[Nigel Islam]

.

[Tom_Doak]

Doesn't MacDonald allude to turning over all his overseas course notes to Raynor at some point after National? I can't recall if that is in Scotland's Gift?

Yes, but even if he did, they would be hard to use if you weren't familiar with the holes in question.  I know what my own notes about famous holes in the UK were like from my own trip, and you would be hard pressed to take them and build a great golf hole.


I've also heard rumors that those notes [whatever they were] are in private hands now, and are not held by Raynor's descendants but by some long-standing friends of C.B.  So his mention of leaving Raynor his notes may have not been the whole story.  Don't forget, Raynor died 20 years before Macdonald did. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,


Thanks for your response. I agree that the yardages are all over the place throughout the 20's.  It makes me wonder if the 1st, 2nd, 17th and 18th of No. 3 were built earlier and incorporated into the nine hole course before they ever built No. 3?


You can throw this story into the mix as well.
1923 publication titled White Sulphur Springs-A Brief History by Quintard Taylor.



Bret

Bret:

It would make sense that CBM and Raynor were responsible for the version of the 9 hole course that existed right after the Old White was built (the one comprised of the best holes of the original 18 hole course). 

Perhaps they worked on it twice, perhaps only once either around 1914 or around 1922, or perhaps they never touched it at all.

Sven

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

I find that when we discuss the templates, the focus is often on how CBM and/or Raynor replicated the features of the inspirations, as opposed to how CBM and Raynor created holes that asked the golfer to hit a variety of different types of shots.  Just think about what MacDonald was saying when he called the short par 4 12th at Biarritz a poor hole, but walked away with the concept for a par 3.

It is the variety of experiences throughout a round that stand out to me in their designs.  The templates certainly serve as a guideline to help with this, but it is how they placed those holes on every different piece of land, and then how they worked the gaps between the obvious spots that shows their real genius.

Perhaps with respect to Raynor, Shoreacres serves as the best example of what I'm trying to describe above (and probably a good start for looking at Raynor originals).  The stretch from 10 to 15 is as good as it gets for me out there.  I'd call 10 and 14 pretty "pure" applications of the template model, but the rest stand out as inspired adaptations, using what the terrain gave him.  And those four holes (11, 12, 13 and 15) are some of my favorites on the course.  My first play there I remember the sense of awe that arose on the first pass through that stretch.  Not only for how he was able to use the natural features, but for the judgment each shot on those holes demanded, without any repetition of what was being asked of me. 

With that being said, I really have no idea what they did at the Greenbrier No. 3 course.  We've probably lost that story to time.  But I do feel that they could have used many of the same concepts, on different land, with perhaps a few "gap" holes thrown in and created a course that would have felt different than what had been done at the Old White.  This course is really a prime example of how much we don't know about their working relationship.  At this point was CBM more of just a name, leaving most of the work to Raynor.  Of after Raynor had spent months on property mapping and planning, did he then run everything by MacDonald?  Hopefully, this thread can shine a bit of light on those questions.

12 at Shoreacres is, of course, a drop-shot version of the Short hole, and I'm pretty sure 15 is an adaptation of one of the Country Life runner-up holes -- not coincidentally, built very soon after Lido, I guess.  The 11th is a terrific hole with no antecedents I know of . . . a classic example of having to get from here to there.  I think the original 14th at Camargo was another version of that hole.

[Sven Nilsen]

12 at Shoreacres is, of course, a drop-shot version of the Short hole,

Have you seen another one of his like this one?  Did CBM ever design one like this (which I consider vastly different from the short at Sleepy)?

and I'm pretty sure 15 is an adaptation of one of the Country Life runner-up holes -- not coincidentally, built very soon after Lido, I guess.

Not sure if I agree with you here.  Curious which contest entry you are thinking of.  I've looked at all the CL drawings, nothing seems that similar.  But I'm glad you used the word "adaptation" as it was part of my point.

 The 11th is a terrific hole with no antecedents I know of . . . a classic example of having to get from here to there.  I think the original 14th at Camargo was another version of that hole.

Agreed on the 11th.  Your thoughts on 13?

[Nigel Islam]

.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony Pioppi knows the story better than me, but the 12th at Shoreacres was not part of Raynor's original plans. The members wanted the hole there. I think it might have originally been routed out to the west on the original plans.

I have been working there for +/- 25 years and have never heard that story.  I hope Anthony comes in to discuss it.


