[Tommy Williamsen]

Reverse camber, where the hole bends one way while the land leans the opposite direction, seems to be a good defense. I don’t see it used much on the newer courses I have played. But on some of the older courses it works well. It makes the player shape the shot. It is an awkward but subtle way to get inside the player’s head.

[Ira Fishman]

Old White 6 is a great version.


I am puzzled too that it is not used more often.


Ira

[Carl Rogers]

I have played at the Cascades 4 rounds.  Several greens have this characteristic, but my memory is that the second green is the best example.  Hole 4 also.
On my re-play list once the virus is over.



Doesn't Olympic have some holes like this?

[David Ober]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I find the opposite to be true as a great defense: Fairway is right to left, GREEN is also right to left.


Requires you to "hold off" your release to hit a straight shot (or even hit a cut off a ball above your feet lie) in order to not play a giant rope-hook that will bound off the green, which is also sloped right to left. Wish more architects would create these situations to challenge us. Honestly, though, with modern fairway mowing, most balls run down bit slopes and finish in a "flatish" area, regardless -- which is a whole separate problem.

[Tom_Doak]

Mr Dye taught me not to do that, when I was drawing the plan for PGA West. He was mostly concerned that players were prone to take the direct route to the green via another fairway, if you didn't have a strong natural hazard on the inside corner.


I always have room for exceptions, but I can't say I have built a lot of reverse camber holes.  And I haven't thought much about it, but I'm curious if there are many good modern examples?  Most non-minimalist designers are so accustomed to building up the outside of the dogleg to "define" the hole that I can't imagine there are many.

[Brad Steven]

Well Alison was good at it, I can attest to that.  Both 1 and 18 at Kirtland in Cleveland are reverse camber right to left doglegs.  Both have insides that are penal so you have to respect the dog leg and the off camber fairway clearly makes it harder to hit.  I have mixed feelings about it ... I don't know that it adds strategic value, just kinda makes the hole harder. 

[JimB]

The hole I first heard this description for was Olympic Lake #4. Turning left up the hill with the land sloping right.

To resist Mr. Dye's concern there is plenty of incentive to avoid way left on this example.

I have not spent a lot of time looking for other examples. It sounds like it is not popular in modern design. Is this because there are fewer sites that allow it to work or is it out of favor among current designers?

[Mike_Trenham]

I was thinking about this earlier this week, playing Locust Valley in Coopersburg PA, designed by the Gordons.  It’s 16th hole is a reachable par 5 with a reverse camber fairway, leans left turns right.


What came to me is that the hole needs to be WIDE and there needs to be a reward for staying on the inside of the dogleg, clearer path to the putting surface and/or a more level lie.  I also think this may be best on a reachable par 5 or short par 4.


What never works is when there are tree lining both sides, especially the outside of the turn. I’ve seen many like that and usually it’s because the adjacent holes are close by.

[Carl Rogers]

Sorry, I can't think of everything at once ....


Cascades No. 5, severe slope left, wraps around a steep hill right.

[Ally Mcintosh]

If natural (Woking 3, Carlow 5), it can work really well.


The dogleg has to be quite gentle or the landing zone on the backside of the camber needs to be very wide.


Some examples look really pleasing to the eye. I like them although I did design one out of the initial Engh routing at Carne: Huge reverse camber on a severe downhill dogleg to the left where the prevailing wind blew hard to the right. Would have been virtually impossible to keep the ball on the fairway.

[Thomas Dai]

A fine feature if not over-used or excessively extreme as per Ally's example.
Deliberately curving or shaping or working the ball into the slope of an adverse camber to keep the ball on the fairway used to be a part of a decent players course management and shot-making armoury. Alas not so much now with modern balls and clubs.
As to more modern design and construction I imagine the greater use of big machines and the ease of cut-n-fill and stripping surfaces back and then re-grading have had an influence but others will know better than more on this aspect.

atb

[Sean_A]

Burnham is in the process of altering the reverse camber 12th. All they needed to do was widen the fairway... would have been a damn sight cheaper. The good thing to come from the work is a great temporary par 3 which I hope is retained.

