News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Chris Hughes

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #450 on: December 27, 2024, 12:18:00 AM »
Dornoch would not represent the general situation and problems providing and sustaining economical golf in the United Kingdom.


The new labour government have just put multiple daggers into the bodies of many small businesses by increasing wages, insurance contributions, business rates and employment laws. Golf Clubs will suffer and many more will close.




Bring on the robots! 😉




...and the "AI" pin-setting algorithms!!   ;D
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Ken Moum

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #451 on: December 30, 2024, 10:08:43 PM »
I must agree with Mark, but I would also echo Adrian's point that Dornoch is in no sense representative of anything.

Apart from anything else, I am pretty certain it is the golf club that has the highest proportion of its revenue from non-members anywhere in the world.


I'm pretty sure ANGC tops them by several orders of magnitude,  but that's clearly a special case.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Joe_Tucholski

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #452 on: January 01, 2025, 02:10:42 AM »
I'm very lucky I pulled the trigger on joining a local club in St. Andrews and got on the Links Trust Annual Ticket waitlist when I did. After getting in the local club I joined and signing up for the Links Trust Ticket it took me 7 years to get mine.  I'm hearing that waitlist is closer to 15 years long now.  I have no idea if that is true, just rumors I've heard.


Jeff I assume much longer than 15 years for folks getting on the list now IF things continue as they are.  I've been on the waitlist for 3 years and each year the number of people offered a ticket has decreased.  The last e-mail I received in June said they'd allocate 75 a year and I was 1106.  At current pace I'll be able to purchase after 18 years of waiting.  At those timelines I figure a number of people will be unavailable to purchase their ticket when their name comes up.


Local club membership also seems to be quite the wait.  New Club lists "considerable waiting lists are in place."


Another thing I noticed today is the visitor 3 and 7 day unlimited ticket options seem to be gone.  They were on the pricing list yesterday and maybe pending a 2025 price update, but I doubt it as there is now a 54 hole package with a food and beverage credit.

Simon Barrington

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #453 on: February 10, 2025, 07:42:25 AM »
Ireland not Scotland


I have no knowledge of this club, but their comments (and lawsuit) regarding WHS Handicaps and not needing to be a Club Member to hold one are potentially interesting?


https://thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2025/02/irish-golf-club-announces-closure/

Niall C

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #454 on: February 10, 2025, 07:59:25 AM »
Simon


That reads to me more like a business restructuring itself rather than a club closing. Certainly it doesn't appear to be a traditional club which is in charge of its own destiny. And 1,253 members is a huge amount even if many are effectively country members.


Niall

Simon Barrington

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #455 on: February 10, 2025, 08:14:40 AM »
Simon

That reads to me more like a business restructuring itself rather than a club closing. Certainly it doesn't appear to be a traditional club which is in charge of its own destiny. And 1,253 members is a huge amount even if many are effectively country members.

Niall
Thanks
As I said, I have no knowledge beyond the article (& it's not my headline)
I found it interesting to see specific comment (& legal action!) regarding non-Member Handicapping which has come in from all the "Home" Unions under the WHS.
Does opening this mean more nomadic golfers and pressure on membership acquisition over time, especially younger golfers (who are needed by Clubs of all types to solve their demographic issues longer-term)?
I guess only time will tell, and noting this is a single example which may have other factors at play.


Brian_Ewen

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #456 on: February 20, 2025, 07:20:41 PM »

Despite being saved by campaigners only a year ago, Dalmuir Golf Course has been placed under threat of closure once again.

The popular municipal in Clydebank, near Glasgow, was set to close as part of planned cuts by West Dunbartonshire Council until a petition appeared to stave off the danger.

But as the council faces continued financial pressure, Dalmuir has been put on the chopping block for a second time, prompting another campaign.

