Riviera - What Design Features Have Been Lost?

[Josh Tarble]

Saw a post on Twitter asking what features have been lost at Riviera?  I've never played, but it looks fantastic on TV.  I think from a visual standpoint it's one of the best courses on TV.  What are some of the small features and nuances that would return it closer to Thomas's original work?  And would they even make it a better course?

[jeffwarne]

a wooden driver and a balata ball might negate the need for its current defense-(greens where the ball rolls completely randomly as it loses speed on the greens)


Such great design but angles are virtually negated by the short distance they come in from

[Jeff Schley]

One aspect I don't think that was original was the kikuyu grass.  Thus that is a big change certainly as it is common now in So Cal, but back then I don't think so.  I personally hate it around greens.

[Pete Lavallee]

Certainly the greatest loss is the options originally available on the 8th hole. There were 3 distinct paths off the tee separated by the rugged barranca. You could lay up short on the left side but had a long shot with a decent angle. Going long down the left was hard to pull off but left a short shot from the perfect angle. If you couldn't make the carry for that option you could play to the right side but had a poorer angle with a shorter shot than short left. The great flood wiped this out and the Fazio inspired replacement leaves little strategic choice.

[Adam Lawrence]

Very interesting piece in Kingdom magazine about Riviera, which is in line to host the Olympic golf tournament in 2028. Mike Yamaki is quoted as saying he hopes that the barranca will be restored by then; I know he's been trying to make that happen for quite a few years. Such a wonderful place.


http://kingdom.golf/golf/olympic-level-the-riviera/

[PCCraig]

I know there are a lot of internet bloggers and golf channel talking heads that wish Riviera looked more like LACC, but I think the current iteration of Riviera looks incredible. I saw a few pictures of some expanded short grass around greens that is new this year and is probably a good addition. Otherwise, I don't understand the obsession of what was lost or what should be restored at Riviera.

[Matthew Essig]

Very interesting piece in Kingdom magazine about Riviera, which is in line to host the Olympic golf tournament in 2028. Mike Yamaki is quoted as saying he hopes that the barranca will be restored by then; I know he's been trying to make that happen for quite a few years. Such a wonderful place.


http://kingdom.golf/golf/olympic-level-the-riviera/

Other than 8, what holes would be influenced by the change. The barranca has such deep rough it already plays as a hazard to be avoided on 1, 7, 11, and 12. Would it make the approach to 13 more penal with a pull left?

[Sven Nilsen]

For reference purposes -

1927 -



1928 -



March 1928 Golf Illustrated -



Dec. 1928 Golf Illustrated -





Dec. 21, 1928 -



1929 -





Feb. 1929 Golf Illustrated -



1930 -



March 1930 Golf Illustrated -



Feb. 1932 Golf Illustrated -



Nov. 1934 Golf Illustrated -



Undated Photos -





Golf Architecture in America images -









1929 LA Open Program -

[Alex Miller]

Riv is looking wonderful so far this week, perhaps only inhibited by the length some of these guys hit the ball in providing a truly complete test to the pros. Even so a dry (too dry) winter has the course playing very firm and highlighting the importance of picking the right angles to approach from.


The 8th hole is beyond my scope and has been messed with so much it resembles some of the extreme plastic surgery that a few of the neighborhood residents know all too well. No doubt a restoration is still needed there. Looking at Sven's photos, there are more trees now and the bunkers have lost a few shapes, but much of what's there looks the same as what we see today.


While the kikuyu does take away some options, particularly on the redan 4th hole more than any other, it also provides some challenges that are part of what make Riv such a cool test (for us and the pros). The kikuyu there is presented about as good as can be, and I can attest that with enough study* can be a fun(!) part of unlocking a good round there.


*most of my kikuyu studies have occurred at LA munis and other tracks, just a couple rounds at Riv itself

[Tim Leahy]

No. 2 had a back tee that made it a par 5 that has been long grown over. No.5 has an elevated tee that is now in someones backyard above on the right of the current tee.

[Alex Miller]

No. 2 had a back tee that made it a par 5 that has been long grown over. No.5 has an elevated tee that is now in someones backyard above on the right of the current tee.

Re: No.5, you mean the one they're playing from today or one on top of the canyon?

[jeffwarne]

Rivierra looks wonderful to me on TV.


Restoring the original speed and slope on the greens might make them puttable.i.e. they are fast so every roll/break is visible on a trickling ball.
Not hard to keep scores high when every putt is wiggling randomly both directions the last 5 feet of every putt-and every last roll the ball seemingly falls into an abyss.
Exactly how many micro breaks/poa rolls can one read?
never seen so many missed short putts.


Every hole is approached with a SW(zzzzz,,,) yet scores are high
I miss 5 and 6 irons-and solid firm strokes with the correct borrow rewarded.


if 156 guys play of course some will make a couple putts......
but not the same guy tomorrow

[Joel_Stewart]

Very interesting piece in Kingdom magazine about Riviera, which is in line to host the Olympic golf tournament in 2028. Mike Yamaki is quoted as saying he hopes that the barranca will be restored by then; I know he's been trying to make that happen for quite a few years. Such a wonderful place.


http://kingdom.golf/golf/olympic-level-the-riviera/

By 2028? That seems like a ridiculous amount of time. 


I would just be happy if they took down the Eucalyptus trees on the left of 13 and restored the barranca cutting across the 1st hole.

[Mark Kiely]

Josh: Geoff Shackelford had a couple Instagram posts earlier this week with "then & now" comparisons. Most noteworthy to me was that apparently the 10th green was bunkerless originally.

[Matthew Essig]

Josh: Geoff Shackelford had a couple Instagram posts earlier this week with "then & now" comparisons. Most noteworthy to me was that apparently the 10th green was bunkerless originally.

Correct. It was said on the broadcast today the bunkers were put in for the 1929 LA Open.

[Jeff Schley]

I would be rather shocked if Riviera wasn't the course to host the Olympics as it has proven it can handle big tournaments and they are owned by a Japanese company.  LACC is hosting the US Open, but that took years for them to agree to host one, they were recruited unlike most courses vying for it. There really isn't any other championship layout that could handle it, unless they wanted to go to Sherwood, which I have heard is nice after the year renovation a couple years ago.

[Josh Tarble]

So after watching and reading through this, it seems like width and mowing lines seem to be the largest source of change.  Obviously some bunkering has changed, I'm of the opinion that I prefer the current style, maybe placement could be changed but think it's one of the most visually striking courses on TV. 


It also does seem like Riviera is becoming like Augusta in that they're making decisions based on there tournament vs. being a members course.  I don't know if that's the case, but just looking at it as an outsider, that does seem to be what's happening.

[Jim Nugent]

Bubba only hit 57% of fairways during the tournament.  Tony Finau, tied for second, hit under 45% for the week: on Sunday he hit 28.57%. 

Of course they both bomb the ball.  But Phil also hit under 45% for the week, was short off the tee (265.5 on Sunday, 278 overall), and finished tied for 6th.

This is not rare.  Quite often in the past, the winner at Riviera has hit 50% or less of all fairways.  Seems pretty clear you don't have to hit fairways there to score well or even win.  And that 's against many of the world's best players.  I'd love to hear some thoughts from people who know the course well, on why driving accuracy doesn't seem to matter much at Riviera. 

btw, Phil's stats the last round are fascinating.  He only averaged 265 off the tee; hit just 50% of all fairways; reached 50% of greens in regulation; and lost strokes against the field putting (-0.146).  His stats for the entire week were only marginally better, and in driving accuracy were actually worse. 

Yet he shot 68 the last day, 276 for 72 holes, tied for 6th and with six holes to go was just two strokes out of the lead.  The stats (or at least these stats) don't tell the whole story.  e.g. Phil twice holed out for birdie on the final nine.   

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Thanks for the pictures Sven. Seeing these makes me wonder why we haven't heard the drum beat for tree removal at Riviera. Amazed at how tree less it was back then.

[Eric LeFante]

Bubba only hit 57% of fairways during the tournament.  Tony Finau, tied for second, hit under 45% for the week: on Sunday he hit 28.57%. 

Of course they both bomb the ball.  But Phil also hit under 45% for the week, was short off the tee (265.5 on Sunday, 278 overall), and finished tied for 6th.

This is not rare.  Quite often in the past, the winner at Riviera has hit 50% or less of all fairways.  Seems pretty clear you don't have to hit fairways there to score well or even win.  And that 's against many of the world's best players.  I'd love to hear some thoughts from people who know the course well, on why driving accuracy doesn't seem to matter much at Riviera. 

btw, Phil's stats the last round are fascinating.  He only averaged 265 off the tee; hit just 50% of all fairways; reached 50% of greens in regulation; and lost strokes against the field putting (-0.146).  His stats for the entire week were only marginally better, and in driving accuracy were actually worse. 

Yet he shot 68 the last day, 276 for 72 holes, tied for 6th and with six holes to go was just two strokes out of the lead.  The stats (or at least these stats) don't tell the whole story.  e.g. Phil twice holed out for birdie on the final nine.   

It seems to me the fairway % stat has become less relevant over the past 20 years since distance has become such a big factor. One way tour courses have tried to fight the distance issue is by making the fairways narrower. When you consider how much further some guys are hitting it and combine that with narrower fairways it makes it that much harder to hit fairways. I wouldn’t know, but it seems awfully hard hitting a 30 yard wide fairway when the ball is traveling 320.


If you look at the fairway % leaders on tour you won’t find any of the top 10 players in the world.


One thing the strokes gained stats show is that all missed fairways are not equal. Missing a fairway by a few yards on the correct side off the tee is not much of a penalty anymore since guys have shorter clubs into greens. It seems like Rivera is a course where you need be on the correct side off the tee, even if you aren’t in the fairway.

[Kalen Braley]

While I love the sycamore trees at Riv, especially this time of year when they are leave-less...


