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Chris Hughes


Brad Lander, currently NY City Comptroller and previously a long tenured City Council member, has gone on record with the idea as he ramps up his bid for Mayor of NYC. 

Campaign video (59 secs) on the topic here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEFS2bxmd3E

30-page "housing plan" here:  https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25554810-brad-lander-housing-plan-march-2025/


In the housing plan pdf he makes some interesting claims about the state of golf, one passage here:

"The popularity of golf has waned over the past twenty years; between 2003 and 2018, the number of golfers declined nationally by 6.8 million or 22% and the number of golfers at half of the City’s municipal golf courses dropped by 17% between 2008 and 2018."

Lander makes no mention of which 4 courses would be targeted but on page-36 in the housing-plan he lists the 12 courses in 2 buckets, accessible to "transit, and not.   Vannie, Dyker, Mosholu and Forest Park are the only 4 he considers "accessible".


Will be an interesting situation to monitor...
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Matt Schoolfield

Sigh...

No reasonable person would try to convert the green space in a city they live in. In a healthy city, you'll start to see large buildings overlooking the parks and golf courses. The cities that consider building on the golf course have, in every case, made those larger buildings literally illegal to build. There are two entire generations in most of the UK and US suffering greatly because of our housing shortages born out of restrictive zoning and naivete. It's even worse in Canada.

La Tourette Golf Course: completely surrounded by single family homes, with no connection to transit.

Dyker Beach Golf Course: surrounded by single family homes and duplexes.

Pelham Bay and Split Rock Golf Courses: the course is on a peninsula with only single family homes on the north edge. Zero connection to public transit even though the site is on the Amtrak line.

Mosholu Golf Course: A bit more complicated, there are 1-story units next to the course, but tenements on the south side. The course is connected to the larger Van Cortland Park, which is surrounded on three sides by single family homes.

Eliminating all these courses would permanently destroy extremely valuable open space, to build inefficient housing that the market would, in all likelihood, build itself if it were just legal to do so. If we don't want golf courses, by all means, make them public parks, but don't remove green space in the densest city in America. We keep pretending that we need more land, when really we need to just relegalize organic urban development.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2025, 02:40:48 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Steve Abt

Regardless of the merits of the plan (not insane, but giving every lot 30 feet more of transferable air rights, with no land use review only DOB, makes more sense to me) or one’s thoughts on Lander (I’ll rank him, but not #1), cutting off the data in 2018 is shameful and dishonest.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2025, 05:05:44 PM by Steve Abt »

Jeff Schley

cutting off the data in 2018 is shameful and dishonest.
I would think one could write a counter article using 2018-present numbers as well, with the public requiring 4 more courses.  Certainly compromise is getting to be a bad word in politics so who knows what will happen.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Greg Hohman

Interesting. Although I visit, I know nothing about the political landscape. Is Lander a contender and how hot is the topic?

newmonumentsgc.com

Rob Marshall

I had to laugh at the data cutoff before covid. Do these people really think everyone is stupid? They must.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ian Andrew

There was a push to close some of Toronto's public courses for additional park space.
The density and population growth of the city does drive this, but there's plenty of unused public space.

The bottom line on the golf courses was the problem with unionized crews.
But it's worse at other venues we would never close. Like hockey arenas...


Golf has a perception issue with those who don't play the game.

"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Ryan Book

I don't know if you've noticed any examples recently but fringe candidates only become contenders by announcing outrageous ideas and then letting social media members squabble up until they enter the mainstream consciousness. Brad Lander is a fringe candidate...don't go firing your pistols in the air on X about this.


I can't tell you exactly which four courses he has in mind...and neither can he. It's just a nice number.
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

Chris Hughes

I had to laugh at the data cutoff before covid. Do these people really think everyone is stupid? They must.


Not everyone, but definitely the vast majority of his constituents who vote...and it's easy to understand how he arrived at that spot.
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Craig Sweet

Look, he is asking for $20 billion over 5 year period to build 500,000 homes. That works out to $40,000 per house.   Not exactly helping with affordability in a market with a median home price of $775,000.  He might be doing a good job of framing the problem, but this is not a well thought out solution...in my opinion.

Kevin_Reilly

Ignore the picture (video showed an old Michael Douglas movie), but this recent SF-area Reddit post illustrates a potential populus move against about even private courses.  Not sure why they ignore the cemetery next to Claremont CC.


"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Richard Hetzel

Wait until they find out that Ferry Point Links will be closed for a Casino at some point in the future too. This is really sad, the lack of public golf around this area is seriously lacking, especially with so many people in the NYC area. Golf has taken off again, post Covid so why use 2018 data sets? Obfuscation!
Favorites Played in 2024:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI), AIken GC (SC), Fort Mill GC (SC)

Steve Lapper

This NYC politician proclamation is little more than a tail to the cries made across the country in California.


