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Sean_A

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Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC New
« on: September 29, 2021, 12:49:53 PM »


It is thought that Lord Stanley was dissatisfied with the increasing number of Sunningdale members which should come as no surprise for a man who was said to own eight houses yet didn’t live any of them. Of course, this couldn’t be true when considering Lord Stanley’s parliamentary career. In fact, he lived in a large estate near Sunningdale when sitting in parliament. It is also thought Lord Stanley found the gambling at Sunningdale distasteful, perhaps an early life financial difficulty due to gambling which required family assistance raised his ire. Finally, it may have been the club’s attitude toward women.  Lady Stanley's wfe, Lady Alice, favoured golf and for some time wasn’t permitted to play Sunningdale. Yet, being a Captain of the club, committee member and life-long member of the club, it doesn’t seem likely that the above reasons made Lord Stanley a driving force behind Swinley Forest. However, Lord Stanley (now the 17th Earl of Derby) was in favour of Swinley Forest’s founding when the subject was first raised by Colt at a Sunningdale May 1909 committee meeting. The minute of a new course near Sunningdale discussion between Colt and Colt’s near neighbour, Mr Davey, was recorded by Harry Shapland Colt, then Secretary of Sunningdale.  By the time of this committee meeting Colt was a growing force in course design with original work at Rye, Le Touquet’s La Foret and Stoke Poges, plus current projects such as Northamptonshire and Denham under his belt.  Additionally, as an advisor for Alwoodley, former Captain of the Cambridge golf team and member of the R&A Rules Committee, it is clear Colt was well regarded in both Scottish and English golf circles. With that high regard came powerful personal relationships.  In October, Alexander Davey & Colt met to further discuss the idea of purchasing land for the purpose of founding a golf club. Because of his experience in helping to establish Sunningdale, Sir Hubert Longman was enlisted to aid the fledgling project.

While the various parcels of land were being obtained by Davey (a well known solicitor), Colt was exploring the property and eventually settled on a 179-acre plot of land for his 18-hole design. Davey managed to secure good lease terms for the large majority of the needed land from the Crown Estates. It isn’t clear to me, but somehow the Earl of Derby became intimately involved with the project at this point. He invited his friends to join the enterprise. Lord Derby decided that 100 bonds at £100 each would be issued based on his membership approval. Colt was to be the Secretary with the responsibility of designing and building the course. It is likely that by this time Colt thought course design would be a lasting profession. Ingeniously, Colt engaged GA Franks to essentially prepare the land. This is the same Franks who later famously worked with CD Harris and formed what is thought to be the first specific golf construction company (Franks, Harris Bros). Incidentally, Colt was instrumental in organizing this arrangement. 

Clearing up to 14,000 trees, Colt worked with the idea that the clubhouse would sit just above Boden’s Ride, very near Davey’s cottage along the 18th fairway. The rail line would border the opening six holes and the large wetlands in the centre of the property would not be used due to drainage costs. The wetland’s border is highlighted on the 5th by the pond built in the 90s(?). Colt was fastidious in ensuring the course drained well.  To this point he built drainage ditches and pipes were laid. Many of these ditches remain in use today. Swinley is often noted for its use of vegetation to retain a sense of a natural setting .  Colt’s assistant, August Legouix, planted gorse, broom and rhododendrons. Additionally, when we consider the plateaux par 3s, raised greens and bunkers in the pads below green surfaces, Swinley Forest is in many ways the quintessential Colt course. Remarkably, it was a scant 28 months from the time the idea of Swinley Forest was first discussed to the opening date of 30 September 1911.  Rather harshly, Lord Derby decided work needed to be done on the 1st. His wife, Lady Alice, was not able to make the carry over the stream on the 1st hole. Lord Derby set aside £400 to rectify the issue. When he next played, the first fairway was remodelled with the original stream piped and the approach less steep. Lord Derby was well and truly the master of Swinley Forest.