I wonder about the non-indigenous eucalyptus.  Are they really are necessary given the tight-ish playing corridors?  And if so I get it, but are all of them necessary?  Seems like the nasty Kikuyu rough is enough penalty...


P.S.  Sven, thanks for those pics....awesome stuff!

[V. Kmetz]

Bubba only hit 57% of fairways during the tournament.  Tony Finau, tied for second, hit under 45% for the week: on Sunday he hit 28.57%. 

Of course they both bomb the ball.  But Phil also hit under 45% for the week, was short off the tee (265.5 on Sunday, 278 overall), and finished tied for 6th.

This is not rare.  Quite often in the past, the winner at Riviera has hit 50% or less of all fairways.  Seems pretty clear you don't have to hit fairways there to score well or even win.  And that 's against many of the world's best players.  I'd love to hear some thoughts from people who know the course well, on why driving accuracy doesn't seem to matter much at Riviera. 

btw, Phil's stats the last round are fascinating.  He only averaged 265 off the tee; hit just 50% of all fairways; reached 50% of greens in regulation; and lost strokes against the field putting (-0.146).  His stats for the entire week were only marginally better, and in driving accuracy were actually worse. 

Yet he shot 68 the last day, 276 for 72 holes, tied for 6th and with six holes to go was just two strokes out of the lead.  The stats (or at least these stats) don't tell the whole story.  e.g. Phil twice holed out for birdie on the final nine.   

It seems to me the fairway % stat has become less relevant over the past 20 years since distance has become such a big factor. One way tour courses have tried to fight the distance issue is by making the fairways narrower. When you consider how much further some guys are hitting it and combine that with narrower fairways it makes it that much harder to hit fairways. I wouldn’t know, but it seems awfully hard hitting a 30 yard wide fairway when the ball is traveling 320.


If you look at the fairway % leaders on tour you won’t find any of the top 10 players in the world.


One thing the strokes gained stats show is that all missed fairways are not equal. Missing a fairway by a few yards on the correct side off the tee is not much of a penalty anymore since guys have shorter clubs into greens. It seems like Rivera is a course where you need be on the correct side off the tee, even if you aren’t in the fairway.

I think it's looking at entire field averages (fairways, greens, strokes saved, etc) that's more revealing than the winner or a good scoring day.  For me, Bubba did two things different than everyone else...1). he made five par putts that others missed; and 2). he holed out the wedge on 14 (which I felt would go 8 ft+ by if not holed)...otherwise it seemed the contending field was having their ups and downs in equal measure.


cheers  vk

[Josh Tarble]

Bubba only hit 57% of fairways during the tournament.  Tony Finau, tied for second, hit under 45% for the week: on Sunday he hit 28.57%. 

Of course they both bomb the ball.  But Phil also hit under 45% for the week, was short off the tee (265.5 on Sunday, 278 overall), and finished tied for 6th.

This is not rare.  Quite often in the past, the winner at Riviera has hit 50% or less of all fairways.  Seems pretty clear you don't have to hit fairways there to score well or even win.  And that 's against many of the world's best players.  I'd love to hear some thoughts from people who know the course well, on why driving accuracy doesn't seem to matter much at Riviera. 

btw, Phil's stats the last round are fascinating.  He only averaged 265 off the tee; hit just 50% of all fairways; reached 50% of greens in regulation; and lost strokes against the field putting (-0.146).  His stats for the entire week were only marginally better, and in driving accuracy were actually worse. 

Yet he shot 68 the last day, 276 for 72 holes, tied for 6th and with six holes to go was just two strokes out of the lead.  The stats (or at least these stats) don't tell the whole story.  e.g. Phil twice holed out for birdie on the final nine.   

This is an interesting comment and have no idea if this is true...but it seems like this could be the exact argument for lost width.  I am guessing people like Phil and Bubba, while they are still missing shots, so technically losing strokes to the field are missing their shots in the proper places and best angles.


Also where Phil was missing, even though he was off the green, probably gave him better chances at making the next one than some places where other players were on the green.

[Mike Bodo]

The person who can address what has been lost at Riviera over the years and what's in store for the redesign is GCA's own Tom Doak. Jim Nanz mentioned on yesterday's broadcast that the course would be undergoing changes immediately following the tournament and that Tom Doak would be overseeing the redesign. I suspect things may not yet be 100% finalized, thus Tom may not be at liberty to speak on it, but once work is underway I would hope that he would be so kind to inform us of the changes the course will undergo under his stead.

[Ryan Taylor]

The person who can address what has been lost at Riviera over the years and what's in store for the redesign is GCA's own Tom Doak. Jim Nanz mentioned on yesterday's broadcast that the course would be undergoing changes immediately following the tournament and that Tom Doak would be overseeing the redesign. I suspect things may not yet be 100% finalized, thus Tom may not be at liberty to speak on it, but once work is underway I would hope that he would be so kind to inform us of the changes the course will undergo under his stead.

I think you're confused. Doak and team are currently restoring Bel-Air CC down the street.