[Jeff Fortson]

...the Bottle hole template replicated more often?  I have seen a few split fairway holes in my time, but none that embody the elements of the 8th at NGLA.  While I understand there is great fascination in replicating the one shot templates of MacDonald and Raynor (and rightfully so), there seems to be a lack of replicating more of the two and three shot templates.  Granted, I know there are plenty Road holes and even some Alps or Punchbowls that are replicated.  I just wish there were more "Bottle" replications.  Is there some inherent difficulty in acquiring the land for the width it might take to build one?  Is there some hidden difficulty in maintaining them?  I'm at a loss because #8 at NGLA is one of, if not THE most, underrated hole in golf, IMHO.

Jeff F.

P.S.:  Before you jump all over me about #10 at Old MacDonald, I've never been to Bandon, so please go easy on me about that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

With all the earth moving equipment today, I've often thought the same thing, and, if a course couldn't duplicate the fortress like green complex, certainly the "bottle neck" centerline bunker complex would seem like a layup.

My opinion ?

I think today's golfer would deem it "unfair", too demanding.

The last two times I played it i drove it in the far centerline bunker and had no viable shot to the green.
I did make a 20 footer for par and a bogey.

In my question about which holes from the same course would you choose to play for the rest of your life, picking a par 3, 4 and 5, the 8th at NGLA was my par 4.

I find it to be a wonderful challenge on the drive, approach and recovery.

And, like you, can't believe that it hasn't been duplicated more often

[Jason Topp]

I am not sure I have ever played a true bottle hole but would be interested in getting Jeff Brauer's take on this because a number of his holes at Wilnderness at Fortune Bay seemed to be bottle holes in concept with natural rock replacing the bunkers.

[Rich Goodale]

Answers.

1.  For one thing it is a goofy hole, probably more endearing the more you play it, but goofy in extremis at first sight.
2.  The design is not a "bottle" but rather a "not bottle."  How many bottles have you seen with a plug 2/3 of the way towards the cork?  It is a centreline bunker hole, of which there are myriad.  That being said, it is one of the best of that genre.

Next?

Rich

[RJ_Daley]

Agreed that there are plenty of centerline variations.  I'm not sure I've played a true bottle as George Bahto's book illustrates, that is NGLA's 8th.  Perhaps the 4th (?) at Blue Mound was once a more accurate version of the 'bottle' prior to shortening the Archipelago of segmented bunkers with  two longer ones and one can see not on the same sweeping across the fairway angle.  (I hope I got that right from memory).

Perhaps, the design is discouraged due to irrigation width and extra rows considerations.  Jeff Brauer, comments please....?

Nice to hear from you Jeff F. 

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Whigham called the 8th a Bottle-neck, and like it or not, it's a sophisticated use of cross bunkers, more so than a set of bunkers completely crossing the middle of a fairway or a set that pinches the fairway like a waistline.  



I think it 'works' better than pinching off the green in Coke bottle fashion.

[Tom_Doak]

It hasn't been replicated often because:

(a)  it's hard to make the tee shot work well with the multiple tees found on modern courses, and
(b)  between the multiple tees and everyone carrying the ball further now, most designers instinctively set up the hole to reward the big carry, so nobody really wants to play into the neck of the bottle.

One of the few attempts I've seen at it is the 16th at Kapalua (Plantation).  But, not many golfers play to the right side of the bottle there, either.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It hasn't been replicated often because:

(a)  it's hard to make the tee shot work well with the multiple tees found on modern courses, and
(b)  between the multiple tees and everyone carrying the ball further now, most designers instinctively set up the hole to reward the big carry, so nobody really wants to play into the neck of the bottle.

Tom Doak,

(b) is interesting because at NGLA almost everybody plays into the narrow necks flanked by one side of the unique centerline bunkers.

Perhaps the existence of only one foot pad for the men's tees, preserving and mandating the same angle of attack for everyone, is a key to the holes success.

