News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Gib_Papazian

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2010, 09:57:04 PM »
Ken,

Your concept of "the old days" is completely dependent upon the particular dividing line between the "previous era" and today. David Huish once opined to me that the Redan Bunker at North Berwick "had always been partially grown in as you find it," but the fact is that his knowledge began at 1953 and he had little interest in anything that occurred before it. Such is the hubris attached to those who can strike the ball beautifully but have not been held to any standard of aesthetic, strategic or historical knowledge. Nobody dares to challenge the man who led The Open - as if his opinion eclipses all other perspectives.

If this were true (let us extrapolate), Tiger Woods would be the greatest designer of all time. No, wait! Jack Nicklaus and his early efforts would be . . . . . do we need go on?   

To be honest, I find GCA to be a shadow of its former self due to the inevitable dilution of discourse - primarily to the "inclusion" of newbie muffinheads as part of some sort of egalitarian experiment go awry.

We always welcome a new voice, but half the zippy's who chime in belong in the cheap seats instead of elbowing their way to the lectern.

That stated, years ago I was accused of "puerile wing-nuttery," so maybe I ought just jump on the bandwagon and follow Pelosi over the falls. I hear drowning is actually a peaceful way to die.

g
 

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2010, 10:55:28 PM »
...at least it shows my typing has evolved...where the hell is SPDB?

Gib, don't follow Pelosi over the falls....committing seppuku at the top is more honorable.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

John Moore II

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2010, 05:22:55 AM »
To be honest, I find GCA to be a shadow of its former self due to the inevitable dilution of discourse - primarily to the "inclusion" of newbie muffinheads as part of some sort of egalitarian experiment go awry.

We always welcome a new voice, but half the zippy's who chime in belong in the cheap seats instead of elbowing their way to the lectern.


Gib, I have to ask, what exactly makes you a member of golf royalty and me (being somewhat new to the site) a simple peasant? Do answer that for me please. After all, how many people on here would actually have a recognizable name or face to the majority of the golfing public?

Tell you what, you get Jack Nicklaus, Greg Norman, Mike Davis of the USGA, Jim Remy of the PGA of America, Peter Dawson of the R & A and a few other really noteworthy among the golf elite, and I'll start to believe you about some egalitarian experiment. After all, I'm just a simple public course golfer, what could I possibly know about golf design and architecture??

Anthony Gray

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2010, 11:46:02 AM »


  One question is do "Just Golfers" belong on the site?

  Anthony


Gib_Papazian

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2010, 02:00:42 PM »
John,

I do not consider you one of the zippys who belong in the cheap seats. Actually, your posts are generally insightful and cogent. I think you need to read my post again. Nowhere did I assert that *all* newbies are muffinheads. But it never used to be necessary to wade through a series of inane drivel to get to something interesting.

And what does being a "public course golfer" have to do with the issue at hand? Some of the sharpest tools in this shed play public golf. Let's start with my very good friend Adam Clayman.

Perhaps you can further explain. I'm not sure how your "royalty" argument follows logically. I just went and looked in the mirror to make sure and there was no crown atop my head. Sure enough, dark brown and lots of gray hair. But no crown.

Very strange that you would identify yourself as a peasant. This might be a indicator of a deep-seated inferiority complex or a negative self-image. There are support groups for these sort of emotional challenges . . . .   

 


Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2010, 03:15:14 PM »
Waking up sort of late today.  It was a good night at Casa de Vino.  May I recommend McKinlay's Pinot Noir from Willamette Valley--2006.  At 34 bucks a bottle, it's laughably underpriced.  Then again, it's probably 56 bucks in San Francisco.

But I digress.  I wake up to read this conversation regarding "eras" of GCA.com.  You could say that I have a dog in this fight, as I am fairly new here.  What strikes me as humorous, is that a site barely ten years old, that connects over technology still considered "new", and with a membership of less than 2000 individuals, can have "eras". 