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

If natural (Woking 3, Carlow 5), it can work really well.


The dogleg has to be quite gentle or the landing zone on the backside of the camber needs to be very wide.


Some examples look really pleasing to the eye. I like them although I did design one out of the initial Engh routing at Carne: Huge reverse camber on a severe downhill dogleg to the left where the prevailing wind blew hard to the right. Would have been virtually impossible to keep the ball on the fairway.

Woking 3 is a wonderful hole. I was so eager to play number 4 that it was eye opening to see how good the first three holes are.


Ira

[JESII]

14 at Augusta seems to be the most high profile, but I wonder if there is a real advantage to holding a drive up the left side.


The first at Hidden Creek does this pretty well. There is a distinct reward for holding the ball in the left side of the fairway while the terrain is trying to take it right...but over-cook it left and you're in the worst danger.


Huntingdon Valley has a couple, with #16 being a little too severe in my opinion...at least with today's firmness and fairway height. When the course is really playing well, it's near impossible to keep the ball in the fairway, although the low side first cut of rough is a good place to play the hole from.


Gulph Mills #10 is a victim of internal OB surrounding the driving range although the hole still works pretty well thanks to one of the coolest greens you'll see. Would be improved with a greatly expanded fairway out in the right bailout area.


#13 at Gulph Mills is a more subtle version of this (not really much of a dogleg) which rewards the learned advantage of approaching from the left side of the fairway as opposed to the instinctive/shorter right side.

[Tim Martin]

12 at Plymouth CC is a good example as well and highlights the use of angles.

[Jim Sherma]

Mike - Locust Valley is a treat of a course and will be missed once it closes this year, which has been threatened for past 15 years it seems. 16 is an interesting hole with very good risk reward trade offs on the drive. If you can get around/over the corner and hold the ball on the slope the green is easily within reach. Either getting on or very close is a huge advantage given the difficulty in the green.


The 16th green is worthy of a call out and some study. The short right bunker impacts the use of the natural slope to run the ball onto the green. The greatness of the green is in the back left and back right pin placements. There is the high ridge of the green separating the back and front portions and then another spine separating the back right and left. This leaves two areas that slope away from the golfer and make for some very interesting approaches, chips and putts. Wonderful green at the end of a tricky short par 5. This is also the centerpiece of the 15-17 stretch which in my opinion is one of the better three hole stretches in the Lehigh Valley area.


The 15th also makes great use of the same reverse camber but with less extreme slope. Being a longer par 4 holding the drive up on the inside of the dogleg makes for a much easier second. There is also a little diagonal ridge that always seems to enhance the natural left to right tilt of 15's fairway helping to move weaker drives towards the right tree line.


 

I was thinking about this earlier this week, playing Locust Valley in Coopersburg PA, designed by the Gordons.  It’s 16th hole is a reachable par 5 with a reverse camber fairway, leans left turns right.


What came to me is that the hole needs to be WIDE and there needs to be a reward for staying on the inside of the dogleg, clearer path to the putting surface and/or a more level lie.  I also think this may be best on a reachable par 5 or short par 4.


What never works is when there are tree lining both sides, especially the outside of the turn. I’ve seen many like that and usually it’s because the adjacent holes are close by.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't care for them, but then again, I am one of those old fashion SOB gca's who feel the golf course ought to be receptive to average to good shots.


That said, I have had a lot of fun playing Olympic, where nearly every tee shot has to be just inside the high tree line/fw edge, or Mid Ocean (I played when it was really dry, and saw why so many fw were lined by save bunkers on the low side, so CBM must have known how they would play, probably made better over the years with irrigation).


I have been routing courses where the natural route from tee to green is straight, but that requires going over or cutting a big hill in the LZ down.  Rather than do that, many gca elect to give the hole a slight dogleg to reduce earthmoving, but in moving the LZ down the slope, it naturally has a reverse slope LZ as a tradeoff for not going over the hill.  I believe most gca's who design such a slope probably don't think about how it really would play or don't understand the physics involved.