Still, i can't see how replicating that arrangement hasn't happened to a meaningful degree in 100 years.

One of the few attempts I've seen at it is the 16th at Kapalua (Plantation).  But, not many golfers play to the right side of the bottle there, either.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Perhaps my closest replica to the bottle concept is no. 9 at the Avocet course at Wild Wing in Myrtle Beach, SC.  It was kind of a pick your poison hole, which also required an approach over a valley of sin, if using the upper fw and having a shorter approach.  The lower portion created a longer approach with a frontal opening. 

BTW, the green cut on the Valley of Sin is long gone, and I don't have any idea what percentage of play aims for the upper fw.  It doesn't really require that long a carry, so I imagine most do.

I always wondered what the advantage of carrying the bottle bunkers was at NGLA.  As near as I recall, the green was pretty hard to hit from either angle, with no real advantage other than distance.

I would say the 1st and 4th at Fortune Bay are similar to bottle holes, with split upper and lower fw, and in both cases, the upper fw having a distance, vision and angle advantage.  The second LZ on the first is also bottle looking.  I will say that if I ever do a two fw, 600 yard long par 5 hole again, the super has requested I do NOT do it on the first hole, since it slows mowing down quickly and makes it hard for them to beat the crowd.....

[Bill_McBride]

Lester George built a good one at Kinloch.  When I get home from a trip I'm on I'll find a diagram and photo on my home computer. 

[Kalen Braley]

Circling Raven #4 is the best bottle hole I've ever seen in person.  It matches pretty closely to the description Jim Kennedy posted.

Driving left leaves one a much shorter approach shot, buy you must fit it in between the bunker and the hazard.

Or you can play out safely to the right to an elevated fairway which leaves you an approach 25-30 yards longer.

Aerial view:




View from the tee showing the elevated right portion of the fairway.

[Tim Gavrich]

Perhaps my closest replica to the bottle concept is no. 9 at the Avocet course at Wild Wing in Myrtle Beach, SC.  It was kind of a pick your poison hole, which also required an approach over a valley of sin, if using the upper fw and having a shorter approach.  The lower portion created a longer approach with a frontal opening. 

BTW, the green cut on the Valley of Sin is long gone, and I don't have any idea what percentage of play aims for the upper fw.  It doesn't really require that long a carry, so I imagine most do.

Jeff--

Interesting analysis of 9 at Wild Wing - Avocet. I've always regarded the choice as being between a wider fairway (right) and a semi-blind approach and a narrower, canted fairway (left) and a pretty much unobstructed view of the green. I think I've basically always elected to play to the left-side fairway, but if I ever was faced with a way back-left pin, I'd probably take the right-side route.

Pawleys Plantation's 4th hole has three centerline fairway bunkers that cause it to play like a Bottle Hole off the tee. The hole bends just the right about to the left such that you can a) lay up short of the bunkers and play it as a three-shot hole, b) hit right of the bunkers but still have hope of leaving a short wedge, or c) take on the narrow left side of the fairway to shave about 30 yards off the length of the hole and hope to get home in two.

That scanned article's description of the Bottle hole assumes that to the player, hitting an iron off the tee followed by what I assume would be a fairway wood to the green probably holds some kind of key to why that sort of hole isn't more prevalent. Golfers just don't lay up off the tee, by and large. Life's too short not to pound driver, man!

[Jeff Fortson]

Good posts!

I think Tim nailed it strategy wise, as did Jeff Brauer.  I always felt that from the back tees at NGLA the long bomb over everything had riskier outcomes than trying to thread it up the left side.  The reason was that the payoff wasn't that huge of an advantage.  Which gets me to my point... the design has held up STRONGLY over time by keeping the strategy intact.  Either thread it up the left with a better view of the putting surface or take the easier way up the right and have give your eyes and mind more doubt on exactly where the target is.  Without the "fortress" green complex, as Pat Mucci mentioned earlier, the tee strategy is virtually lost to the golfer.

