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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« on: May 20, 2024, 09:23:22 AM »
13 at Valhalla is chintzy and one-dimensional for everyone besides Alejandro Tosti. It's also unique, visually-arresting, the course's most iconic hole, and the favorite of seemingly literally every spectator who visited this week (it's the most unanimous agreement my aunts and uncles have shared in years).


So I ask you, esteemed architecture afficionados - can you "fix" it without disappointing my Aunt Melissa?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2024, 10:04:16 AM »
I can't believe someone actually drove that green in a stroke play event. What an incredibly poor decision that paid off.
You give him 10 balls and he probably hits that drive once.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2024, 10:44:21 AM »
I can't believe someone actually drove that green in a stroke play event. What an incredibly poor decision that paid off.
You give him 10 balls and he probably hits that drive once.


Wasn't he dead last going into the day?  Might as well gamble and have fun if the worst you can do is not lose any ground over where you started the day.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2024, 11:06:22 AM »
13 at Valhalla is chintzy and one-dimensional for everyone besides Alejandro Tosti. It's also unique, visually-arresting, the course's most iconic hole, and the favorite of seemingly literally every spectator who visited this week (it's the most unanimous agreement my aunts and uncles have shared in years).


So I ask you, esteemed architecture afficionados - can you "fix" it without disappointing my Aunt Melissa?


Why would you "fix" a self described "unique, visually arresting, iconic and "favorite" hole of every spectator?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2024, 11:07:23 AM »
Just like #10 at the Belfry.


How do you "fix" this hole (at Valhalla)?...: Put in a giant fountain, some incredible floral landscaping and maybe stock the stream with Koi fish.

Sam Morrow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2024, 11:10:45 AM »
Valhalla isn't a place myself or most of this crowd would get pumped about playing but it's produced some great entertainment, isn't that it's primary purpose as a host?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2024, 11:54:53 AM »
Valhalla isn't a place myself or most of this crowd would get pumped about playing but it's produced some great entertainment, isn't that it's primary purpose as a host?


As well as having a very worthy leaderboard.
Look, I don't get particularly excited as a fan to watch Valhalla on TV, but it's hard to argue with the outcomes, and they didn't destroy the greens for the competitors and membership, as they have at another iconic course in other golf associations to artificially hit some target score.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2024, 12:58:04 PM »
Why fix it ?  Its the signature hole of the venue.


IIF YOU INSIST ON TINKERING - ADD A FORWARD TEE SO MORE PLAYERS WOULD BE TEMPTED TO DRIVE THE GREEN.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2024, 01:08:07 PM »
One question I haven’t heard in all of these various discussions of Valhalla is whether the members enjoy playing it. I’m not saying Valhalla is my favorite golf course ever but it’s just hard to see what the problem is that people are trying to fix.


Anyway, if 13 is one dimensional, then a solution would be to narrow the fairway. It’s a simple hole with an iron and a wedge…until that wedge is from a fairway bunker to an island green.


They could also add some movement to what appears to be a fairly flat green(?). Perhaps if playing to the middle of the green left a very difficult, more players would aim at pins close to the water?


But again it’s just not totally clear what big problem people are trying to fix. It’s not like this is Merion that historically played one way and now plays completely differently.




Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2024, 01:55:40 PM »
13 at Valhalla is chintzy and one-dimensional for everyone besides Alejandro Tosti. It's also unique, visually-arresting, the course's most iconic hole, and the favorite of seemingly literally every spectator who visited this week (it's the most unanimous agreement my aunts and uncles have shared in years).


So I ask you, esteemed architecture afficionados - can you "fix" it without disappointing my Aunt Melissa?


Why would you "fix" a self described "unique, visually arresting, iconic and "favorite" hole of every spectator?


I'm a huge Valhallapologist. If the consensus in this thread becomes "13 is already what it should be," I'm cool with that. I might even agree. Honestly not sure.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2024, 02:11:29 PM »
I've seen this implemented on several holes of one course I've played.

Make the desired layup area from 80-120 yards out be rolly and rumply so you would have 3 choices:

1)  Layup short of the rumpled area and be left with a much longer shot in of 125+ yards but with a flattish lie

Or

2)  Hit over all of it with only 60-80 yards left but risk putting ur tee shot in the creek.

Or

Take your chances with the "butter zone" where the ball may be severely below or above your stance and/or sidehill/downhill.




Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2024, 02:51:52 PM »
it's really not that much different than #11 at Merion, and that's considered a great hole, isn't it? Don't know if I've ever seen anyone try and drive that green.


Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2024, 03:54:40 PM »
I added a quick (both in thought and editing) design to the Club TFE thread on this same subject this weekend, so I'll share it here as well. It seems I have similar thought to a few folks here:

They could also add some movement to what appears to be a fairly flat green(?).

Make the desired layup area from 80-120 yards out be rolly and rumply so you would have 3 choices:

Here is the design:



Generally, since the pros are playing iron wedge, I thought it would be sensible to commit to that, and added forward tees if the members want to play it this way as well. I begrudgingly like island greens, but at sand wedge distances, any hole should have the types of trouble offered by the postage stamp, so I added some pretty severe contours to a tiered green and a fall away section to a bunker in back. For the sake of the membership, pins 1 and 2 are pretty similar to the current layout (especially when played to the right), but pins 3 and 4 both bring the bunker in play if the wedge hits a fall away contour. Pin 4 is especially challenging, because putts straight down from the top tier should run out into the bunker, and players would need to play a controlled putt down to the middle tier, which curves down to the lower tier where pin 4 sit to hold the green. This means than there is a definite benefit for targeting the back section of the green, even with the added risk of kicking into the bunker, hopefully with that section being out of play for normal, day-to-day member play.

The only other thing I did was make the fairway wider, and rumple the ideal landing area, so that folks who play the safe shot to the center of the fairway might give themselves a sub-optimal lie. Playing short off the tee leaves a safe 125+ yard landing area.

If was really fun to design, and I really think the Fried Egg crew should be commended for engaging their readership in such exercises (this is the second one they've done). I really think it got me engaged in watching a tournament I normally would have skipped.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2024, 04:16:44 PM »
One reason island greens generally suck, is because you can't have contours like the ones Matt has designed here, or decent approach shots will wind up wet.


If you're going to have a hole like this, keep it relatively simple.  Narrowing the fairway a bit is a good suggestion.  Tricking it up with a rumply fairway [generally foreign to Valhalla] is not.


Or you could just close the course entirely.  I'm not a fan.  But I'm pretty amazed that these guys are shooting -20 in tournament conditions over this course.  They must be REALLY good.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2024, 04:26:09 PM »
Jason, perhaps the answer is the hole teaches us how much better the pros really are than us mortals.


Nigel

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you fix 13 at Valhalla? New
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2024, 05:03:03 PM »
One reason island greens generally suck, is because you can't have contours like the ones Matt has designed here, or decent approach shots will wind up wet.
Hmm... I really appreciate this input, but I'm curious as to a more in depth explanation here. I tucked all the heavy contouring in the back, and the smaller contour that crosses the middle can be helpful if players tee off to the for right side (away from the green).

I suppose that people don't like luck being involve when the penalty is a drop... Perhaps an exaggerated counter-slope to funnel those shots toward the bunker? I'd admit those changes make it seem a bit busy and contrived.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 05:42:15 PM by Matt Schoolfield »