Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Robert Mercer Deruntz on September 11, 2007, 10:48:22 PM
-
Better known today as Glen Head CC. The official club web site has a wonderful first person account of how the club came to exist today. This is a wonderful Devereaux Emmett course with some great holes. It is very much in need of a restoration--especially a significant tree removal program. Due to a late tee off, the last couple of holes are missing, but will be added sometime in the future.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0806.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0807.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0808.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0809.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0810.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0812.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0814.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0820.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0811.jpg)
These two photos show how wonderfully Emmett used the ridge as the greensight
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0818.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0815.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0816.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0817.)
This is the 7th, a downhill 220 yard hole with a very severe dropoff on the right which it shares with the previous par 3
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0821.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0817.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0819.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0822.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0813.jpg)
-
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0823.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0824.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0825.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0828.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0829.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0830.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0831.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0832.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0834.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0923.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0920.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0918.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0922.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0914.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0921.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0911.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0915.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0916.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/rsfpar/PICT0917.jpg)
-
It is very much in need of a restoration--especially a significant tree removal program.
Hello Robert. Thanks for the pictures.
None of the tee shots appear particularly constrained by the trees to me.
There are a number of different species used. If there's a defect in the trees position/location/visuals, it seems that the tree heights are too similar and perhaps the greens might too frequently be in the shadows of the trees. What trees do you think should be removed?
-
With all due respect Joe, the first picture has in excess of 100 trees that need to be removed. Most every course in the Met area would benefit from tree removal.
-
Robert,
great pictures. The second green especially is an excellent example of how to make a man made green site look balanced and fit into the landscape. Some of the bunkering looked a bit goofy on some of the last few visible photos but maybe that was just the light.
-
the first picture has in excess of 100 trees that need to be removed.
I believe the first picture doesn't show 100 trees. Some of the trees separate the practice range from the first hole. Given the land constraint, I think it's a better visual to hide or obscure the range.
Here's a nice aerial:
Glen Head 1st hole Oblique (http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qt6fsx8vyg4t&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1748633&sp=Point.qt61sf8vyvj9_Glen%20Cove%20Rd%2C%20Glen%20Head%2C%20NY%2011545%2C%20United%20States___&encType=1)
Could you be more specific? Do you think all of the interior trees should be removed?
Most every course in the Met area would benefit from tree removal.
Probably, but deciding on all or some or selected or just a few is a decision for the memberships, and sometimes unfortunately, the planning boards and town councils.
-
Robert,
George Holland, the historian of the Creek Club was very helpful in providing us what little archival history of the development of the Women's National golf course, now Glen Head.
While Devereux Emmet was retained in the mid 1920s to manage the property, payroll records record payments to him, there are two large payments to Toomey and Flynn for “additional golf course construction” work. These represent the only payments made during those years for golf course construction. The first payment was $7,500.00 made on December 15, 1926 for work done earlier in the month. A second payment of $7,575.00 was made on April 22, 1927 for work done earlier in the month. Earlier records show a single large payment for golf course construction work was made out to Devereux Emmet in the amount of $39,000.00 for his golf course construction work in August of 1923.
The nature of Flynn’s work is unknown. The payments indicate the construction project was a significant one. It remains to be seen if there were any design plans provided by Flynn.
If you look at late 1930s and early 1940s aerials of Women's National and nearby St. George's GCC, the styles of the two courses are remarkably different with St. George's looking more like his other courses. Its hard to say what happened there at this point, but I don't think the complete story is close to being understood.
-
How specific do you want me to be on the tree issue on this hole?
How about on the right remove trees 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,8...47
I count 47 trees up the right through the dogleg. Cut down 35, the course will still be "wooded" ??? and the better trees can be highlighted. Even with the range I would do the same thing up the left. I never said it wasn't the clubs decision but if they want "protection" they would get more if they put up a barrier like exists along the LIE. ;D
Doesn't the bunker on the left look a little funny? Is there a purpose for it?
I prefer vistas within a golf course over wall of trees where it is impossible to even identify and particularly speciman tree because they all are obscured.
As far as the local authorities. tell them you will keep the trees but build houses and see what the answer is. :D
-
Looks like a lovely piece of property. A lot of nice golf holes, too. And, of course, I agree that there's enough firewood there for the entire county.
-
They have removed some trees for sunlight considerations. However, as my side view picture of #8 shows, they have kept some of the worst framing trees. This green is supposed to be a skyline green. It is impossible to capture with a picture, but it is a reverse redan style green that fits very naturally into the hill. As for the Flynn connection, I could see how he might have done some of the preliminary work. Most Emmett courses I've played, begin with a rather benign hole--this is one of the hardest opening holes on Long Island.
-
RMD,
Flynn was paid for work that was done in 1926 and 1927; years after the initial payments to Emmet in 1923. I don't see how the work Flynn was paid had anything to do with preliminary work. The amount paid to Flynn was nearly half the amount paid to Emmet. I don't know how that translates to work on the ground, but it would be significant in any case. Could it be design, construction or a combination? I don't think anyone knows, but the 1940 bunkering around the entire course is vastly different than other Emmet courses. One could speculate that the 18-hole course wasn't finished at once and additional work was done to complete the project. Another scenario is that the existing course was redesigned. I wish we could get a clearer understanding. We may never know what the architectural evolution is.
-
The reason the first hole does not strike you as anything like Emmet is because its not an Emmet hole. The original first green and hole played shorter and to the right of the current first green (closer to the second tee). If I remember correct from my research, todays first green was done by Tull, but I am not 100% on that. However, I am certain that the first hole has been significantly changed.
-
Chris,
Has your research turned up anything at all on Flynn's efforts at Women's National/Glen Head? What year(s) was Tull on site?
-
What about Marion Hollins? What input did she have
into the design?
-
.
-
Marion Hollins essentially started the Womens National golf club. Apparently the idea for it came from Hollins.
For those who aren't much aware of Marion Hollins, she was one helluva athlete in more sports than just golf. In golf, she won the US Amateur championship.
For a few months I had the book that contained the origins of the Womens National right here at home. This was not a book written about the club, it was the Womens National GC's own book containing all the papers of its origins. Unfortunately it had nothing about the architecture of the golf course---it only contained reams and reams of legal documents containing incorporation papers and membership rolls and things pertaining to membership.
I grew up in Glen Head, Long Island about five miles from the Womens National and if there is anything I really do recognize its those names contained on those membership rolls of the Womens National.
The fact is just about every single big time name in Long Island from that time is contained in those early membership rolls. It's amazing.
And the other thing that's really amazing to me is just how independent some of those women like Marion Hollins and those on those membership rolls were in relation to golf at that time. They were 1000 percent more independent than women are today in golf.
