News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« on: April 14, 2022, 10:39:07 AM »
Mid Pines:


Firm and fast.
Understated maintenance.
Strategic unkept fairway bunkering.
Bountiful short game interest/options.
Brilliant green contours.
Stellar two shot doglegs.
Routing that takes advantage of elevations.
Width from the tee.
Recovery options.
Embraces all skill levels.
Natural beauty.
Low key vibe.


I wish it was my home.


Mike
« Last Edit: April 14, 2022, 10:44:02 AM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Peter Pallotta

Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2022, 11:41:03 AM »
I'm very glad the members of the other senior tour enjoyed their visit, Mike. If memory serves Kyle Franz did the work there several years ago, and it must've been great work indeed -- because you didn't once feel the need to refer to the 'quality of the restoration' ! Yes, to me it has always looked the definitive inland course.









« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 11:42:39 AM by PPallotta »

Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2022, 07:57:50 PM »
Maybe I was there at the wrong time and got unlucky, but Mid Pines was far from firm and fast when I played last month.  Seems to be built on heavier soil than nearby Pinehurst courses. Regardless, I still had a great day there and agree with you. It is no surprise many golfers leave the Pinehurst / Southern Pines area and have great memories about more than just #2.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2022, 03:03:09 AM »
I think we have a section devoted to this to a certain extent with 147 custodians. As per that criteria and subsequent list NGLA is the #1 US course. No complaints from me.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2022, 10:21:42 AM »
Karl has since changed his name to Kyle, but the last name remains the same.


I love MidPines, too.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2022, 11:00:13 AM »
Quintessential is one of those words that has shades of meaning. It could refer to the typical course, or the ideal or model course. It could even refer to the classic course. Mid Pines certainly is not a typical course. It is undoubtedly a classic course. Is it the ideal course? Probably not. Those are few and far between.

If you are looking for a course as an example of what a topnotch course could be, then it does fit the bill. I would add Hidden Creek to that list. It has a wonderful routing, great and varied par threes, fun short par fours, difficult longer par fours and tempting par fives. The terrain seems flattish but C&C used the terrain brilliantly. Besides that, it is great fun and challenges the good player but allows the weaker or in my case older player to get around. The greens are some their best.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2022, 05:27:53 PM »
The most quintessential course that came to me were the courses at Bethpage State Park and if I had to pick one course it would be the black course because I don't know a lot about the others. If someone else with more Bethpage experience thinks another course would be more quintessential jump in. The US is a big country with a lot of variation but Bethpage Black checks many boxes including GCA pedigree, traditions, public access at reasonable cost, major championships, and for me walking only.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2022, 11:33:22 AM »


Mid Pines:

I wish it was my home.



Way too many tourists, don't you think?


Why not Holston Hills?


For me, on a course I could play most days year-round, Trinity Forest GC would fit the bill for most of the reasons stated in favor of Mid Pines, save natural beauty.


If I had the access, without a question, Cypress Point would be my choice.  What it might lack in the aforementioned areas, but entirely interesting and playable (I even enjoy the 18th hole), it makes up manifold in natural beauty and presentation without being ostentatious. 
 

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2022, 11:58:53 AM »
I’ll go with Aiken GC. 

Joel Pear

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2022, 12:07:40 PM »
To me, quintessential means typical, and the most typical course to many Americans would be Medinah #3.


Big
Bold
Tree lined
Well manicured
Green


Certainly not the ideal course for many (most) on this site, but could definitely fit the bill for many American golfers.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2022, 02:34:22 PM »
When I think of archetypical US courses I believe it would need to be something that is parkland since those exist almost everywhere other than the desert southwest.


The quintessential one would be one that is great based on architecture and history but really could exist anywhere based on not having anything that in not replicable, e.g. the Monterrey coast or free drawing sandy soil.


This leaves me thinking of Merion. Other than the quarry there is nothing dramatic or that special of the land. It is simply great architecture on a good site at a distance that many players can enjoy. Obviously other very good parkland courses could be cited but I’ll stick with Merion. Rolling Green could substitute for variety and when Merion is punching their greens.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2022, 02:42:48 PM »
Mid Pines:


Firm and fast.
Understated maintenance.
Strategic unkept fairway bunkering.
Bountiful short game interest/options.
Brilliant green contours.
Stellar two shot doglegs.
Routing that takes advantage of elevations.
Width from the tee.
Recovery options.
Embraces all skill levels.
Natural beauty.
Low key vibe.


I wish it was my home.


Mike




Applying each and every criteria you mentioned, I'd nominate Somerset Hills, White Bear Yacht Club, Essex Country Club (MA), Eastward Ho, NGLA, Shinnecock, Friars Head, Cal Club, Crystal Downs, Kingsley Club, etc....
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2022, 03:48:28 PM »
 8)


Quintessential ......I'm going to go Prairie Dunes








p.s.    to Steve Lapper    maybe best under the radar is Essex

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2022, 04:43:18 PM »
Quintessential by region, Midwest nominee:


Lawsonia


Accessible, affordable, approachable, architecturally interesting and relevant
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2022, 06:43:53 PM »

Low key vibe.



I played it with a local member and as a "fast player", I was slow. "The Vibe" reminded me of the glory days at Mountain Lake. It is my preferred location in Pinehurst, and I will be back:




That said, I am saddened that Bogey no longer likes public access Lobsters!!

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2022, 07:06:43 PM »
Never fear Joe and Mike - Lawsonia and Cape Arundel remain firmly in my favorite top 10.  Both are sublime and then some!


Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jerry Rossi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2022, 12:15:45 AM »

this is a great point - I think you may be spot on with a lot of this..including the part about it not being ideal for this site.  I'll just speak for me in that I think it's one of the more over-rated courses in America.  The fact that they're basically blowing it up lends credibility to that POV. 


Either way - good post

To me, quintessential means typical, and the most typical course to many Americans would be Medinah #3.


Big
Bold
Tree lined
Well manicured
Green


Certainly not the ideal course for many (most) on this site, but could definitely fit the bill for many American golfers.
Instagram: @putt4dough24

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2022, 12:55:49 AM »
Pebble Beach. Every American golfer dreams of playing Pebble. Just like the American dream it is only accessible if you have the cash. 8)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2022, 08:54:23 AM »
I don't know if Mid Pines is the quintessential US course in the sense that it's the 'most perfect or typical example' of a golf course in the United States. But to me, it's the quintessential course at which I'd like to be a member: a challenging, but not too difficult walk; has a lot of variety off the tee and to the green, requiring you to work the ball both ways; has interesting green complexes. It's challenging, but not really 'hard.' It's also the perfect length from the back tees for me.

I don't think it's a very typical course for the US because the look of the sandhills region is so distinctive. The best tree-lined country club course in the northeast would fit this better. But it's just about the quintessential course in the category 'what I'd want to play every day.'

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2022, 12:32:09 PM »
AS TW muses, quintessence has many applications... so I have a different approach...


1. It's got to be private course, the "historical" essence of most of America's grandest courses, are private; and the whole enterprise was founded as a affluent game, not a public one.  Though Pebble has a lot going for it, it doesn't have this...


2. It should be executed by an American designer... and it shouldn't have overt templates of European/UK holes, that's a deserved British parenting ethos, not an wholly American essence. In both takes, American essence is likely to be RTJ or Dye course, before a Mac or Raynor or a Ross or Mackenzie. Sawgrass is more American quintessence than NGLA, no?  If not, I'll need your definition of quintessence.


3. Again, in "retention of original history" as essence, it's likely to be found in the regions of NY, Philly, Boston and Chicago; that's where it got started and got traction here...and whatever original essence is present, ought to be established longest there. And probably existing before 1930-35, when American course-building paused; an "essence" already having been built.


4. It'll be on parkland property, probably well-treed hilly parkland property. Though classics like Cypress and Shinnecock were developed in seaside/coastal sites, most American courses do not look or play like those and American course design is the advent and advertisement for the parkland course, isn't it, I don't think many here or abroad think "America" and summon CP and Shinny, nor do these courses broadcast anything particular typical or readily found on an "American" course.


5. It's likely to have in-course water to navigate and other midwifing of the aerial game...I mean, without wishing to forestall debate, aren't those American essences, that proliferated in US design, distinct to the UK home of the game?


6. Many, many great courses in America are widely known for their cost and difficulty and ingenuity to build, many times on ground usually unconsidered as golfing ground in UK venues; so I expect the qwintessential course  to have been the result of a long or arduous, and/or imposing, perfectionist vision type of thing that cost bucks, that is still seen in how the course maintains and presents itself.


OK to take stock, if I keep to this criteria, I see these courses -- also with reputation enough -- to be American Quintessence


Myopia
The CC
Pine Valley
Merion
Medinah 


Oakmont and Winged Foot would make it there if I didn't have a water criteria


As we loosen to later eras and/or other relaxing criteria...


Augusta National
Oakland Hills
Sawgrass
Southern Hills
Shadow Creek.


tri-Final Jeopardy Answer


1. Pine Valley - though it lacks a rich tournament hosting history, and we have to consider non American inputs, it's a big private, established, audacious, monumental site with hazards and singularity.  There's no course like it and sprouts from the richest early corridor of course design.


2. Augusta National - if its critics re: Mackenzie's bastardization are correct, then it consciously stewarded the template for American parkland design.  If those critics are wrong, then Mac was visionary enough to have seen what it would become.


3. Sawgrass - is anything more wholly representative of an original, influential, bright line American design than this?









"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2022, 01:14:17 PM »
If quintessential means "perfectly typical or representative of a particular kind of person or thing" then how is firm and fast quintessential for a US golf course?  Most US courses are not firm and fast, at least not compared to their brethren in the UK and Ireland.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2022, 01:31:09 PM »
If quintessential means "perfectly typical or representative of a particular kind of person or thing" then how is firm and fast quintessential for a US golf course?  Most US courses are not firm and fast, at least not compared to their brethren in the UK and Ireland.


for myself - agree...
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2022, 02:10:10 PM »
I would argue:

If we're going with a current snap shot of American golf, not one from 120 years ago, it would be a public course...and be a Doak 2-3 to boot.

This is in fact the "typical" representative of US golf...


P.S.  The above mentioned courses are terrific i'm sure, but they are certainly outliers...
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 02:11:49 PM by Kalen Braley »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2022, 02:51:17 PM »
I would argue:

If we're going with a current snap shot of American golf, not one from 120 years ago, it would be a public course...and be a Doak 2-3 to boot.

This is in fact the "typical" representative of US golf...


P.S.  The above mentioned courses are terrific i'm sure, but they are certainly outliers...


I had to laugh when I saw NGLA mentioned as the quintessential American golf course.
Of course on this board that's the go to for everything.
An extremely private course in a highly affluent region modeled after the great courses of the UK, on a sandy somewhat recently detreed(again) plain.
I'd say Bethpage would be a better choice in the nearby region-a course/complex born of the depression for the everyday man.


Mid Pines seems like a quintessential American course(parlkland yet sandy), though I'm with Mark about AGC.
beauty is in the eye of the beholder though.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2022, 02:55:27 PM »
Skenandoa GC, Clinton, NY


As quintessential as it gets, it defines the mean of American golf.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross