Ohio Top 40 (December 2017)

[Brian Finn]

Following the lead of the Michigan contingent, a group of Ohio-based contributors (past & present) submitted their ratings for the best courses in Ohio.  In this golf-rich state, perhaps best known for the "Big 4" of Columbus, the Northeast proves to have the deepest bench of courses that appeal to gca enthusiasts.  You have to go to the opposite end of the state to find top-rated Camargo, but the list shows that you need not go far from any point in Ohio to find an architectural gem. 

          Notes: 
          a. Below list revised (December 12th) to include additional voters
          b. Original list (December 7th) saved in reply #36
          c.  Added:  Portage CC (#20), Sand Ridge (#36)
          d. Dropped:  Wedgewood, Miami Valley

1.  Camargo 8.76
2.  The Golf Club 8.25
3.  Brookside (Canton) 8.15
4.  Moraine 8.03
5.  Kirtland 7.96
6.  The Country Club 7.64
7.  Muirfield Village 7.59
8.  Inverness 7.34
9.  Canterbury 7.29
10. Scioto 7.19
11. Pepper Pike Club 7.14
12. Springfield 6.86
13. Double Eagle 6.80
14. NCR S 6.67
15. Fowlers Mill 6.55
16. Sleepy Hollow 6.48
17. Hyde Park 6.45
18. Elyria 6.43
19. Firestone S 6.40
20. Portage CC 6.27
21. OSU Scarlet 6.17
22. Brookside (Columbus) 6.16
23. Mayfield CC 6.13
24. Westbrook 6.10
25. Sugarbush 6.08
26. Sylvania CC 5.98
27. Urbana 5.98
28. Maketewah 5.98
29. Congress Lake 5.91
30. Denison (Granville) 5.88
31. Firestone N 5.81
32. Manakiki 5.79
33. Shaker Heights 5.79
34. Columbus CC 5.78
35. Pinnacle 5.76
36. Sand Ridge 5.73
37. Lakewood 5.72
38. Hickory Hills 5.70
39. Clovernook 5.68
40. Stonelick Hills 5.65

Thank you to the many contributors who participated in building out this list. We'll soon be sharing write-ups of many of the courses on the list, drafted by those that know and love them best. 

I look forward to hearing from the broader group concerning the (de)merits of the list.  Any courses you expected to see that aren't represented?  Any rankings unusually high or low, in your view?  Hopefully this list spurs some discussion, especially about courses that don't necessarily come up often on the site.

[noonan]

With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?


While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.

[Erik Mosley]

Can't help but notice the lack of public courses on the list - is that 6 of the top 40?  I count Fowlers Mill, Sugar Bush, Sleepy Hollow, Denison, Manakiki, and Stonelick.  Might have missed one or two, but it's a bit disappointing in a state that has some pretty good public golf options.  Does it speak to the high quality of the privates or the "good, but not good enough" quality of the publics?


The big surprise for me is Sugar Bush at 20.  Is that the Sugar Bush in Garrettsville? It's a nice track and has "hidden gem" written all over it, but Sugar Bush at 20 while The Quarry and Boulder Creek don't make the list is the biggest surprise to me. Can't find much written about the course here...wouldn't mind a little write up on it to see what I'm missing!

[Brian Finn]

I have to admit, I had never heard of Sugarbush prior to participating in this exercise.  I believe of the 70+ courses that received votes/rankings, it was the only one with which I was not familiar.

Concerning public courses, I was somewhat surprised to see so few make the top 40.  For what it is worth, 7 of the next 10 were public.

On that note, I was surprised by the low combined ranking of Longaberger(Virtues?).  I understand that dedicated walkers will downgrade it, but I still feel there is enough good golf there to put it comfortably in the top 40.  Of course, I guess that's why we do these lists - so we can talk about what we like (or don't) about each course.

Overnight, several additional people submitted their lists.  Anyone else who would like to contribute, please email me, and I will update the numbers some time soon.  With a somewhat limited sample size, every contributor genuinely adds to the strength of the numbers.

[Joe Hellrung]

Interesting that a sleepy little town like Dayton can muster two of the top twenty, and both being right next to each other.  I'm a little surprised how low Inverness is on the list.  Thought it would be top 5, especially given the work being done there.

[Brian Finn]

With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?
While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.

Which holes at Springfield do you find uninspiring?  What about NCR do you feel makes it superior?

Personally, I have NCR ahead of Springfield, but not by much.  NCR had quite a wide distribution of ratings.  Seems to be a polarizing course.