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/scottish-golf-course-faces-closure-again/

Simon Barrington

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #457 on: February 26, 2025, 11:39:27 AM »

Simon Barrington

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #458 on: March 02, 2025, 05:20:57 PM »

Thomas Dai

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #459 on: March 03, 2025, 04:39:12 AM »
One day cities will have not just no golf courses but no green spaces. No more lungs of the city. And less lungs elsewhere too as urbanisation further expands.
Atb

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #460 on: March 03, 2025, 05:20:30 AM »
One day cities will have not just no golf courses but no green spaces. No more lungs of the city. And less lungs elsewhere too as urbanisation further expands.
Atb
No reasonable person would try to convert the green space in a city they live in. In a healthy city, you'll start to see large buildings overlooking the parks and golf courses. The cities that consider building on the golf course have, in every case, made those larger buildings literally illegal to build. There are two entire generations in most of the UK and US suffering greatly because of our housing shortages born out of restrictive zoning and naivete. It's even worse in Canada.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2025, 05:24:36 AM by Matt Schoolfield »

Marty Bonnar

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #461 on: March 05, 2025, 05:44:43 PM »

Despite being saved by campaigners only a year ago, Dalmuir Golf Course has been placed under threat of closure once again.

The popular municipal in Clydebank, near Glasgow, was set to close as part of planned cuts by West Dunbartonshire Council until a petition appeared to stave off the danger.

But as the council faces continued financial pressure, Dalmuir has been put on the chopping block for a second time, prompting another campaign.

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/scottish-golf-course-faces-closure-again/


Well, that was a very brief stay of execution…:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rkp7pdlg5o
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Brian_Ewen

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #462 on: March 05, 2025, 08:11:42 PM »

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rkp7pdlg5o

Golf course loses survival bid over funding shortfall

West Dunbartonshire Council said it could no longer afford to subsidise Dalmuir Golf Course after a decline in membership
A golf course near Glasgow that earned the support of major winners Bryson DeChambeau and Justin Rose is to close over funding issues.

West Dunbartonshire Council said it could no longer afford to subsidise Dalmuir Golf Course after a steady decline in membership.

The local authority announced the decision as part of a package to close a £7.7m funding gap, which included an 11.5% increase in council tax.

More than 3,500 people had signed a petition to keep the course open, arguing that closure would cut off a way for working class people to get involved the sport.

The council said it would explore opportunities for the course to be passed into the hands of the local community via an asset transfer.

It said it spent about £145,000 subsidising the course in the last year, equating to about £805 per member.

A spokeswoman for the council said: "Despite significant efforts, regrettably membership and usage of Dalmuir Golf Course has continued to decline.

"Our budget gap for 2025/26 was £7.7m and we expect further financial challenges in coming years so we must prioritise protection of the essential services we provide to residents including education, housing and citizen support."


Two-time US open champion DeChambeau appeared in a video posted by long-time tour caddie Craig Connelly on X.

The major winner stressed the importance a club can have in the community where Connelly lives.

A number of other world-class golfers including Rose, Paul McGinley, Luke Donald and Robert MacIntyre also gave their backing for the course to stay open.

The course was saved from closure last year and it is home to a number of clubs in the area including Clydeview Cleddans, Clydebank Overtoun, Kilbowie and Radnor golf clubs.

'Wasteland' fear

Councillors weighed up various options, including whether to increase membership costs, reduce the course to 12 holes or close it completely, before coming to a decision.

Funding for the Loch Lomond Highland Games was also removed as part of the money saving measures.

Gerry Smith, who launched the petition for the course to remain open, said prior to the decision that a community asset transfer would be looked at for the course - which would let the local community take it over.

Craig McLaren, of Clydebank and Overtoun Golf Club, said locals feared the area could become a "wasteland" if it closed.

He added that the course had "gone downhill" in recent years and that West Dunbartonshire Council had not managed to do minor tasks such as updating the course's website with correct information.

Brian_Ewen

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #463 on: March 18, 2025, 08:59:48 PM »

Private investors take control of famous Scottish golf club hit by funding woes
Plans could see financiers remain in charge of prized public asset until 22nd century
Martyn McLaughlin
Published 17th Mar 2025


One of Scotland’s most prized sporting venues could be controlled by a group of private investors for the next century amid controversial plans to secure an injection of capital and transform it into a “world leading” tourism destination.

The historic Carnoustie golf links, which has been held in public ownership since the 19th century, is now being run on a day-to-day basis by a little known consortium of financiers as part of efforts to expedite the return of golf’s prestigious Open Championship.

