18th at Olympic - US Women's Open

[Thomas Dai]

Thoughts on this?
atb

[Cal Seifert]

I do not follow much professional womens golf.  Does the USGA typically set courses up like this for the women?  I do not remember them setting up CC of Charleston like this.

[Anthony Fowler]

Thanks for sharing. That certainly looks intimidating.

According to this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORX5oAnuMak) the hole is 326 yards long and the fairway is 19 yards wide.

The landing area is even narrower if you consider the slope and firmness of the fairway.

But we are talking about a short hole and the straightest hitters in the world, so maybe it's okay to make them hit a really precise layup shot like this once per year. 

[David_Tepper]

This picture does not show the landing area, which is in the swale well below the portions of the hole shown in the photo. My guess is the fairway is wider in the landing area.

I am heading out the Olympic in about 5 minutes and will walk by this hole in less than an hour. When I get home later this evening I will pass along any further info based on what I see in person.

Asking for comments and/or passing judgement based on a photo like this, which shows a very incomplete view of the hole, is kind of pointless.


 

[Daryl David]

My bet is that David is right. It’s not as bad as it looks. But seriously, you have to admit, it’s butt ugly.

[Tim Passalacqua]

Looks awesome.  One of the most special tee shots and settings in golf.  I was there for a few rounds 2 weeks ago. Plenty wide to hit a long iron or hybrid down the hill.  You would want 100 to 130 in for your approach.  It starts tapering up the hill at about 70 yards out. Left side of the fairway gets you a straight angle to the narrow green.  The farther right, the trickier it gets.  The only fairway that was noticeably skinnier was #1.

[Tim Passalacqua]

Thanks for sharing. That certainly looks intimidating.

According to this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORX5oAnuMak) the hole is 326 yards long and the fairway is 19 yards wide.

The landing area is even narrower if you consider the slope and firmness of the fairway.

But we are talking about a short hole and the straightest hitters in the world, so maybe it's okay to make them hit a really precise layup shot like this once per year.

I just watched the video and it’s 19 yards wide at 80 yards out where the fairway is shrinking.  I would bet the driving zone is 25-30 yards wide.  In 2012, it was 22 yards wide for the men.  Fairways seem to be much wider this week.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Thoughts on this?
atb

Don't you mean iou rather than atb? 

[William_G]

small tough green and intimidating drive, great finishing hole

[David_Tepper]

Viewing the hole this evening from the hillside behind and above the green, the landing area looked plenty wide for me, especially given that it is such a short hole.

Yet another example where looking at one photo and then passing judgement on a hole, especially a hole with so much slope, elevation change and contour, is a dubious exercise.

[Tim_Weiman]

Thomas,


It has been 30 years since I played Olympic, but my memory is that #18 used to look a lot better. Honestly, I think it looks awful. The bunker presentation is way over the top.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for your thoughts, different perspectives and local insights. More welcome.
Atb

[Joel_Stewart]

My bet is that David is right. It’s not as bad as it looks. But seriously, you have to admit, it’s butt ugly.

The hole (and course) has been renovated twice in the last 10 years.  The superintendent and his ass hole architect friend have been fired.  They had no appreciation for classic architecture or how to cut fairways.  What you can't see is how deep and penal the bunkers are.


Gil Hanse has been hired to restore the course and is preparing a master plan.

[PCCraig]

They were narrowing the fairways at Pine Needles this past winter in anticipation of the Women's Open as well.


Really kind of silly and unnecessary, especially at a place like Pine Needles where the greens dictate angles of attack from the fairway so much. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

It is impossible to tell from the picture, but did they soften the slope on the green. Twenty-five years ago I putted off the green.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Yes, Tommy, the green was flattened (too much) after the Payne Stewart runaway putt.  They over-flattened it, but maybe they corrected that.

[Jason Thurman]

So how do/would you play this 326 yard 18th hole of a major championship?


And if you think the hole needs to be "fixed" or improved, what would you do?

[David_Tepper]

Comments from Brian Thompson's blog about playing the 18th hole:

"It sounds easy enough on the card, but the home hole is proof that a hard hole doesn’t have to be long.  The prevailing wind comes off the left again as players play back to the clubhouse, and the 22 yard wide fairway slopes slightly left to right as well.  A controlled right to left shot off the tee to hold the fairway will give players an opportunity to score, but a player who lets the wind push their ball into the right rough will have a difficult time reaching the green on their second shot.  A large tree guards the right side of the green, and players in the right rough will likely not have the opportunity to hit over the tree.  This means they’ll either have to lay up short and left of the greenside bunkers to a tiny strip of fairway, or trust that the wind off the left will keep their ball from flying into the left bunker.
Even with a short iron from the fairway, finding the green is no gimme.  Players will need to trust the wind that is difficult to feel from the low point of the hole where a good tee shot will finish.  Players will be wise to observe the flags on top of the hill on the left by the clubhouse and play their shot accordingly.  The green is narrow enough that players who don’t respect the prevailing wind and aim straight at it will likely find the right bunker that guards the green.  The green is surrounded by bunkers and thick rough so anyone that misses the green will do well to get their approach shot close to the hole."


Brian is a former assistant pro at Olympic and a very good player. There is a link to his blog about playing a number of the holes at Olympic on this thread:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69794.0.html

[Jason Thurman]

Thanks David. That strategy makes sense, of course.


From pics, it looks like there might be another option that I'd at least try a few times in my first few plays: pull a driver and hit it hard (my driver distance would fit right in at the Women's US Open). Try to hit the fairway, try to miss left if not, and take my chances hacking a wedge from the rough if I must as opposed to hoping that I A) hit the fairway with a long iron, and B) judge the wind and upslope and hit a good approach with all those variables.


If I were as good as an LPGA player, I might challenge myself to hit the fairway all four days with a long iron and remove the variable of the rough. But I've seen pics of Ben Hogan off the left side of this one, and if he could miss that landing area, then my 10 handicap ass sure as hell could. I might rather take my chances from 60 yards than from 120.


But will the fairway upslope hold a ball hit there? Is there just too much rough (and the greens too firm) to justify willingly reducing one's chance of hitting the fairway? Will anybody play the hole that way this week? What about for daily play, outside of this week?

[Tim Passalacqua]

Thanks David. That strategy makes sense, of course.


From pics, it looks like there might be another option that I'd at least try a few times in my first few plays: pull a driver and hit it hard (my driver distance would fit right in at the Women's US Open). Try to hit the fairway, try to miss left if not, and take my chances hacking a wedge from the rough if I must as opposed to hoping that I A) hit the fairway with a long iron, and B) judge the wind and upslope and hit a good approach with all those variables.


If I were as good as an LPGA player, I might challenge myself to hit the fairway all four days with a long iron and remove the variable of the rough. But I've seen pics of Ben Hogan off the left side of this one, and if he could miss that landing area, then my 10 handicap ass sure as hell could. I might rather take my chances from 60 yards than from 120.


But will the fairway upslope hold a ball hit there? Is there just too much rough (and the greens too firm) to justify willingly reducing one's chance of hitting the fairway? Will anybody play the hole that way this week? What about for daily play, outside of this week?

Jason,


Hitting driver could work, but you better pull a good lie if you’re in the rough.  I think the rough will be too thick this week to have that play work consistently.  I would take the 110 yard shot from the fairway all day.  During normal play, I still like the bottom of the fairway with a wedge.  It allows you to miss it a little bit off the tee and still be OK. A miss with a driver can get you into some trouble. I once told a buddy to hit his hybrid off the tee and he insisted on the driver. He hit a huge pull almost onto the tennis courts!  He has hit hybrid since!  There are definitely parts of the upslope that will hold the ball. I’m just not sure what areas will get too fast with the shortly mown grass and the firm U.S. Open fairways.

[Kalen Braley]

I guess some of us just think using thick, long, gnarly rough in massive amounts isn't a compelling way to add challenge to the golf course, even if its no doubt effective. Based on the comments in the other thread, sounds like the course has plenty of interest, character, and quirk to keep players engaged, and could use a few tucked pins or longer tees to keep scores in check if they must.

P.S.  Given the USGA's track record with saddistic setups, I'm half surprised they didn't move the effective fairway 10-15 yards to the right in this picture and force the tree to be more in play, even when in the short grass.

[Jason Thurman]

Thanks Tim. I didn't realize those shrubs left effectively bordered tennis courts, and after looking at an aerial, driver feels like it might need to be pretty damn accurate and lucky to make for a favorable play. Nevertheless, given 5 plays, I'd almost surely try it at least once! Pray for the tennis players.


Kalen, I think I get your point, although I'm not sure how important it is for a national championship to add its challenge in a "compelling way" or to "keep players engaged." I'm not sure that Olympic would be a great place to take the Kings Putter in these conditions, but I don't think it's inappropriate to test driving accuracy, course management, strength, and lie judgment with some stringent mowing heights and lines when hosting a US Open. And those are pretty easy things to change just temporarily on a course that also hosts a lot of member play. It sounds like the setup isn't nearly as penal for everyday play.

[Matt_Cohn]

Yeah, not much choice on 18. You hit whatever gets you to the flat part at the bottom of the fairway. No reason to hit more—the fairway is narrow enough as it is. And you don’t want to hit less, lest you finish on the downslope trying to play up to that green. There’s nothing good from the rough on either side; right you’re blocked by a tree, and left you’re on the side of a hill.


Driver is a nonstarter. 😂

[Garland Bayley]

Thoughts on this?
atb

Watching highlights on youtube, it looks like it is a driver wedge, birdie fest.

[Tim Leahy]

D. Kang hit driver in the left rough and got the ball to the hole because she was only 100 yds out, but anyone that pushes a layup club in the right rough has no chance at par.