FWIW, Ferry Point, while it would seem to the naked eye to be ideal for residential housing (on the East River & LI Sound), wouldn't work. It sits upon a former landfill that still, to this day emits significant methane gas. NYCDEP, NY DEC & the EPA all would never go for it.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Matt Schoolfield

Ignore the picture (video showed an old Michael Douglas movie), but this recent SF-area Reddit post illustrates a potential populus move against about even private courses.  Not sure why they ignore the cemetery next to Claremont CC.
Anyone who understands land use policy in CA knows that private clubs in CA get away with murder on their property taxes.

I can understand why the natives are restless, especially in places like the Bay Area, that stack the deck against young people by blocking as much urban development as they can, primarily to benefit the older homeowners at clubs like Claremont. Cities like SF and Oakland aren't even allowing enough homes to be built, just to house the kids born 18 years ago, much less people who need to move there for work. Why not? Because building something that might overlook a place like Claremont would be gauche, and we can't have that.

Bruce Katona

Developable sites for affordable housing is a huge election year issue in NYC. Vacancy rates for aparatments which rent at around market rate rent in the 5 Boroughs.


Average median income for a family of 3 living in NYC is $139,770 (think a family of a teacher, a 1st responder & 1 child). To qualify for affordable housing that same family of 3 family needs to earn less than 60% of area median income or less than $83,880.


That family earning $83,800 would then pay $1,747/month in rent for an affordable apartment + utilities.


Currently, affordable apartments have approximately a 1% vacancy rate, with a need of well over 100,000 new units. 


NYC is attempting to think outside the box to locate land to construct affordable units. Given the NYC Golf courses are primarily NYC Parks Dept property, the regulatory hurdles, not withstanding the adjacent prioprty owner vitriol for proposing to develop open space parkland, are steep to have this idea gain any real traction.


Someone thinking outside the box would  consider combining the hundreds of acres of cemetery property in the outer boroughs with golf above the resting souls, then develop the exsiting golf courses for housing - now that is an out-side the box multi-pronged solution, though perhaps not palatable or politically feasible.
"If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine
And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung
Would you hear my voice come through the music
Would you hold it near as it were your own....."
Robert Hunter, Jerome Garcia

Craig Sweet

Thinking outside the box...A Montana school official suggested developing land the local school district owns and build housing for teachers. 


The cost of land is a HUGE deterrent to building housing that is affordable. I just don't see how you can build 500,000 homes for $20 billion over 10 years.   

B.Ross

Sigh...

No reasonable person would try to convert the green space in a city they live in. In a healthy city, you'll start to see large buildings overlooking the parks and golf courses. The cities that consider building on the golf course have, in every case, made those larger buildings literally illegal to build. There are two entire generations in most of the UK and US suffering greatly because of our housing shortages born out of restrictive zoning and naivete. It's even worse in Canada.

La Tourette Golf Course: completely surrounded by single family homes, with no connection to transit.

Dyker Beach Golf Course: surrounded by single family homes and duplexes.

Pelham Bay and Split Rock Golf Courses: the course is on a peninsula with only single family homes on the north edge. Zero connection to public transit even though the site is on the Amtrak line.

Mosholu Golf Course: A bit more complicated, there are 1-story units next to the course, but tenements on the south side. The course is connected to the larger Van Cortland Park, which is surrounded on three sides by single family homes.

Eliminating all these courses would permanently destroy extremely valuable open space, to build inefficient housing that the market would, in all likelihood, build itself if it were just legal to do so. If we don't want golf courses, by all means, make them public parks, but don't remove green space in the densest city in America. We keep pretending that we need more land, when really we need to just relegalize organic urban development.


dyker beach is ~`5 min walk to the nearest subway station. id consider that being connected to mass transit esp in the context of other NYC courses and their proximity to the nearest train station, be it subway LIRR or metro north.

Matt Schoolfield

Dyker Beach Golf Course: surrounded by single family homes and duplexes.
dyker beach is ~`5 min walk to the nearest subway station. id consider that being connected to mass transit esp in the context of other NYC courses and their proximity to the nearest train station, be it subway LIRR or metro north.
I certainly do not disagree with you here, it's one of the closest to transit of the entire muni golf system. That said, it's still an unsustainable policy even if it were only targeting transit rich corridors.

My main concern here is about housing policy and how it is disconnected with the politics of housing development. Here I am all too familiar with the terms Bruce brings up, though I would say that it's important to draw a distinction between capital-"A" "Affordable" housing, which is really just subsidized housing, and affordable housing (now called "attainable" housing) which is housing that, at market rates, can be afforded by someone at or near median income.