I don't really know why that was----whether it was because they understood they just weren't very welcome in some other clubs compared to today and for that reason they just went out and did their own independent thing in this way back then.
The fact is the very idea of strictly women's golf courses was so much more prevalent back then compared to today.
Rand Jerris, the USGA Museum/Library director has also said he is just amazed at how much went on in strictly women's golf in America in the 1920s and the 1930s.
In the 1940s the Women's National GC wasn't making it and because of its close connection to The Creek Club it became incorporated into The Creek Club.
I'll have to check my records but at that time I think the combined operation was known as "The Forest Creek Club".
Shortly after that The Creek Club sold the club and course formerly known as The Womens National and I guess at that point it became the Glen Head GC.
Surprisingly, there are some older generation people in Long Island today such as my uncle who are still furious at The Creek Club and some significant members like Irving (or was it Charles?) Pratt for being responsible for dumping the Womens National and selling it. They feel a really wonderful, significant and obvious unique (being just women) club got sold down the river by The Creek Club in Locust Valley.
However, long before that point, I think we all know the real principle of the club, Marion Hollins, had moved to California and was on to other things in golf and architecture.
We can also definitely put C.B. Macdonald on site at the creation of Women's National, even if we can't tell what he contributed to the design of the course.
But according to some, and even some in California, if you can put Macdonald on site in a golf project, even for a day or two, than logically that golf course should probably be attributed to Macdonald architecturally. ;)
Some of the details of the creation and design of the Womens National are shrouded in time and they're mysterious now. But one thing I think I can say with 100% certainty is that even if he wanted to or tried to, C.B probably never "got it on", so to speak, with Marion Hollins, for a variety of reasons.
Another piece of trivia is Devie Emmet actually served as the secretary to the Womens National for a time. :)
By the way, C.B. Macdonald had a rather huge residence in Roslyn, Long Island back then, and Roslyn is right next to Glen Head.
-
I'll chime and say that I've played this course many times over the years and generally enjoyed the round. The course, even with all the trees has always been in excellent condition, especially the greens which always roll consistent speed wise and true.
There are at least two holes that I believe are new (maybe 11 and 12), and don't date back to the original design, not sure of the hole numbers but they are on either side of the entrance, a short downhill par 4 that is driveable and a mid length par three with a water hazard down the right side that does not always have water in it. I think at some point the club sold property to what turned out to be an industrial park, hence the new holes. There is also a condo development along another perimeter, I believe the land for this also came from the club, but not at the expense of any holes.
The thing that always struck me about the course, even before I knew it's history as the "women's course" for Creek members was that everything seemed "small" in scale, the greens, the bunkers, the fairways and only a few holes, including the 1st and 18th seemed to have any feel with regards to length. Kind of "dainty", but elegant and at heart, a course for women. I give the founders and the designers credit for capturing that.
The club has had a resurgence with its membership, adding a beautiful pool facility along with upgrades to its clubhouse...it's sad, but that's what it takes in this market to remain competitive. On the positive side, the course has not had to take second bill and continues to be cared for in a positive, nuturing manner.
Last point I would make, and I have mentioned it before, it is amazing to me how many courses in this area seem to have "template" holes that don't relate to anything from Scotland, but are defined by the terrain and how many different designers ended up designing the same holes to accomodate this. Fresh Meadow, Deepdale, Meadowbrook, etc to mention a few, alll have holes that you could not tell which course you were on. Don't get me wrong, good holes, but interchangeable.
-
JMorgan,
Do the holes out there today (other than a couple that were apparently redesigned) match the holes on the list you cited? You say the course was originally designed as two nines and opened with 18 holes in 1924. What do you think Flynn was paid more than $15,000 to do in 1927/27?
I'll take a close look at Craig's photograph and see if I see if the 1940 iteration of the course corresponds to the holes as you describe. Can you please tell me where you obtained your information. Again, I ask you, did you come across anything about Flynn in your research?
-
"The thing that always struck me about the course, even before I knew it's history as the "women's course" for Creek members was that everything seemed "small" in scale, the greens, the bunkers, the fairways and only a few holes, including the 1st and 18th seemed to have any feel with regards to length. Kind of "dainty", but elegant and at heart, a course for women. I give the founders and the designers credit for capturing that."
jsiskind:
You should know that there was definitely nothing dainty about Marion Hollins although apparently there was something quite dainty about little Devie Emmet.
As for Macdonald at that point---it's probably hard to say although by the mid 1920s he may've become a bit conflicted. And that may've been the reason he decided to resign from The Creek Club and hie on out into the middle of the Atlantic to his cottage to write his book.
-
How many Women only golf clubs are there these days? There is one here in Toronto (Ladies' Golf Club of Toronto) that was designed by Stanley Thompson.
-
.
-
JMorgan,
Please reread my post, I never said Tull was involved with this or any other Emmet designs. However, he was involved in some redesign long after Emmet had passed, I think it was in the last 60's. But, As for Tull not being involved in any orginal designs of Emmet, the bunkering on Emmet's courses sure became Tull-esque in the early 30's and less in the line of play.
Wayne,
I do not have anything about Flynn's work there. You do nto have Phillip Young - itis and trying to make every course a Tillinghast (or in this case Flynn) just becuase he used a mower there or removed a bunker?? Just kidding to all involved!!! ;D ;D
All kidding aside, that is a lot of money to be paid back then and I would love to know what he did or did not do?
Chris
-
There is a great images in the Hollins biography of one of the holes from this course.
It looks like a drop shot par three, perhaps the hole with the bethpage looking bunker surrounding the green.
I always really liked that picture. I have hoped someone would build something similar on a new course.
-
I'll ask Craig Disher if I can post his 1940 aerial of the course. I don't know the routing progression but I am guessing that the 6th hole was not a short par 3. There is no Principal's Nose bunker complex either. I do know that the 1st looked nothing like the current 7th at Walton Heath. I guess it would have to be the 7th on the New Course because the 7th on the Old Course at Walton Heath is a par 3. However, maybe the routing progression was changed. I haven't had a chance to study the old photograph in depth with Hollins's descriptions nor compare the 1940 aerial with a modern one. But I'll try.
-
Former Walton Heath Old #7 was a short par 5.
-
This post has produced some interesting news offline. There are some key members at Glen Head who are trying to implement a restoration. There are a few things not worth restoring--the original 1st green and the original 3rd. I was on the phone today with a member who knows the course history very well. The original 1st green was located behind the 5th green and in front of the 2nd tee. Additionally, the 3rd green was somewhere up on the top of the hill where you can see the bunkers. The 4th tee was located somewhat in the vicicnity of the right fairway bunker. This hole was an angled par 3 with cliff depth bunkers on the front right side. An interesting comment was that at one time all greens could be seen from the clubhouse--this is a rolling hilled course. The topography really is awesome. I really believe that after some work that this course will receive a great architectural buzz.
