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David_Tepper

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Gary Sato

Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2015, 04:44:01 PM »
I haven't seen a list of the courses although I did read that a few courses on Hainan Island are included.

I'm wondering if the Bill Coore or Tom Doak courses are part of the 66. Also Stone Forest?

Garland Bayley

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2015, 04:46:28 PM »
I haven't seen a list of the courses although I did read that a few courses on Hainan Island are included.

I'm wondering if the Bill Coore or Tom Doak courses are part of the 66. Also Stone Forest?

On the best new course 2015 thread, Tom said it looks like his course on Hainan Island will be gone.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 04:48:35 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Marty Bonnar

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2015, 06:19:29 PM »
The moratorium on new course development was kicking in twelve years ago, just as we were trying to break into the market. I guess this is the long term result. I'm not altogether sure I'd want to do business there these days anyway. Assume what you will what I mean by that!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town.

Gary Sato

Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2015, 07:50:43 PM »
I haven't seen a list of the courses although I did read that a few courses on Hainan Island are included.

I'm wondering if the Bill Coore or Tom Doak courses are part of the 66. Also Stone Forest?

On the best new course 2015 thread, Tom said it looks like his course on Hainan Island will be gone.


Hope he was paid in advance. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 07:55:40 PM »
I haven't seen a list of the courses although I did read that a few courses on Hainan Island are included.

I'm wondering if the Bill Coore or Tom Doak courses are part of the 66. Also Stone Forest?

On the best new course 2015 thread, Tom said it looks like his course on Hainan Island will be gone.


Hope he was paid in advance. 

We were paid "nearly all" of our fees for the project.  Still not certain as to its fate.  The course is in a separate category on the list:  it was developed entirely legally [there was even a bid process by the local government], but somehow now the central government has ruled against it.  For now, they have planted trees in the middle of some holes [even the bunkers and a green or two] while they hash it out.

I don't believe any of the clubs on the list of 66 are courses that have been open for a long time, but I have not seen the list.

Kerry Gray

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 08:31:07 PM »
This is the list translated as best as I can. There is more than one listed from Hainan but Tom may be to confirm which projects they are, the translations don't always make sense in English.
I live in China and we have one local area course being pressured to close and another (quite good facilty) which is unlicensed. We have 8 courses within 30km, only one is truly private. So we are concerned.

