5th Course for Kohler in Wisconsin?

[Matt Kardash]

It would be cool if Doak and Dye got to work together. I think it would make for an interesting dynamic. Tom, you should make some calls! 

[Jim Nugent]

It would be cool if Doak and Dye got to work together. I think it would make for an interesting dynamic. Tom, you should make some calls! 

I was wondering how it work out.   Who would do what?

[Tom_Doak]

It would be cool if Doak and Dye got to work together. I think it would make for an interesting dynamic. Tom, you should make some calls! 

I was wondering how it work out.   Who would do what?

I would just go back to picking up sticks, shooting grades on greens, and listening to everything he said.  It served me well last time.

[Ben Sims]

It would be cool if Doak and Dye got to work together. I think it would make for an interesting dynamic. Tom, you should make some calls! 

I was wondering how it work out.   Who would do what?

I would just go back to picking up sticks, shooting grades on greens, and listening to everything he said.  It served me well last time.

Speaking of, I've got some leave to burn. Where in the world is Brian Slawnik?

[Tom_Doak]

I would just go back to picking up sticks, shooting grades on greens, and listening to everything he said.  It served me well last time.

Speaking of, I've got some leave to burn. Where in the world is Brian Slawnik?

Still in New Zealand, still waiting on permits to build the other half of our golf course.

[RJ_Daley]

Is it "not for public information" where the location is for this N.Z. course you mention?

[Howard Riefs]

Tom,

How does the property compare to Arcadia Bluffs, which also has only four lakeside holes?

It's not elevated.  The seaside portion is low rolling sand dunes, maybe 20 feet at their highest point [as far as I remember, it's been 20+ years].  The portion further inland does not have much view of the water.

Thanks, Tom.

Is it "not for public information" where the location is for this N.Z. course you mention?

Tara-iti Golf Club in Mangawhai, a project 60 miles north of Auckland.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56809.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51651.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54334.0.html

[PCCraig]

This is really interesting. Pete Dye and Herb Kohler have created two really great, and two really good golf courses in east-central Wisconsin. Considering the product Pete Dye delivered in the past in the form of Blackwolf Run (River) and Whistling Straits, I think he has earned the right to build a 5th course.

I really enjoy the American Club. There are a couple of world class golf courses, really great fly fishing, there is a full service hunt club, and an incredible spa.

The Bandon model, soon to be recreated at Sand Valley, is great. But not every resort needs to follow that "Bandon" model to be effective. If anything, Kohler is a far better well-rounded vacation destination than Bandon. Adding a 5th course, or potentially a 3rd great one, just makes it that much easier to visit every couple of years.

[Mark Smolens]

Pat, +1 on your latest post.

I don't get up to Kohler as often as I would like. . . the cost is very high. But now that I have a significant other in my life, I know that I will be able to sell a visit. The spa, the health club, and the museum will give her plenty to do while I'm out chasing little white balls in the rough.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom,

How does the property compare to Arcadia Bluffs, which also has only four lakeside holes?

It's not elevated.  The seaside portion is low rolling sand dunes, maybe 20 feet at their highest point [as far as I remember, it's been 20+ years].  The portion further inland does not have much view of the water.

Thanks, Tom.

Is it "not for public information" where the location is for this N.Z. course you mention?

Tara-iti Golf Club in Mangawhai, a project 60 miles north of Auckland.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56809.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51651.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54334.0.html

Wow, I am really slipping in my GCA.com participation.  Firstly, I completely missed ALL of these threads over a two year period about this New Zealand project of TD's.  I mean, missing a thread now and then is one thing.... but I missed three of them!  Then, I managed to drive about 5 miles west of this project and never knew it was there, whereby I'd have atleast made a couple hour detour to see it!!!   

WE saw some beautiful looking beach and dunes in the horizon along this general path and detoured just to see the great scenery, and like so much of what we saw in N.Z. is breathtakingly beautiful.  But I was thinking, this area could really use a great beach-coastal golf course. 

Lastly, I find it sort of comical that I sent TD an IM upon my return from N.Z. about this "really good" golfing coastal dunes near Whakatane (north coast near Rotarua) of an existing course that desperately needs a reno.  Here TD has been building a prime idyllic golf destination course all along in N.Z.    

[Phil McDade]

Kohler's course is running into significant local opposition, in pretty stark contrast to the Whistling Straits/Irish project:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/environmentalists-kohler-collide-on-lake-michigan-golf-course-plan-b99311979z1-267568661.html

[Howard Riefs]

Kohler's course is running into significant local opposition, in pretty stark contrast to the Whistling Straits/Irish project:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/environmentalists-kohler-collide-on-lake-michigan-golf-course-plan-b99311979z1-267568661.html

But wasn't the Whistling Straits site previously an illegal dumpsite strewn with toxic materials and waste?  Seems like its revitalization by Kohler was a boon for environmentalists.