I often find myself feeling nostalgic and looking up threads from yesteryear--say 2004--and reading with a feeling of wistful longing for a time when GCA.com wasn't corrupted by newbies with bruised elbows and sore throats.  A time when this site was more autocratic in it's understanding of golf architecture. 

Gib, you're a great friend, but inevitable dilution of this site with those enamored by the product being created here--I am one of those--was just that, inevitable.  Like any egalitarian form of government, we must take the good with the bad.  Embrace it!  Nuggets of good often come from mindless drivel.  Need proof?  Grab a copy of Golf in the Kingdom.... ;D

Anthony Gray

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2010, 04:34:40 PM »


  I think there are some spelling errors onthis thread.

  Anthiny


John Moore II

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2010, 05:05:26 PM »


  One question is do "Just Golfers" belong on the site?

  Anthony

No, I don't think only golfers belong on the site. However, that being said, I think only people with a great interest in the design and maintenance of golf courses should be included. If someone who has never touched a club can meet that description, then for sure bring them on. Otherwise, I'd just as soon they not be around.

John Moore II

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2010, 05:21:36 PM »
Gib-Your original post seems like it is written with you standing on some pedestal looking down on the new guys of GCA. I've been here going on 3 years and I have seen some really crazy stuff. I've seen John Kavanaugh talk about any number of crazy things and I've been witness to two battles in the ongoing war over Merion. And there are at least two other engagements from that conflict from the past. Those guys have been fighting for a good long while, so I don't think thats gone downhill in the recent times. And I think with Cobb's Creek, I think we've come to one of the higher points we've seen, and that according to some of the longest standing of the members. I really don't think there has been some marked decline in the quality of this site recently, at least not in the 3 years I've been here.

You may not be "royalty," but your original post sure made it seem like you felt like you were better than many other people on here, especially many of the new people. 

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2010, 05:37:19 PM »
Gib-Your original post seems like it is written with you standing on some pedestal looking down on the new guys of GCA. I've been here going on 3 years and I have seen some really crazy stuff. I've seen John Kavanaugh talk about any number of crazy things and I've been witness to two battles in the ongoing war over Merion. And there are at least two other engagements from that conflict from the past. Those guys have been fighting for a good long while, so I don't think thats gone downhill in the recent times. And I think with Cobb's Creek, I think we've come to one of the higher points we've seen, and that according to some of the longest standing of the members. I really don't think there has been some marked decline in the quality of this site recently, at least not in the 3 years I've been here.

You may not be "royalty," but your original post sure made it seem like you felt like you were better than many other people on here, especially many of the new people. 

John,

I agree with you in principle about the argument of goldern era vs. newbies.  But Gib isn't the one to attack.  It's the idea of it all.  Amiable, funny, intutive, munificent.  These are all traits that describe Gib the day I got to spend with him at O Lake and at his watering hole in Burlingame. 

Engage him in funny banter if you wish.  Even disagree with him in order to force further ranting ;D, but never accuse him of looking down his nose and acting as royalty.  Seven hours with the man and I know that that is not him.

John Moore II

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2010, 05:44:13 PM »
To be honest, I find GCA to be a shadow of its former self due to the inevitable dilution of discourse - primarily to the "inclusion" of newbie muffinheads as part of some sort of egalitarian experiment go awry.

We always welcome a new voice, but half the zippy's who chime in belong in the cheap seats instead of elbowing their way to the lectern.

Ben, just read that comment. I don't know Gib, so I don't know how to take that comment. Seems to me he's talking down on new and potential new members. Perhaps he isn't.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2010, 05:49:14 PM »
Maybe he was just talking about Anthony!

Anthony Gray

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2010, 06:03:19 PM »
Maybe he was just talking about Anthony!

  Carl,

  Gib is one of my favorite posters. I wish I was as articulate as Gib. I watch his facebook daily. No problem with Gib. Great time at Bandon in a couple weeks. Join us.