Pat and I both have discussed this hole at length before with others on here, but the one thing we never discussed is why it wasn't duplicated more often.  I hope to visit more of your courses over time, Mr. Brauer and Mr. Doak, as I am happy to know that there are some of you guys trying to leave those holes for future generations to contemplate, discuss, and enjoy/get frustrated on.  If one of you or someone reading this could take the time to note legitimate "Bottle" replicas so as anyone interested could seek them out, it would be much appreciated.


Jeff F.

[Jim_Kennedy]

That scanned article's description of the Bottle hole assumes that to the player, hitting an iron off the tee followed by what I assume would be a fairway wood to the green probably holds some kind of key to why that sort of hole isn't more prevalent. Golfers just don't lay up off the tee, by and large. Life's too short not to pound driver, man!

Tim,

I think you should give the article another look. It suggests three ways to play the hole, two of which are 'long' drives.

[Tim Gavrich]

That scanned article's description of the Bottle hole assumes that to the player, hitting an iron off the tee followed by what I assume would be a fairway wood to the green probably holds some kind of key to why that sort of hole isn't more prevalent. Golfers just don't lay up off the tee, by and large. Life's too short not to pound driver, man!

Tim,

I think you should give the article another look. It suggests three ways to play the hole, two of which are 'long' drives.

Jim--

That's true, but the assumption for options A and C is that the player is a "long driver," which is far from certain. It therefore seems to me that B--the layup--is the play for lots of players. So, it becomes an iron-then-wood hole, which is basically the worst thing many golfers who don't know or care much about GCA can say about a hole ("It's such a stupid hole...you've gotta hit a 3 iron and then a 3 wood! Yuck!"). I'm not saying I agree with that sentiment completely (Lester Goerge's "Short Porch" par 5 at Ballyhack is stupendous); I just offered it as an explanation for the relative dearth of similar latter-day holes.

One more point on this: I have a feeling that Bottle holes are much more successful when exposed to the wind. Which is to say, even when you have to lay up off the tee, you'll lay up with different clubs and if it's downwind, the average hitter may become one of the "long drivers" that the article says have a chance to play aggressively in pursuit of an appropriate reward.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
Here's an old diagram of the hole. I don't think it's an iron then wood hole.

[George_Bahto]

I think the narrower, risk fairway works best when that fairway is much higher than the lower, safe wider fairway.

The best example I have ever seen is the 10th hole at Essex County West - now Francis Byrne   - the diagram is in my book

Pat and many others on this board have played that hole, although i would venture to say not many recognized the "narrow upper fairway," let alone had, or have, played their tee-ball up there.

That "fairway is eye lever to the 10th green while the lower fairway is perhaps 15 feet or more lower and playing to the Cape-style green from down there is a bitch. a very difficult drive to the upper fairway - itz got tree-line left and the narrow fairway on at a diagonal



Like Jeff, I see little advantage taking the left fairway at National-8th

[Joe Bausch]

I think the 4th at White Manor is worth presenting in this discussion:



Tee view:



If you play to the narrower left fw, which I think also gives a better angle in:



A look back down the hole from short of the green:



From just over the green:

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat, Jeff, or Tom;

  Would the 14th at GCGC qualify as a Bottle Hole?  14 Oakmont?  15 Llanerch?  

I believe 12 Bethpage Red is an example, as well.

[Mark McKeever]

Is that Doug playing the bottle hole?  Either way, that's a HUGE drive.  I hope he made 3 from there.

Mark

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mark,

  Yes, that's me, but no, that was my third--I drove over the first bunker and caught the rough on top--I think had 137 in, but a funny lie, so I just hacked a 9 iron out to where I could pitch.  Good hole.  The principal's nose feature or centerline bunker feature is something to be avoided.  It's a lot bigger than I thought. 

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