[BHoover]

Interesting that a sleepy little town like Dayton can muster two of the top twenty, and both being right next to each other.  I'm a little surprised how low Inverness is on the list.  Thought it would be top 5, especially given the work being done there.

This is only my opinion, but I suspect that at least 4 courses will rise in the rankings after the renovation/restoration work is completed and people have a chance to play them more—Inverness, Moraine, Canterbury, and Columbus CC.


The best part about these state ranking threads is that anyone is free to offer up his/her own opinion and rankings.

[Brian Finn]

Our first course write-up:

Inverness
Ben Cowan (Michigan)

I still pinch myself each time I stand on the 1st tee and look across the beautiful shaved bowl shared with the 10th hole, even after many times around this wonderful Ross course.   The course starts out with a gentle handshake and a few breathers before it administers pain.  The architectural aspect that I think is most overlooked at Inverness is the character around the greens.   The tie-ins are so good and the ever so slightly raised push-up greens have such simple, elegant definition.  The strong Ross greens have terrific variety.  You see many simple crowned greens (1st, 7th, 13th) that fit in well with the course, and then bold internal contoured greens like the (2nd, 10th, 12th). 

Most people’s first time around they will be very impressed with the 4th (now 6th), 7th, and 18th holes.  My personal favorite is the 14th hole, where the bunker gives you the clue to hit a hard fade off the tee.  What I love about the hole is the reverse scale, where the green is very small for a long par 4.  The second shot requires less club and the player must anticipate how the ball will react to the ground short of the green.  There is a nice mound in the center of the green that is bold for such a small green. 

The course just went under the knife this year and will re-open next year.   3 of the 4 Fazio holes were removed and the last was altered a great deal.  A few Ross holes and features, along with a Nichols hole, are being restored on additional land owned by the club.  The original routing isn’t able to be replicated with modern technology and lawyers today.  Lastly these changes have me so excited to play the course next year, I feel like a 10-year-old kid on Christmas.

[PCCraig]

I don't have nearly the experience playing in Ohio that others do, but if a neat and fun Tillinghast course west of Cleveland is #39, then Ohio has a pretty deep bench of golf courses.


My grandfather was a member of Lakewood CC for many years and I always enjoyed playing the course. Some really fun (and severe) greens there, although it has long been in need of tree removal. It reminds me a lot of Rochester G&CC here in Minnesota. [size=78%]  [/size]

[Michael George]

For what it is worth, I think the top 11 is pretty good....and in a pretty decent order.


I have a very difficult time differentiating between many of the courses in that top 11, but Brookside, Kirtland, CCPP, Canterbury and Pepper Pike Club each definitely deserve inclusion in that top 11 and I am glad that they received it.  As many who know me are aware, I love Canton Brookside and think it is a truly great golf course (certainly one of the best Ross courses in the country) and I really think it deserves to be that high.  Obviously, some will have MVGC much higher (if you can accept the houses) and others will have Inverness and Scioto higher (I am very excited to play Inverness post changes as many of the original holes are really special), but it is also very reasonable and justified to have them where they fall.  I would rely upon this list if visiting the state for golf and think Brian Finn did a good job.


However, I have no clue how you rank most of the courses after maybe the top 18.  I don't think it is top 11, but Sand Ridge should be on the list somewhere, same with Coldstream,and there are many other courses that are better than some on the bottom of this list.  For that reason, I would have probably stopped the list at 20 and replaced Sugarbush with one of many courses, like Sand Ridge, Coldstream, Shaker Heights, Congress Lake or Wedgewood.   


For disclosure, while having played most everything in Ohio, I didn't participate...........for no good reason other than I didn't get to it. 

[Michael Wolf]

Glenview would be a Cincinnati public that I think would be worthy of a spot on the list if more people saw it. They've held USGA qualifiers there for decades.


I know several good players who prefer Coldstream over Camargo as a better test of their games. That's not what your list is trying to rank, but I do think Coldstream belongs somewhere on the list.


And Miamiview, on the border with Southern Indiana, has long been said to have the two hardest starting holes in the state.


My personal preferences:
Shaker Heights and Inverness would be higher
Double Eagle would be lower
Clovernook I think has the most opportunity to make a big move up the list if it was being properly looked after


MW

[Brian Finn]

For what it is worth, I think the top 11 is pretty good....and in a pretty decent order.