I could see how it would be a possibility.  I would have been very skeptical of building anything down in those ravines at first sight.  It would have been easy to route #12 across the ravine to the high ground on the right [if they owned that ground], and then have the tee shot on 13 playing from high to high for a longer hole.  The tee shot on 13 has always struck me as something that wasn't part of the original plan, but they had to make do.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

That is absolutely true. On the plans the club has the original 12th green was where the 13th tee is now, meaning the 13th tee was moved up and the hole shorter that the existing one.


A March 3, 1919 letter from Stanley Field, the man behind the creation of Shoreacres, to Frank Hibbard talks about needing to buy a small notch of land to create the drop-shot par-3. The land was purchased and the hole built by Raynor.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

The 1917 map was drawn by a civil engineer from the Shoreacres area. There is a line and small circle indicating where the 12th hole would be located if the land was purchased. That transaction did not happen until 1919 at the earliest.


The drawing also shows and alternate green for the seventh hole, which would have been located on a floor of a ravine that is now filled with water.

[Sven Nilsen]

That is absolutely true. On the plans the club has the original 12th green was where the 13th tee is now, meaning the 13th tee was moved up and the hole shorter that the existing one.


A March 3, 1919 letter from Stanley Field, the man behind the creation of Shoreacres, to Frank Hibbard talks about needing to buy a small notch of land to create the drop-shot par-3. The land was purchased and the hole built by Raynor.

So what makes us think Raynor wasn’t behind the idea to purchase the additional land?

[William_G]

Sven


Thank you for such a great topic and all your work to get it done.


Your follow up work and insight is first class.


You easily get an A+ for your efforts as well as the defense apparently of your work in your spare time.


Bravo.


Cheers

[MCirba]

Sven


Thank you for such a great topic and all your work to get it done.


Your follow up work and insight is first class.


You easily get an A+ for your efforts as well as the defense apparently of your work in your spare time.


Bravo.


Cheers

Well said.


Thanks, Sven.

[Sven Nilsen]

1923

Hotchkiss School Golf Course (Lakeville, CT)

1934 Aerial -



Routing Map -




Yale University Golf Course (New Haven, CT)

Whether it was to be two or three total courses, the original idea for Yale was to build more than one course.

March 1923 Golf Illustrated -



Jan. 16, 1924 Evening Post -



April 11, 1924 Tonawanda Evening News -





Feb. 13, 1925 Bridgeport Telegram -



Aug. 10, 1925 Star-Gazette -



Aug. 23, 1925 Evening Star -



Nov. 1925 Golf Illustrated -









July 1926 Golf Illustrated -



Plan -



Oblique Aerial -



Wide Aerial -



1934 Aerial -




Coral Keys Club (Englewood, FL)

Raynor designed 27 holes that were never built.  These holes could have been played as two different 18 hole courses.

Olmsted Plans -










Dedham Country & Polo Club (Dedham, MA)

Raynor took over work on the expansion of the Ross 9 hole course to 18 holes that was started by Herbert Fowler.  There is nothing contemporaneous that I have found discussing his involvement.  There are a couple of good old threads on the subject, including this one with some solid input from Michael Stachowicz who along with Anthony Pioppi discovered Raynor's involvement here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22435.msg409404.html#msg409404

1927 Scorecard -




Elkridge Country Club a/k/a Elkridge Hunt Club (Baltimore, MD)

Feb. 16, 1923 Baltimore Sun -



July 18, 1926 Baltimore Sun -



April 6, 1930 Baltimore Sun -







Jan. 18, 1931 Baltimore Sun -



1927 and 1929 Scorecards noting changes to the routing -






Statesville Country Club (Statesville, NC)

As noted by Nigel Islam, the 9 hole course built by Raynor was on a different site than the one discussed in the articles below.

March 1, 1923 Statesville Record and Landmark -




March 5, 1923 Statesville Record and Landmark -



May 7, 1923 Statesville Record and Landmark -



1938 Scorecard -




Crawford Country Club (Crawford, NY)

Supposedly Raynor revised an existing course here, although I've seen no record of his work or of the existence of the course.


Maidstone Club (West Course) (East Hampton, NY)

[To be updated]


Camargo Club (Cincinnati, OH)

See also the Feb. 1, 1927 Honolulu Advertiser article in Post #99 below noting Raynor visiting Cincinnati in late 1925 where a course was being built under his supervision.