-
RMD,
Can you please number the holes as seen in this GoogleEarth aerial?
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1099/1386784111_c853e8cdfb_o.jpg)
In looking at a 1940 aerial, while there were few trees on the golf course and none that look planted, there was no way you could see all of the greens, especially looking towards the northern portion of the property. There are only a few significant changes between the course today and 1940. One hole was lengthened into a dogleg right par 5, one hole was turned into a dogleg to account for a driving range and it seems like an additional par 3 was added north and slightly east of the range tee.
-
A NY Times article dated January 26, 1922 indicates that the original name of the club was to be Glen Head Golf and Tennis Club announcing that Hollins changed the name to Women's National Golf and Tennis Club. The article later stated that Hollins was sailing to England to get ideas for laying out the club with the assistance of Cecil Leitch. Devereux Emmet was named the golf architect who, "...will lay out the links along the lines proposed by Miss Hollins and her associates."
A November 21, 1922 article discusses the assistance of CBM and Raynor along with the hole yardages planned: 390, 400, 320,185,370,130,365,400,360 (2920);420,325,365,210,410,340,165,375,270 (2860).
-
Order of holes:
1. Bottom right, adjoining the practice range
2. Bottom goiing right to left
3. Bottom left tee going up entire left side of picture
4. Interior right of #3 going parallel to #3
5. Above #2 going parallel towards 1st hole
6. Parallel right of #1 going towards clubhouse
7. Par 3 running parallel to #6 across the lake
8. Running up the picture between #4 and #7 and then
doglegging left
9. Running to back of clubhouse
10. Middle left side of road running up picture
11. Top of picture, running left to right
12. Par 3 running left of 11th green
13. Dogleg left up hill
14. Straightaway hole running towards condo development
15. Straightaway par 5 running parallel to #14 towards
road
16. Short par 3 at top of picture
17. Dogleg right running from behind 16th green to middle
left edge of picture
18. Running from behind 17th green above and parallel to
9th fairway ending in front of clubouse
-
Thanks, Robert. I spoke with Mitch Hantman offline and he clued me in. There's a fellow at the club, Marty Winkelman, that seems to have a good sense of the history. I contacted him and I'll see what turns up.
-
I was fortunate to view an original scorecard. Of note, the routing is pretty much the same--only two holes have siginficantly different yardages--#1 and #3. The first green used to be located next to the 2nd tee and directly behind the 5th green and played 392yards. The 3rd hole was probably fairly straight and played only 360 versus it being a slightly over 500 yard par 5. Because of the old location of the 3rd green, the 4th was a more angled par 3 of 188 yrds versus a straight 200 yarder. The total yardage was 5914 playing to a par of 69. Most notable was that the ladies played the same tees for a par of 77. Really interesting on the card are rules --"Out of bounds loss of distance only" and "Players must not climb sides of bunkers" The card also prominately mentions replacing divots and leveling footprints in bunkers. The card also has a line across that is called a stymie measure.
-
I distinctly recall rewriting a long chapter on this subject years ago, but cannot remember if it was included in the Evangelist of Golf.
Kind of sad that I do not have that information off the top of my cabesa any longer.
I'll state that it is my belief Raynor had far more to do with the golf course than Emmett - who was close to C.B. Macdonald.
I base this belief on that fact that Hollins chose Raynor to design Cypress Point and MPCC (Dunes), not Emmett, who certainly had more time on his hands being a bit of an aristocrat.
We all know the sad tale how that turned out, but the fact remains that her first choice was a Southampton surveyor turned course builder to paint a masterpiece . . . . .
-
Gib, I am not a Raynor expert, but have played almost every course of his in metro-NY. There is only one green, and I have played almost every Raynor, MacDonald, Banks course in metro-NY, that could be considered Raynor-like---#8 which kind of has a reverse Redan feature. If the possibilty of minimalizing Emmett's imput exists, I would be more inclined to attribute architectural features to Flynn. The course is one of the best routed courses you will ever play and it really has a feel of flowing across the hills. I really wonder if another great architect would route this course any differently? I have been fortunate to play most of Emmett's metro-NY courses and believe that he is seriously underappreciated. He was absolutley brilliant in his green complexes, and Glen Head shares these features!
-
"I base this belief on that fact that Hollins chose Raynor to design Cypress Point and MPCC (Dunes), not Emmett, who certainly had more time on his hands being a bit of an aristocrat.
I came from mid-Long Island, and it seems to me Devereaux Emmet was a lot more popular around that area than most of us may realize. Unfortunately for Emmet's legacy he built a bit too much too close to New York City to survive into the future.
Here's a question about Emmet:
He was a good amateur player and I wonder if he accepted money for his architecture before the USGA created the so-called "architect exception" to amateur playing status which I believe happened in the early 1920s?
-
Tom Paul,
I'm betting that Devvie didn't accept design fees as his family was completely loaded...until the Great Depression, that is.
It's amazing he isn't more heralded. He designed courses back in the early 1890s thru almost the next 40 years.
Anyone doubting his genius should take an hour or two to walk around Leatherstocking, circa 1909, and remember that this was prior to NGLA, prior to Merion, prior to Pine Valley, and supposedly part of the bleak, geometric period of American design.
Anyone doubting his genius should also realize that he was great buds with CB Macdonald and actually drew all the design sketches of the great holes overseas that Macdonald utilized in building NGLA. He was also onsite a WHOLE lot during that time.
I dare say that if Macdonald is to be given some modicum of credit for "consulting" at Merion, than Emmett sure as hell deserves a whole lot more than that for what he helped with at NGLA, not to mention the rest of early Long Island golf.
-
Mike,
I was not there, so I'll take your post as factual and not bother to argue the point.
That stated - and I am not minimizing Emmett by any means - why did not Marion Hollins bring him to Cypress Point instead of Raynor?
And though I studied at the feet of the master for years, I really do not know the definitive answer to that question.
-
The chapter on Women's National in George's book is quite minimal when compared the research and depth of the rest of the book. Several pictures, from the old Golf Illustated, an old scorecard (easily obtained) and a lot of conjecture. Please remember it was also infered that Leatherstocking could have been a Raynor course to!??? Emmet had a family farm / home right in Cooperstown, but it might be a Raynor, come on!