[Phil McDade]

Howard:

My own two cents of speculation: Kohler's Whistling Straits project didn't draw much opposition largely because what he put there was a vast improvement over what was once a dumping site for the military, as you describe. The state DNR (the chief environmental agency) objected to some loss of wetlands on the coast for the WS project, and Kohler/Dye engineered a wetlands "trade" (this in the Bush I era of "no net loss of wetlands" environmental policy) that led to the creation of wetlands around the much-derided par 5 5th at WS. (In fact, Dye has responded to critics of the 5th by arguing the course might not have happened without his willingness to build the 5th around those created wetlands.) There is little doubt that the original WS project -- which abuts some boring farmland once you get away from the cliffs -- was a net improvement to what was once there.

I think two things are different about this project:

-- The local residents have seen the impact of majors on their area. A net plus for the area? One could argue -- yes -- but two PGAs, plus another PGA to come and the craziness of the Ryder Cup coming up at WS have given folks a real taste of enormous crowds that come with majors, and some folks don't like it. I think Kohler views this 5th course as his chance at a U.S. Open site -- a championship he really wants to have.

-- More importantly, from the perspective of locals, is this proposed course's location next to Kohler-Andrae State Park -- a beautiful park with some sand dunes and other environmental features rarely found anymore on the Wisconsin side of the Lake Michigan coast. While not the most revered park in the state park system, it's very highly regarded as a large tract of land with a variety of environmental mini-zones. It's a really cool state park, unique perhaps in our state for the breadth of coast it encompasses: http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/parks/name/kohlerandrae/ I'm certain the local opposition to the proposed course has much to do with its location immediately adjacent to the state park.

I suppose the immediate comparison/contrast might be to the Bandon properties, but I think there are some distinct differences here.

[Tom_Doak]

Judging from the name of the park, is it possible that the Kohler family donated the land for the park years ago?

And now the park's users want to restrict development on the land they didn't give away?

[Howard Riefs]

Phil,

Thanks for your perspective on the two projects. Always value your insight.

[David Lott]

I wonder if this was prompted by Mike Keisers new project?

It a shame Mr. Kohler is stuck in the 1970's and doesn't have the vision to pick someone other than Pete Dye.  The lack of variety (to me) hurts the property.

I agree with this sentiment.

Wisconsin has a significant amount of high end destinations for a fairly short season. It will be interesting to see how these fare over a 20-30 year horizon once the newness/hype has faded and all of the infrastructure and rooms need reinvestment.

Herb is not going to have a problem with keeping the rooms and infrastructure up to date. Nor are the "environmentalists" likely to stop this project. This is not Donald Trump diving into Scotland. It's Hern Kohl (from Kohler, Wisconsin) whose company has been the dominant economic engine of the area for about a century. Herb knows what will fly, and what will not fly. He also can make more things fly than the average developer.

The Kohler area is so lightly populated that the big championships cause minimal inconvenience. They organize it well and the courses are not in the middle of someone's neighborhood.

It's a first rate operation top to bottom. Kohler is a outstanding businessman, and that probably explains the return to Pete Dye. They have developed a mutual trust and understanding. That is valuable.

[Gary Sato]

Joe Passov is reporting the following discontent.


In late March, we reported that serious golf fans were salivating at the prospect of a new Pete Dye/Herb Kohler Wisconsin collaboration along Lake Michigan near the Town of Wilson. Four months later, the reaction of local residents and environmentalists is somewhat different.

Kohler, 75 and Dye, 88, had been eyeing a Kohler-owned, 247-acre parcel of property along Lake Michigan that Dye determined would have four holes along the water. However, a recent town meeting lasted nearly three hours and drew 300 people, many vocally opposed to the project. Seventy people spoke, with only four in favor of the project, Gary D’Amato reported in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Supporters cite job growth, tax base assistance, tourism increases and a willingness to be environmentally sensitive as reasons to go forward with the course. Opponents say the parcel is environmentally significant, with untouched old growth forest, the pristine Black River and shoreline habitat for migratory birds likely to be impacted in a negative way. Increased traffic is another issue for some, while others voiced concern that the development would not meet provisions in the town’s 20-year master plan that were designed to limit impact on environmental corridors.

After the speakers had had their say, the plan commission chose to defer action on the Kohler request for a conditional use permit. The course is far from dead, but the Kohler folks might literally have to go back to the drawing board -- even if Dye is best known for designing in the field.

Development is inevitably a divisive issue. While we’re content to let the process play out, it’s worth noting that if anyone should be given the benefit of the doubt about treating the environment with respect, it’s the Kohler/Dye duo. What they accomplished in the toxic waste cleanup and habitat restoration on the property that became Whistling Straits, site of the 2004, 2010 and 2015 PGA Championships, should be a model for all to follow. It’s so easy for the local pols to jump on the anti-development bandwagon, but if they would look back less than 20 years and see what Kohler and Dye did in transforming a dangerous eyesore that had been the foundation for Whistling Straits, they would see that the argument is far from one-sided.