For nearly 80 years Swinley Forest trundled along as a busy little club, but very much out of the limelight. There was one club competition, no club fixtures, no captain, no club tie, no scorecard, no par, no club logo, no bar, the club couldn’t issue handicaps as it wasn’t a member of the golf union and the course had never been properly measured.  Much of this changed when Ian Pearce was hired as the Secretary in 1988. He had the course measured and found it wanting at 5920 yards. This was soon rectified by extending the 1st by 26 yards and the 5th by 6 yards. This would achieve the required length to retain a SSS of 69 to a par of 68. A scorecard soon followed! I originally played the course at 6062 yards circa 1992. In recent years the course has been extended to 6431 from the back tees to a par of 69/SSS 71. There are also tees set at 5917, 5451 and 4956…perfection.  It is easy to mix and match one’s way around to play a course to suit one's mood and conditions. Beside these cosmetic changes, the crumbling house was repaired/upgraded and new bar added. The course was altered a bit. During the first winter of Pearce’s reign, the 3rd green was enlarged, a new 18th tee built nearer the 17th green, the 16th green was remodelled to be flatter.  In later years a pond was built on 5. To pay for the changes, membership numbers were increased from 225 to 325, dues and entry fees were doubled and more visitors paying higher fees were permitted. Minor changes have continued over the ensuing three decades which to some degree have eliminated the mystery of Swinley and brought it much more in line with other top tier London heathland clubs.

An unpreposessing start.  Nevertheless, in uncooperative weather, the 1st can play much longer than its listed 364 yards.  The steep drop-off to the rear of the green is unforgiving.


A 1912 photo of the green. The contours are obvious as are the newly planted trees down the left of the fairway.


#2


While conditions have improved dramatically over the past 10 years, features such as this hollow remain buried in rough. I notice the rear bunker was removed and it seems like mounding has been added.  I lost my ball in heather and rough not 3 yards off the green  :-[


A clever short two-shotter, the sting of the third isn't clear until at the green. Approaches from the right will be shrugged to the left side of the green. For good reasons #4 is a celebrated par three. It is often called a Redan, but this is only true in a vague sense of the word. 


An old photo of the 4th reveals that not much has changed.


Behind the green showing the tee to the left and the 5th in the background.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 07, 2022, 06:57:01 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-4
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2021, 02:53:57 PM »
:)
Atb

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-4
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2021, 07:14:38 PM »
Not much has changed in that we still have to wait to hit on par 3s? 


Great pics.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-4
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2021, 07:52:14 PM »
Thank you Sean -
that introductory post alone 'outweighs' all the threads about clubhouses, clothes, kalens and even critics combined!

« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 08:18:24 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-4
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2021, 06:11:39 AM »
Swinley Forest Tour Cont

A down and up hill hole, the three-shot 5th is a bit of a missed opportunity. A tee much further forward would bring the pond properly in play as a par 4. Below is the original version of the hole.


The 6-8 run plays through a shallow valley and consists of three straight holes. Being downhill, the 6th doesn't play as long as the card suggests, but the forward greenside bunkers are tricky to negotiate in keen conditions. A more interesting hole, the fairway on the 7th is cut off by rough clad mounds.


The uphill green drapes beatifully over the land.  Again, it looks like mounding to the rear of the green has been enhanced.


At this point, the tree and rhododendron removal is delightfully obvious. The views down the hill right are outstanding. 

12th green with the 9th in the background.


13 & 14.


A lovely hole, the short 8th features another excellent green.


Easily the most radical transformation since my last visit, with trees and rhodos cleared left of the 9th, there is some breathing room as originally envisioned. Although, the bunker scheme is different today and more trees down the left could be removed.




The approach after a layup.


Colt seemed to enjoy employing false fronts for steeply uphill approach shots. This view also offers an indication of tree growth over the years.


The view from near the 10th tee.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 01:03:17 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-9
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2021, 06:31:55 AM »
I completely agree on the removal of the rhododendrons.  Not only are the views across the course from the 7th and 8th now fantastic, it’s also made a great hole in the 12th (probably my favourite anywhere) even better.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-9
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2021, 08:42:01 AM »
Good stuff, Sean. Thanks.


Bob

Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-4
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2021, 10:26:31 AM »

I'm glad to see a photo tour of Swinley Forest, which is inarguably one of the best 3 or 4 courses within 2 hours of London. The club has been putting a lot of work into the course these past few years. I didn't see the course before the tree and rhododendron removal, but I've read that the course had become claustrophobic and the removals must have been very effective because I didn't feel that at all.