Stadium name stadium address
A golf course, Tongzhou District, Beijing Wenyu bottom Shun Zi town new village
Palace Road, west of the town of two Beijing Zuo Zhuanghu Fengtai Sports Park Golf Course
3 Beijing Delong agricultural demonstration garden golf Chaoyang District Jinzhan
4 Tianjin Shi County Golf Course collar southern tier Jingu highway east of the Outer Ring Road green belt
5 Kingswood Golf Course Tianjin Jinnan District Balitai town days Kingswood Xingyaowuzhou
6 Tianjin Pearl River Hot Springs Golf Course (two) Baodi Zhou Liang Town
7 Hebei Qinhuangdao City harbor area Yuanming Hills Golf Course Qinhuangdao City West Town
8 Taiyuan Changfeng golf Wanbailin West Valley West
9 Shanxi Yuncheng Yuncheng yanhuqu Nanshan Golf Nan office
10 Inner Mongolia Erdos City Dongsheng a pass new Dongsheng District Agricultural Park Golf Course Hampshire town nine successful village
11 Inner Mongolia Eurasian sports resort golf course construction in Baotou City Road north of Castle Peak District
12 Inner Mongolia Erdos road travel and leisure area golf Zhungeer road town Ordos City
13 Chifeng thirteen Games golf events in Chifeng Hongshan Road, Nanshan Valley
Dawn village 14 Dandong Tianqiaogou Mountain Golf Course Kuandian Manchu Autonomous County town of two mountains, two groups
15 Fuxin Haizhou mine Mine State Park Golf Course Sunjiawan Fuxin City Taiping Street Siping community
16 Shenyang Dongling District, Lee Sang Lee Sang golf town Licun
17 Shenyang Hun River south bank of the south golf course (Hun River Bridge to grow new Railway Bridge) beach on the ground
18 eco Puhe Shenyang Sports Park Golf Course Shenbei Shenyang moral development zones Po Road
19 Shanghai Pudong International Leisure Park Golf Course Nanhui old town
20 in Nanjing body Peabody Springs Golf Course
21 Zhejiang Zhoushan Islands zhujiajian Sports Park Golf Course Zhoushan Putuo District zhujiajian Ohira posts and pine Tippy reclamation area
22 Hangzhou Chunan Chunan County Sports Park Golf Course left port town Jinxian Bay Area
23 Maanshan and counties such as golf courses and Lake County High Guan Cun Yang Zhen Shi
24 East Pingshan Xiamen Siming District, Xiamen Golf Course East Pingshan
25 Nanchang, Jiangxi Nanchang Evergrande Oasis Golf Course Silver Triangle Development Zone of Nanchang County
26 Ganzhou City, Jiangxi Ganzhou Sports Park Golf Course Zhanggong Sandston
27 Jiujiang, Jiangxi Lushan CITIC West Golf Course Jiujiang Lushan Scenic West
28 Yingtan Lung Fu Shan ecological health Golfcourse Dragon and Tiger Mountain area
Fangzi village 29 Binzhou Snow Hill Golf Course Zouping Binzhou Zouping County, West Dong Town
30 Weihai Wendeng call Ray Hot Spring Golf Course
Weihai Tom Park Springs Golf Course Weihai Wendeng Wendengying only Maling
32 Weifang, Shandong Weifang Zhucheng Lushan golf Zhucheng streets
33 Dasan Qingdao International Golf Course Pingdu City Dianzi Zhen
34 Qingdao Han Long Golf Pingdu City, I wish Town
35 Moe Hill Golf Course Qingdao, Shandong Qingdao Lacey City Southern town of Shu Meng Village
36 Linyi City of Shandong Linyi Lan Bay Park Golf Course Economic and Technological Development Zone
37 Park Golf Course Xianning tourism Xianning City, Fushan office I Zuo village
Wuhan Jiangxia Tangxun 38 golf courses in city of Wuhan Bridge District
39 Sycamore Hills Golf Course in Hubei Ezhou Ezhou Indus Lake District
40 Lumen Xiangyang, Hubei Xiangyang City Xiangzhou District Golf Lumen Temple area
41 Liuyang City Medical Edible Botanical Garden Golf Liuyang City, the ancient town Umeda Village
42 Guangzhou Huadu District, Guangzhou City Golf Course Salzburg Dong
Dragon 43 Huizhou Huizhou City Water Town Golf deer Kong Management District
44 Huizhou Dongjiang Pearl Golf Zone, Huizhou City Water Town Hengsha
45 Huizhou City of Guangdong Huiyang District Jinyu Orient Golf autumn long cloth
46 Maoming City Dianbai Bohe golf Dianbai Bohe town west wharf
47 Jieyang City, Guangdong Jieyang City Jingming golf JieXi mayor Tan Jing River Park
48 Guangxi Laibin, Guangxi Laibin Watertown Golf Overseas Chinese Investment Zone beetles Island Area
Chaoyang Township 49 Guilin, Guangxi Guilin Sports & Leisure Centre Golf Course Seven area
50 Haikou City, Hainan Island Style Sima slope sports base golf course
51 public golf courses in Hainan Ding'an Ding'an thunderous lakeside town of Lijiang
52 Sanya Aviation and Tourism Vocational School golf horizon village town of Sanya City 布梅
53 Chengdu Qingyang Green Ridge Park Golf Course Qingyang District, home neighborhood offices
54 golf courses in Chengdu, Sichuan Chengdu, Pujiang Shixiang Hu Pujiang County, Chaoyang Town, a good town, Daxing Town
55 Kunming Liangwang Mountain Ecological Tourism Zone sports Gulmarg golf course was a goldsmith shop offices
56 eco-tourism and leisure sports Yunnan Ruili River Golf Course Meng Mao town of Ruili City, village banks collapse
57 Yunnan sister divisions Ruili River Dredging segment landscaping golf Ruili JiangJie segment reporting
58 Yunnan Honghe Prefecture Gejiu Gejiu City Golf Datun Datun village Tunzhen
59 Tengchong County, Yunnan Baoshan Stone song eco-tourism resort town golf Baoshan Stone Town Qu Qu stone Tengchong County community
60 Tengchong County, Yunnan Baoshan volcano Eco Resort Golf Course
Kama Area Taiping Village fanjingshanensis 61 Tongren Fanjing ecological Eguchi County Sports Park Golf Course
62 Dushan County, Guizhou Qiannan Long your international health center hundred Springs Village Golf Mitsui Qiannan Dushan County
63 Zunyi City, Guizhou est Koyama for outdoor sports tourism and leisure base golf Zunyi Zunyi County Long Lake est Kengzhen comb community pool
64 The Links Golf Course Xi'an Weihe Weihe Xi'an City marsh section
65 Shaanxi to plant ornamental Yuan Luo Panlong golf Shangluo Zhashui Panlong eco-industrial park
66 Muslims in Yinchuan, Ningxia Yongning County Ecological Park Golf Course

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2015, 10:01:39 PM »
Bill Coore's Course - Shanqin Bay - is backed by relatives of one of Mao's oldest Generals. Word is they will be just fine!

Ron Farris

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 04:05:28 AM »
"Haikou City, Hainan Island Style Sima slope sports base golf course"

Heard it called many things but not a Slope Sports base golf course.
I have called it my place of work for the past 4 years.

In fact I was instrumental in locating trees & shrubs to please the current situation.

While this is China one has to "Hear What is being Thought"..... not what is spoken or written.  Perhaps the most interesting comment I have heard. 

The Island Golf Club at Simapo Island,  when and IF approved, will be relatively easy to put back together............provided the duration doesn't take to long for applications and approvals. 

David_Tepper

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« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 08:22:58 PM by David_Tepper »

Josh Stevens

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2015, 08:26:44 PM »
Im not sure why everything thinks this is surprising.  I worked in China for years and everyone I knew was saying 10 years ago that this would end in tears.  There is not enough land or water for the population let alone golf courses, but it seemed an industry intent on pushing right to the edge.

Perhaps a few little munis may have been a better way of going about it rather than importing the unsustainable opulent model

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2015, 08:39:56 PM »
Im not sure why everything thinks this is surprising.  I worked in China for years and everyone I knew was saying 10 years ago that this would end in tears.  There is not enough land or water for the population let alone golf courses, but it seemed an industry intent on pushing right to the edge.

Perhaps a few little munis may have been a better way of going about it rather than importing the unsustainable opulent model

Which is different, how, exactly, from the worst case scenarios being published on the California drought?

[I said worst case scenarios. Ask me in 84-120 months what happens.]

Josh Stevens

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2015, 09:25:36 PM »
HAs CA seen an explosion of new courses or is the drought affecting them all?

I would be curious to know much water is poured onto a square metre of Californian golf turf per year compared to elsewhere in the world

David_Tepper

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2015, 09:43:14 PM »
Jonathan & Josh -

There are other threads discussing the impact of the drought on golf courses in California. Let's stick to China on this one. ;)

That being said, remember many golf courses in California are big users of reclaimed water and serve a useful function in doing so. Also, this article may be of interest:

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2015/04/is-golf-being-unfairly-targete.html

DT

Josh Stevens

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2015, 09:54:25 PM »
I worked extensively across many areas of rural china over a few years.  It was common to see every square inch of land that was remotely arable, planted with something edible.  It is a big country but surprisingly little of it is amenable to proper agriculture - the north is all desert and much of the west and south is mountainous and really only good for very labour intensive terracing etc. 

Flat land, in good climates with water, is rare in China. Afraid I am of the view that golf simply has no place there.

astavrides

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2015, 02:20:57 AM »
Jonathan & Josh -

There are other threads discussing the impact of the drought on golf courses in California. Let's stick to China on this one. ;)

That being said, remember many golf courses in California are big users of reclaimed water and serve a useful function in doing so. Also, this article may be of interest:

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2015/04/is-golf-being-unfairly-targete.html

DT

What is the useful function they serve in using reclaimed water?
Seems like the Daily Beast article the GD article makes fun of has more info than the GD article, though it is no peer-reviewed scientific journal article either.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/11/town-with-11-golf-courses-is-sucking-california-dry.html

cary lichtenstein

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2015, 06:58:07 AM »
Could this happen here?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jon Wiggett

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2015, 07:35:00 AM »
Could this happen here?

Where is here? and can you demolish a golf course?

Jim Nugent

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2015, 08:02:07 AM »

Seems like the Daily Beast article the GD article makes fun of has more info than the GD article, though it is no peer-reviewed scientific journal article either.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/11/town-with-11-golf-courses-is-sucking-california-dry.html

The Daily Beast article says a town with 11 golf courses (Bermuda Dunes and area) is sucking California dry.  Some basic arithmetic makes that statement look absurd.  

According to the article, on average each person in BD uses 379 gallons of water per day.  Average for California is 89 gallons per person.  So Bermuda Dunes uses, on average, over four times as much water per person as the rest of the state.  

But Bermuda Dunes population is just 6159.  California overall has over 38 million people.  Which means while Bermuda Dunes uses 2.15 million gallons per day, the state as a whole uses over 3.4 billion gallons per day.  By the logic of the article, a town that uses well less than one one thousandth of California residential water is sucking the entire state dry.  

BD could stop using water altogether: it would have about the same effect on CA water supplies as adding one drop of water to a half gallon bucket.  






Josh Stevens

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2015, 08:13:38 AM »
Water aside, there are clearly other issues in China. 
For commercial reasons, China has chosen the wealthy opulent option.  Rather than a sport, golf is being promoted as an accoutrement to wealth and success.  I am sure there are a few enthusiasts, but equally sure there are many many more Chinese players that don't understand it, are not good at it and don't really like it, but play it nonetheless because it is a overt display of wealth.

That is not sustainable and clearly is not something the government wishes to promote.  I cant see anybody missing these places if they should not have been built in the first place

Adam Clayman

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2015, 08:39:16 AM »

While this is China one has to "Hear What is being Thought"..... not what is spoken or written.  Perhaps the most interesting comment I have heard. 



Here's a thought.... Rio Olympics shouldn't allow a team from China to participate.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

astavrides

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2015, 08:54:05 AM »

Seems like the Daily Beast article the GD article makes fun of has more info than the GD article, though it is no peer-reviewed scientific journal article either.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/11/town-with-11-golf-courses-is-sucking-california-dry.html

The Daily Beast article says a town with 11 golf courses (Bermuda Dunes and area) is sucking California dry.  Some basic arithmetic makes that statement look absurd.  

According to the article, on average each person in BD uses 379 gallons of water per day.  Average for California is 89 gallons per person.  So Bermuda Dunes uses, on average, over four times as much water per person as the rest of the state.  

But Bermuda Dunes population is just 6159.  California overall has over 38 million people.  Which means while Bermuda Dunes uses 2.15 million gallons per day, the state as a whole uses over 3.4 billion gallons per day.  By the logic of the article, a town that uses well less than one one thousandth of California residential water is sucking the entire state dry.  

BD could stop using water altogether: it would have about the same effect on CA water supplies as adding one drop of water to a half gallon bucket.  







The title was figurative, not literal. The article itself did not make the claim that you go to great lengths to debunk.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2015, 08:55:25 AM »
And yet, I leave for China tomorrow morning for one of my projects there.  It is on Hainan where golf is legal.  Approvals are said to be in place, but then some locals say they need to save about 5 acres of rice paddies in various locations, so we need to resolve it for construction to begin.

I really have no understanding of how it all fits in, and when I ask my clients, they say the same thing. Just that it is "very confusing."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kerry Gray

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2015, 09:00:47 AM »
Josh,
I live in China as well and I am well travelled throughout the country. While land issues are present, the government here wastes no time in building huge monuments which are not remotely used to full capacity. While arable land is certainly an issue, much of it has been turned over to factories, especially in the eastern areas like the Yangtse River delta. Some of China's most arable land and its converted to cities and factories. If China continues on this path, it will have issues but the farming system here is remarkably inefficient. My mate runs an organic farming company here and the practices he sees are far removed from modern farming.
As for the image of golf as elitest, it's marketed that way here because that's a very common method to market anything remotely "western". Wine, clothes, food, etc. How is BMW marketed in China? Does it work? Resoundingly yes. Did golf in the USA begin any different?
A balanced society should make space for all the activities it's members enjoy. Golf is recreation and if the land can be paid for and used properly than it deserves its place. Nobody is suggesting they build golf courses in downtown Shanghai anymore. But their will always be areas not ideal for farming or residences which can be used for golf. The middle class want these options available to them. I disagree when land has been taken away from locals unfairly, or should be used to meet a more immediate local need. And if you think these courses that are being closed will be returned to farmland, you are mistaken. The local course in my town they want to close will be used for further housing and retail development. More empty villas, a plague that is everywhere in this country but returns a tidy tax profit to the local government.
And I disagree with your assessment of Chinese golfers, I know many and they really enjoy the game. Yes, some join clubs for the prestige but I know far too many good Chinese golfers to think they got that way for prestige. They enjoy it.
I believe China can find a balance.



cary lichtenstein

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Re: "China's Central Government Orders Demolition Of 66 Golf Courses"
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2015, 09:09:18 AM »
I know this is far fetched, but there is a war against the 1%, a war against Wall St, California has a drought, golf courses are for the 1%, California needs the water, California is ultra liberal, by Presidential Degree or Executive Order, I can actually see this happening and the land would be excellent for affordable housing, especially for the 47%.

Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

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