Read more: http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/pete-dye-herb-kohler-wisconsin-golf-course-expansion#ixzz38PQJkm9E

[Phil McDade]

Kohler gets a pretty key permit for this course from the state DNR:


https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2018/01/17/dnr-approves-wetland-permit-kohlers-golf-course-sheboygan-county-lake-michigan-shoreline/1042613001/


As the story outlines, there is still a long way to go before this project starts turning dirt for a course. Getting an easement from the adjoining state park may prove pretty contentious, from what I've heard.

[PCCraig]

The company says it is using a minimalist design to lessen the impact on natural resources and plans to use less water and nutrients than the typical course.

Is Pete Dye still going to design the course, given Pete's age and how much longer this project might take?

[Phil McDade]

The company says it is using a minimalist design to lessen the impact on natural resources and plans to use less water and nutrients than the typical course.

Is Pete Dye still going to design the course, given Pete's age and how much longer this project might take?

Pat:


I haven't heard or read anything that suggests Dye isn't still involved; I believe there is a tentative routing done for the course. Having said that, I think this project is years (plural) from breaking ground, and one wonders if Dye will be able to work on it when and if it happens.

[Jeff Schley]

I really love WS and what they have created there in the last 20 years is special. As a former Chicagoan, much of their play comes from their off season specials run to get people to drive up from the windy city.  The hotel helps make it a couples trip and with the PGA's and Ryder Cup, it has the reputation.  How much more revenue would a 5th course generate if it is not a championship course?  Are they filling up their tee sheet for all 4 courses now?  If not adding another also ran isn't going to generate the revenue, thus I'm thinking they either build a championship course worthy of a major for men, ladies, champions or it doesn't happen. 

I'd love to know Kohler's finance guys who have ran the numbers on this including the required rate of return for his company, discount back the future cash flows of revenue and compare.  What is Kohler's cost of capital for this project?  Theoretically you go forward with a project if the discounted future cash flows, using the IRR, is greater than zero.  Although there maybe other projects with a higher IRR and other factors with value to the investor such as, prestige, necessary step as part of a larger project, legacy or willable assets for future cash flow to family, etc.

So if I were to advise Mr. Kohler I would want to find out first is this going to be a destination course for major championships?  If so great let's run the numbers as it can be a standalone magnet and draw more attention and previous visitors as a must play.  If it isn't I want to see the utilization of the Irish, Meadow Valley, and perhaps River (although this is definitely the #2 course here).  If the other 3 aren't at full utilization during the high season, is the cost of building another and maintaining it going to generate additional cash flow or simply lower the utilization of the other 3?

Anyway I like Pete Dye and think his variety is not what I would want to play everyday, but a true gentlemen and let him design while he is still with us.

[Phil McDade]

Another legal development in this saga, this time going against Kohler:


https://www.channel3000.com/news/judge-rejects-dnr-permit-for-new-kohler-company-golf-course-1/1060709136


(I didn't link to the original Milwaukee newspaper story as their site has tightened up considerably their pay wall.)

[Tom_Doak]

Another legal development in this saga, this time going against Kohler:


https://www.channel3000.com/news/judge-rejects-dnr-permit-for-new-kohler-company-golf-course-1/1060709136


(I didn't link to the original Milwaukee newspaper story as their site has tightened up considerably their pay wall.)

That's a shame.  It's a beautiful site for golf, and he had the permit in hand.

[Phil McDade]

Tom:


It's long been my view -- watching this somewhat closely for several years -- that the fate of this project would ultimately get decided in the courts, perhaps as high as the state Supreme Court.


Raw politics are part of the equation here. Opponents of the course, I've long believed, were hoping to wait out the term of former Gov. Scott Walker and his more business-friendly appointees at the DNR (state environment agency), and they've accomplished that with the election last fall of a new Democratic governor (who has appointment power over the DNR secretary). In addition, a state Supreme Court seat is up for election this spring, and while ostensibly a non-partisan race, it's devolved into a partisan one (as have several before it). The court is now split 4-3 leaning conservative, and should the Dems/liberals pick up this year's seat and the one in 2020 (not that far down the road, and a possible scenario, given recent statewide election trends), it's not implausible to see this proposed course end up before a state Supreme Court in two+ years that leans more Democratic/liberal, and thus perhaps more skeptical of the proposed course, and favoring the arguments of those opposed to it.


Don't think those who don't want to see this course happen don't know all of the above. There are deep pockets of environmentally friendly groups who I'm guessing are willing to see this fight continue, and they are well aware of the political stakes involved in all of this.


Update: a more detailed story from the Wisc. State Journal (where I used to work): [size=78%]https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/judge-blocks-kohler-golf-course-over-wetland-permit-issued-under/article_ffaa5673-7741-5b6a-bf9e-bc8100d31250.html[/size]