But some of the work that the club has been doing seems to me to be questionable. There's the total redo of 17 which I'm sure we'll discuss. But the club also appears to have added heather-covered mounding around several of the greens which I didn't really like.


The best example is the seventh. Here's a picture that I took in summer 2018 of the seventh green. The left and back of the green were flat. I thought that this simplicity around the green was nice because it's a very difficult uphill par 4 that forces a layup for almost all, leaving a blind approach.







And here's Sean's picture of the new seventh green:


Swinley Forest Tour Cont

The uphill green drapes beatifully over the land.




I don't think that the work looks bad at all in its own right, but I don't understand why it was necessary. I think that it takes some of the balance out of the hole. And it's not an isolated case; the mounding around the back of the second and fifth greens also looked fairly new (the heather was certainly new). Other Colt courses have this mounding around some of the greens (including the par 3 8th here) so maybe the idea was to enhance the green surroundings in a style that he used. But I'm not sure why you'd add what wasn't there in the first place, unless this mounding was part of the original design but had been removed.

In any case, I look forward to the rest of the photo tour and to comments on some of my favorite holes like 9 and 12, two of the best long par 4s that I've seen.

n.b. I've done my own review of Swinley Forest on my website: http://www.brettandrewmeyer.com/golf-course-reviews/swinley-forest

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-9
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2021, 11:57:54 AM »
Yank
So timely as I just played there three weeks ago.  I intend to start a thread soon which compares the triumvirate of heathland courses I played and which are well suited for a focused comparison: Sunningdale Old, St George's , and SWF.
I really like the graceful flow of SWF routing and the views across the playing field; standing on 13 tee i believe I could see up or down at least six holes and what a stunning panorama.
We also very much enjoyed the superlative fish cakes at luncheon and the road stand feel of the snack hut at 9 green which had just enough selection. The parlor across from the catering room is one of the most tasteful and comfortable rooms I have seen in  a long while. Not golf design but very welcome atmosphere touches
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-4
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2021, 03:18:29 PM »

I'm glad to see a photo tour of Swinley Forest, which is inarguably one of the best 3 or 4 courses within 2 hours of London. The club has been putting a lot of work into the course these past few years. I didn't see the course before the tree and rhododendron removal, but I've read that the course had become claustrophobic and the removals must have been very effective because I didn't feel that at all.

But some of the work that the club has been doing seems to me to be questionable. There's the total redo of 17 which I'm sure we'll discuss. But the club also appears to have added heather-covered mounding around several of the greens which I didn't really like.

The best example is the seventh. Here's a picture that I took in summer 2018 of the seventh green. The left and back of the green were flat. I thought that this simplicity around the green was nice because it's a very difficult uphill par 4 that forces a layup for almost all, leaving a blind approach.



And here's Sean's picture of the new seventh green:


Swinley Forest Tour Cont

The uphill green drapes beatifully over the land.



I don't think that the work looks bad at all in its own right, but I don't understand why it was necessary. I think that it takes some of the balance out of the hole. And it's not an isolated case; the mounding around the back of the second and fifth greens also looked fairly new (the heather was certainly new). Other Colt courses have this mounding around some of the greens (including the par 3 8th here) so maybe the idea was to enhance the green surroundings in a style that he used. But I'm not sure why you'd add what wasn't there in the first place, unless this mounding was part of the original design but had been removed.

In any case, I look forward to the rest of the photo tour and to comments on some of my favorite holes like 9 and 12, two of the best long par 4s that I've seen.

n.b. I've done my own review of Swinley Forest on my website: http://www.brettandrewmeyer.com/golf-course-reviews/swinley-forest


Brett

I did notice some of the greenside mounding. I am not sure if this is a return to the orginal design or thought to be a good idea of a current architect.

SWINLEY FOREST TOUR CONT

The back nine starts off with a difficult short hole of some 195 yards. Like the 9th, the green is very much of the false front variety.




Just off the back off the green is the forward tee for #11 which, unlike the back tees, offers a view of the hole.  The yardage is essentially a very long par 3 and an excellent one at that. The 15th is in the background left.




The 11th just forward of the 12th tee.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 01:10:22 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-4
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2021, 06:50:47 AM »


Easily the most radical transformation since my last visit, with trees and rhodos cleared left of the 9th, there is some breathing room as originally envisioned. Although, the bunker scheme is different today and more trees down the left could be removed.






I thought that 9 was not only one of the 2 or 3 best holes on the course, but, along with 12, in the small handful of best long par 4s that I've seen. You really want to get to the outside of the fairway to play into the deepest aspect of the green. But unless you're a short hitter, that means that you have to skirt/carry the bunker in the fairway (about a 230 carry from the tips) and stop your drive short of the heather-covered ridges on the right or curve it right to left. It's a very difficult drive in the summer when the fairways are firm, but always a great one. I think that I prefer Colt's mounds and heather up the left to the current bunker, but the effect is similar.

I also thought that the approach was great. It reminded me of that on the fifth hole on Pinehurst no. 2 with the bunkers left and the right-to-left slope coming into the green. It looked especially good on my visit:



11 may be a good 230 yard par 3 from the tees just behind the 10th green, but what made the hole for me was the uphill, blind drive from the 335 yard back tees. A few uphill, blind drives are what make an English course an English course and this one shouldn't be too hard if you're conservative; if you hit less than 230, you only have to contend with the partially visible first fairway bunker on the left. If you can carry it 240 uphill, you can carry the second fairway bunker on the left and go for the green, but you have more fairway bunkers on the right at 280 if you push your drive.

I'm not a long hitter so I just laid up, but I think that this is an excellent driving hole from the back tees for longer hitters. There's a lot of risk for an inaccurate shot (you definitely don't want to pull it), but the area in front of the green is fairly simple and it's wide enough to be worth trying to hit if you can make the carry. Regardless of where you drive it, the approach into the green is not as interesting because it's fairly large and modestly contoured. Actually, it makes sense as a green on a long par 3. But I thought that this was such an excellent driving hole that I didn't mind a less-interesting green.

A view from the back tees:




And a view to the green with 15 in the background:


Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-11
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2021, 03:25:29 PM »
There is a feel at Swinley Forest that few others have.  I have only played there twice but felt like I was playing a private facility that was someone's back yard.  It feels relaxing.  The locals always have their favorite stories about a neighborhood places.  This one goes like this:
"Berkshire has many fine gentlemen as members and a few good golfers.
Sunningdales has many fine golfers as members and a few gentlemen.
At Swinley every member is a gentleman and they don't give a twit about golf."
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-11
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2021, 04:50:21 AM »
Brett

I agree the 11th daily tee is fine, but I have played that tee before. Besides, I don't see the point in walking away from a good tee to an obscured position. It's very counter intuitive for me. It was good to see the hole from what is probably an original tee.

Yes, the 12th is one of the best holes in the London Heathlands!

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 04:03:42 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-11
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2021, 09:33:44 AM »
The heather at SF is outstanding and combined with Walton Heath I think some of the finest views when in bloom. Stunning photos Sean.

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-11 New
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2021, 08:30:11 AM »
Jeff

Thanks. My camera seems to have overcompensated for darkness as the colour is too green in most of the photos!

Swinley Forest Tour Cont

There is a select group of London heathland holes which stand above the multitude of run of the mill excellent holes. These are holes which I consider All-England candidates and make it worth while to play courses more than the perfunctory once or twice. In the London heathlands a few these holes are 13 Addington, 5 & 6 Sunny New, 12 Sunny Old, 8 & 10 St Georges Hill, 1 Berkshire Blue, 10 Berkshire Red, 3 Woking, 15 Liphook etc. Swinley's 12th is one such hole and perhaps the best of the lot. No matter how far one hits the ball, the 12th is exceptionally engaging and entertaining from tee to hole.

With options available left, right and over the top, the forward bunker is effectively a centreline placement despite not appearing to be so.




A photo from 10-12 years ago prior to tree and rhodo removal (behind the green). The most hidden bunker on the far side of the fairway can be seen as well.