As for why Emmet was not taken out to California, can anyone name any courses he did west of the Ohio / PA / WV border that he was on site for. He truly was a man of leisure. I know he did several courses in the Bermuda / the Bahamas, but he vacationed in those areas.
-
Gib,
My point isn't to diminish Raynor or Macdonald at all, but simply to wonder why Emmett isn't more renowned for his significant contributions to early American golf.
-
.
-
Flynn rarely made courses easier. Most of the time he was asked to revise courses, sometimes within a few years of opening, it was to make them more challenging to keep up with advances in technology that were not planned for in original designs.
Here is Emmet's sketch and a 1940 aerial. There are significant differences. Hollins suggested that it was not going to be followed to the letter in all cases but, "...generally speaking the plan will remain the same as presented."
Emmet Plan
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1202/1427888983_0bd36feb65_b.jpg)
1940 aerial (courtesy of Craig Disher) in small size and low resolution
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1150/1427889047_37eb350043.jpg)
-
.
-
"It's amazing he isn't more heralded. He designed courses back in the early 1890s thru almost the next 40 years."
MikeC:
What did he design in the early 1890s?
I thought his first course was Island Golf Links (Garden City CC) which apparently began to be layed out in 1897. After that I think all his other courses were in the 20th century.
But I don't know why he isn't either more heralded or at least given credit for being perhaps the first over here to actually design and build what may be defined as the first good golf architecture over here.
Something tells me Emmet and Leeds may've been the first over here with that.
And if that's true, one sure does need to ask where they got their architectural ideas. I'd think it had to be in the linksland or heathlands.
But if it was the latter one also needs to ask if Emmet or Leeds did some really good INLAND architecture even before Willie Park Jr did? ;)
-
.
-
I posted new pictures of holes 13-17. Due to the rolling terrain, it is difficult to get a very good picture of the 18th, which could be one of the best finishing holes on Long Island.
Also, they have hired an architect to rework the bunkers. He is the same guy who recently rebuilt the disasterous Century bunkers--Harvey. Perhaps someone knows about this architect.
-
What was the name of the first all ladies golf club that was started in 1895 on Staten Island? It was a nine hole course in West New-Brighton.
Tully
-
Although this thread now has broken links to its photos, it still features the most--though still limited--discussion of the Long Island club Marion Hollins developed, Women's National.
Recent comments made about the course have been made on the Bahto Evangelist of Golf thread, which I'll copy in below.
What caught my attention today was a Fried Egg video featuring Angela Moser. When asked what her dream project would be, she immediately answered restoring Glen Head Country Club back to the course that Hollins had built with input from CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor, and perhaps principally Devereaux Emmet.
This could be a home run partnership of a female architect bringing attention to one of golf's most consequential developers, with an East Coast location to memorialize Hollins' legacy beyond Cypress Point. Glen Head CC doesn't even appear on the NY State rankings for Golf Digest or Top100golfcourses. The membership could enjoy nothing but upside potential of having a restoration that could reinsert itself into the likes of its neighbors like Piping Rock, the Creek, and Garden City. What's not to love about this possible story?
Link to video: https://youtu.be/841wyjWQ4C0?si=fGmd-2btXEEpc7y7 (https://youtu.be/841wyjWQ4C0?si=fGmd-2btXEEpc7y7)
I recently finished reading the reprinted edition for the first time, and the details--particularly in the chapters devoted to NGLA--are terrific. It helped flesh out better context behind Macdonald's autobiography. Two immediate questions came to mind: 1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.2) This might deserve a separate thread if any historians have more info, but the brief chapter on Glen Head's Womens National Golf Club, founded by Marion Hollins and later acquired (then sold off) by the Creek Club, interested me. Bahto makes a comment that Hollins took her own scouting trip to the UK in anticipation of the club being developed, which has been referenced elsewhere on the DG by Wayne Morrison and more recently Bret Lawrence. Bahto's phrasing implies that she was in search of ideal holes for a woman's game, which may have resulted in an entirely different list of ideal/template holes selected from the UK classics. Were any specific holes from her trips noted anywhere? It'd be interesting to compare differences between Macdonald's ideals and Hollins, if she ever produced such a list.
For question 1 I used to use the Stonybrook University site: https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/c.php?g=35399&p=224887 (https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/c.php?g=35399&p=224887)The various County GIS sites might also have some resourcesPretty sure I'm forgetting something, hopefully someone else can chime in.
In the book "Champion in a Man's World", by David Outerbridge, pages 90-92, it discusses how Hollins left for the UK in search of ideal holes for Women's National Golf and Tennis Club. With the assistance of Cecil Leitch, she played over 20 courses. She documented the trip with notes, sketches, photos and movies. She turned these materials over to Devereaux Emmet who was to design the course. The first hole was reminiscent of the 7th hole at the new course at Walton Heath. The 4th was a copy of the 11th at Northampton. The Principal's Nose made an appearance on the 17th. The 12th hole at Least women's National was fashioned after the 3rd at Mid-Surrey.She and Emmet also looked for inspiration at courses on a Long Island. The 5th at Women's was similar to the 5th at her home course, Westbrook. The 8th was an adaptation of the 5th at NGLA. Lastly, the 11th was a close approximation to the 13th at Piping Rock.The author then explains that rather than use her monster tee shots, she used US Champion Alexa Sterling's 175 yard carry as the fair but testing standard for tee placement.The book is very well researched and an interesting read. A great addition to any golf library. It's kind of hard to believe there has never been any kind of documentary or movie made about this remarkable woman.
Adding in a couple of stories on Women’s National Golf & Tennis Club. The first story was written by Marion Hollins. (I borrowed these photos from Sven’s Re-engineering Raynor thread.)Golf Illustrated., January 1923:(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/eb62cd25-7746-4007-8bad-ba7edb48ae2f.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/eb62cd25-7746-4007-8bad-ba7edb48ae2f.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/2b270325-0bb4-40db-a1d2-7bd7bae590b3.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/2b270325-0bb4-40db-a1d2-7bd7bae590b3.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/0c71a884-402f-4d37-89f6-a9df105803ba.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/0c71a884-402f-4d37-89f6-a9df105803ba.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/fd903911-df2a-4cbf-8d1b-b12df357f914.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/fd903911-df2a-4cbf-8d1b-b12df357f914.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/7362aa88-afb2-4580-975b-a59abc7e7dae.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/7362aa88-afb2-4580-975b-a59abc7e7dae.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/713cbef2-2554-4f70-8b34-e02b62b1d897.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/713cbef2-2554-4f70-8b34-e02b62b1d897.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)Golf Illustrated., March 1924:(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/4c31ba9e-0829-4209-be08-4100af1a933e.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/4c31ba9e-0829-4209-be08-4100af1a933e.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/36e90876-1ba3-4182-8c4e-7708d40b8280.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/36e90876-1ba3-4182-8c4e-7708d40b8280.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/89ecbeb2-c20a-489c-8843-bffb60a97472.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/89ecbeb2-c20a-489c-8843-bffb60a97472.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/bb69c284-a22e-4e93-9af8-d4350736f6d2.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/bb69c284-a22e-4e93-9af8-d4350736f6d2.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/71901f0f-3efe-49d9-8451-6108e40bb544.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/71901f0f-3efe-49d9-8451-6108e40bb544.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/b83eaabc-fda3-4de5-9f47-127534d6b91c.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/b83eaabc-fda3-4de5-9f47-127534d6b91c.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/5b3a07f3-1571-4b00-b5ec-638b774feb69.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/5b3a07f3-1571-4b00-b5ec-638b774feb69.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)I use the Nassau County GIS viewer to find 1926 aerial photographs from Nassau County, New York:https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/ (https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/)On the right hand side select: “Layers” tabThen click the second box down to view 1926 Nassau County aerials.Bret
-
A year ago or so when I was canvassing architects and pundits to create a list of the top 25 most "in-demand" restorations, Glen Head came in at No. 19, mostly for the historic reasons you cite, Michael. I kept all those providing feedback anonymous and I honestly can't remember who provided what quotes for what courses, but I included a "panelist" quote for each course.
The entry for Glen Head was "It doesn't just need history to be worth the work."
I believe Flynn also consulted.
Although this thread now has broken links to its photos, it still features the most--though still limited--discussion of the Long Island club Marion Hollins developed, Women's National.
Recent comments made about the course have been made on the Bahto Evangelist of Golf thread, which I'll copy in below.
What caught my attention today was a Fried Egg video featuring Angela Moser. When asked what her dream project would be, she immediately answered restoring Glen Head Country Club back to the course that Hollins had built with input from CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor, and perhaps principally Devereaux Emmet.
This could be a home run partnership of a female architect bringing attention to one of golf's most consequential developers, with an East Coast location to memorialize Hollins' legacy beyond Cypress Point. Glen Head CC doesn't even appear on the NY State rankings for Golf Digest or Top100golfcourses. The membership could enjoy nothing but upside potential of having a restoration that could reinsert itself into the likes of its neighbors like Piping Rock, the Creek, and Garden City. What's not to love about this possible story?
-
It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.
One of my instant favorites from studying the aerial was the Architecture of the 8th hole. The original 8th green is still visibly there but now has a maintenance path through it. It is one of the holes lengthened by moving the green further back and to the left. The original bunkering is gone, but the landforms are still visible. The new green is the " Reversed Redan-ish" green that Robert Mercer Reduntz was referring to.
The course used to have so much more spice. The routing, the former greens (sizes and slopes), and the brilliant bunkering (cross bunkers, angles, distances from tees, placement of them in combination with the slopes, green site bunkering), especially with that amount of topography...
Although on the same land, the par-3 12th hole is relatively new. It used to be a bunker-less par-3 with a diagonal creek in front of the green, but now it has a pond and bunkering. :-X
I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...
-
It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.
One of my instant favorites from studying the aerial was the Architecture of the 8th hole. The original 8th green is still visibly there but now has a maintenance path through it. It is one of the holes lengthened by moving the green further back and to the left. The original bunkering is gone, but the landforms are still visible. The new green is the " Reversed Redan-ish" green that Robert Mercer Reduntz was referring to.
The course used to have so much more spice. The routing, the former greens (sizes and slopes), and the brilliant bunkering (cross bunkers, angles, distances from tees, placement of them in combination with the slopes, green site bunkering), especially with that amount of topography...
Although on the same land, the par-3 12th hole is relatively new. It used to be a bunker-less par-3 with a diagonal creek in front of the green, but now it has a pond and bunkering. :-X
I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...
Pasting in a screen grab of the 1926 aerial from the Nassau County Viewer. If someone has a better version of the aerial for the thread, please let us know.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54269997392_4b3dff01f8_c.jpg)
1926
Angela--do you think this image predates any modifications Flynn might have made? Wayne Morrison notes in his book, The Nature Faker, that Toomey & Flynn were paid for construction work at the end of 1926 and into 1927. I really have no idea. Part of me thinks that the bunkering in the southwest corner of the property has a scalloped softness more recognizable to Flynn, as if he might have already begun reworking that area, whereas the central and northern area of the course seems more in line with an Emmet/Raynor/Macdonald aesthetic.
Based on the 1940 image below that Wayne has in his book, it seems that a significant component of Flynn's involvement was lengthening a couple holes west of the clubhouse in the middle area of the property.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54269997372_b0ba13c305_c.jpg)
1940
The Emmet routing plan, from the Golf Illustrated Jan. 1923, and also referenced in Morrison's book, is only partially helpful, because what's on the ground in 1926 deviates in a number of spots from the drawing.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54271130554_1d0895ec45_c.jpg)
Drawn Plan
Long Island is a crowded market with multiple renowned golf clubs. Perhaps Glen Head's green committee and membership can be sold on the idea that restoring the historic version of their course could catapult their club into the same caliber of neighbors who enjoy Top 100 accolades domestically. I have no familiarity with Glen Head as a club, but can only imagine how this kind of project would spark increased local and national membership interest. It is a rare thing for a course to not have lost any of its original land, have such a unique historical foundation to it, yet not want to reclaim its latent potential. What course wouldn't want to be associated with Cypress Point? I hope members of this community can help spur momentum!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54269997397_a9a1b6c3db_c.jpg)
Current layout
-
Michael:
You can point out the changes between the 1926 and the 1940 aerial:
[/size]
[/size]- the new 8th green has been built. (old 8th green is still visible!)
[/size]- new tees for the 9th.
[/size]- the new 17th green (the old green was inside the fairway)
[/size]- new tees for the 18th.
[/size]- there are definitely some big differences in bunkering added on many holes (1,2,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,17,18)
-
Michael:
You can point out the changes between the 1926 and the 1940 aerial:
- the new 8th green has been built. (old 8th green is still visible!)
- new tees for the 9th.
- the new 17th green (the old green was inside the fairway)
- new tees for the 18th.
- there are definitely some big differences in bunkering added on many holes (1,2,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,17,18)
Resized Angela's notes above.
Below is my estimation of the routing. Correct?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54271884386_7749a3865a_c.jpg)
-
The photo bucket links at the beginning of this thread are no longer working. Here's a link to photos of the back nine at Glen Head from 2018 https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157697369505501/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157697369505501/)
-
Not to go too far off on a tangent, but there is a notable footnote in these articles, which I had picked up on a while back before seeing this thread, was contained within the study visit with Cecil Leitch to "find" holes to mimic.
Cecil was Ladies' President (c.1920-26) of my home club, Henley GC (designed by James Braid 1907, as discussed in my recent podcast if this interests anyone) and was a very keen student/protogee of James Braid (it is claimed she was once disciplined at school for reading Braid's "Advanced Golf" under her desk during lessons!)
As per the article Hollins met and played 36 holes around Walton Heath with Braid and Leitch, and no doubt they discussed both Fowler's designs there (as noted in the article) and Braid's own thoughts on Golf Architecture for Women.
Braid himself was a huge champion of the Women's game and wrote in 1907 a hard-to-get book "The Ladies' Field Golf Book" the first book specifically written by a leading Professional of the day for Women.
It also includes a chapter on Golf Architecture for Ladies' courses, which may be the first of such.
Notably given his partnering two highy capable women on that tour it is relevant that he thought back in 1907 the desired length for a nine-hole course (as most Ladies' courses were at that time) was 2600 yards (or more), that was probably in response to some really very short attempts by others on such courses attached to Men's clubs back in the day (perceptions needed to be changed from "The Himalayas" upwards you might say)
To a James Braid researcher the small influence Braid may have given Hollins in her project is really notable, as he only has one design credit anywhere in the US at St Andrews GC of NY (where he designed 4-holes and gave advice on bunkering & trees, from afar using topographical maps, as per his peer Donald Ross).
I concur a Moser-led restoration would be absolutely the best way forward, but as in all such things the Club and its members need to understand what they have and get a vision for what a uniquely special place it could be (once again)...
-
Very cool stuff, and thanks everyone for sharing.
First thing that stands out to me with those old photos and aerials--those features are BOLD and not of a pushover type. That probably speaks to a few things: certainly a more "sporting" nature of golf pleasantly present at the time but also insights into Hollins's thinking of what the game for women really should have been, in her opinion. Maybe holes aren't quite as long and greens have some more open fronts, but the challenges and thrills overall should be much the same as it is for the better male players. It's one thing to speak that, but cooler to actually see that.
Hopefully this eventually gets some momentum and that someday Angela can do her thing. Would be really neat to see. (also, the older course just looks cool, outside of the great story and history)
-
Here is an early scorecard with a grand total of 5,914.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LYoki9m69siBVPuA7
Isn't that about the distance of Sedge Valley?
-
First thing that stands out to me with those old photos and aerials--those features are BOLD and not of a pushover type. That probably speaks to a few things: certainly a more "sporting" nature of golf pleasantly present at the time but also insights into Hollins's thinking of what the game for women really should have been, in her opinion. Maybe holes aren't quite as long and greens have some more open fronts, but the challenges and thrills overall should be much the same as it is for the better male players. It's one thing to speak that, but cooler to actually see that.
Agreed, Brett, there are some holes that make no pretense of avoiding forced carries (and they look like a blast to play). Colin's scorecard makes me think the hole numbers I assigned to the aerial a couple replies earlier is correct. The par 3 4th is fascinating, especially with that left flank of fairway to make it a drive and pitch par 3 for the bogey golfer. The 8th is a very tactful par 5 with the differently oriented diagonal bunkering lines. 14 and 15 robust par 5s with forced carry fairway bunkers. 16 a devilish short par 3 with an island green surrounded by sand.
Colin, thanks for providing the scorecard! Okay for me to paste it into the thread for ease of visibility? And yes, Sedge Valley back tee is just under at 5,829.
-
Michael,
Please do so. If I knew how to post, I would!
Here's the other side of the card.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/FN1mdMkAvApxuR6c9 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/FN1mdMkAvApxuR6c9)
-
Michael,
Your routing of Women’s National Golf & Tennis Club looks correct to me. The 1924 article, that was posted earlier in the thread has a scorecard which indicates how the course played in 1924 and the 1926 aerial follows this routing exactly. Colin’s scorecard shows us how the course was played in 1928 and that routing is more closely aligned with the course we see in the 1940 aerial. This tells me that Colin’s card is from after Flynn made his changes to the golf course. The aerials shows us that these changes by Flynn were not noticeable in the 1926 aerial. Therefore Flynn working on the course in 1926-1927 seems to align with the information we have been given.
Here is a comparison of the two cards:
1924. 1928
1. 420-Par 5. 1. 392-Par 4
2. 325-Par 4. 2. 319-Par 4
3. 363-Par 4. 3. 360-Par 4
4. 180-Par 3. 4. 188-Par 3
5. 400-Par 5. 5. 334-Par 4
6. 340-Par 4. 6. 370-Par 4
7. 210-Par 4. 7. 225-Par 4
8. 373-Par 4. 8. 411-Par 5
9. 270-Par 4. 9. 378-Par 4
10. 426-Par 5. 10. 377-Par 4
11. 350-Par 4. 11. 361-Par 4
12. 145-Par 3. 12. 136-Par 3
13. 360-Par 4. 13. 322-Par 4
14. 430-Par 5. 14. 426-Par 5
15. 500-Par 5. 15. 468-Par 5
16. 135-Par 3. 16. 113-Par 3
17. 320-Par 4. 17. 393-Par 4
18. 323-Par 4. 18. 441-Par 5
The biggest changes between 1924 and 1928 appear to be on holes 8, 9, 17 and 18 due to the new positioning of the 8th and 17th greens discussed earlier in this thread. There were several changes to distance and Par on other holes as well, but they aren’t as noticeable in the aerial photographs.
-
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54279817154_9501d415eb_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54278693427_65d5dbf968_c.jpg)
-
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54279817154_9501d415eb_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54278693427_65d5dbf968_c.jpg)
Ralph picked a great venue for a mixed foursome with the Mrs.
Thanks for sharing Michael and Colin!
-
Angela both made me aware of and persuaded me to help her in her Women's National quest during the brief time I was at the construction of Pinehurst No. 10. I walked Women’s National aka Glen Head with her this past summer.
In the Marion Hollins biography it was mentioned that Alexa Stirling’s average carry distance off the tee of 175 yards was used in the consideration of placing hazards on the course (though they were careful to say that one single yardage should not define the strategy). I wanted to try to understand it from the perspective of that player. I made a Google Earth KMZ drawing of those distances off the tees of the 1926 aerial before visiting so I could easily identify when we were on them. It really struck me that it wasn’t just the built hazards, the routing made really interesting use of the land in consideration of somebody hitting it those distances. The most interesting topography is in these zones and almost always presents choices for you to make between one side of the hole and the other.