June 11, 1923 Cincinnati Enquirer -









Oct. 29, 1924 Cincinnati Enquirer -



Nov. 16, 1924 Cincinnati Enquirer -











2004 Aerial -



1936 Scorecard -




Fox Chapel Golf Club (Pittsburgh, PA)

March 9, 1923 East Hampton Star -




April 24, 1923 Pittsburgh Daily Post -





2006 Aerial -


Country Club of Charleston (Charleston, SC)

Dec. 1925 Golf Illustrated -







May 12, 1933 The Sun -



1924 Olmsted Plan -



1937 Scorecard -

[Nigel Islam]

.

[Bret Lawrence]

Including two photos of the 10th hole-Greenbrier No. 3 course.
Both photographs are from Golfdom:
September 1932:


May 1944:

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


Here are some Metairie articles. David Marchand, the professional from Metairie found the first article which led Nigel to search The Times-Picayune for more articles.


The diagram below includes the northern section of the golf course, showing the original 15th -17th holes (the three holes on top of the map).  This part of the routing no longer exists.


The Times-Picayune., June 17, 1923:



The Times-Picayune., June 17, 1923

[Bret Lawrence]

This article mentions Joe Bartholomew and the first nine holes of Metairie completed.

The Times-Picayune., August 02, 1925:





Here is another article noting the formal opening of the Metairie golf course:
The Times-Picayune., November 08, 1925:



Adding a few more articles on Metairie.
This article explains changes made to the course.


The Times-Picayune., November 18, 1926:





This article describes members of the National Golf Links of America donating a trophy in memory of William Stauffer to the New Orleans Golf Association.

The Times-Picayune., April 22, 1926:

[Sven Nilsen]

I posted the first half of the article below earlier in the thread.  The second half paints a good picture of Raynor's activity at this point in his career, as well as the expansion of his work to new parts of the country.

Here are the courses completed by Raynor noted in the article:

Greenbrier
Sleepy Hollow
St. Louis
Piping Rock
Shoreacres
Chicago
Mountain Lake
Everglades
Mid Ocean
Riddles Bay
Ocean Links
Porto Rico
Lido

And here are the current projects underway (the article notes half a dozen but only the ones below are named):

Gibson Island
Creek
Brookville
A course in Port Washington as to which I am unsure of the identity

Jan. 14, 1923 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -

[Nigel Islam]

.

[Sven Nilsen]

A quick side-note on Yale, as the photos below are worthy of their own post.

[Photos borrowed from the link in this thread by Colin Sheehan with thanks also to Scott Ramsay: 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60785.0.html]

1st and 2nd -





Unknown Construction Worker -



1st -









2nd -



July 1929 Golf Illustrated -



3rd -









4th -



5th -







6th -



7th -





8th -





9th -



July 1929 Golf Illustrated -



10th -





13th -





14th -



15th -



18th -







July 1928 Golf Illustrated -



July 1929 Golf Illustrated -

[Tim Martin]

Sven-Those are terrific photos of Yale. You get a sense of how rugged that site was when the golf course was being built.

[Nigel Islam]

.

[Sven Nilsen]

1924

Monterey Peninsula Country Club (Dunes Course) (Pebble Beach, CA)

See also the Feb. 1, 1927 Honolulu Advertiser article in Post #99 below noting Raynor visiting Del Monte in late 1925 where a course was being built under his supervision.

Nov. 8, 1924 Woodland Daily Democrat -



Feb. 22, 1925 Los Angeles Times -



July 11, 1925 Los Angeles Times -



March 28, 1926 Los Angeles Times -



July 2, 1926 San Francisco Examiner -



Aug. 1926 Golf Illustrated -



1928 Scorecard -




Monterey Peninsula Country Club (Shore Course) (Pebble Beach, CA)

See the Nov. 8, 1924 article above as well as the July 11, 1925 article above noting Raynor would be completing the plans for the Shore course.

Feb. 26, 1927 San Francisco Examiner -






Del Monte Golf Club (Monterey, CA)

In addition to his work at MPCC, Raynor had been engaged by the Del Monte Corporation to improve the old hotel course as well as lay out a second new course.

March 1925 Golf Illustrated -



July 11, 1925 Los Angeles Times -




June 1925 Olmsted Plan -





Lake Wales Country Club a/k/a Lake Wales Municipal Golf Course (Lake Wales, FL)

Long credited as a Ross, this course was actually a Raynor.

Oct. 9, 1924 Tampa Tribune -



Jan. 28, 1925 Tampa Tribune -



Feb. 9, 1925 Tampa Tribune -




Feb. 25, 1925 Article -





May 6, 1925 -



Scorecard -




Edward S. Moore Estate Golf Course (Roslyn, NY)

Jan. 4, 1926 New York Sun -




Blue Mound Country Club (Milwaukee, WI)

See also the Feb. 1, 1927 Honolulu Advertiser article in Post #99 below noting Raynor visiting Milwaukee in late 1925 where a course was being built under his supervision.


1937 Aerial -




St. George's Country Club (Bermuda)

[To be updated]

[Sven Nilsen]

1925

Cypress Point Club (Pebble Beach, CA)

When Marion Hollins started plans for Cypress, she first turned to Raynor as her architect.  As the 1925 images below show, there were plans for a routing in place prior to Mackenzie ever arriving in the United States.  How much of Raynor's plans made it into the completed Mackenzie/Hunter course remains very much a mystery.

There are a few early drawings of the routing for Cypress that apparently predate Mackenzie's involvement.  They were briefly discussed here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66837.0.html

Nov. 1925 Fairway Magazine -



Dec. 1925 Golf Illustrated -



See also the Feb. 1, 1927 Honolulu Advertiser article in Post #99 below noting Raynor stopping in Del Monte to visit a course he had under construction.  This course was most likely the MPCC Dunes course, but as the article below notes the Cypress Point project was active at that time.

Jan. 4, 1926 New York Sun -





Cragin Park Golf Course (Palm Beach, FL)

A course planned for Paris Singer that never got built.

Aug. 21, 1925 Palm Beach Post -





Dec. 12, 1925 Palm Beach Post -



Dec. 20, 1925 Palm Beach Post -




North Palm Beach Municipal Golf Course a/k/a Palm Beach Winter Club (North Palm Beach, FL)

The history of the Winter Club (which would eventually become North Palm Beach's municipal golf course) is a bit confusing, as the name was first used at William Langford's course in Kelsey City.  This course was often referred to as the "New Everglades Course" and was a bit of a joint project between Singer and Kelsey.  The project quickly fell into decline, with the course being shortened to 9 holes for a while before being restored to its full 18 in the late 1930's. 

See also the Jan. 4, 1926 New York Sun article above.

Dec. 31, 1925 Palm Beach Post -



Feb. 15, 1926 Palm Beach Daily News -




Jan. 30, 1939 Tampa Bay Times -



1953 Aerial -



Aerial -



Scorecard -




Everglades Club Third Golf Course (North Palm Beach, FL)

In connection with the development of the Palm Beach Winter Club/New Everglades Course/North Palm Beach Municipal Golf Course 18 holes, there were plans for an additional 18 hole course to be located just to the North.

See the Dec. 31, 1925 Palm Beach Post article above.


Augusta Country Club (Lake Course) a/k/a Bon-Air Vanderbilt Hotel Golf Course (Augusta, GA)

See also the Jan. 4, 1926 New York Sun article above.

Jan. 14, 1926 The Republican-Journal -




April 1926 Canadian Golfer -




Lookout Mountain Golf Club a/k/a Fairyland Golf Club (Lookout Mountain, GA)

See also the Feb. 1, 1927 Honolulu Advertiser article in Post #99 below noting Raynor and Banks on site in the Fall of 1925.

March 21, 1928 Greenwood Commonwealth -



March 30, 1928 Evening Journal -



Raynor Plan -




Mid Pacific Country Club a/k/a Kailua Country Club (Honolulu, HI)

Dec. 2, 1925 Honolulu Star-Bulletin -



Dec. 9, 1925 Honolulu Star-Bulletin -





Jan. 10, 1926 Great Falls Tribune -



Feb. 12, 1926 Honolulu Star-Bulletin -



Jan. 23, 1927 Honolulu Star-Advertiser -











1938 Scorecard -




Waialae Country Club a/k/a Royal Hawaiian Hotel Country Club (Honolulu, HI)

Designed by Raynor in December of 1925, the course would be constructed after his death by Joseph Mayo under the supervision of Charles Banks.

See also the Feb. 1, 1927 Honolulu Advertiser article in Post #99 below.

Nov. 2, 1925 Oakland Tribune -



March 6, 1926 Honolulu Star-Bulletin -



July 17, 1926 Honolulu Star-Bulletin -





Jan. 31, 1927 Honolulu Star-Bulletin -



Feb. 1927 Golf Illustrated -





Feb. 21, 1927 San Francisco Examiner -



July 1927 Golf Illustrated -


Aerial -




Essex County Country Club (East Course) (West Orange, NJ)

[To be updated]

Feb. 1928 Golf Illustrated -













Essex Fells Country Club (Essex Fells, NJ)

[To be updated]


Rock Spring Country Club (West Orange, NJ)

Plans for the formulation of Rock Spring began in early 1925, with Willard Wilkinson creating a preliminary routing before the club sought out Raynor as architect.The Jan. 4, 1926 New York Sun article above notes Raynor was "building a circuit" for the club.  The March 12, 1926 Evening Post article in Post #99 below indicates Banks was to lay out the course.  If you look at the list of courses included in that article for which Banks was to continue Raynor's work, the implication is that "lay out" in this instance meant to apply Raynor's plans, not develop his own layout.  Banks did have to modify the plans, as the club had to purchase new ground for a couple of holes as part of the property was deemed unfit to work on. 

Banks wrote about his work at Rock Spring in the Feb. 1928 Golf Illustrated article posted above under the Essex County listing.

April 1925 Golf Illustrated.





1931 Scorecard -





Roselle Golf Club (Roselle, NJ)

[To be updated]


Deepdale Golf Club (Great Neck, NY)

Originally built as a private course for William K. Vanderbilt, plans to make it a private club were formulated shortly after it opened with Herbert Strong being brought in to make changes in 1928

See also the Jan. 4, 1926 New York Sun article above.

Sept. 12, 1925 Brooklyn Times Union -



Sept. 15, 1925 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -



May 1928 Golf Illustrated -



1940 Aerial -



1926 Scorecard -




Fishers Island Golf Club (Fishers Island, NY)

The two articles below notes plans for two courses at Fishers Island.  The course that was built was completed by Banks.

June 20, 1925 Evening Post -



June 28, 1925 New York Times -



April 1928 Golf Illustrated -



Dec. 1934 Golf Illustrated -



Map -



Modern Aerial -




Knollwood Country Club (Elmswood, NY)

When Knollwood decided to update their old 1894 course, they first went to Tillinghast, with Raynor eventually getting the work.  His plans would be modified by Banks who completed the project.

See also the Jan. 4, 1926 New York Sun article above.

July 1927 Golf Illustrated -











Nov. 1928 Golf Illustrated -









Oct. 1932 Golf Illustrated -




Southampton Golf Club (Southampton, NY)

In 1925 Southampton GC secured the land that would be the location of its new course.  Designed and laid out by Raynor, the work was completed by Banks after his death.  Raynor was given an honorary membership to the club.  In addition to the articles below, the 1925 Annual Guide noted the course was under construction with Raynor as Vice-President.

Sept. 3, 1925 Brooklyn Times Union -



Oct. 8, 1925 The County Review -



Oct. 26, 1925 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -



1939 Scorecard -




Yeamans Hall Country Club (Charleston, SC)

The idea for a course at Yeamans Hall originated in 1917 with plans to hire Donald Ross.  Raynor eventually secured the contract for the golf course which was part of a larger Olmsted development.

The 1924 Olmsted Plan below shows the layout for two separate 18 hole courses.  Only the "A" course was built.

March 1932 Golf Illustrated -





1924 Olmsted Plan -



1929 As Built Plan -



1927 Scorecard -

[Sven Nilsen]

As we know, after returning to the East Coast and arriving in Palm Beach around Jan. 14, 1926, Raynor passed away on Jan. 23.

Jan. 14, 1926 The County Review -



Jan. 25, 1926 Brooklyn Times Union -



Jan. 30, 1926 Brooklyn Times Union -



There are a number of courses that claim to be his last design.  It is hard to determine exactly which one holds claim to that description.  Waialae and Mid-Pacific are most likely the last two courses for which he created a layout, with Waialae seemingly being the last of his design work.  There were several designs that had been completed prior to his visit to Hawaii that would be constructed and/or laid out on the ground by Charles Banks.

March 12, 1926 Evening Post -



Feb. 1, 1927 Honolulu Advertiser -









Bret Lawrence sent on the following rather prophetic eulogy of Raynor that was printed in a 1926 edition of The Metropolitan Golfer -

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