I have a very difficult time differentiating between many of the courses in that top 11, but Brookside, Kirtland, CCPP, Canterbury and Pepper Pike Club each definitely deserve inclusion in that top 11 and I am glad that they received it.  As many who know me are aware, I love Canton Brookside and think it is a truly great golf course (certainly one of the best Ross courses in the country) and I really think it deserves to be that high.  Obviously, some will have MVGC much higher (if you can accept the houses) and others will have Inverness and Scioto higher (I am very excited to play Inverness post changes as many of the original holes are really special), but it is also very reasonable and justified to have them where they fall.  I would rely upon this list if visiting the state for golf and think Brian Finn did a good job.

However, I have no clue how you rank most of the courses after maybe the top 18.  I don't think it is top 11, but Sand Ridge should be on the list somewhere, same with Coldstream,and there are many other courses that are better than some on the bottom of this list.  For that reason, I would have probably stopped the list at 20 and replaced Sugarbush with one of many courses, like Sand Ridge, Coldstream, Shaker Heights, Congress Lake or Wedgewood.   

For disclosure, while having played most everything in Ohio, I didn't participate...........for no good reason other than I didn't get to it.

Thank you for your input, Michael.  You make some very good points. 

There are several courses that I would have expected to make the list that either did not receive enough votes to be included (e.g. Coldstream), or were simply not favored (for whatever reason) by those that chose to contribute (e.g. Sand Ridge).

Ben Cowan (Michigan) really deserves the credit for this list, as he did most of the heavy lifting.  Perhaps next time around, we will receive enough submissions to add a little more statistical rigor to the ranking process. 

One last thought - like many of these lists (even those done with far larger sample size), there is a point in the ranking where courses get very tightly grouped together.  In this case, that started around course #20.  From 20-40 (and really to 50 or 60), the perceived quality of the courses gets extremely similar. 

[Mike Hendren]

Interesting that a sleepy little town like Dayton can muster two of the top twenty, and both being right next to each other.  I'm a little surprised how low Inverness is on the list.  Thought it would be top 5, especially given the work being done there.

Not to mention Miami Valley which snuck in at 40.  While hardly "great" I like the course quite a bit and the club's vibe, or lack thereof suited my sensibilities.  It brings to mind Holston Hills in the 1980's - a generally untouched Ross on the wrong side of town in need of a little tree removal here and there. 

Mike

[Nigel Islam]

Interesting list. I have long felt that I need to make it to Cleveland. I really want to see Kirtland, but maybe I need to have Brookside, Canton higher on my list. I'm still disappointed I couldn't make it to the Mashie at Canterbury a few years back.  Ohio golf is terrific. You can't go wrong with any of the 9 I have had the great pleasure of playing. I personally might have Scioto a touch higher, but I tend to me more of Scioto apologist than most.


Thanks for doing this list guys!

[Josh Bills]

With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?


While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.

Jerry,


In my ranking I had them equal.  Springfield to me was a more enjoyable round as the rough was not overly penal like at NCR S.  If you missed the fairway at NCR it was at least a one shot penalty, which frankly I don't enjoy.  However, the holes were all interesting and both are excellent courses.  As to Springfield, I love the elevation changes and greens and thought the layout was great.  While different in their asks, I felt they were equal in their presentation and both deserved the same grade on the Doak scale as worth seeing.  Mind you I am not a rater, so that is my subjective determination.  I was able to rank over 30+ courses and probably could have done a few more, but just haven't updated my numbers.   

[JLahrman]

Glenview would be a Cincinnati public that I think would be worthy of a spot on the list if more people saw it. They've held USGA qualifiers there for decades.

Are they still hosting qualifiers there? I know they used to have a Publinx qualifier there, and I believe the 1987 Publinx was played at Glenview. The last time I played it was probably 10 years ago and it had become seriously overgrown with trees. I liked playing Glenview, but to be honest I'm not sure it's any better than Sharon Woods, although Sharon Woods' greens are a weakness.

I know several good players who prefer Coldstream over Camargo as a better test of their games. That's not what your list is trying to rank, but I do think Coldstream belongs somewhere on the list.

I agree and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so (at least one other poster mentioned Coldstream as well). It's certainly not top 10 in the state but I would think it belongs in the top 40. And yes, it can be a real bear. You can definitely put up a higher score at Coldstream than Camargo, if that's what tickles your pickle.

[Jeff Shelman]

Agree that Coldstream should be somewhere on the list. It is certainly challenging, but it is also pretty good.