This 1926 aerial of the course is almost certainly part of the same aerial photograph flights we used in restoring the Lido, as both are in Nassau County and have a similar look and feel. This property however wasn’t completely wiped out by development. It wasn’t even completely wiped out by golf architecture tampering. If an old feature wasn’t built over the top of by something new, there was pretty much always still something to find of it in the ground. These remnants all over the property can be used as data points to align the old aerial and restore the things that there aren’t remnants of in near perfect 2D accuracy. I created a highly refined alignment of the 1926 aerial to the real world, with updates made after the visit. The 3D requires pictures of the lost built features to scale off of, so it’s great to see pictures emerge in this thread.
I don’t know what type of golfer constitutes the club's membership today but despite the modern power game there are still plenty of people that hit it those distances, both men and women. As it stands it’s just another course trying to be something for everyone that everyone else is doing. If it went back to its roots and focused on what it was originally designed to be great at, it would recapture strategic interest and stand out as something unique in our current times.
-
It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.
One of my instant favorites from studying the aerial was the Architecture of the 8th hole. The original 8th green is still visibly there but now has a maintenance path through it. It is one of the holes lengthened by moving the green further back and to the left. The original bunkering is gone, but the landforms are still visible. The new green is the " Reversed Redan-ish" green that Robert Mercer Reduntz was referring to.
The course used to have so much more spice. The routing, the former greens (sizes and slopes), and the brilliant bunkering (cross bunkers, angles, distances from tees, placement of them in combination with the slopes, green site bunkering), especially with that amount of topography...
Although on the same land, the par-3 12th hole is relatively new. It used to be a bunker-less par-3 with a diagonal creek in front of the green, but now it has a pond and bunkering. :-X
I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...
Angela,
Pretty cool story. It would have been fun to walk along with you as you pointed out things the Superintendent didn’t see or appreciate.
I did kind of had a similar experience with Tommy Naccarato at Recreation Park in Long Beach, CA. I lived in Long Beach for about five years and played the course many times, but Tommy, who had studied aerials from the 1930s, made me feel like I had never seen the course before!
I hope your dream comes true.
Tim Weiman
-
Angela both made me aware of and persuaded me to help her in her Women's National quest during the brief time I was at the construction of Pinehurst No. 10. I walked Women’s National aka Glen Head with her this past summer.
In the Marion Hollins biography it was mentioned that Alexa Stirling’s average carry distance off the tee of 175 yards was used in the consideration of placing hazards on the course (though they were careful to say that one single yardage should not define the strategy). I wanted to try to understand it from the perspective of that player. I made a Google Earth KMZ drawing of those distances off the tees of the 1926 aerial before visiting so I could easily identify when we were on them. It really struck me that it wasn’t just the built hazards, the routing made really interesting use of the land in consideration of somebody hitting it those distances. The most interesting topography is in these zones and almost always presents choices for you to make between one side of the hole and the other.
This 1926 aerial of the course is almost certainly part of the same aerial photograph flights we used in restoring the Lido, as both are in Nassau County and have a similar look and feel. This property however wasn’t completely wiped out by development. It wasn’t even completely wiped out by golf architecture tampering. If an old feature wasn’t built over the top of by something new, there was pretty much always still something to find of it in the ground. These remnants all over the property can be used as data points to align the old aerial and restore the things that there aren’t remnants of in near perfect 2D accuracy. I created a highly refined alignment of the 1926 aerial to the real world, with updates made after the visit. The 3D requires pictures of the lost built features to scale off of, so it’s great to see pictures emerge in this thread.
I don’t know what type of golfer constitutes the club's membership today but despite the modern power game there are still plenty of people that hit it those distances, both men and women. As it stands it’s just another course trying to be something for everyone that everyone else is doing. If it went back to its roots and focused on what it was originally designed to be great at, it would recapture strategic interest and stand out as something unique in our current times.
Brian, thanks for adding additional context to Angela's (and your) interest in the course. Do you have any images that are sharable at this point? Either the KMZ you mention, or the refined alignment of the 1926 to today?
Apart from Glen Head's superintendent, are there any club members or committee members aware of yours and Angela's interest?
-
It was incredible to walk the property last summer and point out the old green sites to the Superintendent, who had no idea about the overgrown sharp humps being that. We shared the 1926 aerial on GE so he could go and explore how big and excellent his greens used to be.
The course used to have so much more spice.
I left the property with a bittersweet taste. It was all still there, but it seemed they didn't know or weren't interested in investigating their past. But never say never...
Angela,
Pretty cool story. It would have been fun to walk along with you as you pointed out things the Superintendent didn’t see or appreciate.
I did kind of had a similar experience with Tommy Naccarato at Recreation Park in Long Beach, CA. I lived in Long Beach for about five years and played the course many times, but Tommy, who had studied aerials from the 1930s, made me feel like I had never seen the course before!
I hope your dream comes true.
Tim Weiman
Great info in this thread!
Tim, would love to see a similar thread for Big Rec...??
Big Rec represents everything that's great about "golf"...even Matt would feel comfortable there! ;) ;D
-
Thank you, Collin, for sharing the scorecard from '26. It's fantastic to see something with a date and play from WNGTC's history.
There are a few older pictures hanging in the Pro Shop, including one of the original clubhouse and an older scorecard (unfortunately undated and without recorded play). That particular scorecard appears to be from after Colin's, as holes 8 & 9 and 17 & 18 had already been adjusted, and likely closer to the time the Creek Club acquired WNGTC. The mention of the "Men's Par" at the bottom of this card is an interesting detail. (*I am not sure how to post images either, Collin)
On a related note, when clearing out their attic, the Creek Club uncovered an unopened box of WNGTC scorecards and kindly sent them back to Glen Head. This is a nice serendipity for anyone interested in preserving the course's history! Once I am back home, I will have to check if it is the same card as Colins or from the ProShop.
Of course, restoring the course would be a dream come true for me, but it’s worth remembering how much better the course used to be—it would be a win for the members. From what I understand, the intent of the course was to create a challenging design that catered to and tested women’s golf. The routing, the use of topography, the angles, greens, and the bunkering were all exceptional for a course of its distance. Keeping it shorter makes it playable and enjoyable for most, but with just enough bite to keep things interesting.
If you’re a long hitter, why not leave the driver at home? It would be fascinating to explore insights into the club’s members—handicaps, driving distances, and how the course plays for them. Imagine playing with your mom and dad on a course that fits their game rather than them struggling to carry the drivable bunker for you with their second or third shot. I doubt that the majority of today's golfers would have been capable of winning a match against some of the best Women back then. So why must this course be reinvented if you have a unique golden classic right before your nose?