  Anthony


Anthony Gray

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2010, 06:28:59 PM »
Maybe he was just talking about Anthony!

 Carl,

  Any thoughts about Golf Course Architecture? Ideas for discussion? Any threads on your mind? Any photos of courses?

  Anthpony


Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2010, 07:52:04 PM »
C'mon, Anthony, that was an explanation of the position not an endorsement. Plus, I thought you had thicker skin!

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2010, 07:57:34 PM »
I, for one, take exception to the fake name used in the original post. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Anthony Gray

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2010, 08:15:59 PM »
C'mon, Anthony, that was an explanation of the position not an endorsement. Plus, I thought you had thicker skin!

  My apologies Carl. With all th IMs going back and forth on fish bars and black underwear its hard to determine the contamination. Again my apologies. Come golf with me and Gib in a month.

  Cheers,

  Anthony


John Moore II

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2010, 08:40:39 PM »
C'mon, Anthony, that was an explanation of the position not an endorsement. Plus, I thought you had thicker skin!

  My apologies Carl. With all th IMs going back and forth on fish bars and black underwear its hard to determine the contamination. Again my apologies. Come golf with me and Gib in a month.

  Cheers,

  Anthony
I wish I could join, for sure. My my how money and work have to get in the way of good golf.  :'(

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2010, 09:23:39 PM »
Ken,

Your concept of "the old days" is completely dependent upon the particular dividing line between the "previous era" and today.

But of course.

And a person's view of how "good" the old days were, in almost any context, depend a lot on things completely unrelated to how things actually were.

I have participated in a number of online discussion boards over the years, and just about every one of them have folks who say things are going to hell in a handbasket. Come to think of it, just about every place I have lived, worked, played, or just hung out has folks who go on and on about how crappy things are compared to how they used to be.

As far as I can tell, complaining about it is a waste of time.

It's like an excercise bike, the damned things wear you out but they don't get you anywhere.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Gib_Papazian

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2010, 02:59:09 AM »
John Moore,

I gave a bit of thought to your j'accuse! upbraiding and have decided to be offended at your presumptuous assumption that because I grew up at San Francisco Muni (Read: Olympic), somehow my Armenian blood runs blue. So, driving down the road stewing about the way you expelled snot from your nose on my Foot Joys, I made a rough head count of my GCA homies from the years when discussion of golf design was so arcane and hopelessly nerdy that we might as well have been sitting in front of our computers wearing nothing except Dungeons and Dragons costumes.

Bahto, Shivas, Getka, Clem, Emperor, Brains (in the USA), Clayman, Dan King, Green Bay, Moriarty, Huckster, Meagher, Redanman, Fortson, Stettner, Gunner and Cummings were (or still are) public golfers. I count "semi-private" clubs because they are also "semi-public." I've gotten to know a few of the newcomers and most of the ones I call friend play public golf. Kids like Ben Sims may fly a billion dollars worth of military hardware around the globe, but he steps up to the window and pays the starter just like everybody else.

I'm leaving out another two-dozen regular contributors from the old days, most of whom used Casa de Dicknozian as a crash pad when stumbling into town on a golf junket. Sure, some of the regular gang had impressive logos on their club ties, but it was understood that everybody was equal in the Treehouse - except for the occasional pseudo-intellectual idiot with a wicker basket tattooed to his forehead.

I think a previous poster hit the target: The Treehouse was a lot more fun before everybody knew about us. This was demonstrated to me in technicolor at an incredibly toney East Coast event six years ago. We were off to dinner with a group when one of the guests whispered in my ear that a certain architect - with whose work I have a trifle critical - would be joining us, along with the Exec. Director of the USGA.

Someone must have thought it an amusing experiment to seat me directly across from him, but I felt sure that a person of his stratospheric stature had never heard of Golf Club Atlas, let alone an obscure golf scribe from a regional newspaper.

I walked in the door and sat down, held out my hand to this gentleman and introduced myself. His response was like a bucket of ice water over my curly locks.

"I know exactly who you are," sneered the world famous architect, who also somehow knew I was well acquainted and a fan of his brother's work.

It was at that moment of crystal clear clarity, overlooking the boats wandering into Newport harbor, that I realized just how many people actually read what I always thought was a private conversation over the internet between friends.

Now, those actually in the industry are forced to tread lightly because you never know who is lurking. Maybe the answer is to shut off access to non-members . . . . . but that hardly advances the cause of bringing great architectural ideas to the masses. I don't know what the answer is, because this website - thanks to Ran and Ben - seems to have unimaginable influence.

But I still miss Tommy's shrieking critiques and Moriarty's leftist rants and Huckster's Opie Griffith rap . . . . . . we take ourselves too seriously these days - mostly because we don't know each other personally. I especially loved OT threads . . . . . . nobody likes a game of ping pong better than me.  



 
  
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 03:05:53 AM by Gib Papazian »

John Moore II

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2010, 05:50:16 AM »
Gib-I'm not sure how to take your last post. I actually think its funny. I have played golf twice with Ed Getka, top notch guy; hopefully he thinks I'm a decent dude as well.

However, on the topic of some of the older members, some, I truly think, do seem to look down on public golfers, and I've gone back and forth with at least one of them a few times, though not recently. I think some here tend to think the only place to find worthwhile architecture is on a high-end, untra-exclusive private golf course; its not. And I have stated that from the time I got here.

Perhaps its just all about perception...

Mike Sweeney

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2010, 07:39:45 AM »

However, on the topic of some of the older members, some, I truly think, do seem to look down on public golfers, and I've gone back and forth with at least one of them a few times, though not recently. I think some here tend to think the only place to find worthwhile architecture is on a high-end, untra-exclusive private golf course; its not. And I have stated that from the time I got here.

Perhaps its just all about perception...

John,

I assume you mean Pat Mucci? The guy still thinks Notre Dame plays Division I football.  ;) He is a dinosaur man. Get over it.  8)

The concept of private and public golf has changed enormously since Sven started this thread. I actually heard of a guy quiting a "private" club recently that he joined as a temporary trial because he did not want to lose his ability to play in the the US and his state Publinks.  Definitions are changing by the day. Want to play the following:

   
The Creek
Sleepy Hollow Counrty Club
Sunningdale Country Club
Rockrimmon Country Club
Knickerbocker Country Club  
The Whippoorwill Club
The Tuxedo Club
Fairview Country Club
Metropolis Country Club
Quaker Ridge Golf Club
Westchester Country Club

Join Stationers Golf for $200.

http://sgagolf.net/course.html

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2010, 08:58:34 AM »
I keep mumbling that the great equalizer of GCA.com -- assuming one was ever needed -- is playing with other GCA participants, best of all in the Kings Putter, Dixie Cup and Buda Cup.  Playing with others and having drinks and maybe dinner after creates a bond that internet chatter can never establish.

Anthony Gray

Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2010, 10:25:05 AM »
I keep mumbling that the great equalizer of GCA.com -- assuming one was ever needed -- is playing with other GCA participants, best of all in the Kings Putter, Dixie Cup and Buda Cup.  Playing with others and having drinks and maybe dinner after creates a bond that internet chatter can never establish.

  WE did that. You won. And now you don't return my calls.recieve the roses or even wear the hat I bought you.


  Anthony


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hw cn ne ply grt glf klubee inda meric?
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2010, 11:20:23 AM »
I keep mumbling that the great equalizer of GCA.com -- assuming one was ever needed -- is playing with other GCA participants, best of all in the Kings Putter, Dixie Cup and Buda Cup.  Playing with others and having drinks and maybe dinner after creates a bond that internet chatter can never establish.

  WE did that. You won. And now you don't return my calls.recieve the roses or even wear the hat I bought you.


  Anthony



But I did watch your action in the bar in Aiken with great interest. 

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back