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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why don't they make a fuss?

Because in their humility as weaker and/or lessor skilled golfers, they assume that the fault lies in themselves and not in the set-up, and believe that they need to accommodate themselves to the golf course rather than expect the golf course to be tailored to them.

Then, as their handicaps go down their pride-ego increases and they start to expect precisely that, ie that the golf course be tailored to fit their 8-10 handicaps, and they complain if it doesn't and rank/rate the course harshly.


Bingo
they think the problem lays with them.

And, Bingo! the low handicap thinks the problem lies with the course.

Alister Mackenzie pointed this out when he related the story of the sticks getting one of his courses modified to their liking whereupon he built another course next door, and the rest of the membership (non-sticks) move en masse to the new course.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just because a fat man shops at the big and tall store doesn't mean he wouldn't prefer Armani.

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
I can't wrap my head around the premise of this thread. Why wouldn't these people just flat-out prefer to play elsewhere rather than complain that a particular course doesn't fit their game? Would you suggest they also show up at Yankee Stadium and demand the fences are too deep and that other people are too good and preventing them from playing in the majors? Or should they go to a pizza place and demand burritos? Please explain what I'm missing.


You've clearly never lived in a small town with one golf course.


Besides, when the "harder is better" crowd butchers an otherwise amazing golf course, isn't it incumbent on saner players to do something about it?


Who said anything about butchering an amazing golf course? The original post basically just says if a course doesn't fit your (seemingly weak or deteriorating) game, you should complain and try to get it changed. Which is ridiculous.


And who says you can only play in your home town? I live in Southern California where courses are plentiful but I still rarely play within 30 miles of where I live. All these years I never realized I should have been complaining that most of the courses near me are not tailored to my exact, individual preferences.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,


That last post comes off sounding "privileged" which in this day and age, isn't a great look, LOL.


You are right in that in a country with 14,000 golf courses, and with major metro regions offering over 100, the variety of courses should allow play to filter out to each and every taste.


But Ken is right, too. Not only in small towns, but larger ones, where the biggest distance issue is the distance from your front door to the first tee.  Most golf is played within 20 miles of the house.  Or, a blend. I play the closest few courses mostly, but go golfing once a year (or so) out of state, and maybe a few times a year to a course further out of town for variety, challenge, because a friend wants to play there, or to see new architecture.


As a result, I have often thought that local, play everyday courses ought to (or just do) "pander" (micro-aggression right there, given the customer is always right) to a fairly low common denominator.  The typical example is the muni really being designed around the C-D player's typical game, vs. the club designed for perhaps A and B, but in reality, they need to accommodate C golfers, as well.  Rounds are hard to obtain these days, and few courses are willing to ignore any golfer segment, much less the C and D players who make up about 80% of the customers.


Even the so-called country clubs for a day evolved to answer market niches like yours, i.e., the better player wants a challenge and is willing to drive to do it.  But, C and D players will also play there.  I don't know how old you are, but Ken M is 78.  It's hard to say golf is the game of a lifetime if you set up courses that are just too hard for the senior set (of which I am one, officially as of last year)  You will find soon enough that your own distance is declining, putting skills deteriorating, etc.  It happens to all of us!


From the above, you look for features that don't hurt average players but still affect better players, avoiding forced carries, long rough, super fast greens, etc.  While good players may balk at super slow greens the average green speed in the US is still 9.5, according to my sources.  Some back tee players complain about having to look over forward tees for those of us with deteriorating (or never had) golf games.


It's all part of the balance between the good of the whole vs the good of the individual, and most courses probably should ask the A and B players to put up with a bit lesser challenge than they may be capable of conquering for the good of the whole.  Obviously, they have the ability to move pins around for special days.  And, as we have seen on several threads, even better golfers prefer a challenge that they can match their typical score or even shoot a career best, without feeling a bit guilty because the course was too easy.


It's a tough balance, for sure.  And, each individual course answers that question differently, based on inherent design quality, etc.  A mountain course may never be a walking course.  A men only private club may feel free to toughen up the course (if any of those still exist...I suspect its 14 out of 14,000, maybe 140 tops.


So, butchering a course was probably too strong a phrase for Ken to use, although everyone gets emotional about architectural issues.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
I do not prefer courses where I can shoot my best score I just want to talk about them when I do.


20 yrs ago I moved from a course where I was disappointed not to break par to a course where breaking 80 was a huge win. I really, really hate the pressure easy courses put on putting. It's honestly nice to make a double or two and not have your day ruined. Of course all you high handicaps already knew that.

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,


That last post comes off sounding "privileged" which in this day and age, isn't a great look, LOL.



I think there's a lot of context missing in this thread, especially from the original post. And apparently from mine, too, because the reason I'm usually driving long distances is to find a decent course that's in my budget. Near me, most anything "good" is $150+. I certainly didn't mean to sound "privileged."


To me, sounding privileged is asking courses to change to suit your preferences to the detriment of the course architect's intent.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Attempting to see matters through the eyes of others can be useful. For example, viewing golf from the perspective of other players or groups of players, players who may be of a different age, gender, physical capability etc to yourself and the folks you usually play with. Live and play the game for a long enough period of time and you’ll likely actually personally experience different stages of playing the game.
For example, the thick grassy lie you could successfully extract a ball from with a full swing and land softly on a green a good distance away when you are young, fit and strong won’t be the same thickness of grass your body will allow to hit equally successfully from when you are more aged. And yet the majority of golfers are in the upper age groups. Same with trajectory of shots, distance over forced carries etc.
Yet golf courses are usually laid out and set-up etc to suit the younger, physically stronger generation. Those of different genders or in other phases of their lives, the majority of golfers, don’t seem to complain about set-ups and the like though, which is strange in that they are well capable, indeed frequently used to, complaining or making a fuss in other aspects of life.
Atb

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thomas - Ability to see things through others eyes is a great, simpler explanation. Like all other items on this thread, and to Mark's point, that too, goes across the spectrum, as in, I'll put up with too hard (or easy, or ugly, a course.....to a point.  And that is where having 100 courses or more in a metro area is a great thing, presuming all don't fall into a few narrow categories.  That sometimes happens.  In the recent recession, it was all too prevalent for courses to compete on price, thus lowering maintenance levels to cut costs to at least break even.


Mark, you are right, and as per above, this thread lacks comprehensive context, which is what I was trying to provide, but maybe Thomas Dai did it better.


As to changing architect's intent, on any modern design, it should be tuned to the owner's business intent, but there is often a disconnect on that.  For older courses, the business intent often changes, most typically from a private club to a muni course after the private club turns out to not be viable.  Or in more modern times, a real estate course with a hundred bunkers positioned to give great views from surrounding houses to a public course after the houses sell whose main goal is getting customers around in 4 hours or so.  And then, there is just the natural tendency to tweak things, right or wrong, like ANGC.  Sometimes, things just don't work out as the architect intended, or they were forced into a bad situation (think Merion with the original road crossings, which were solved when an additional parcel became available years later to complete the existing design, etc.)


Short version there are probably too many contexts to address in one simplistic thread, and yet, we try, LOL.  As to Thomas' original post, why do they put up with courses they cannot play, has been answered a few times.  First, they do vote with their pocketbooks, if they can't afford more, or won't drive further, they grin and bear it with minimal grumbling.


It may be a US thing.  If you travel overseas, you find that bargaining is more a part of any shopping, while in the US we tend to look at the price tag and assume it's firm in most cases. Maybe we just take golf courses the same way, making a yes or no decision on buying that green fee.


To Corey Miller's point, Golf Digest has a "Places you can play" ranking which is the opinions of public golfers.  The favorites among that group are often far different than what we might favor here, and I think it was intended for average public golfers to have a an informal list of courses liked by similar golfers, which I think is valuable. Yelp ratings can do the same.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
I can't wrap my head around the premise of this thread. Why wouldn't these people just flat-out prefer to play elsewhere rather than complain that a particular course doesn't fit their game? Would you suggest they also show up at Yankee Stadium and demand the fences are too deep and that other people are too good and preventing them from playing in the majors? Or should they go to a pizza place and demand burritos? Please explain what I'm missing.


You've clearly never lived in a small town with one golf course.


Besides, when the "harder is better" crowd butchers an otherwise amazing golf course, isn't it incumbent on saner players to do something about it?


Who said anything about butchering an amazing golf course? The original post basically just says if a course doesn't fit your (seemingly weak or deteriorating) game, you should complain and try to get it changed. Which is ridiculous.


Well, I went back and read the original post.  And you're right, it didn't mention changes to a the course.  But in my defense, I'd point out that there are dozens of threads on this site, going back to it's beginning, that detail changes to both classic and modern courses that add trees and long rough to the detriment of the course.

In my own life, I have been a member at three courses where someone got control of the green committee and reduced fairway width by 40%, grew 6-inch rough, and planted trees in place that only impacted players who hit it under 200 yards off the tee.

So I'm a little sensitive to this problem.  Even when I was a single digit handicapper, I played golf with the women in my family, and saw how completely unrealistic it was to expect them to play out of deep rough or anywhere with forced carries.


And who says you can only play in your home town? I live in Southern California where courses are plentiful but I still rarely play within 30 miles of where I live. All these years I never realized I should have been complaining that most of the courses near me are not tailored to my exact, individual preferences.


Also, your perspective as a Southern Californian isn't unusual, I guess.  But us deplorables who choose to live in flyover country, sometimes find them lacking perspective.


Driving 30 miles one way after work to play nine is silly, and where I lived for 23 in SD it wasn't even that.  The closest decent 18-hole course that wasn't in the town where I lived was closer to 125 miles away.  And the one in town still would only cost $955/year for my and me. When we lived there 20+ years ago it was about half that.


We played about five times a week back then, given that there's 15 1/2 hours of daylight in June and July, with sundown at about 9:30.


So I figure my rant is perfectly attuned to the situations I'ved faced in my life, even if your mileage varies.


Oh, and Brauer, it's bad enough that I'm 73... adding 5 years is just cruel.   8)
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
 :o :-\


Ken, went from memory, sorry......I feel shame.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Attempting to see matters through the eyes of others can be useful.


That's rich in a thread dedicated to asking courses to change to suit your specific skill set throughout your lifetime.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Attempting to see matters through the eyes of others can be useful.
That's rich in a thread dedicated to asking courses to change to suit your specific skill set throughout your lifetime.
Mark,
May I suggest you re-read carefully what I’ve said.
Atb

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
This thread begs the start of a new thread of how to design for the highly skilled while letting everyone else just play ....


Suggestion: defend against the too easy birdie.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Carl,


Somewhere I have posted a story I have retold many times about the gca playing the course with members during a master plan, finding a short par 5, and recommending it be toughened up.  Then, he birdied the hole, high fives all around, and it dawned on him....I (and by extension, many if not all golfers) love birdies, so why would we design to prevent them?


That said, your thread idea is a good one, which I would tend to answer in philosophical ways, while others would just give random examples.  I did sort of lay out a theory above, based on designing features that don't kill the average golfer, while providing challenge to the better players.


Examples include avoiding:


-Forced carries, which kill the average golfer and don't trouble those who don't top shots regularly.
-Narrow play corridors
-Wild greens (although gently rolling is just fine, and if we believe conventional wisdom, may bother better players more than average ones.)
-Small greens.
-Excessive sand bunkers, especially in high play areas by C players, i.e., front right of green
-Deep rough and native areas (it takes strength to get out of those)
-Penal targets (i.e., only one way to play that requires negotiation of hazards listed above.


Maintenance items to be considered are items that can change fairly easily for competitive events, like green speed and rough heights, while remaining playable every day.  Corridor width, forced carries and excessive bunkering will remain.


That is the kind of balance most courses and architects seem to shoot for. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just because a fat man shops at the big and tall store doesn't mean he wouldn't prefer Armani.


I shop at High & Mighty because Armani don't make suits for slim guys 6' 5" tall - I don't fit their (limited) desired outcome.
Just like you low handicappers don't want to allow me the chance of that odd recovery shot.


Just ask any woman about clothes sizing from the fascinista's.  Couldn't golf be a little more inclusive than haute couture?


There are other places to shop for clothes, but the low cappers seem to have a strangle hold on set up at most courses I know.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 05:41:23 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's called low cap privilege. I've yet to see a reserved parking spot for the D Flight champion. No one would want to park in spot won Net. Even the birds hate those guis.






John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why do physically weaker and lessor skilled players put up with a club championship based on skill? The idea that these guys get their names on the wall forever, and occasionally a parking spot for a year is simply not fair.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
My long time work mate (30+ years) and I got out today.....a bit warm but the place we played was in great condition given the very warm weather we've had a the recent torrential evening thunderstorms.


Fairways were tight, rough not too high and greens rolling a bit quick.


We didn't look for a ball until his tee shot on #18.  I's say neither of us trimmed any strokes off our GHIN's but not having to look for a ball until the last hole said we were keeping 'em close to in play and the rough ws not long for our errant ones.


Got around in 3:30.


PS:  I'm betting JK would be simply dashing in a properly tailored Armani suit, Hermes tie & Gucci loafers.




John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Last time I went shopping for a great suit a rather bad breathed haberdasher whispered the address of Men’s Warehouse in my ear. I now enjoy my disposable menswear.

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