Although I don’t know any board members, the course fascinates me. I love playing detective and uncovering what happened.
@Brian: I might be misunderstanding your phrasing here, but to clarify, you weren’t directly involved with No. 10. You had visited to ask questions for your project, observe, and play some golf in the Pinehurst area. In return for setting you up with golf, staying with the crew, and having free housing, you kindly provided the historic aerial of WNGTC to me, which I very much appreciate.
@Tim: He was surprised at how large the greens used to be—13, in particular, stood out. The green originally started at least 15 yards before the current green and expanded all the way to the back. The bunkers are somewhat grown in but could be quickly restored. Unfortunately, I was told there were plans to redo and even close some bunkers without historical guidance, with the work being done last fall. :'(
-
Including a photograph of the 16th hole from a Carters Tested Seeds Advertisment:
Golf Illustrated., March 1924.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/3a444078-83aa-42c6-a2cf-038f469e9464.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/3a444078-83aa-42c6-a2cf-038f469e9464.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
-
Including a photograph of the 16th hole from a Carters Tested Seeds Advertisment:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/3a444078-83aa-42c6-a2cf-038f469e9464.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/3a444078-83aa-42c6-a2cf-038f469e9464.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
Fantastic, Bret. Safe to assume this photo was taken amidst construction? Because the 1926 aerial has sand encircling the green (except for maybe the back left corner for connecting to 17 tee.)
-
If you’re a long hitter, why not leave the driver at home? It would be fascinating to explore insights into the club’s members—handicaps, driving distances, and how the course plays for them. Imagine playing with your mom and dad on a course that fits their game rather than them struggling to carry the drivable bunker for you with their second or third shot. I doubt that the majority of today's golfers would have been capable of winning a match against some of the best Women back then. So why must this course be reinvented if you have a unique golden classic right before your nose?
I agree, and I’d probably want to play hickory clubs if I was playing the original course, and without the driver if that was also needed to keep it interesting. Though I will say I can understand if it is someone’s only club why they might not want a course that they can’t play modern golf on. Which means getting the club membership back to represent what the course was all about is probably required and maybe the hardest part. (Hope I'm wrong, I have no actual knowledge of the membership or their feelings)
@Brian: I might be misunderstanding your phrasing here, but to clarify, you weren’t directly involved with No. 10. You had visited to ask questions for your project, observe, and play some golf in the Pinehurst area. In return for setting you up with golf, staying with the crew, and having free housing, you kindly provided the historic aerial of WNGTC to me, which I very much appreciate.
Yes, what I was trying to convey if it didn’t come across was, I didn’t know anything about Women’s National before asked me to look into it prior to my visit to No. 10, you’re passion for it while I was there got me interested enough to help some more beyond that, and when we went and saw it, I was completely convinced that a restoration would live up to the expectations.
You did throw me in a dozer for an afternoon and it was my first time, so my direct involvement in No. 10 was that I didn't screw anything up (I hope) ;D
-
Including a photograph of the 16th hole from a Carters Tested Seeds Advertisment:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/3a444078-83aa-42c6-a2cf-038f469e9464.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/3a444078-83aa-42c6-a2cf-038f469e9464.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
Fantastic, Bret. Safe to assume this photo was taken amidst construction? Because the 1926 aerial has sand encircling the green (except for maybe the back left corner for connecting to 17 tee.)
Michael, I apologize for not including the date for that photograph. I have modified my previous post to include it. The photograph above was published in Golf Illustrated., March 1924. The same photograph is also published in the April 1924 article posted earlier, as a small inset. Without leaves in the trees and a pin in the green, I think it’s safe to assume this picture was taken during the winter months of 1923-1924, amidst construction or grow-in.
Bret
-
As the father of three girls who are each developing interest in the game, I do hope a modern women's club takes hold. And it would be wonderful for Angela to be critical to its design and construction.
Reading this thread made me go back and peek at the Westchester Women's course...which I first remember seeing from Bret's posts on the Connecticut 1934 thread.
Since I haven't ever seen a scorecard---I should re-check---I was curious what its approx length might be.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/iHBaonUCLv8kyuFd9 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/iHBaonUCLv8kyuFd9)
(The image of the news article I clipped from Bret's post on the other thread.)
It is just guessing, but I have it about 3000 yards. Some similarly interesting bunkering by Emmet. The two par-three greens especially look fun.
-
Colin,
I believe the Emmet course in Banksville was estimated around 3,100 yards in the 1930-1931 American Annual Golf Guide. The club became the Middle Patent Club and I am almost positive the Ralph Kennedy scorecard collection includes a scorecard from Middle Patent Club. I had never heard of the course before I saw Ralph’s list of CT courses played and this one was included.
Bret
-
Angela:
Did you not, when several years ago I told you my idea to build a course geared toward women, tell me that was a sexist idea?
Just clarifying . . . I still think it's a great idea, and if you do it before I do, then maybe I will do one without you so we can compare results. ;)
Streamsong should have done it when I suggested it. It would have changed the vibe there completely. Instead they have The Chain and whatever David Kidd builds next.
-
The names may have changed but three courses I’ve thoroughly enjoyed playing are …
The Ladies Putting Club at St Andrew (aka The Himalayas)
Formby Ladies GC
Sunningdale Ladies GC (now Sunningdale Heath).
Golf would be in a better place if there were more courses akin to them.
Atb
-
Including a photograph of the 16th hole from a Carters Tested Seeds Advertisment:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/3a444078-83aa-42c6-a2cf-038f469e9464.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/3a444078-83aa-42c6-a2cf-038f469e9464.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
Fantastic, Bret. Safe to assume this photo was taken amidst construction? Because the 1926 aerial has sand encircling the green (except for maybe the back left corner for connecting to 17 tee.)
Michael,
Here is another photograph of the 16th green with the sand completely surrounding the green. I borrowed these photograph from Sven Nilsen’s post in the Compilation of Routings thread. Golf Illustrated., August 1928:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/8f2d6619-17c2-482e-9520-4407802399e8.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/8f2d6619-17c2-482e-9520-4407802399e8.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
Golf Illustrated., August 1928
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/548d5a86-a950-4337-b0d5-6d5ec88a13e7.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/548d5a86-a950-4337-b0d5-6d5ec88a13e7.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
-
Including an article from The Brooklyn Daily Eagle., May 10, 1923 mentioning a contour model of the course, Hollins, Emmet, Macdonald and Raynor.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/621440a5-e414-4e35-b904-838e0ad68006.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/621440a5-e414-4e35-b904-838e0ad68006.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
-
Bret,
Thanks for sharing.
Basically, that was the Harris Kalinka of the day.
That would have been to call on that display and get the tour from that group!