Amid doubts over Carnoustie’s long-term future as a top-class venue and a lack of funds to make major improvements to on-site facilities, Angus Council, the cash-strapped owner of the links, has approved a short-term deal to hand control of the complex of three courses to a private company, Carnoustie Golf Heritage and Hospitality Group Limited (CGHH), arguing the existing model is “not financially sustainable.”

But talks on a longer-term deal are at an advanced stage, and could see CGHH manage and operate the courses until well into the 22nd century, raising concerns that one of the jewels in the crown of Scottish golf is essentially being privatised. Some critics have expressed concern the venue could ultimately fall into the hands of other parties, such as Saudi Arabia, or even US president Donald Trump.

The changes at Carnoustie, detailed as part of Scorecard: The Business of Golf, a week-long series by The Scotsman scrutinising the financial side of the game in Scotland, mean that as well as bearing responsibility for the costs of running the links, CGHH is also receiving all the income from them.

Under the terms of that seven-figure deal, Carnoustie Golf Links Management Committee (CGLMC), a charitable company that has managed the courses for years, and which drew up the new proposals, has sold its intellectual property rights, including the ‘Carnoustie golf links’ trademark, to CGHH, with all its assets and staff transferring to the private firm.

The arrangement runs until 2033. But in what would amount to the biggest shake-up at the venue in living memory, the investors want a new, long-term lease to run until 2123.


Niall C

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #464 on: March 20, 2025, 06:05:09 AM »

The arrangement runs until 2033. But in what would amount to the biggest shake-up at the venue in living memory, the investors want a new, long-term lease to run until 2123.



I'll bet they do ! Is there anything more uncommercial than a public authority ?


I'd love to compare the development costs of somewhere like Castle Stuart to what these investors are paying for taking over 3 links courses, one of which held the Open not so long ago, and a modern fairly high spec visitor clubhouse. Oh yes, and they get all the branding thrown in.


Niall

Joe_Tucholski

Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #465 on: March 20, 2025, 01:51:22 PM »
I'm very lucky I pulled the trigger on joining a local club in St. Andrews and got on the Links Trust Annual Ticket waitlist when I did. After getting in the local club I joined and signing up for the Links Trust Ticket it took me 7 years to get mine.  I'm hearing that waitlist is closer to 15 years long now.  I have no idea if that is true, just rumors I've heard.


Jeff I assume much longer than 15 years for folks getting on the list now IF things continue as they are.  I've been on the waitlist for 3 years and each year the number of people offered a ticket has decreased.  The last e-mail I received in June said they'd allocate 75 a year and I was 1106.  At current pace I'll be able to purchase after 18 years of waiting.  At those timelines I figure a number of people will be unavailable to purchase their ticket when their name comes up.


Local club membership also seems to be quite the wait.  New Club lists "considerable waiting lists are in place."


Another thing I noticed today is the visitor 3 and 7 day unlimited ticket options seem to be gone.  They were on the pricing list yesterday and maybe pending a 2025 price update, but I doubt it as there is now a 54 hole package with a food and beverage credit.


Received an e-mail with my links ticket wait list status (no change with more than that behind me).  No new tickets released for the 25/26 season.  Reasons given are unprecedented demand and increased rounds on all courses. 

The e-mail mentioned they engaged the help of an independent research firm to generate a survey.  The survey contained questions about demographics and potential changes in types of tickets.

The potential options included: discounted green fee each time you play, a ticket that offers 2-3 course access, a ticket with fixed number of rounds, making some courses links ticket only, seasonal tickets (winter/summer), family access and points based system (you get a certain number of points and playing a course like the old uses more points than playing strathtyrum).

Is there any way the independent research firm does not recommend increasing prices?

Pretty different reality from a club I'm looking at joining less than 30 miles away where they state they created an international membership to generate capital to invest in greens machinery.

For some reason the financial differences of the two relatively close courses initially surprised me.  If I'm being honest I'm realizing I'm very likely the reason the problem exists.  I originally thought a links ticket was economical as the annual fee is lower than a couple rounds.  I'm now wondering if I want to be a links ticket holder because of the quality of the courses or due to an ego boost I'd get from saying I have a links ticket?

Hopefully the lower priced courses survive when the realities return to those discussed in the initial post made in 2017.

Tags: