[Bart Bradley]

On a recent return trip to Michigan, I came to realize that Kingsley is a great mixture of bold features with delicate, complex subtle strategies.   I think it takes multiple plays to begin to fully appreciate the course, the options, the use of contour of that course.  Without those gentle layers, I don't think that I'd love the course so much.

So what do you think?  Do you find the strategies at Kingsley subtle?  Is subtlety important?  Does it help to balance the edginess of the land forms and boldness of the design there?  Is subtlety missing at some other places?  Do you all even care?  Have I subtlely lost my mind?

Enjoy,

Bart

[Andy Troeger]

Bart,
One of the challenges with subtlety is finding it, especially when you only play a course once. There are plenty of nuances that take those repeat plays to appreciate. Some courses have lots of this, but I think most have some "hidden" traits.

Its interesting you mention Kingsley because I certainly wouldn't have thought of the course as subtle, generally. As you said, its quite bold! But how that affects decision-making isn't always so easy to figure out. I tend to enjoy courses with big bold features like Kingsley over those where subtlety reigns. I tend to be less of a fan of Ross' designs than most because of that, I think. My favorite Ross courses are those like French Lick which is certainly not subtle!

[Mac Plumart]

Bart...you are spot on!

Kingsley has bold features but subtle nuances.  I was darn glad I got to go around 4 times while we were there, as each time I recognized a lit more of the nuanced side of things.

And Andy, as you discuss, and as my post implies, one play on subtle courses won't do it justice.  Like The Old Course, I studied it a lot prior to playing...so I knew about some of the nuances...but even with that prior study my caddy opened my eyes to a few really subtle and neat things.  These subtley great courses are the ones that grow better over time.

Bart..."Is subtety missing at some places?"  Of course.  But I wonder if most golfers miss most of the subtletly due to lack of understanding and/or too few plays.


EDIT...I leaving my many mistakes on spelling of subtlety because it clearly demonstrates that "I'm not that strong a speller."

[Jud_T]

Bart,

This is a very interesting point.  One of the things I believe that makes places like Kingsley very special and not simply over the top.  Given a wild piece of property, such as Mike was given at Kingsley, it's this subtlety that a great designer coaxes out of the obvious bold features that gives the key extra dimension to the design that keeps folks coming back for more and the members satisfied for years on end.  Having had the great fortune of playing dozens of rounds there, I can confidently say that I'm still uncovering interesting elements beyond the obvious (I'm still trying to figure out how play 2 and 8 as well as 9 from the south tee!).  It is in fact these subtle features, and the proper conditioning necessary to feature them, that may be one of the only things that can keep a course continually interesting for members after a couple hundred rounds IMO.

[Wade Whitehead]

Bart:

I've never been to Kingsley but can tell based on many conversations (including ours) that it's beauty lies in its subtlety.

My favorite golf courses harbor secrets, which are only discovered over time and through changing conditions.

Most golf courses utterly lack this dimension.  They're the same, time after time, and everything is exposed in front of the golfer in a matter of just a shot or two.

WW

[JC Jones]

Bart,

I think you are spot on.  I remember a round a couple years ago with Dan Lucas.  He helped me read a putt on a front pin position on 18, that I just couldn't figure out.  He said it broke right to left.  It ended up breaking left to right, seemingly up the hill.  His only answer to our confusion was this simple quote:

"That's what we call getting DeVries'd"

Many people focus on the macro features at Kingsley but it is the subtle features revealed over many plays that exhibit the course's true greatness.

[Sean Leary]

I have never been there, but isn't this true of most golf courses? Obviously Kingsley is better than most but is it the subtlety matched with the macro that makes it especially great?

[Jackson C]

I have never been there, but isn't this true of most golf courses? Obviously Kingsley is better than most but is it the subtlety matched with the macro that makes it especially great?

"Subtlety matched with macro makes it especially great" is core to Kingsley's greatness in my eyes.

Sean, have you ever played RCD?  I have not yet had the pleasure but it is #1 on my list of must play.
Why?  Clearly it is bold and I assume also subtle.

[Sean Leary]

I have never been there, but isn't this true of most golf courses? Obviously Kingsley is better than most but is it the subtlety matched with the macro that makes it especially great?

"Subtlety matched with macro makes it especially great" is core to Kingsley's greatness in my eyes.

Sean, have you ever played RCD?  I have not yet had the pleasure but it is #1 on my list of must play.
Why?  Clearly it is bold and I assume also subtle.

I have, but only twice. In 2 rounds I could not see a great part of the subtlety that I am sure exists. But the bold is why you go...

[hhuffines]

Bart, you clearly haven't lost your mind-we need more threads like this one!  Other words related to Kingsley are elusive, Ingenious, crafty, and surely Insidious, depending on where one finds his ball.   Kingsley is at the top of my list of courses for return trips, and the sooner the better!

A lot of the subtlety at RCD relies on where you land your ball, particulary on some of the blind tee shots, but that's true of most great links.

[Mac Plumart]

It is in fact these subtle features, and the proper conditioning necessary to feature them, that may be one of the only things that can keep a course continually interesting for members after a couple hundred rounds IMO.

Jud...

This comment needs to be highlighted.  Proper conditioning necessary to feature the subtle nuances is so key.  In fact, with propler conditioning those subtleties are no more.  Correct?

[Ronald Montesano]

EDIT...I leaving my many mistakes on spelling of subtlety because it clearly demonstrates that "I'm not that strong a speller."

Grammar ain't far behind, is it, Mac

Seriously, you do hit the nail on the head with the hammer, the first time around. Nuance is not easy; if it were, everyone could "do" it. And by "do" I mean "know." And by "know" I mean "mean." Do you know what I mean?

Nuance is revealed when a different shot is required. I played hickory last week for the first time with a couple old hickory souls (only shattered one of Tad Moore's clubs) and began to recognize nuances at Ironwood that the aerial game had never presented. It's the difference between walking the roads and driving them..."What do you mean, it's uphill/downhill? I drive it all the time!"

Also, imagine slowing greens down versus speeding them up. Wouldn't the subtleties of the green differ, based on how hard you could roll the rock?

[Mac Plumart]

Great post Ron!!  Aside from being funny, and it is, your "seeing" things by playing different equipment is fascinating.

[Bart Bradley]

Mac:

You are entirely correct that the maintenance meld at Kingsley brings Mike's design to life.  There is such a key interplay between maintenance and design.  I am not sure that I could really understand that in golf design until I started seeing courses that perfectly match the maintenance with the design.  Kingsley is one of those places.  What is so striking to me is that Kingsley is the epitome of BOLD features with subtle strategies....I had always that that subtlety would require subtle features.   Turns out I was wrong.

Really great places could be so much better with some maintenance changes....mowing lines, green speeds....so often on great historic courses the fairways have been narrowed too much and the green speeds don't match the architecture.

I wonder how many times architectural subtlety is lost completely by the maintenance choices.  Architects, how often do your subtle ideas come to life and play the way you envisioned?

Bart

[Peter Pallotta]

Just to say: I think we err in equating a course's subtlety with our own ongoing discoveries.  The two often do go hand-in-hand; but unless we're mechanical/computerized robots playing in a bubble planet of constant/controlled environment, any golf course will reveal to us new facets/elements/challenges/opportunities every time we play. That's not subtle, that's just golf. I'm all for celebrating subtlety, and I'm sure it exists at Kingsley (because so many say so); but before we can celebrate subtlety, we need to experience it; and I think we tend to devalue that experience and cheapen the term if we jump for joy every time we find that a course showed more of itself the 2nd time around.

Peter   

[Mac Plumart]

Peter...it is more than just showing more the second time.  It is continuing to show more on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 50th, 75th, plays.  For that, we should jump for joy, do cart wheels, and travel half way across the planet to play golf on these courses.

And when Bart says the maintenance meld is crucial to bring out the courses potential, he is correct. 

In fact, that reminds me of a post by Jim Urbina.  I was babbling on about how important having a complete team dedicated to achieving greatness in a golf course was...and he concurred.  But it wasn't just the architecture team, it was owner, members, super and his team, architect and his team.  Everyone needs to understand that course and what makes it great and what it need to make it great.

These types of teams, courses, and experiences are what us architectural nut jobs are looking for and attempt to discuss on a daily basis.

IMO.

[Sean_A]

Just so I have a clear idea of subtlety, can folks talk about some of them?  I tried to do a picture thread a while ago to get a better idea of what folks considered to be subtle features, but it was shut down due to the ole you know it when you see deal and it can't be seen in pix. 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

It is a tough thing to put your finger on.  You start with a great piece of property built on sand in a cool weather growing climate, add a great routing, great greens, thoughtful shaping and firm and fast conditions so that one can either use the slopes correctly on fairways and greens or suffer the inevitable consequences.  This may be why so many of the courses we love are built in cool climates and on sand.  It's all the subtle bumps and rolls that you generally only find on a sandy base and the fescue turf that still bounces after a heavy rain that allows you to use these features.  For those who care about more than seaside views, it's why we love links golf.  We can dissect a specific hole and talk about the variety of shots one can play and how missing a foot in one direction or the other can mean vastly different outcomes on fairways and greens as well as subtle breaks beyond the obvious and numerous strategic options, but as Bart says a lot of it comes down to maintenance and climate.  It may well be the routing and shaping details that can coax this elusive subtlety out.  Perhaps it's having the right guys spend months on the ground getting it right, as if the sheep who burrowed in the ancient pre-bunkers were telling them what to do.  Maybe it's something that hasn't yet been programmed into a CAD system. 

[Mike Hogan]

It may well be the routing and shaping details that can coax this elusive subtlety out.  Perhaps it's having the right guys spend months on the ground getting it right, as if the sheep who burrowed in the ancient pre-bunkers were telling them what to do.

Jud,
I think this is right on. Subtlety to me is what you can't see but can feel, it may be seen through bounces or rolls but it is tough for the eye to pick it up. Sometimes slopes and surrounding hide or camouflage the sublety.
I tried to find photos of subtlety if that's possible/ I think this might fit although it not Kingsley Club.



The humps and bumps of the fairway. The overall slope of the fairway toward Ocean. The green appears fairly flat/level until you see a ball bouncing or rolling on it. All very subtle.

[Link Walsh]

Kingsley Club and courses like Pacific Dunes in the pics above (by the way, great pictures) have a common denominator which I think help to accentuate those subtle features- the ground game. 

You can have all the humps and bumps you want, but it doesn't really matter if you can fly it to the hole and stick it. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bart,

Never played Kingsley, but your remark rang a bell in terms of Hidden Creek.

I think Andy Troeger is correct in terms of recognition, although the counter argument may be that recognition lies within the cognitive talent or lack of same within the golfer.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more strongly I feel about the ability to discern.

Some golfers have it, others don't.

Some golfers see it the first time, others after repeat play and others never see it.

Hence recognition may be a skill of varying levels.

I would think that talented architects can recognize and create subtlety......inherently.
That it comes natural to them, as it does to some others.
Still, others can be taught to seek and recognize subtlety, while other unfortunate souls, like TEPaul need to have it pointed out to them by those more gifted, such as Ran, myself, David Moriarty and Tom MacWood

[Bill_McBride]

What I love most in golf is when you can get close to the hole without playing directly at it.   Sometimes that's boldness, sometimes it's subtlety.   Usually you have to look for it. 

[Bart Bradley]

Bill:

You would love Kingsley.  Often the ONLY way to get close to the hole is to play away from it.

Bart

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

You would love Kingsley.  Often the ONLY way to get close to the hole is to play away from it.

Bart

Played several rounds there in 2009.  Loved it a lot!

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