is reason enough to avoid them!
-
Well, there are differences, in both scale and technique, but I generally try to build as many greens as cut and fill balances as possible and am actually working on same for tees rather than placing fills automatically on flattish ground. And, I like to keep a scraper around for those last minute "just in case changes" and to transport topsoil around if needed.
You could be talking about 10 or 1. In both cases, the areas near the creek had to be leveled from natural slope to keep the balls in the fw. Even at that, I don't think we got the right side of number 1 level enough. As far as fw shaping, we visited other Kansas Zoysia courses (mostly Flint Hills) on bedrock and determined that the fw's had to have at least a 4.5% pitch for drainage, or the sod would stay wet, and actually set it at about 6% to allow for contractor error. Actually, I think Zoysia would hold a ball on a cross slope of up to 10% so we might have been a bit conservative there and causes extra grading.
As to the other fw's, we trenched the irrigation in rock, so we didn't need 3' fills for that, but most areas did need to be covered with at least some topsoil from various areas around the course.
Did you ever look at those Ross fws' I mentioned, and do you have the same opinion? I think those were horse and scooped.
Once, Danny Maples was showing slides of how the horse and scoop worked, and noted that if the driver hit a stump, he could flip right into the horses behind. I commented that we don't use horse and scoop anymore, but we can still run into some real horses asses during construction nonetheless!
So, in some ways, the more things change, the more they stay the same!
-
But I did notice that it seemed like nearly all the landing areas had a bit of fill to them.
Do you mind if I ask how you noticed this? By comparing it to surrounds, or something else?
-
Tom, thanks for the interesting answer for the earth moving question.
I failed to make this clear in previous that my grievance was not with the site but how the visual potential is exposed.
Matt