[Tim Rooney]

Stunned with this 'Revisionist Retro' list.Moraine is now better than Scioto, Muirfield Village,Inverness[size=78%]?[/size]
[size=78%]Columbus CC ,an unfinished [/size]Reno,is better than the completed New Albany CC renovation or Sand Ridge?
[/size]Hickory Hills mention is a lower end Columbus club, at best.Never have seen a list this skewed.
[/size]Played Camargo a few years ago with a TGC member and New Albany Pro,which we both remarked we would never again drive (4) hours for this experience.

[Brian Finn]

Agree that Coldstream should be somewhere on the list. It is certainly challenging, but it is also pretty good.

Find us enough people that have played it and are willing to submit a rating, and it will be added.

[BHoover]

Stunned with this 'Revisionist Retro' list.Moraine is now better than Scioto, Muirfield Village,Inverness[size=78%]?[/size]
[size=78%]Columbus CC ,an unfinished [/size]Reno,is better than the completed New Albany CC renovation or Sand Ridge?
Hickory Hills mention is a lower end Columbus club, at best.Never have seen a list this skewed.
Played Camargo a few years ago with a TGC member and New Albany Pro,which we both remarked we would never again drive (4) hours for this experience.

Stunned? Really? It’s a list that averages the personal preferences of a group of posters. It’s meant to be a fun exercise, so please relax.

[Brad Tufts]

How many ballots do you have so far?  Just curious how stat-significant the numbers are.

I've only played a few while passing through several times.

TCC (wow), Canterbury (wow again), Brookside (wow!), Inverness (the 2010 or so version, very good), Denison (hidden gemmy with a couple clunkers), Stonelick Hills (pretty good when I expected very little), Sleepy Hollow (scruffy but good bones).

Edit:  Not making fun with my stat question, just curious...this will be a useful list come next visit to OH!

[Brian Finn]

Stunned with this 'Revisionist Retro' list.Moraine is now better than Scioto, Muirfield Village,Inverness[size=78%]?[/size]
[size=78%]Columbus CC ,an unfinished [/size]Reno,is better than the completed New Albany CC renovation or Sand Ridge?
[/size]Hickory Hills mention is a lower end Columbus club, at best.Never have seen a list this skewed.
[/size]Played Camargo a few years ago with a TGC member and New Albany Pro,which we both remarked we would never again drive (4) hours for this experience.

Tim,

First, great job with the font sizes.  Really makes your points clear. 

Second, you clearly have different taste than the large group that contributed to this exercise.  That's great.  We'd welcome your list, if you'd care to submit one, rather than just calling it a shitty list.  Or just post your own list for comparison.

I love Muirfield Village.  It's either 1 or 2 (along with The Golf Club) among courses in Ohio that I have personally played.  However, I thought Moraine was a better golf course than Scioto, even before Moraine's most recent work was completed.  Scioto remains a great course, but it has suffered through several disjointed renovations over the last 40+ years.  It's an amazing club with tremendous history and a very good golf course, but this group of guys thinks it is a 7.2.  Oh, well.

Regarding Camargo, you are definitely in the minority.  While I haven't had the pleasure myself (closest I got was rained out while waiting in the pro shop), it not only ranks highly here, but also on all of the major magazine lists (31st Golf, 52nd Golf Digest, 19th classic Golfweek).

[Brian Finn]

How many ballots do you have so far?  Just curious how stat-significant the numbers are.

I've only played a few while passing through several times.

TCC (wow), Canterbury (wow again), Brookside (wow!), Inverness (the 2010 or so version, very good), Denison (hidden gemmy with a couple clunkers), Stonelick Hills (pretty good when I expected very little), Sleepy Hollow (scruffy but good bones).

Edit:  Not making fun with my stat question, just curious...this will be a useful list come next visit to OH!

It is not statistically significant. At all. There were about 20 participants (more since the list was posted - will re-publish list eventually), and most courses got between 8 and 12 ratings.  We very purposely went with the simplest possible approach, with the only limitation being that 4+ votes were needed to be counted.

[ward peyronnin]

I have not played many on that list but they are mostly quality: Camargo, Morraine, TGC. I am glad to see Hickory Hills at least made the list.

I enjoyed the lo impact no frills atmosphere of the place and thought Kidwell's design is very well done. I would like to hear any comments regarding why it might be underrated at a 5.5 or if that is all it merits.

There is little glam but trees are properly pruned cared for, bunkers play fairly, grass is neatly trimmed w/o collateral damage but maybe conditioning is a reason? Routing and hole variety are solid. Anyway you guys who posted know better than I.

[Mark Saltzman]

Brian, is this like the Michigan list in that the ballot is open to OH residents only? I've played about half of the courses listed and would be happy to submit next time if it's open to all.