Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?

[Kalen Braley]

I think Mark really nails it in post #36.

With your eyes delighting in the visual feast, with so much to look at and take in, and otherwise being caught up in the amazement of the location/moment, its probably a good thing you don't have to do a lot of figuring on what the green is doing.  I recall it being mostly flat and raised in the back.

P.S.  The one thing that's easy to miss from the tee is a tugged shot to the left really brings the other beach in play. Its very much a hidden danger as your eyes are distracted with everything else.

P.P.S.  John Mayhugh was in our group that day and he hit a beautiful high shot that landed like a butterfly.  Had a very real chance at bird and just missed.

[Ronald Montesano]

I actually love the look from beneath the replacement cypress tree, in the fairway left. If I had no inkling of the hole's identity, from that picture alone, I would say "what a lovely pitch to a par four." The green sets up beautifully from that angle.

Another post put these forward. Included are my concerns.

1. It has multiple options for playing the hole, which has been mentioned in this thread a few times

Two is multiple, so yes, it has multiple options.
2. It provides variety from any of the other par 3's

it does at that. does variety indicate greatness?
[/color]3. It's 60y longer than 7, the next longest par 3
indeed it is. do measurements indicate greatness?

[/color]4. The water is more in play than any previous hole

certainly it is. is it more in play than the following hole? does water being in play indicate greatness?[/size]
[/color]5. A near polar opposite shot is required from the short 15th

agreed. it might be the most diverse set of consecutive short holes in the world.[/size]
[/color]6. While the green is likely the least contoured, it is also the largest on the course (I think) and provides a catchers mitt for a driver/3w/hybrid approach.


for the 4th time, does any of this indicate greatness?

I believe that we are granting this hole greatness because of its setting alone. It has a double-hazard carry (over the water on two occasions) three if you count the front-left bunker. It has a decent green, but nothing extraordinary. It has bunkers in the back that, some would argue, are ornamental. Its chipping areas are non-existent. That setting, however, mitigates all the other elements.

I do believe that it is a great hole, 100% due to its setting. A friend once told me of the Toastmasters Club, of which he was a member. Each would give a speech, once a month, on a topic 100% outside of his/her comfort zone. She/He would then be evaluated/scalded by the other members, with the goal being to hone one's ability to speak on diverse topics with aplomb and accuracy.


It is valuable to question that which we accept without thought as great. Thank you for allowing me to do this.

[Ira Fishman]

We have a Toastmasters at the NFLPA because it is a great way for people to improve presentation skills. However, regarding CPC 16, your perspective is too narrow. No one has said that the setting does not matter. The weight of the comments is that Marion Hollins understood that the setting could maximize the greatness of the setting as a golf hole. It is a mistake to not put full value on where 16 comes in the round and how it fits into the overall narrative of CPC.


Ira

[Pete Lavallee]

The tee shot at 16 on Cypress Point is without question THE most thrilling shot I’ve played in 45 years of playing golf; nothing comes close! The beauty of that cove can never be replicated by a pond or lake. The chance to conquer it with a full blown driver is THE most satisfying feeling a golfer can experience. The green is indeed mundane; perhaps a concession to the probability of wind whipping through. The fact that it plays as a heroic par 3.5 or a cool short par 4 makes it even better. I’ve had hole in ones and eagles, shot 70 twice but making that carry twice (it was foggy and we couldn’t tell if the balls landed on the green so our caddies suggested we hit another shot) was the pinnacle of my golfing career. I did 2 putt for par. Thanks to Sir Bob for making my wildest golfing dream come true!

[Mark Saltzman]

A similar question was asked nearly a decade ago.. https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51257.0.html

[Tal Oz]

Mark thank you for bringing up your old thread. Carson's reply #8 and Jim's comment get to the essence of why 16 is great, pasted below.

Mark,

 Does a hole have to be strategic to be great? Is there anything wrong with the architect dictating the exact, heroic shot you need to hit every now and then, especially on par 3?

 I'd call it great for all the reasons you mentioned. It is hard to discount the visual as it is so stunningly beautiful that it doesn't look real. It's hard to discount the ocean when it would've been an epic failure had they not built that golf hole there. I also really like where it comes in the round and the fact that it is in your head over the course of the round. For many, it is a once in a lifetime experience and the last thing you want to do is be haunted til the end of your days by blowing it into the Pacific. Unfortunately, I speak from personal experience.

I have to agree with you here.  If you have a good round going, nothing would make a par 3 more intimidating than making it a 220 yard forced carry over water.  However, you also have the option of laying up over to the left.  Several options exist...also several outcomes.

1 - your guts are churning, you go for it, blow it in the ocean and blow your round.  You risked it, and did not pull it off.  Forever, you tell your friends how you blew your round at Cypress on #16.
2 - your guts are churning, you decide to lay up, you par the hole, but then (like Tim) you lament that you did not go for it for the rest of your life.
3 - your guts are churning, you go for it anyway, pull it off and remember for the rest of your life how you made the shot by risking it all.

All three scenarios include causing you to be nervous, causing you to actually make a strategic decision, and lastly, you remember that decision for the rest of your life.  In my book, that is a great hole!

I, for one, can still see my approach to #16 in the air as if it were yesterday.  It has been 15 years since that day.

[Thomas Dai]

Does the hole/green and others nearby for that matter suffer from sea-spray and salting effects and if so is the grass okay with it or is it dealt with in some other manner? Also is there much wind blowing sand out of the bunkers?
atb

[Ronald Montesano]

Mark, what course did you slam in your introduction of self? That Potts guy was the douche. How histrionic of him (unless there was a back story.)


Thanks for that. I guess great Niagara Frontier minds think alike, if a decade apart.

[Eric Smith]

The Isthmus of Moriarty is a feature which should be replicated on every golf course.
F.

An enthusiastic +1


4-dimensional strategy is the heart of golf architecture.

[Lou_Duran]

If the 16th was marked as recommended by the USGA- it is played as the beach, rocks, ocean, etc. are part of the course- it would take much of the severely punitive/heroic nature out of the hole, provide additional options and strategies, and maybe make the hole and round more fun.  I think it would improve the quality of the hole, though it may kill the post round commiseration.


Modern ball and equipment technology has further bifurcated the hole.  I am not sure I can hit a driver today in a direct line to the hole into a normal wind.  My son and numerous members at my home club could easily reach it with a 3 or 4 iron.  The setting and the vibe of the club make it a fantastic hole.  It also stands out because the other 17 holes are mostly shortish and do not challenge length unless there is a fierce wind from the sea (11-14).     

[Jason Thurman]

1. It has multiple options for playing the hole, which has been mentioned in this thread a few times

Two is multiple, so yes, it has multiple options.

How much does quantity of options matter? I would opine that it doesn't matter very much at all, and that what instead matters is the weight of the decision they create. And I can't think of a hole where the decision is heavier.

Option A: The most alluring shot in golf. Literally, the GOAT. Make a good swing, and you'll remember it for the rest of your life. But it's REALLY hard. You have to carry it over 200 yards of windy Pacific Ocean cove.

Option B: The conservative, smart play.

It's a weighty choice for your scorecard. Because Option A isn't the WRONG play - it's also the play that best unlocks the opportunity for a par, or even a birdie. And because of where the hole falls in the round, it's a hole where the strategy a given player takes can change depending on what's happening in his game. The greatest holes really make you think and weigh odds and consider possible outcomes. They get bonus points for falling at a point in the round where the outcome of competition can frequently be traced back to the decision made.

Admittedly, the decision becomes slightly less interesting in a more mundane setting. Throw the same exact hole on the rim of a pond in Kentucky, and you're no longer looking at the most alluring shot in golf for Option A. Then again, I remember my first 200 yd-over-water par 3 GIR. It was at Longview Golf Club, a Doak 2 near Georgetown. If that hole had the scale, agronomy, greensite, bunkering, and options of 16 Cypress, it would be the most talked-about hole in the state.

(It has none of that. It has some cattails and a lot of frogs and a really mushy green, and you don't even have to carry all the way to the front of the green. You can chunk your tee shot and still carry the water sometimes. But it's still SO awesome when you carry all that swamp and hear the damp thud of your ball on the green.)

Epilogue

I also think the "bifurcation" Lou references regarding the hole is part of what makes it great. I'm watching a few good playing partners age as golfers, and I'm starting to feel the early signs that I'll join them someday. Holes like this one mark the passage of time. Today, I'd love to take a crack at that green. Someday, I hope I would get nearly the same thrill from carrying it up to the fairway. There are plenty of holes that play about the same for me and for somebody who hits it 100 yards shorter than I do - holes where we're just hitting straight shots down the fairway to a green. This one plays very differently for me vs. that somebody. The challenge of gauging and accepting our abilities even as they evolve is timeless. It's not even golf at its best, it's LIFE at its best.

And rarely do we get to pursue that challenge in such an amazing setting. #CakeFrosting

[Ben Sims]

Is setting enough to make this hole great? Was Marion Hollins' womansplaining to Al, enough to make it great? I've not played it, not walked it, not photographed it, so I know nothing of the shot to the lay-up area, the space around the putting surface, the contours of the green.

This thread has predictably—though I’m not lamenting it—morphed into everyone recounting their one or two shots at this great hole. I’ve also had one shot at it, but I’d like to comment on Ronald’s OP.


To answer the first question, yes, it is. I have taken loads of photos on golf courses. I can only remember taking one or two videos. I stood on the tee at CP #16 and immediately realized that a photo wasn’t enough to capture the technicolor moment that I was existing in in that moment. So yeah, I’d say that setting alone can make a hole great.


What makes CP #16 so different, however, is what it asks of the player. It actually provides a strategic conundrum for not just first time players, but someone playing it the 100th time. Name another par three in the world that has a setting equal to CP #16 that also has that late-in-the-match decision to make.


What’s even more interesting to me is that the layup isn’t the cushy option that some assume from behind their keyboard. The carry is 110yds minimum (from the tee that gets the most play). The lone tree out there serves as a bit of an aiming point at 140-150yds, but there isn’t acres to the right of it. And then there’s the shape of that end of the 17th fairway. The ground falls away after the tree from that angle and the first time player has a hard time reconciling just how much more short grass is behind what they can see. To boot, the best angle into the green for a layup comes from a 160yd+ tee shot, anything shorter (or right side of the layup area) means you’ll be carrying sand or water into the green for your next shot. And after many players have bombed one into the ocean, that mid-iron is not an easy swing to make.

[Kevin Pallier]

This is very pertinent to the recent thread on back bunkers.


Mackenzie clearly designed those bunkers for no other reason than aesthetic impact. I can't imagine them ever actually being in play, but they complete the picture of possibly the most photographed hole in world golf.


Argue all you like about whether MacKenzie or Raynor was responsible for routing Cypress Point. There's no way Raynor would have put those bunkers in.


The hole would have been a much lesser one as a result, despite the fabulous setting.

Duncan

I can assure you those back bunkers are in play and not just for aesthestics. I saw someone hit a 3wood into one despite his caddy saying he couldn't reach it. 

They also provide good reference points with the wind.

[Tom_Doak]

Question:


Is there anyone that has played there that doesn't think the sixteenth at Cypress Point is a great hole?

[Mark_Fine]

Great question Tom.  The answer might be the first time on GCA we have had unanimous consent on something     

[Jeff Schley]

Great question Tom.  The answer might be the first time on GCA we have had unanimous consent on something 

Yeah how about that.... however we can't leave well enough alone as RoMo wants us to discount the setting to try perhaps to get some to say it isn't a great hole.

[Thomas Dai]

From afar it would seem to be a delightfully wicked test of temptation, ego, vanity and challenge but with options?
atb

[Tom_Doak]

From afar it would seem to be a delightfully wicked test of temptation, ego, vanity and challenge but with options?
atb

Very well put.  By that metric, it is one of the only holes on earth that if you pull off the shot, you are going to tell people about it for the rest of your life . . . and they will actually listen! 😉

[JC Jones]

Question:


Is there anyone that has played there that doesn't think the sixteenth at Cypress Point is a great hole?

The 9th at Yale is a better Biarritz.

[Peter Flory]

Very well put.  By that metric, it is one of the only holes on earth that if you pull off the shot, you are going to tell people about it for the rest of your life . . . and they will actually listen! 😉

It's funny that you should say that.  I was playing in a tournament this morning and the starter told a story about his brother playing the hole and we all listened.

Hit brother aced the 15th and then birdied the 16th.  The club researched it and they concluded that he was the only amateur to ever do that there.  I asked him if that means that a pro did it and he did not know.

Can you imagine that day as a guest?  You birdie 16 and it isn't the highlight of your round. 

[Ira Fishman]

Very well put.  By that metric, it is one of the only holes on earth that if you pull off the shot, you are going to tell people about it for the rest of your life . . . and they will actually listen! 😉

It's funny that you should say that.  I was playing in a tournament this morning and the starter told a story about his brother playing the hole and we all listened.

Hit brother aced the 15th and then birdied the 16th.  The club researched it and they concluded that he was the only amateur to ever do that there.  I asked him if that means that a pro did it and he did not know.

Can you imagine that day as a guest?  You birdie 16 and it isn't the highlight of your round.

Not to be the skeptic, but starters are known to tell tall tales. Which they first heard from caddies.


Ira

[Mark Fedeli]

Question:


Is there anyone that has played there that doesn't think the sixteenth at Cypress Point is a great hole?

Pursuant to the discussion about the back bunkers, I might think it were a better hole if there was more fairway on the hill behind the green, so you could miss long in places and watch the ball roll back down to the green (or into whatever remained of the bunkering). That possibility speaks to me more than the execution of the perfect long shot. But that might be because I have to play so much of my golf on courses where there aren't many exciting ground options.