The reason why I think people in the golf industry (especially the muni golf industry) need to understand the housing trap we are in, is exactly that "Affordable" housing projects will continue to target golf course exactly because the incentives of this development pattern usually need green field development (e.g. golf courses) for the projects to make sense. The reason why is that to get the Affordable units to pencil, the price of the market rate units need to be higher than they otherwise would be, which is all well and good for the folks that literally win the lottery for the Affordable units, but it doesn't even begin to address general housing affordability because the market rates units are subsidizing the Affordable units... not the general public.

Here we see that this isn't even a policy that actually deals with the underlying cost of developing housing for most people, and thus the underlying housing crisis, yet the entire program is built on consuming the finite, effectively non-renewable resource that is urban green space.

We need only to look at the zoning map of NYC to see what is the real problem. At Dyker Beach we see only R4, R5, and the ridiculous R3 zoning that somehow exists literally walking distance from public transit. This pales in comparison to the absurdity that is the R1 zoning that somehow exist in NYC, adjacent to Pelham Bay & Split Rock GC or La Tourette. Because of these arbitrary lines, this means the best you can do in the area, an area where houses regularly sell for $2M+, if you can get permission, is some low-rise row housing, which is effectively already built out where it's legal. It's trivially obvious that the market would be able to handle upzoning (incremental or otherwise), but rather than deal with the root problem, that any kind of mechanism to have supply meet demand exist, most folks would simply consume the existing public good so that no physical structure can ever change.

This is all well and good for folks who don't actually give a shit about the younger generations being able to build a life for themselves, but it is very, very bad for golf, which is why we should care. I don't care if your preferred solutions are of the more aggressive YIMBY variety (see: Nolan Gray's Arbitrary Lines), or if you share an incrementalist approach like I do (see: Strong Towns' Escaping the Housing Trap), or a mix of the two (see: CA YIMBY's Nolan Gray and Strong Towns' founder Chuck Marohn discussing their policy differences), the fact of the matter is that these neighborhoods must be allowed to grow naturally or golf courses and golf culture is going to disappear in these areas. And if that happens, the political animosity toward private clubs will grow dramatically. Generally speaking, people in the golf industry would do well do have a deep understanding of municipal finance, housing policy, and land use policy if they work in urban or suburban parts of America, because we're living through is non-trivial upheaval in the development paradigm, and it's going to have a material effect on the golf industry.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2025, 08:12:16 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Kevin_Reilly

Because building something that might overlook a place like Claremont would be gauche, and we can't have that.


Claremont is a poor example to use.  It is surrounded by single and multi-family housing (and the previously mentioned cemetery).  If you ever get a chance to play there, it will be obvious to you.  Even on the drive into the club.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Matt Schoolfield

Because building something that might overlook a place like Claremont would be gauche, and we can't have that.
Claremont is a poor example to use.  It is surrounded by single and multi-family housing (and the previously mentioned cemetery).  If you ever get a chance to play there, it will be obvious to you.  Even on the drive into the club.
Claremont is a perfect example because the reason why there are only single family homes in Rockridge is exactly that it's only zoned for single family homes. I'm familiar with the area. You could trivially upzone the entire neighborhood and it would grow organically, but instead we pretend that the existing density is there naturally when it is clearly not. The reason why it's such low density is exactly because the existing residents want to force it to be low density, and long time residents (often the members of these clubs) receive the zero-sum benefits of that policy, but this is at real expense to the general public. It is this disconnect between housing demand and housing supply, and the zero-sum trade-offs involved, that is driving the political animosity toward these private clubs, and this is why I think it's important for people in this space to pay attention to this problem.

Now, I will grant you there is some multi-family housing by the clubhouse on Broadway Terrace, but this reiterates my point. The fact that there is multi-family housing that is even further away from a major transit station (BART) than most of Rockridge again suggests that supply in the area is severely constrained.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2025, 06:38:13 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Michael Felton

"I tell ya! Country clubs and cemeteries are the biggest wastes of prime real estate" - Al Czervik, worth about as much time as this guy's suggestions IMO

Craig Sweet

If it isn't already happening, I can see the day when private golf clubs sell off their land to a developer. 

Pierre_C

Greg,
I'm a NYC resident and Lander is grasping for attention. NYC politics is run by financiers and property developers. You can sprinkle in a few lawyers every now and then.

Lander is basically a nobody in the NYC mayoral race. The contenders are A. Cuomo, Adams, and Stringer (Stringer has been running for mayor the last 8 years). Lander is polling around 6% with 3 other candidates. Cuomo is polling around 33% out of 10+ candidates.


Basic NYC Housing Data
28% of all housing and 44% of all rentals in NYC are rent stabilize. 7.4% of rentals in NYC are public housing - NYCHA, 177,569 apartments in 335 housing developments.229,000 rental units in NYC are subsidized by a government entity - local, state, or federal.NYC also has a 80/20 rule. This requires any residental development to allocate 20% of apartments for low income.



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Interesting. Although I visit, I know nothing about the political landscape. Is Lander a contender and how hot is the topic?
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e^(iπ) + 1 = 0

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