The quality of Swinley's short holes is such that the 13th could well be the weakest of the lot!


The knob flowing from the front bunker can just be made out in the photo below. Also notice the subtle difference with the bunkers. There are now three bunkers on the left when there were once two. I prefer the older look.  It is great to see the path and various bushes removed!


The next three holes are a bit of a lull. 14th is a tricky short par 4 with a subtlely elevated green. It does offer some variety, but the uphill 15th is not a hole I much admire. Despite the sharp two-tier green, the 16th is not a hole to note.  15 & 16 below. I think the front of 15 green is a bit more abrupt than previously. I seem to recall it being easier to bounce a shot up. I wonder if the front was reshaped to encourage an aerial approach.




A photo of the green from about 10 years ago.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 07, 2022, 07:03:30 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC 1-16
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2021, 06:08:41 AM »
Saying that the 12th at Swinley Forest is a great hole is about as controversial as saying that the 13th at Augusta National is a great hole. It might be the best long par 4 that I've played and the strongest competition is probably Swinley's 9th hole.

Two comments; one negative, one positive. The negative comment is that if you play from the tips, it's a very awkward drive because the trees on the left are very close to the line on which you want to drive it. This is a good example of something that I dislike: an unbalanced drive, where there's a lot more room on one side of the line of play than the other. The back tee is wider than it is long and it's much less of an issue from the right side of the tee box than the left side. But the awkwardness just hurts the hole and I think that it'd be better if they either shifted the back tee a bit to the right or removed some of the trees on the left.

The positive is that as beautiful as the sweeping approach to the green is, it's even better than it looks in photos because most photos don't really capture the heaving contours on the approach into the green. The last 60 yards of fairway almost reminded me of the wild ride into the 3rd green at Royal Cinque Ports. These were some of the most links-like contours that I saw on any of the heathland courses around London. I tried to capture this with the following photo but you need to walk it to really get a sense:



Sean, I agree that there's a good case for 13 as the weakest par 3 (which says a lot for the course) but my least favorite was 8 because I didn't like the mounding around the green. I suspect that it's original because they weren't covered in newly planted heather like the 2nd or 7th and you see similar mounding around some of Colt's greens on Sunningdale's New course.

14 isn't a particularly interesting hole but the subtly raised green is a beauty. This simpler green offsets some of the challenging approaches in the previous few holes. This balance from hole-to-hole in the complexity of the green sites was something that I really liked about Swinley and I'm concerned that with the new additions of mounds/heather around some of the greens, the course will lose some of this balance. A view from just short:



I'm not entirely sure what to make of 15. Even from the tips, the bunkers are only about a 215 carry and the fairway is very wide past that. It's a very difficult second shot if you're going for the green because a mishit can roll well back down the hill. I know that it used to be a long par 4 from the middle tees and given that the fairway bunkers still aren't a challenge for the better player from the back tees, it might work better as a long par 4.

I found 16 to be very awkward and difficult because you can't see the fairway from the tee and again, the trees are a little bit close on one side (this time on the right). It also narrows past the bunkers at about 230, which you can't tell from the tee. I think that the best play is to lay back to the point where the fairway narrows but this leaves ~175+ and the green is very narrow/steeply two-tiered. I'd disagree that it's not a hole to note--it's notable because it's so hard.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC New
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2021, 05:39:03 AM »
Brett

Its the 16th green which I don't care for. It seems to be betwixt and between....not quite bold enough to justify the somewhat out of character aesthetic. I know the green was softened some years ago.

Swinley Forest Tour Cont

Over time the 17th has been altered from tee to green. There has been much controversy over the recent changes to the green end of the 17th. To some degree I concur, but I think over time people will realize the hole remains very good.


I think the left bunker is good as it now faces more directly toward the tee as was the original intent as seen below. The removal of the bunker behind this is neither here nor there imo. In any case, I am not sure it was original.


My main issues are twofold. First, the removal of the left knob which is clear as day in the old photo above. Second, the forward right bunker is more set back toward the green, ironically, more like it was originally. This hole reminds me quite a bit of Dornoch's 2nd with danger left and right and safety short. The old placement made the short play a more thoughtful shot even if it wasn't original to Colt's design.

Just as the 17th is now controversial, the 18th was as well a decade or so ago.  The remaining left fairway bunker and a no longer existing small centreline bunker were built. I think it was the right decision to remove the centreline bunker. Now and approximately 10 years ago.




Regardless of other changes, as is the case for all the holes, the terrain remains a constant. The approach is uphill and going beyond the hole is generally not a good idea. This photo is from the front of the 1st tee.


The house is very charming and decidely non-golfy. Although, I did see a newly expanded bar. Below is the lounge.




Despite the dour day, it was a great pleasure to become reacquainted Swinley Forest. One of my biggest issues with the Swinley in days gone by was the conditioning. That is no longer a problem, but I do wonder if the course is wetter than it should be. Much more importantly, the Colt design stands tall today as much as it ever did.  4 & 12 are  All-England candidates with the 12th possibly being the best hole in the London Heathlands.  As one would expect, the short holes are stellar as is the 9th.  Perhaps most impressive, Swinley offers exceptional variation given the longest hole is 480 yards (in praise of daily tees).  This package may come in under 6000 yards, but when the uphill nature of many approaches, harsh heather penalties for missing the fairways and the clever greens are considered, Swinley is a serious test for handicap golfers. This is moreso the case when we consider that the 5th and 15th are par 5s in name only. From the daily tees par should be a heartaching 67!  I can only hope it doesn't take me another 10 years to revisit. 2* 2021



Ciao
« Last Edit: January 08, 2024, 04:26:12 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2021, 06:03:34 AM »
The funniest thing to me about the new 17th green is that they appear to have built it like the green has been there for 80 years and shrunk away from the bunkers. Designing lost putting surface into a new-build?!


As best I can gather, they’ve done the most recent work without a golf course architect involved. It certainly looks it.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2021, 06:16:58 AM »
I'm pretty sure that the issue with the eighteenth is that Colt designed it as a 'challenge the OB' drive back in the days when OB was a one shot penalty, not two. I believe there was fairway to the left boundary (over which, fwiw, is the house called Bodens Ride, which was built for himself by club founder Alexander Davey) and the closer you put your drive to the boundary, the better your line to the green.


Clearly over time this strategy became impossible due to safety concerns and the unwillingness of golfers to risk a stroke and distance penalty for a better line to the green. The new-look bunkering is consequently an improvement on what was there, but I think the hole could stand some more work to create a new strategy.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2021, 06:31:33 AM »
I don’t know Swinley but that centreline bunker looks perfectly placed on 18 if the fairway was extended left.


EDIT: Now reading Adam’s post, are there houses in those trees on the left?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 06:33:05 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC New
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2021, 06:38:05 AM »
The funniest thing to me about the new 17th green is that they appear to have built it like the green has been there for 80 years and shrunk away from the bunkers. Designing lost putting surface into a new-build?!

As best I can gather, they’ve done the most recent work without a golf course architect involved. It certainly looks it.

Scott

I don't recall, but I think the green was bigger out toward the left knob. The green seems to be smaller, but I am not certain.

Adam

Was the 18th tee pushed away from the boundary some years ago? I recall some issues about drainage but my memory is hazy. There is a mcmansion being built where Boden's Ride was.

Ally

The centreline bunker was very wishy washy.
 

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 20, 2022, 01:17:30 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2021, 07:14:51 AM »
Having not been there before I was fortunate to be guided around Swinley by the Detroit Golfer.
And what a pleasure. Magnificent course, Clubhouse etc. “The style I’d like to become accustomed too” as someone once said. Not sure I’d appreciate living in that general area though, far, far, far to busy for an essentially rural enthusiast such as me.
Over the years I’d heard that the courses conditioning wasn’t as it could be but based on my visit there it’s more than fine now. Very fine indeed.
An aspect of note to me was how damp the underlying terrain in general must be. Ditches all over the place, not just course features ones but loads hidden in the heather and all with flowing water, which given the dryness of the weeks proceeding my visit was something of a surprise.
Also how fairway and approach irrigation has changed the playability of heathland (and links) golf. Numerous times I attempted to play what I consider to be an important aspect of heathland courses, as indeed highlighted in some of the photos posted above, the need to land the ball short of greens and allow for bounce and release. This just didn’t work at Swinley. The approaches were simply too soft and lush. Shots, even low trajectory ones played without spin, would just grab and stop. Infuriating from a playability point of view.
An opportunity to play Swinley is not one that should be turned down.
Atb
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 07:36:29 AM by Thomas Dai »

Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2021, 01:38:26 PM »


Over time the 17th has been altered from tee to green. There has been much controversy over the recent changes to the green end of the 17th. To some degree I concur, but I think over time people will realize the hole remains very good.



Sean, I agree with you that the work on 17 is fine and it remains a good hole. But my question is: How was something like this supposed to be an improvement? It was a very difficult par 3 before with a small green and steep drop-offs to the size and especially at the back (I learned about that one the hard way). But, there was ample room to miss short and a pitch from just short of the green wasn't hard. The previous version exemplified the sense of balance that I mentioned before which is so strong at Swinley: the difficulty at the back and sides of the green was balanced by the simplicity in front. Just like the simple green site on the 7th balanced the difficulty of the rest of the hole. In fairness, I haven't played the new version of the hole but it looks like the misses to the sides now result in much easier shots and if that was the point, I think that they defeated a big part of the purpose of the original hole. 

Here's a view of the old 17th from the tee. You can see the drop-off on the left and there was a similar one on the right. Both of those areas appear to have been leveled out in the alterations.





[/size]Also how fairway and approach irrigation has changed the playability of heathland (and links) golf. Numerous times I attempted to play what I consider to be an important aspect of heathland courses, as indeed highlighted in some of the photos posted above, the need to land the ball short of greens and allow for bounce and release. This just didn’t work at Swinley. The approaches were simply too soft and lush. Shots, even low trajectory ones played without spin, would just grab and stop. Infuriating from a playability point of view.


Thomas, I agree that for much of the year, you can't play bump-and-run shots on almost any heathland course. With the exception of maybe Hankley Common, they were all on heavier soil. Although you can't play bump-and-runs too well on links courses in the winter either.

But I give the heathland courses a lot of credit. If there's been a dry spell, even the ones with fairway irrigation don't seem to turn it on. The summer of 2018 was very hot and dry and every course that I played was burnt up. West Sussex was so burnt up that they installed fairway irrigation after that. But Camberley Heath and a few others had sprinkler heads everywhere and yet every fairway was brown.

I understand that they still have to water the greens and sometimes that watering gets a bit too far into the approach, which makes it difficult to play bump-and-runs. But they still let the weather dictate the conditions and in July 2018, it was easy to play a bump and run at Swinley; I holed a 9-iron for a 2 from 40 yards on the 3rd!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2021, 02:36:26 PM »
Can’t say I agree with your assessment Brett.
Having played links and heathland golf in GB for just about 50 yrs the ground game has always been an option even in the winter as sandy soil drains so well when confronted with nature.
However, things have changed since the hand of man intervened and installed irrigated fairways and approaches at some of the more higher profile and cash rich links and heathland courses. These days even sand based courses that have only been watering their fairways and approaches for just a few years and only in the main season, are now having issues with spongy, soft ground and thatch etc build-up, and this is at courses laid out over sand based terrain.
In addition, in GB there is the matter of water abstraction licenses where golf courses are only allocated a certain amount of water usage by government bodies. And when things get really burnt-up and dry in a GB summer restrictions are placed by government bodies on watering golf courses, similarly on public parks, football pitches etc etc. When the proverbial hits the fan water wise golf comes low down on the priority list but this is a side issue to the matter of irrigation reducing the option of the ground game even on sand based heathland courses and links.
Atb


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sweet SWINLEY FOREST GC
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2021, 03:00:23 PM »
David,


You don’t need to name them if you don’t wish…  but my experience in Ireland is that most of the links courses are still very fiery in the winter…. I can think of one or two that play a little softer but not convinced that is fairway irrigation’s hand.


All that said, there’s no doubt that you are right that it has played a role over the last 30 years in reducing that “runs forever” feeling you got on fairways as hard as stone.

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