So the question is, if you do know, should you design a hole that hitting a good shot cannot stay on the fw?  I have designed a few where the the strategy is to hit the high side, but, softening the reverse slope at least enough to where an decent shot can stay on the fw.  Some gca's, realizing that is a fine line, with irrigation, future turf conditions, etc., beyond their control, and avoid them altogether, no matter how much grading it takes.

These days, under typical irrigation, the cross slope of a fw has to be under 10%, and on the slice side, especially if the tee shot is also downhill, under 5%, or the ball bounds off the fw.  (When a ball lands in an uphill LZ, cross slope can be higher because the upslope kills the momentum and reduces the roll)

[JESII]

Jeff,


Isn't the best thing for that slicer to be in light rough on the low side of the hole?

[Brent Carlson]

Oakland Hills South #18 is a dogleg right uphill par 4 where the reverse camber is always mentioned.  The landing area has quirky bounces and is very narrow.  A lot of people say this reverse camber cost Tom Lehman the '96 US Open. 


See below:


https://youtu.be/dGx-Yx1vC5g?t=5274


I think we will see a much different landing zone when Gil is done with it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,


Isn't the best thing for that slicer to be in light rough on the low side of the hole?

That's a crossover question for the playability thread, but yes, many high handicappers prefer a bit of cushion under their ball.  Mowing height is one of those things the gca cannot control, as I mentioned above, but I always recommend rough just high enough to provide a contrast to the fw, no higher, for every day play. 


Again, I know I'm an old coot who hasn't converted over to the current fad of 90 acres of fw cut.   That observation, however, in conjunction with the 2X  + cost of maintaining fw over light rough suggests to me that the "all one cut" era will end soon.


It still begs the question of whether to design that way on purpose, guessing at what the average golfer might do.  Hey, if they want to go all Ben Hogan and purposely hit in the rough, more power to them. (When I hit the rough off the tee, "Better angle from here!" is my story and I stick to it)  But, should I all but guarantee the slice finds the right rough?


Slightly OT, but we renovated a muni course a few years back, and at grand opening, their biz consultant went off on the mayor for the height of cut being too high in the fw, and as a result, too high in the rough, not realizing that the course was rushed open and keeping cuts a bit high is a good defense measure for young turf.  That was the moment he became their ex business consultant.


 

[Peter Pallotta]

It seems to me that the reverse camber is one of the best and surest ways to 'separate' the good player from the average one and the excellent golfer from the merely very good. Maybe architects don't want to create so obvious a separation, at least not very often -- but if they do, a reverse camber seems a less severe and more forgiving and less card/score-wrecking approach than, say, a 230 yard Par 3 over water.

[Tommy Williamsen]

If memory serves me well Crystal Downs has a couple reverse cambers in the middle of the front nine. 4&5?

[Jeff_Brauer]

It seems to me that the reverse camber is one of the best and surest ways to 'separate' the good player from the average one and the excellent golfer from the merely very good. Maybe architects don't want to create so obvious a separation, at least not very often -- but if they do, a reverse camber seems a less severe and more forgiving and less card/score-wrecking approach than, say, a 230 yard Par 3 over water.

And, oddly enough, the most vociferous complaints about such things are always from good golfers.  Average ones either don't recognize (unless its really bad) how the slope affects them, and the better ones aren't really concerned with separation, they believe their shot should be rewarded, or at least not penalized no matter what.  Part of that is that they are probably competing against similarly skilled players or playing with the A-D players in a scramble, etc.


Architecturally, as someone has mentioned, I just try to be aware and a reverse cross slope fairway just needs more width, sort of like I would give a hole with a lateral pond a bit more width than the 30-36 yards normally required to hit the fw.  In strategic architecture, you want to give an advantage to one shot or another.  While each shot might demand a bit more or less from a player to execute, most players are against any target (fw or green) where only luck was success.

[MClutterbuck]

Was the old 7th at Dornoch sligtly like this? I realize the dogleg is hardly present, but the second shot has a slight different angle further to the left. And the slope clearly ejected you right...

[Mike_Trenham]

#7 Dismal River White is an example of a longer reverse camber par 4 that works pretty well and rewards those that can navigate it past the bunker on the left inside of the dogleg.

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